Christians will be punished and are wicked???...

[FreedomStands]

Totally agree, I'll post something more substantial after work. But indeed, the creator can do anything it wishes... It is if we choose to try and understand this that matters...

Thank you so much for taking out some time to read that and write that! Thank you for letting me know that you agree! It makes me feel so happy, thank you again!

What work do you do, if you don't mind my asking? I'm currently not doing too much, so perhaps that is why I can write these long things haha. I apologize for the length but I hope you enjoyed reading my writing so far!

I agree with what you wrote as well, and I'll add that even our understanding or ability to understand comes from that same source of all our experiences.

If you would ever like to correspond with me in private, my email is [email protected] (I'm a big fan of pikachu as well!), and I can discuss with you anything you may be concerned about or wondering about, and of course, everything I say is just my opinion, just stuff that I'm saying for whatever reason, but take from it what you like and use it to your advantage whenever possible for your own benefit and success!

I am one who you can bring your deepest and darkest thoughts and concerns to, and I may be, by the grace of Allah, able to help bring some different perspective or focus on the matter!

Thank you again for taking the time to reply and agreeing with my statements! I look forward to your lengthier reply, but you do not need to feel any obligation or pressure in writing anything long or whatever if you don't feel like it, but if you do, I'm very enthusiastic about reading more of what you might have to say!

[sushi1992]

Thank you so much for taking out some time to read that and write that! Thank you for letting me know that you agree! It makes me feel so happy, thank you again!

What work do you do, if you don't mind my asking? I'm currently not doing too much, so perhaps that is why I can write these long things haha. I apologize for the length but I hope you enjoyed reading my writing so far!

I agree with what you wrote as well, and I'll add that even our understanding or ability to understand comes from that same source of all our experiences.

If you would ever like to correspond with me in private, my email is [email protected] (I'm a big fan of pikachu as well!), and I can discuss with you anything you may be concerned about or wondering about, and of course, everything I say is just my opinion, just stuff that I'm saying for whatever reason, but take from it what you like and use it to your advantage whenever possible for your own benefit and success!

I am one who you can bring your deepest and darkest thoughts and concerns to, and I may be, by the grace of Allah, able to help bring some different perspective or focus on the matter!

Thank you again for taking the time to reply and agreeing with my statements! I look forward to your lengthier reply, but you do not need to feel any obligation or pressure in writing anything long or whatever if you don't feel like it, but if you do, I'm very enthusiastic about reading more of what you might have to say!

Peace Freedom & MoF & Armaniz,

I'm a software engineer, so quite busy in this world.

I can say that the only part I try to comprehend is why would people who pay lip service out of ignorance suffer a painful retribution?

I agree... That ignorance annoys the hell out of me, but people who have been brought up as Christians or Jews or whatever will be taught what the community and parents have taught them (I agree that this isn't right and I bang on about "do you follow your forefathers when you're in error?&quot But, in terms of the trinity, Christians who follow blindly that there is a trinity, or hindus who pray to multiple Gods - as Armantiz's link showed, would God really punish those who worship other gods and not forgive them but be able to forgive rapests murderers etc?

That's why I was saying it is very important to understand what shirk is.. because those who oppress people with rape and take lives with murder, as I see it, are committing shirk - not people who just pray to a "different" God - this is due to their ignorance. And you must question does saying the trinity cause harm to your nafs/self? I think armantiz made a good point where if they say it to cause people to transgress and aggress, then yes, big no no. It's a bit like how I see the fabricators and the followers of these fabricators. Millions are taught hadices are something they must follow and are brainwashed by it. I do not blame the brainwashed but I blame the ones who fabricated in the first place, for they sold God's words for a cheap price.... To gain power and authority to do bad on this world...

I would agree with MoF and armaniz about how saying the trinity is only lip service technically they shouldn't be condemned to anguish for this, but there are 2 important things. In 573, it says that if those from among them "say" that God is a third of 3 then they will incur a painful punishment, not even if they way this to hide the truth knowingly - I would agree if they sought to lie knowingly, and I've heard many a time in the Qur'an where God condemns those who hide what they know. After all, what does kafara really mean? Is it not those who hide the truth? But is it hiding the truth intentionally or unintentionally, that's the question...

[huruf]

Any Idea we have of what God is doing to anybody after death is just that an idea. It is not binding for God nor do we need to have for any purpose whatsoever. It is God's business and what God says it must be those concerned who have to process it as to themselves. We should take care that we are sincere, that we do not say we beieve something we don't but cannot bring up ourselves tio acknowledge that in fact we do not believe at all or to some degreee.

Worrying about the belief of others is of no use for us. Let them take care fo themselves and let God jusge himself. We do not have to do anything about that. And we do not know anything at all to make that kin of judgements.

Salaam

[sushi1992]

Any Idea we have of what God is doing to anybody after death is just that an idea. It is not binding for God nor do we need to have for any purpose whatsoever. It is God's business and what God says it must be those concerned who have to process it as to themselves. We should take care that we are sincere, that we do not say we beieve something we don't but cannot bring up ourselves tio acknowledge that in fact we do not believe at all or to some degreee.

Worrying about the belief of others is of no use for us. Let them take care fo themselves and let God jusge himself. We do not have to do anything about that. And we do not know anything at all to make that kin of judgements.

Salaam

I understand huruf, I simply wanted to get a better understanding of what 572-574 was actually saying that's all. I know I don't have to be concerned about others, however I'd rather get the best understanding to try and warn others of this and ask them to read a similar thing. My question still stands in terms of what TYPE of people are being referred to in those verses...

Peace

[Armanaziz]

I would agree with MoF and armaniz about how saying the trinity is only lip service technically they shouldn't be condemned to anguish for this, but there are 2 important things. In 573, it says that if those from among them "say" that God is a third of 3 then they will incur a painful punishment, not even if they way this to hide the truth knowingly - I would agree if they sought to lie knowingly, and I've heard many a time in the Qur'an where God condemns those who hide what they know. After all, what does kafara really mean? Is it not those who hide the truth? But is it hiding the truth intentionally or unintentionally, that's the question...

Salam Sushi

I would just like to add my 2 cents to your remarks here. Please look-back carefully at 573 which says ?

Those who say, ?Indeed Allah is third of three? certainly repress (faith) ? and there is none of a god except the One God.?

Now, I invite you to do some very preliminary research on the concept of Trinity as believed / hypothesized by most Christians. A quick overview can be found here
http//www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html

Let me now quote from this site

The Bible clearly speaks of God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. But emphasizes that there is only ONE God.

Let?s be honest ? does the site really say ??Indeed Allah is third of three?? No, it doesn?t. What it says is Allah/God is one ? He is manifested in three forms ? the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Per my humble understanding, this claim, too is "incomplete". Allah / God is the originator of everything ? Allah is infinite and by definition nothing can be out of Allah because that will make Allah finite. From another perspective, Allah / God existed on His Own. Then He created everything from within Himself ? He said ?be? and it ?was? ? so everything that we see and know in this universe is a manifestation of God?s will. So technically everything is a manifestation of Allah ? one way or the other. This is the idea clarified in the following verses

2115 And for Allah is the East and the West. So wherever you turn, there is face of Allah. Indeed, Allah is Accommodating , Knowledgeable.
2116 And they said, ?Allah has taken a child .? Exalted be He! No - Whatever is in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him; all are obedient to Him.
2117 Originator of the heavens and the earth - and when He decrees a command, then He only says to it, ?Be? and it would be.
(My personal translation; cross checking recommended.)

Rather than Christian Trinity Theology the Bhagabat Geeta (Hindu Scripture) expression resembles the Quranic description more accurately/completely

Do your duty to the best of your ability without worrying about the results. Perceive that God is present equally in all beings and treat all beings equally..

So, going back to the Christian Trinity ? theology ? it is incomplete in the sense that it recognizes only three manifestations of God, while in reality there are infinite number of manifestations of God ? everything that ever existed is just as much a manifestation of God as Jesus is or the Holy Spirit is. The only speciality of Jesus (or other Messengers) is that they realized and acted upon their Unity with God more clearly and accurately than the rest of us. Thereby, the Christian Trinity ideology does not do full justice to the infiniteness of God/Allah. HOWEVER, the Christian Trinity ideology does not (generally) recognize God as one-third of the three as mentioned in 573. The warning of 573 is specifically issued against the specific perverted group within the broader ?Christian? family who consider God/Allah to be a separate entity amongst three distinct entities that can be called God. This type of ideology ? gives one the impression that if you can somehow please Jesus by establishing a big kingdom that worship him ? you do not need to please God by being a good person ? Jesus would intercede with God on your behalf. That is the kind of belief that inspired the Crusaders or the Nazis. In other words that is the theology that differentiates between God and the Messenger

4150 Indeed those who repress (faith) in Allah and His messengers and they intend that they differentiate between Allah and His messengers and they say, ?We have faith in some and we repress (faith) in others.? and they intend that they take a path between that.
4151 They are the ones ? they are truly the ones who repress (faith) and We have prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).
(My personal translation; cross checking recommended.)

Qur'an invites us to recognize that the Messengers (Be it Jesus or Muhammad) are not distinct from Allah - they are the vehicles of the Word of Allah only. There is no way to please the Messenger - there is only one way - please Allah/God by being obedient to the sense of right and wrong that He has gifted you. You can neither please Jesus by raising war in his name, nor can you please Muhammad by shooting people for drawing cartoon of him - The only way of pleasing the messengers (or rather acting upon the teaching of the messenger) is by obeying Allah - by upholding your conscience and intellect.

So, in a nutshell ? while the Christian Trinity Theology (as generally preached in Christian Churches) is less than accurate from a Quranic perspective ? it is not fair to say the stern warning of verse 573 applies against all Christians who provide lip service to the concept of Trinity. Because the concept of Trinity DOES NOT portray God as ?one-third of the three?.

Hope this helps. May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman

[FreedomStands]

Peace Freedom & MoF & Armaniz,

I'm a software engineer, so quite busy in this world.

I can say that the only part I try to comprehend is why would people who pay lip service out of ignorance suffer a painful retribution?

I agree... That ignorance annoys the hell out of me, but people who have been brought up as Christians or Jews or whatever will be taught what the community and parents have taught them (I agree that this isn't right and I bang on about "do you follow your forefathers when you're in error?&quot But, in terms of the trinity, Christians who follow blindly that there is a trinity, or hindus who pray to multiple Gods - as Armantiz's link showed, would God really punish those who worship other gods and not forgive them but be able to forgive rapests murderers etc?

That's why I was saying it is very important to understand what shirk is.. because those who oppress people with rape and take lives with murder, as I see it, are committing shirk - not people who just pray to a "different" God - this is due to their ignorance. And you must question does saying the trinity cause harm to your nafs/self? I think armantiz made a good point where if they say it to cause people to transgress and aggress, then yes, big no no. It's a bit like how I see the fabricators and the followers of these fabricators. Millions are taught hadices are something they must follow and are brainwashed by it. I do not blame the brainwashed but I blame the ones who fabricated in the first place, for they sold God's words for a cheap price.... To gain power and authority to do bad on this world...

I would agree with MoF and armaniz about how saying the trinity is only lip service technically they shouldn't be condemned to anguish for this, but there are 2 important things. In 573, it says that if those from among them "say" that God is a third of 3 then they will incur a painful punishment, not even if they way this to hide the truth knowingly - I would agree if they sought to lie knowingly, and I've heard many a time in the Qur'an where God condemns those who hide what they know. After all, what does kafara really mean? Is it not those who hide the truth? But is it hiding the truth intentionally or unintentionally, that's the question...

Allah makes the justice system. You are talking about justice, and saying that it sounds unjust to you that they should be punished. If Allah punishes them, who can stop Allah in this matter, regardless of what we deem just or not just?

The Qur'an even shows

1959
but there came after them generations who neglected prayer and were driven by their own desires. These will come face to face with their evil,
Excepted, however, shall be those who repent and attain to faith and do righteous deeds for it is they who will enter paradise and will not be wronged in any way

572
They surely disbelieve who say Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

It calls them kafara right there in the Arabic. You know what happens to kaffirs.

Allah is the one who guides people, they have no excuse but that Allah desires that they should be destroyed, they were "made for the fire". Ibrahim was in a society of idolaters, but was sickened by it, and Allah guided him. Allah likewise has guided so many people away from the evil sayings of the Kaffirs. So the ones who retain their blasphemies, they will be destroyed if Allah chooses to destroy them, they have no excuse, they have brains, Ibrahim loved his dad sincerely, but his dad was an Idolater and Ibrahim couldn't tolerate illogical wrong garbage ideas that made him sick, thus was Allah's choice and will, that Allah should guide Ibrahim even amongst evildoers, and guide Muhammed even amongst evildoers, and so many others, and even today people are guided by Allah among the Hindus, and the Jews, and the Christians away from false concepts and towards Islam, even before this incarnation of Islam, there were those who were Muslims and those who were not, and Allah was the one guiding them all to the right or the wrong, to peace or destruction.

Your sense of justice is what is making you feel pain for them (and Allah of course is responsible for that too), but understand that Allah does whatever he wills, and this was the understanding of Jesus as well

5116-
And when Allah saith O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith Subhanaka! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

Nothing did I tell them beyond what Thou didst bid me `Worship God, my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer.' And I bore witness to what they did as long as I dwelt in their midst; but since Thou hast caused me to die, Thou alone hast been their keeper for Thou art witness unto everything.

If thou cause them to suffer - verily, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them - verily, Thou alone art almighty, truly wise!"

Allah saith This is a day in which their truthfulness profiteth the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure for ever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph.

Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is in them; and He has power over all things.

61
ALL PRAISE is due to God, who has created the heavens and the earth, and brought into being deep darkness as well as light and yet, those who are bent on denying the truth regard other powers as their Sustainer's equals!

---

This too is our religion. We understand that regardless of any sense of justice, regardless of their apparent goodness or real goodness, or their softness and kindness, regardless if they look like pikachu or kittens, Allah is the master and controller of all experience, and can destroy them and terrorize them and torture them horrifically if Allah wills, and if Allah forgives them, Allah alone is the one with all the power/might and knowledge/information.

Do you see?

Regardless of that, there is a way to explain the Trinity that is not really blasphemous, and it seems the ancient and original idea from which it derived may have been based on logical and sensible things which are also true in the Qur'an, and the same goes for things in Hinduism, yet the way people take it and the words they say are misleading and harmful, and even if they weren't misleading or harmful, Allah could punish them and harm them regardless.

Some will even say "we were oppressed" but they are replied to, so no one is allowed excuses, but Allah has created certain people to live in hell, just as Allah has created fish for the water. What has the fish done wrong that it should not be allowed on the land? Allah does whatever Allah wills.

497
When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! -

667
O you who disbelieve! do not urge excuses today; you shall be rewarded only according to what you did.

---

The term used here is kafaru again, the same it called those who say Allah has a son.

If you want a good explanation of the Trinity though and its origin, I can provide that, as it isn't blasphemous really in its original meaning or form but took on a very blasphemous tone after time.

Originally, it was merely saying that Allah is one, that Allah creates all things through his intrinsic power, known in Greek as "Logos" and in Sanskrit as "Vac" which means "command" to "to say" "to command". This was a basic idea in Judaism and Stoicism as well as Hinduism and across the world, that Allah creates by his "word", that is to say "Be" and "it Be" (Koon Fiya Koon), which is described in the Qur'an as well. The Logos was the intrinsic generative power to manifest information out of nothing and "speak" or "command" things into existence. Because Jesus was said to be a "word" sent forth and containing the "word" of God, he was taken to be "God incarnate" by some, and this is where people started to exaggerate and misunderstand, because Jesus was just information, created by Allah, a "word sent forth" meaning a command Allah made to "Be". The stoics of Greece already called the term things like "Son" (pais and huios, which also mean herald of a king, and servant) for the "Logos" or "intrinsic ability of God to command things into existence" was the "first begotten" meaning that God first spoke, the first thing generated by God or done by God. God the "Father" or "Pateer", the term also means "Originator" and "Master", and so Adam is called the "son of God" in the New Testament because he was "directly generated by God". God is called in the Bible the "Father of the heavenly lights/stars" because they were "directly generated by God" and God was also their Master and controller.

Finally, the Holy Spirit, which was made a part of the Trinity officially a little later, referred to God's animating power, the power to give life to all information and move all things and give breath to things, and also to "inspire" which is the connection with Gabriel in Islam. Spirit meant animation generally, what makes a thing move, so this also is a true power of Allah, and also the inspiration comes from Allah as well.

So knowing the real meaning of the Trinity, we can see that it isn't wrong really, it is the misunderstanding and exaggeration and misuse of language that makes it wrong.

God is the Originator (Pateer) of all things, who is the Master of his ability to command things into existence (Logos) and is the animating force (Holy Spirit) behind all information, and is One and Only One.

Mark 1228-
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this 'Hear, O Israel The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Prefer the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

The word often translated as "love" is agapesis or agape, meaning "to prefer" to "turn towards" to "give attention to" to "to give preference over other things" and things like that.

So when it says "God is Love" or "God so loved the world" it is saying "God is preferential attention" and "God turned towards the world and relented towards the world or gave preference towards the world".

The "Son" is a reference to Logos, the power of God, and "Jesus Christ" became synonymous with that term and "The Word", which is the intrinsic creative power of God, which "is God and with God", meaning that it is God's intrinsic power, it is not another God besides God the way people have made it, but is something God always had, the power to create out of nothing. Other than that, God is like nothing at all, not made of any information, but making all information by his power to create.

So thus is the right understanding of the Trinity, that is from history, and easily backed up with evidence and why I can be considered a Christian even as a Muslim and a Hindu and a Jew and whatever else.

As for Hinduism, it is also strictly monotheistic if one looks at what it says in the Hindu texts and Vedic scriptures, but they made idols and images which distract people, even when they were actually commanded in their own writings not to make idols or images and that such leads to darkness as in ignorance.

Here is Allah described in the Bhagavad Gita (you'll see it starts out great and then goes into territory that might be misleading, since Allah is not any information, is not an image but encompassing and controlling all images which are information, but the Vedic literature also does say that as well

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute
Chapter 10, Verse 1.
The Supreme Lord said My dear friend, mighty-armed Arjuna, listen again to My supreme word, which I shall impart to you for your benefit and which will give you great joy.

Chapter 10, Verse 2.
Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages.

Chapter 10, Verse 3.
He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds--he, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins.

Chapter 10, Verse 4-5.
Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from doubt and delusion, forgiveness, truthfulness, self-control and calmness, pleasure and pain, birth, death, fear, fearlessness, nonviolence, equanimity, satisfaction, austerity, charity, fame and infamy are created by Me alone.

Chapter 10, Verse 6.
The seven great sages and before them the four other great sages and the Manus are born out of My mind, and all creatures in these planets descend from them.

Chapter 10, Verse 7.
He who knows in truth this glory and power of Mine engages in unalloyed devotional service; of this there is no doubt.

Chapter 10, Verse 8.
I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.

Chapter 10, Verse 9.
The thoughts of My pure devotees dwell in Me, their lives are surrendered to Me, and they derive great satisfaction and bliss enlightening one another and conversing about Me.

Chapter 10, Verse 10.
To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

Chapter 10, Verse 11.
Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

Chapter 10, Verse 12-13.
Arjuna said You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.

Chapter 10, Verse 14.
O Krsna, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality.

Chapter 10, Verse 15.
Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the universe!

Chapter 10, Verse 16.
Please tell me in detail of Your divine powers by which You pervade all these worlds and abide in them.

Chapter 10, Verse 17.
How should I meditate on You? In what various forms are You to be contemplated, O Blessed Lord?

Chapter 10, Verse 18.
Tell me again in detail, O Janardana , of Your mighty potencies and glories, for I never tire of hearing Your ambrosial words.

Chapter 10, Verse 19.
The Blessed Lord said Yes, I will tell you of My splendorous manifestations, but only of those which are prominent, O Arjuna, for My opulence is limitless.

Chapter 10, Verse 20.
I am the Self, O Gudakesa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings.

Chapter 10, Verse 21.
Of the Adityas I am Visnu, of lights I am the radiant sun, I am Marici of the Maruts, and among the stars I am the moon.

Chapter 10, Verse 22.
Of the Vedas I am the Sama-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the senses I am the mind, and in living beings I am the living force .

Chapter 10, Verse 23.
Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am the Lord of wealth ; of the Vasus I am fire , and of mountains I am Meru.

Chapter 10, Verse 24.
Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Brhaspati, the lord of devotion. Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I am the ocean.

Chapter 10, Verse 25.
Of the great sages I am Bhrgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental om. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names , and of immovable things I am the Himalayas.

Chapter 10, Verse 26.
Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and among sages and demigods I am Narada. Of the singers of the gods I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila.

Chapter 10, Verse 27.
Of horses know Me to be Uccaihsrava, who rose out of the ocean, born of the elixir of immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airavata, and among men I am the monarch.

Chapter 10, Verse 28.
Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of abundant milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of serpents I am Vasuki, the chief.

Chapter 10, Verse 29.
Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, lord of death.

Chapter 10, Verse 30.
Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlada; among subduers I am time; among the beasts I am the lion, and among birds I am Garuda, the feathered carrier of Visnu.

Chapter 10, Verse 31.
Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rama; of fishes I am the shark, and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges.

Chapter 10, Verse 32.
Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth.

Chapter 10, Verse 33.
Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold faces turn everywhere.

Chapter 10, Verse 34.
I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience.

Chapter 10, Verse 35.
Of hymns I am the Brhat-sama sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am the Gayatri verse, sung daily by Brahmanas. Of months I am November and December, and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring.

Chapter 10, Verse 36.
I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong.

Chapter 10, Verse 37.
Of the descendants of Vrsni I am Vasudeva, and of the Pandavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyasa, and among great thinkers I am Usana.

Chapter 10, Verse 38.
Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek victory, I am morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am wisdom.

Chapter 10, Verse 39.
Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being--moving or unmoving--that can exist without Me.

Chapter 10, Verse 40.
O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end to My divine manifestations. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences.

Chapter 10, Verse 41.
Know that all beautiful, glorious, and mighty creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.

Chapter 10, Verse 42.
But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.

---

http//www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-18-62.html
"Relinquishing all ideas of righteousness, surrender unto Me exclusively; I will deliver you from all sinful reactions, do not despair."

---

The Brahma Sutra of Hinduism is
"Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan"
"There is only one God, not the second; not at all, not at all, not in the least bit."

Here are some quotes from the Vedas (These are the Hindu scriptures of knowledge)

Verily God is one
Single, indivisible, supreme reality.

• Atharva Veda 13/4/20

God is the sole sovereign
Of the universe.

• Rig Veda 6/36/4

God is one, unparalleled
Through God's wondrous, mighty
And formidable laws and deeds.

• Rig Veda 8/1/27

There is only One
Who ought to be adored
By the people.

• Atharva Veda 2/2/1

O comrades,
Adore none else but God
Who is supreme bestower of bliss
And thus thou wilt not suffer;
Eulogise God in congregation
And recite praise of God's glory repeatedly

• Sam Veda 242

He is One Brahma
The Creator of the cosmos
Who pervades and protects
And enlightens aft beings
God is One Supreme Entity
Whom sages call by various names
Such as Indra, the glorious
Mitra, the good friend
Varuna, the greatest, the noblest
Agni, the resplendent, the bright
Yama, the dispenser of justice
Matarishwa, the almighty.

• Rig Veda 1/164/46

God, the all-pervasive
Pervades all beings
Within and without.

• Yajur Veda 32/8

God has no image.

• Yajur Veda 32/3

The Gita states that people who are materialistic worship demigods i.e. `gods' besides the True God.

"Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
1

"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
2

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
3

Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."
"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
4

Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."

"na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
5

"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
6

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."
7

"Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names."
Book 1, hymn 164 and verse 46

"Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names."

The Rigveda gives several different attributes to Almighty God. Many of these are mentioned in Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1.

As mentioned earlier this also goes against Svetasvatara Upanishad Chapter 4 verse 19.

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him"

The following verse from the Rigveda Book 8, hymn 1, verse 1 refer to the Unity and Glory of the Supreme Being

"Ma cid anyad vi sansata sakhayo ma rishanyata" "O friends, do not worship anybody but God, the Divine One. Praise God alone."
10

"Devasya samituk parishtutih"
"Verily, great is the glory of the Divine Creator."
11

-The earliest Church Fathers had beliefs identical to mine
-"Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is animation, not attending upon matter (not made of matter), but the maker of material animation and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Master of both sensible and invisible things" (Address to the Greeks 4 ). - Tatian the Syrian
-"I have sufficiently demonstrated that we are not atheists, since we acknowledge one God, unbegotten, eternal, invisible, incapable of being acted upon, incomprehensible, unbounded, who is known only by understanding and reason, who is encompassed by light (knowledge) and beauty and animation and indescribable power, by whom all things, through his command ("Be&quot, have been produced and set in order and are kept in existence" (Plea for the Christians 10 ). - Athenagoras
-"Far removed is the Master of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all animation, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light (knowledge), all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God" (Against Heresies 2133 ). - Irenaeus
-"Being is in God (panentheism). God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists. Being is that which wholly subsists. Nature is the truth of things, or the inner reality of them. According to others, it is the production of what has come to existence; and according to others, again, it is the providence of God, causing the being, and the manner of being, in the things which are produced" (ibid.). - Clement of Alexandria
-"What is God? ?God,? as the Lord says, ?is a spirit (animation).? Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself" (ibid.). - Clement of Alexandria
-"No one can rightly express God wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Master of the Universe. Nor are any parts to be predicated of him. For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form" (Miscellanies 512 ). - Clement of Alexandria
-"Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Master of the Universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind" (Fundamental Doctrines 116 ). - Origen
-"John says in the gospel, ?No one has at any time seen God,? clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no nature to which God is visible, not as if he were indeed visible by nature, and merely escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature, but because he is by nature impossible to be seen" (ibid. 11. - Origen
-"God is simple and of an incomposite and spiritual nature, having neither ears nor organs of speech. A solitary essence and illimitable, he is composed of no numbers and parts" (The Holy Spirit 35 ). - Didymus the Blind

Here are some titles of the One God

Ar-Rahman 1 The All-Compassionate
Ar-Rahim 2 The All-Merciful
Al-Malik 3 The Absolute Ruler
Al-Quddus 4 The Pure One
As-Salam 5 The Source of Peace
Al-Mu'min 6 The Inspirer of Faith
Al-Muhaymin 7 The Guardian
Al-'Aziz 8 The Victorious
Al-Jabbar 9 The Compeller
Al-Mutakabbir 10 The Greatest
Al-Khaliq 11 The Creator
Al-Bari' 12 The Maker of Order
Al-Musawwir 13 The Shaper of Beauty
Al-Ghaffar 14 The Forgiving
Al-Qahhar 15 The Subduer
Al-Wahhab 16 The Giver of All
Ar-Razzaq 17 The Sustainer
Al-Fattah 18 The Opener
Al-'Alim 19 The Knower of All
Al-Qabid 20 The Constrictor
Al-Basit 21 The Reliever
Al-Khafid 22 The Abaser
Ar-Rafi' 23 The Exalter
Al-Mu'izz 24 The Bestower of Honors
Al-Mudhill 25 The Humiliator
As-Sami 26 The Hearer of All
Al-Basir 27 The Seer of All
Al-Hakam 28 The Judge
Al-'Adl 29 The Just
Al-Latif 30 The Subtle One
Al-Khabir 31 The All-Aware
Al-Halim 32 The Forebearing
Al-'Azim 33 The Magnificent
Al-Ghafur 34 The Forgiver and Hider of Faults
Ash-Shakur 35 The Rewarder of Thankfulness
Al-'Ali 36 The Highest
Al-Kabir 37 The Greatest
Al-Hafiz 38 The Preserver
Al-Muqit 39 The Nourisher
Al-Hasib 40 The Accounter
Al-Jalil 41 The Mighty
Al-Karim 42 The Generous
Ar-Raqib 43 The Watchful One
Al-Mujib 44 The Responder to Prayer
Al-Wasi' 45 The All-Comprehending
Al-Hakim 46 The Perfectly Wise
Al-Wadud 47 The Loving One
Al-Maj?d 48 The Majestic One
Al-Ba'ith 49 The Resurrector
Ash-Shahid 50 The Witness
Al-h Haqq 51 The Truth
Al-Wakil 52 The Trustee
Al-Qawi 53 The Possessor of All Strength
Al-Matin 54 The Forceful One
Al-W?li 55 The Governor
Al-Hamid 56 The Praised One
Al-Muhsi 57 The Appraiser
Al-Mubdi 58 The Originator
Al-Mu'id 59 The Restorer
Al-Muhyi 60 The Giver of Life
Al-Mumit 61 The Taker of Life
Al-Hayy 62 The Ever Living One
Al-Qayyum 63 The Self-Existing One
Al-Wajid 64 The Finder
Al-M?jid 65 The Glorious
Al-Wahid 66 The Only One
Al-Ahad 67 The One
As-Samad 68 The Satisfier of All Needs
Al-Qadir 69 The All Powerful
Al-Muqtadir 70 The Creator of All Power
Al-Muqaddim 71 The Expediter
Al-Mu'akhkhir 72 The Delayer
Al-Awwal 73 The First
Al-Akhir 74 The Last
Az-Zahir 75 The Manifest One
Al-Batin 76 The Hidden One
Al-Wal? 77 The Protecting Friend
Al-Muta'ali 78 The Supreme One
Al-Barr 79 The Doer of Good
At-Tawwib 80 The Guide to Repentance
Al-Muntaqim 81 The Avenger
Al-Afu 82 The Forgiver
Ar-Ra'uf 83 The Clement
Malik al-Mulk 84 The Owner of All
Dhul-Jalali
Wal-Ikram 85 The Lord of Majesty and Bounty
Al-Muqsit 86 The Equitable One
Al-Jami 87 The Gatherer
Al-Ghani 88 The Rich One
Al-Mughni 89 The Enricher
Al-Mani' 90 The Preventer of Harm
Ad-Darr 91 The Creator of The Harmful
An-Nafi 92 The Creator of Good
An-Nur 93 The Light
Al-Hadi 94 The Guide
Al-Badi 95 The Originator
Al-Baqi 96 The Everlasting One
Al-Warith 97 The Inheritor of All
Ar-Rashid 98 The Righteous Teacher
As-Sabur 99 The Patient One

From Zoroastrianism

Ahura Mazda means "Wise Lord" these are some of the attributes of God in Zoroastrianism

1.Yazad "Yaz" meaning worthy of being attuned; Praiseworthy
2.Harvesp-Tavaan Almighty (Harvesp means all, absolute, entirely, every)
3.Harvesp-Aagaah All-Knowing
4.Harvesp-Khudaa Lord of All (Khudaa is still how people say God)
5.Abadah Without Beginning
6.Abee-Anjaam Without End
7.Bune-Steeh Root of Creation
8.Fraakhtan-Teh The End of All
9.Jamaga Ancient Cause
10.Parajtarah More Noble
11.Tum-Afeek Most Open (Innocent)
12.Abarvand Separate from All
13.Parvandaah Connected with All
14.An-Aiyaafah Unreachable by anyone
15.Ham-Aiyaafah Who Can Reach All
16.Aadaro Most straightforward; Truest of All
17.Geeraa Who Holds Everyone
18.A-Chem Without Cause (Does not need a reason for existence)
19.Chamanaa Reason of All Reasons
20.Safanaa Creator of Progress
21.Afjaa Creator of Growth
22.Naashaa Who Reaches Everyone Equally
23.Parvaraa Provider
24.Eeyaanah Protector of Creation
25.Aaeen-Aaenah Not Different
26.An-Aaeenah Without Shape
27.Khrosheed-Tum Most Determined
28.Meeno-Tum Most Invisible
29.Vaasnaa Omnipresent
30.Harvastum Most Complete
31.Hu-Sepaas Worthy of Thanksgiving
32.Har-Hameed Completely Good Natured
33.Har-Nek-Fareh Completely Good Noble Aura
34.Besh-Tarnaa Remover of Suffering
35.Taroneesh Mysterious
36.An-Aoshak Immortal
37.Farsak Grantor of Wishes
38.Pajoh-Dahad Creator of Noble Nature
39.Khvaafar Generous with Justice
40.Afakhsheeaaeaa Grantor of Generosity
41.Abarjaa Most Abundant Provider
42.A-Satoh Who Does Not Get Angry
43.Rakhoh Independent; Without Worry
44.Varoon Protector from Evil
45.A-Farefah Who Does Not Deceive
46.Be-Farefah Who Cannot Be Deceived
47.A-Duee Not two ("A" means not and duee means two)
48.Kaame-Rad Lord of Wishes
49.Farmaan-Kaam Wish Is His Command
50.Aokh-Tan Without Body
51.A-Faremosh Who Does Not Forget
52.Hamaarnaa Keeper of Accounts
53.Sanaaeaa Worthy of Knowing; All Knowing
54.A-Tars Fearless
55.A-Beesh Without Suffering
56.Afraajdum Most High
57.Ham-Chun Always the Same
58.Meeno-Steeh-Gar Creator of the Universe Invisibly
59.A-Meenogar Creator of the Unseen/Invisible things
60.Meeno-Nahab Hidden in Invisibility

61.Aadar-Baad-Gar Who Changes Fire Into Air
62.Aadar-Nam-Gar Who Changes Fire Into Water
63.Baad-Aadar-Gar Who Changes Air Into Fire
64.Baad-Nam-Gar Who Changes Air Into Water
65.Baad-Gel-Gar Who Changes Air Into Dust
66.Baad-Gerd-Tum Who Changes Air Into Wind
67.Aadar-Keebreet-Tum Who Changes Fire Into Jewels
68.Baad-Garjaae Who Creates Air In All Places
69.Aab-Tum Creator of Much Water
70.Gel-Aadar-Gar Who Changes Dust Into Fire
71.Gel-Vaad-Gar Who Changes Dust Into Air
72.Gel-Nam-Gar Who Changes Dust Into Water
73.Gar-Gar Creator of Powers
74.Gar-O-Gar (Fulfiller of Wishes) *
75.Gar-Aa-Gar (Creator of Mankind) *
76.Gar-Aa-Gar-Gar (Creator of All Things) *
77.A-Gar-Aa-Gar (Creator of Elements) *
78.A-Gar-Aa-Gar-Gar (Creator of Stars) *

79.A-Gumaan Without Doubt
80.A-Jamaan Timeless
81.A-Khuaan Sleepless
82.Aamasht Always Alert
83.Fashutanaa Always Guarding & Vigilant (Creator of Progress)
84.Padmaanee Keeper of Limits
85.Feerozgar Victorious
86.Khudaavand God (Khuda) of Creation
87.Ahur-Mazd Wise Lord
88.Abreen-Kohun-Tavaan Most Capable of Preserving Originality of Creations
89.Abreen-No-Tavaan Most Capable of Creating New Creations
90.Vaspaan Who Can Reach All Creations
91.Vaspaar Who Can Provide Everything
92.Khaavar Generous
93.Ahu Lord of Existence
94.Avakhseedaar Forgiver
95.Daadaar Creator of Justice
96.Rayomand Full of Brightness
97.Khorehomand Full of Aura, Light (Knowledge, Enlightenment, Brightness)
98.Daavar Giver of True Justice
99.Kerfegar Lord of Good Works
100.Bokhtaar Giver of Progress
101.Frash-Gar The one who freshens and refreshes (makes fresh, ressurects)

The following are some names of Shiva which is a title of God said to mean "Purest" or considered the "Auspicious One"
1 Aashutosh One Who Fulfills Wishes Instantly
2 Aja Unborn
3 Akshayaguna God With Limitless Attributes
4 Anagha Without Any Fault
5 Anantadrishti Of Infinite Vision
6 Augadh One Who Revels All The Time
7 Avyayaprabhu Imperishable Lord
8 Bhairav Lord Of Terror
9 Bhalanetra One Who Has Sees what is in the mind
10 Bholenath Kind Hearted Lord
11 Bhooteshwara Lord Of Ghosts And Evil Beings
12 Bhudeva Lord Of The Earth
13 Bhutapala Protector Of The Ghosts
14 Chandrapal Master Of The Moon
15 Chandraprakash One Who Has Moon As A Crest
16 Dayalu Compassionate
17 Devadeva Lord Of The Lords
18 Dhanadeepa Lord Of Wealth
19 Dhyanadeep Focal point Of Meditation And Concentration
20 Dhyutidhara Lord Of Brilliance
21 Digambara Without Any Needs
22 Durjaneeya Difficult To Be Known
23 Durjaya Unvanquished
24 Gangadhara Lord Of River Ganga

26 Gunagrahin Creator, Maintainer, Destroyer (the 3 gunas)
27 Gurudeva Master Of All
28 Hara Remover Of Sins
29 Jagadisha Master Of The Universe
30 Jaradhishamana Redeemer From Afflictions

32 Kailas One Who Bestows Peace
33 Kailashadhipati Lord Of Mount Kailash
34 Kailashnath Master Of Mount Kailash
35 Kamalakshana Lotus-Eyed Lord
36 Kantha Ever-Radiant
37 Kapalin One Who controls death

41 Lingadhyaksha Lord Of The Lingas
42 Lingaraja King Of The Lingas
43 Lokankara Creator Of The Three Worlds
44 Lokapal One Who Takes Care Of The World
45 Mahabuddhi Extremely Intelligent
46 Mahadeva Greatest God
47 Mahakala Lord Of All Times
48 Mahamaya Of Great Illusions
49 Mahamrityunjaya Overcomer Of Death
50 Mahanidhi Great Storehouse
51 Mahashaktimaya One Who Has Boundless Energies
52 Mahayogi Greatest Of All Connections
53 Mahesha Supreme Lord
54 Maheshwara The Greatest Ruler of All

56 Nataraja King Of The Art Of Dancing

58 Nityasundara Ever Beautiful

60 Omkara Creator Of OM
61 Palanhaar One Who Protects Everyone
62 Parameshwara First Among All authorities
63 Paramjyoti Greatest Splendour
64 Pashupati Lord Of All Living Beings

66 Pranava Originator Of The Syllable Of OM

68 Priyadarshana Of Loving Vision
69 Pushkara One Who Gives Nourishment

72 Rudra The Terrible

74 Sadashiva Eternal God
75 Sanatana Eternal Lord
76 Sarvacharya Preceptor Of All
77 Sarvashiva Always Pure
78 Sarvatapana Scorcher Of Any
79 Sarvayoni Source Of Everything
80 Sarveshwara Lord Of All authorities
81 Shambhu One Who Bestows Prosperity
82 Shankara One Who Gives Happiness
83 Shiva Always Pure

86 Shrutiprakasha Illuminator Of The Vedas
87 Shuddhavigraha One Who Has A Purest form
88 Skandaguru Preceptor Of Skanda
89 Someshwara Lord Of All Powers
90 Sukhada Bestower Of Happiness
91 Suprita Well Pleased
92 Suragana Having Celestials Under Power
93 Sureshwara Lord Of All Shining Ones

95 Tejaswani One Who Spreads Illumination

97 Trilokpati Master Of All The Three Worlds

101 Vachaspati Lord Of Speech

103 Varada Granter Of Boons
104 Vedakarta Originator Of The Vedas
105 Veerabhadra Supreme Lord Of The Nether World

107 Vishveshwara Lord Of The Universe

The following are some names of Vishnu which is a title of God refering to God's active all pervasive work through all reality

Nama 1 vishvam / a) Universe or Cause of Universe b) One who is full in all respects. Om visvaya namah.

2. Vishnu - a) One who permeates everything, is inside every sentient and non-sentient being. b) One who surrounds everything. Om vishnave namah.

3 vashatkara / One who controls and directs (not merely pervades).
4 bhuta-bhavya-bhavat-prabhu The Master of all things past, future, and present. Nirukti - trikAla vartinAm seshi - The Lord of all things that exist in the past, present, and future.

5 bhuta-krit / The creator of all beings.

6 bhuta-bhrt / The supporter of all things. Bhutani bibharti iti bhuta-bhrt - One who supports all. (seems to be further elaborated by namas 8 and 9)

7 bhavah / He who exists with all the splendor. He who exists always, independent of anything else.
8 bhutatma / The AtmA or soul of all beings - sarvesham bhutanam atma

9 bhuta-bhavanah / One who nourishes and nurtures all beings that He created.

10 Putatma / The Pure Self - One who is untainted by the effects of karma - good or bad. Puta Atma yasya sa putatma - One who has the pure Atma is pUtAtmA.

11 paramatma / The Supreme Soul - for whom there is no other guiding or superior soul

12 muktanam parama gatih / One who is the ultimate goal for all muktas or Released or Liberated Souls.

13 avyayah / a) One who does not send back anyone who has reached Him (to the cycle of birth and rebirth .(Sri Bhattar) b) Indestructible (Sri Sankara)

14 purushah / a) One who bestows on the Muktas the enjoyment of the Bliss of Himself in plenty.- puru sanoti iti purushah. b) One who is reclining in this body - puri sete iti purushah. c) One who existed before anything else existed - purA AsIt iti purushah. d) One who completes and fulfills existence everywhere - pUrayati iti purushah

15 sakshi / One who directly witnesses everything .as it is. , The All-Knower, The Omniscient

16kshetrajnah / One who knows, and can lead, the muktas to the exact place where the muktas will get their sought-after Supreme Bliss.

17 akshara / One whose greatness never diminishes over time in spite of being enjoyed by the miktas constantly. na ksharati iti aksharah .

18. yogah / One Who alone is the definite and unobstructed means to salvation. The word yoga is derived from the word yujyate which means "with whose help the goal is attained".

19. yogavitam neta / One who leads those who practice yoga until they reach their Goal.

20. pradhana purusha Isvarah / One who is the Lord of Primordial Matter as well as the Jivas.

21. narasimha vapuh / One who possesses a body of man and lion combined.

22. sriman / One with a lovely form.

23. kesavah / One with lovely locks of hair.

24. purushottamah / The Supreme amongst the purushas (i.e., individualsouls).

25. sarvah / (sa as in sanatana) One who is all - the cause of creation and destruction of all things.

26. sharvah / (sa as in Shiva) The Remover of all sins.

27. shivah / One who confers auspiciousness. subha avahasca sivah - One who bestows auspiciousness on all.

28. sthanuh / One who is .firm in His benefits and anugraha to the devotees.

29. bhutadih / a) One who is eagerly sought after by all beings. b) The source or cause of all beings. c) The very source of the panca bhutas.

30. nidhiravyayah / The inexhaustible treasure.

31. sambhavah / (Though like a Hidden Treasure), One who manifests Himself at will to those who sincerely seek Him. He manifests Himself at any place and at any time and in any form (e.g., nrsimha, matsya, kurma, etc.).

32. bhavanah / (Having manifested thus), One who regenerates all by dispelling all their evils.

33. bharta / Supporter.

34. prabhavah / One whose birth is of a sublime nature.

35. prabhuh / He who is all powerful.

36. Isvarah / a) One who has the supreme power of control over all beings. b) One who has the ability to do anything without the help of any other beings or things

THE ONE THOUSAND NAMES OF LORD VISHNU TRANSLATIONS AND MEANINGS.

1. vishvam God who is the ultimate reality, the virat-purusha

2. vishnuh God who pervades everywhere

3. vashatkaarah God who is invoked for oblations

4. bhoota-bhavya-bhavat-prabhuh The Lord of past, present and future

5. bhoota-krit The creator of all creatures

6. bhoota-bhrit God who nourishes all creatures

7. bhaavo God who animates all things
   bhootaatmaa The sustainer of the existence of all beings

8. bhoota-bhaavanah The cause of the growth and birth of all creatures

9. pootaatmaa God with an extremely pure essence

10. paramaatmaa The ultimate and ever existing one

11. muktaanaam paramaa gatih The final goal and liberation

12. avyayah The one who cant be harmed

13. purushah God who dwells in the city of nine gates

14. saakshee The witness

15. kshetrajnah The knower of the field

16. akshara Indestructible
    1 yogah The Unified One

17. yoga-vidaam netaa The one who teaches the path of unification

18. pradhaana-purusheshvarah Lord of pradhaana and purusha

19. purushottamah The Supreme Controller

20. sarvah God who everything is made from

21. sharvas Auspicious one

22. shivah The pure
    2 sthaanuh The pillar, the immovable truth

23. bhootaadih The cause of the five great elements

24. nidhir-avyayah The imperishable treasure

25. bhaavanah God who gives everything to his devotees

26. bhartaa God who governs the entire living world

27. prabhavah The originator of the five great elements

28. prabhuh The Almighty Lord

29. eeshvarah God who can do anything without any help

30. svayambhooh God who manifests things from nothing.
    3 shambhuh God who brings auspiciousness

31. anaadi-nidhanah God without origin or end

32. dhaataa God who supports all fields of experience

33. vidhaataa The dispenser of fruits of action

34. dhaaturuttamah The subtlest one

35. aprameyah God who cannot be perceived

36. hrisheekeshah The Lord of the senses

37. amaraprabhuh The Lord of the devas

38. vishvakarmaa The creator of the universe

39. manuh God who has manifested as the Vedic mantras

40. tvashtaa God who makes huge things small

41. sthavishtah The supremely large

42. sthaviro dhruvah The ancient one who is an immovable infinite

43. agraahyah God who is not perceived through direct senses

44. shaashvatah God who always remains the same

45. pratardanah The Supreme destroyer

46. prabhootas Ever-full

47. trikakub-dhaama The support of the three quarters

48. pavitram God who gives purity to the heart

49. mangalam param The Supreme auspiciousness

50. eeshanah The controller of the five great elements

51. praanadah God who gives life

52. praano God who continuously lives

53. jyeshthah Older than all
    6 shreshthah The most glorious

54. prajaapatih The Lord of all creatures

55. hiranyagarbhah God who dwells in the world

56. eeshvarah The contoller

57. vikramee God who is full of prowess

58. medhaavee Supremely intelligent

59. kramah All-pervading

60. anuttamah Incomparably great

61. duraadharshah God who cannot be attacked successfully

62. kritajnah God who knows all that is

63. kritih God who rewards all our actions

64. aatmavaan The animation in all beings

65. sureshah The Lord of the powers

66. sharanam The refuge

67. sharma God who is infinite bliss
    8 visva-retaah The originator of the universe

68. prajaa-bhavah God from whom all praja comes

69. ahah God who controls the nature of time

70. samvatsarah God from whom the concept of time comes

71. pratyayah God who provides all knowledge

72. sarvadarshanah All-seeing

73. ajah Unborn

74. sarveshvarah Controller of all

75. siddhah The most famous
    9 siddhih God who gives moksha

76. sarvaadih The beginning of all

77. achyutah Infallible

78. vrishaakapih God who lifts the world to dharma

79. ameyaatmaa God who manifests infinite varieties

80. sarva-yoga-vinissritah God who is free from all attachments

81. vasuh The support of all elements

82. vasumanaah God whose mind is supremely pure

83. satyah The truth

84. samaatmaa God who is the same in all
    10 sammitah God who has been accepted by authorities

85. samah Equalizer

86. amoghah Ever useful

87. pundareekaakshah God who dwells in the heart

88. vrishakarmaa God whose every act is righteous

89. vrishaakritih The form of dharma

90. rudrah God who makes all people weep, The terrifier

91. babhrur God who rules over all the worlds

92. vishvayonih The originator and holder of the universe
    11 shuchi-shravaah God who has beautiful, sacred names

93. amritah Immortal

94. shaashvatah-sthaanur Permanent and immovable

95. varaaroho The most glorious destination

96. mahaatapaah God of great tapas

97. sarvagah All-pervading

98. sarvavid-bhaanuh All-knowing and effulgent

99. vishvaksenah God against whom no army can stand against

100. janaardanah God who gives joy to good people

12 vedavid The knower of the Vedas
129) avyangah Without imperfections

132. kavih The seer

133. lokaadhyakshah God who presides over all lokas

134. suraadhyaksho God who presides over all devas

135. dharmaadhyakshah God who presides over dharma

136. bhraajishnur Self-effulgent consciousness

137. bhojanam God who is the sense-objects

138. bhoktaa The enjoyer

139. sahishnuh God who can wait patiently

140. anaghah Sinless

141. vijayah Victorious
     14 jetaa Ever-successful

142. amoghah God whose acts are for a great purpose

143. shuchih God who is spotlessly clean

144. oorjitah God who has infinite vitality

15 samgrahah God who holds everything together
159) sargah God who creates the world from nothing
160) dhritaatmaa Self Sufficient
161) niyamo The appointing authority
162) yamah The administrator
163) vedyah That which is to be known
164) vaidyah The Supreme doctor
165) sadaa-yogee Always in yoga
166) veerahaa God who destroys the mighty heroes
167) maadhavo The Lord of all knowledge

169. ateendriyo Beyond the sense organs

170. mahaamayo The Supreme Master of all Maayaa

171. mahotsaaho The great enthusiast

172. mahaabalah God who has supreme strength

173. mahaabuddhir God who has supreme intelligence

174. mahaa-veeryah The supreme essence

175. mahaa-shaktih All-powerful

176. mahaa-dyutih Greatly luminous

177. anirdeshya-vapuh God whose form is indescribable
     17 shreemaan God who is always courted by glories

178. ameyaatmaa God whose essence is immeasurable

179. mahaadri-dhrik God who supports the great mountain

180. sataam gatih The goal for all virtuous people

181. aniruddhah God who cannot be obstructed

182. suraanando God who gives out happiness

18 govidaam-patih The Lord of all men of wisdom
189) mareechih Effulgence
190) damanah God who controls rakshasas
197) prajaapatih God from whom all creatures emerge
19 amrityuh God who knows no death
199) sarva-drik The seer of everything
200) simhah God who destroys
201) sandhaataa The regulator

203. sthirah Steady

204. durmarshanah God who cannot be vanquished

205. shaastaa God who rules over the universe

206. visrutaatmaa God who is called atma in the Vedas
     20 suraarihaa Destroyer of the enemies

207. guruh The teacher

208. gurutamah The greatest teacher

209. dhaama The goal

210. satyah The Truth

211. satya-paraakramah Dynamic Truth

212. animishah God who remains constantly aware; ever knowing

213. vaachaspatir-udaara-dheeh God who is eloquent in championing the Supreme law of life; God with a large-hearted intelligence
     21 agraneeh God who guides us to the peak

214. graamaneeh God who leads the flock

215. shreemaan The possessor of light, effulgence, glory

216. nyaayah Justice

217. netaa The leader

218. sameeranah God who sufficiently administers all movements of all living creatures

219. vishvaatmaa The animation of the universe

22 aavartanah The unseen dynamism

231. sam-pramardanah God who persecutes evil men

232. ahassamvartakah God who thrills the day and makes it function vigorously

233. dharaneedharah God who supports the earth

234. suprasaadah Fully satisfied, never needing

235. prasanaatmaa Ever pure and all-blissful self
     23 vishva-dhrik Supporter of the world

236. satkartaa God who adores good and wise people

237. satkritah God who is adored by all good people

238. saadhur God who operates by the righteous codes

239. jahnuh Leader of men

240. naaraayanah God who resides on the waters

241. narah The guide

242. asankhyeyah God who has numberlesss names and attributes

243. vishishtah God who transcends all in glory

244. shishta-krit The law-maker

245. shuchih God who is real

246. siddhasankalpah God whose will is always done

247. siddhidah The giver of benedictions

248. siddhisaadhanah The power behind our sadhana

249. vrishaahee Controller of all actions

250. vrishabhah God who showers all dharmas

251. vardhanah The nurturer and nourisher

252. viviktah Separate from everything, requiring nothing to exist, free of needs

253. shruti-saagarah The ocean for all scripture

254. durdurdharah God who cannot be known by great yogis

255. vaagmee God who is eloquent in speech

256. vasudah God who gives all wealth

257. vasuh God who is Wealth

258. naika-roopo God who has unlimited attributes

259. brihad-roopah Vast, of infinite dimensions

260. prakaashanah God who illuminates

261. ojas-tejo-dyutidharah The possessor of vitality, effulgence and beauty

262. prakaashaatmaa The effulgent self

263. prataapanah The One who warms
     27 riddhah Full of prosperity

264. spashtaaksharo One who is indicated by OM

265. mantrah The nature of the Vedic mantras

266. bhaanuh Self-effulgent

267. sureshvarah God of extreme charity

268. aushadham Medicine
     28 jagatas-setuh A bridge across the material energy

269. satya-dharma-paraakramah One who champions heroically for truth and righteousness

270. bhoota-bhavya-bhavan-naathah The Lord of past, present and future

271. pavanah The God that fills the universe

272. paavanah God who gives life-sustaining power to air

273. kaamahaa God who destroys all desires

274. kaamakrit God who fulfills all desires

275. kaantah God who is of enchanting form

276. kaamah The beloved
     29 kaamapradah God who supplies desired objects

277. prabhuh The Lord

278. yugaadi-krit The creator of the yugas

279. yugaavartah The law behind time

280. naikamaayah God whose attributes are endless and varied

281. adrishyah Imperceptible

282. sahasrajit God who vanquishes thousands

283. anantajit Ever-victorious
     30 ishtah God who is invoked through Vedic rituals

284. visishtah The noblest and most sacred

285. sishteshtah The greatest beloved

286. krodhahaa God who destroys anger

287. krodhakrit-kartaa God who generates anger against the lower tendency

288. visvabaahuh God whose influence is in everything

289. maheedharah The support of the earth
     31 achyutah God who undergoes no changes

290. prathitah God who exists pervading all

291. praanadah God who gives prana

292. adhishthaanam The substratum of the entire universe

293. apramattah He who never makes a wrong judgement 326) pratishthitah He who has no cause

32 skanda-dharah Upholder of withering righteousness
329) dhuryah Who carries out everything with ease
330) varadah God who fulfills boons

331. vaayuvaahanah Controller of winds

332. brihat-bhaanuh God who illumines the world with the rays of the sun and moon

333. aadidevah The primary source of everything

334. purandarah Destroyer of cities

335. ashokah God who has no sorrow

336. taaranah God who enables others to cross
     33 taarah God who saves

337. shoorah The valiant

338. janeshvarah The Lord of the people

339. anukoolah Well-wisher of everyone

34 padmagarbhah God who is being meditated upon in the lotus of the heart
349) shareerabhrit God who sustains all bodies
350) maharddhi One who has great prosperity

352. Vriddhaatmaa The ancient self

353. atulah Incomparable

354. bheemah The terrible

355. havirharih The receiver of all oblation

356. sarva-lakshana-lakshanyah Known through all proofs

357. samitinjayah Ever-victorious

358. viksharah Imperishable

359. maargah The path

360. hetuh The cause

36 sahah All-enduring
369) maheedharah The bearer of the earth

371. vegavaan God who is swift

372. amitaashanah Of endless appetite

373. udbhavah The originator

374. kshobhanah The agitator

375. devah God who revels

376. shreegarbhah God in whom are all glories

377. parameshvarah The Supreme Lord
     37 karanam The instrument

378. kaaranam The cause

379. kartaa The doer

380. vikartaa Creator of the endless varieties that make up the universe

381. gahanah The unknowable

382. guhah God who dwells in the cave of the heart

383. vyavasaayah Resolute

384. vyavasthaanah The substratum

385. samsthaanah The ultimate authority

386. sthaanadah God who confers the right abode
     38 dhruvah The changeless in the midst of changes

387. paramaspashtah The extremely vivid

388. tushtah One who is contented with a very simple offering

389. pushtah One who is ever-full

390. raamah One who is most beautiful

391. viraamah The abode of perfect-rest

392. virajo Passionless

393. maargah The path
     39 neyah The guide

394. nayah One who leads

395. anayah One who has no leader

396. veerah The valiant

397. shaktimataam-shresthah The best among the powerful

398. vaikunthah One who prevents men from straying on wrong paths

399. purushah One who dwells in all bodies

400. praanah Life
     40 praanadah Giver of life

401. hiranyagarbhah The creator

402. shatrughnah The destroyer of enemies

403. vyaaptah The pervader

404. adhokshajah One whose vitality never flows downwards

405. sudarshanah God whose meeting is auspicious
     41 kaalah God who judges and punishes beings

406. parameshthee One who is readily available for experience within the heart

407. parigrahah The receiver

408. ugrah The terrible

409. dakshah The smart

410. vishraamah The resting place

411. vishva-dakshinah The most skilful and efficient

412. sthaavarah-sthaanuh The firm and motionless
     42 pramaanam The proof

413. arthah God who is worshiped by all

414. mahaakoshah God who has got around him great sheaths

415. mahaabhogah God who is of the nature of enjoyment

416. mahaadhanah God who is supremely rich

417. anirvinnah God who has no discontent

418. sthavishthah One who is supremely huge

419. a-bhooh One who has no birth

43 dharma-yoopah The post to which all dharma is tied
439) mahaa-makhah The great sacrificer

442. kshamah God who is supremely efficient in all undertakings

443. kshaamah God who ever remains without any scarcity

444. sameehanah One whose desires are auspicious

445. ijyah God who is fit to be invoked through offerings

446. mahejyah One who is to be most worshiped

447. satram Protector of the good

448. sataam-gatih Refuge of the good

449. sarvadarshee All-knower

450. vimuktaatmaa The ever-liberated self

451. sarvajno Omniscient

452. jnaanamuttamam The Supreme Knowledge

453. sookshmah The subtlest
     45 sughoshah Of auspicious sound

454. sukhadah Giver of happiness

455. suhrit Friend of all creatures

456. manoharah The stealer of the mind

457. vidaaranah One who splits asunder

458. svaapanah One who puts people to sleep

459. svavashah God who has everything under His control

460. vyaapee All-pervading

461. naikakarmakrit One who does many actions

462. vatsarah The abode

463. vatsalah The supremely affectionate

464. dhaneshvarah The Lord of wealth

465. dharmagub One who protects religion

466. dharmee The supporter of religion
     47 sat existence

467. aksharam Imperishable

468. vidhaataa All supporter

469. kritalakshanah One with renowned qualities and attributes

470. gabhastinemih The hub of the universal wheel

471. bhoota-maheshvarah The great lord of beings

472. aadidevah The first deity

473. mahaadevah The great deity

474. deveshah The Lord of all devas

475. devabhrit-guruh Advisor of Indra

476. uttarah God who lifts us from the ocean of samsara

477. gopatih The shepherd

478. goptaa The protector

479. jnaanagamyah One who is experienced through pure knowledge
     49 puraatanah God who was even before time

480. shareera-bhootabhrit One who nourishes the nature from which the bodies came

481. bhoktaa The enjoyer

482. kapeendrah Lord of the monkeys

483. bhooridakshinah God who gives away large gifts

484. purujit One who has conquered numerous enemies

485. purusattamah The greatest of the great
     50 vinayah God who humiliates those who are unrighteous

486. jayah The victorious

487. satyasandhah Of truthful resolution

488. vinayitaa-saakshee The witness of modesty <b

[huruf]

I understand huruf, I simply wanted to get a better understanding of what 572-574 was actually saying that's all. I know I don't have to be concerned about others, however I'd rather get the best understanding to try and warn others of this and ask them to read a similar thing. My question still stands in terms of what TYPE of people are being referred to in those verses...

Peace

As I said in a previous message, the problem in your question is that you speak about christians and apply those ayas you mention to them, and as if you were speaking about christians of today and of any age. But looking at the wording of those ayas, you assumption is not warranted. For those things we should stick exactly to what is said.

As I said previously there have been many, many varietieis of Christ worship, of trinities in the history of religions, to suppose that that refer to any christian, again is unwarranted. We have stick to the terms which are in the ayas, and not because we think those are christians make our mental picture the tarjet of God's words.

For one, as I said, again, to say allah is christ is not the same as to say christ is allah. It is not.

The trinity of christians, as far as I can judge, is an intelectual play, which nobody understands, be3cause plainly it iis a mere formulation which represents nothing, unless again, we are speaking ins epiritual terms of civinity manifestation. That being so, the trinity mention in those ayas does not aply to the main christianity of today that I know of. It does nto apply to catholics.

So to whom does that appply, those exact words of Qur'an? Not to christias as such all comprised.

If what you mean is those, those very persons that are described in the Qur'an in thsoe words, for me after many centuries I do not know who that people might be. Therefore better stick to the formulation and whoever fits it anser that, but not the blnaket question about Christians, that is not grounded.

As to those to whom the ayas refer, they should know. IOr if we know of anybody like that we might think ?oh, those!

I do not know, it might fit certain zionnist christians or pop christians of today, I don't know, but most certianly not all christians as such, not certainly the bulk of them.

On the othe rhand if one really bilieves that there are people who ACTUALLY bilieve in three gods, I mean believe, not just say without really having any conviction behind, of course they would be so misguided that they would fin it very difficult to carry a real moral life. But that happens to many people without any religious formal trinity being spoken of, like deifying their pets ideas or their money or their power, things that many times are not rivalling God for the allegiance of such people but actually coming clearly before God. Many people have trinities, real ones, gods. Like I remember from catholic catechism, which I tresure because it really had very accurate things, for instance this trinity, where it said the enemies of the soul are three world, devil and flesh. Meaning by flex what tody is sex, lust, porno and all that. Obviously that is a very effective trinity, 1. worldly image, concerns, success, becomes one god and destroy our souls, 2. Devil, like drugs, alcohol, enojoying harming others, etc., becomes also a god, and 3. flesh. In my appreciation the most dangerous is the first.

There is a trinity for you and it is very present and very much woshipped.

And it is not a trinity for Christians any more than for any other people. And they are indeed a trinity, because the gthree things are connected, very much connected to each others, and one pulls in the other two.

Salaam

[reel]

It still doesn't answer my above concerns however I am aware that Unitarians and maybe Cooneyites are closest to what the Qur'an says. I also discovered that every translator translates the word said to be "wicked" in 572 when in further inspection, it should be wrongdoers... Which makes more sense.

About the wicked being wrongdoers, sorry, I didn't go into that. I believe you are correct. "Wicked" is too far fetched.

That brings me onto the issue with trinity and how whoever doesn't stop saying trinity will suffer a painful punishment. As huruf said, this is usually just lip service where people have been brainwashed to believe in the trinity because of what the church has been teaching people. These ignorant people deserve a painful punishment? I disagree...

I am with Huruf on trinity being lip service. As I said earlier, its a very controversial topic. You might wanna check out the arguments going below this article http//www.christianity.com/god/trinity/god-in-three-persons-a-doctrine-we-barely-understand-11634405.html

Now I am little confused about how we truly understand those who are into trinity lip service. A christian can be either religious or nonreligious. The religious one tends to be devoted to what he adheres to. But if he doesn't look for validity in what he believes he gets into the group of hadith followers. In Quran, Allah says its his job to take care of this group and that Prophet Muhammad was to stay away from it.

That said, Allah warns us again and again about not partnering him with anyone.
Truth=One God

Go over what FreedomStands said and then ask
What's the purpose of life?

I wouldn't exactly spend time pondering about whether Christians will go to heaven. Let Allah do the job.

[FreedomStands]

Go over what FreedomStands said and then ask
What's the purpose of life?

I wouldn't exactly spend time pondering about whether Christians will go to heaven. Let Allah do the job.

Thank you so much for the recommendation! If you would like to discuss anything or learn about some other religions in comparison to Islam or have any doubts/concerns/issues or topics of interest you may like to discuss with me, feel free to email me at [email protected] !

[Man_of_Faith]

Harmony with you,

There is not only "one God" but there is also nothing else in existence which is not an expression of that one. All you can be if you do not "jump on the train" is to be a broken soul, and the consequence of that is what has been warned by the prophets throughout time; i.e. you will be stuck in a broken world which was only illusive. The one who chases after flesh is the one who will be given more of it as well, and that will be his undoing. The ones who separate the spirit from the flesh completely are they who will be counted happiest later on.

Have faith

[FreedomStands]

Harmony with you,

There is not only "one God" but there is also nothing else in existence which is not an expression of that one. All you can be if you do not "jump on the train" is to be a broken soul, and the consequence of that is what has been warned by the prophets throughout time; i.e. you will be stuck in a broken world which was only illusive. The one who chases after flesh is the one who will be given more of it as well, and that will be his undoing. The ones who separate the spirit from the flesh completely are they who will be counted happiest later on.

Have faith

How does one separate the "spirit" from the "flesh" and also, what do these two terms mean? How do we accomplish this goal and what is achieved at the end by accomplishing this goal?

[hawk99]

About the wicked being wrongdoers, sorry, I didn't go into that. I believe you are correct. "Wicked" is too far fetched.

Peace

IMHO the discussion is about the zawlimin, or the opponents of Allah, who institute idolatry by force or
propaganda, or hide the truth knowingly thru subversion or oppression etc., these are considered wicked.
I also understand that there are levels of wrong doing that one can repent from.

God bless

peace

[martha1031]

Salam,

Previously, I became close to a co-worker who firmly believes Jesus is God. To avoid controversy, I never challenged her view. Additionally, we probably shouldn't have been discussing religion in the workplace, so I was the one who chose to remain silent and listen to her. She related many other stories from the bible, and she tried to do good so we had plenty in common except for the one concept of Jesus as God. She is a very religious person and very active in her church. I can say one thing, however. Not that she will be punished or that she is wicked, but that she has some personal struggles which came to affect me in the workplace. She had some workplace behaviors that eventually caused tension between us. I always tried to be patient with her. Let's just say she wasn't always at her professional best, and sometimes just plain unprofessional to a high degree. This is where I think her worshipping of Jesus failed her. I'm not a Quran expert nor "quoter" but I remember reading in the Quran the verse where God says that prayers to idols do not get to Him. So if my co-worker prays to become a better person, I am sure there can be pronounced limitations considering she is directing her prayers to a human being. About a month ago, she was transferred to a different area of the company, and I was relieved. She was devastated and cried dreadfully because she liked working where I work. Nevertheless, she caused some serious problems due to her unprofessional behavior. She was never told the real reason for being transferred by her supervisor. I had nothing to do with it because I remained silent, but I later found out that upper management was aware of her behaviors. Now, she can be considered much more religiously devout than I, yet in this instance of her life she was shaken miserably. Overall, I wouldn't call her wicked, but some of her actions were wicked and hurtful. So she's made her professional life hard for herself. God hasn't done it, she did it to herself. Whereas, God would probably help us be better employees, but if we worship Him, of course.

I would like to add that my co-worker is very well aware of religions that do not acknowledge Jesus as God. Right after my conversion to Islam, I once inadvertently mentioned to her that Muslims regard Jesus as an important prophet, and I had to endure a defensive lecture from her as to why Jesus is God and not a prophet. Again, because she's so terribly passionate about her religious views, I listened to her as patiently as possible. My point is that she is aware of the message that Jesus is not God, but she refutes it through and through. She may have to answer to that. I wouldn't call her wicked even in this case. For some reason her heart and mind cannot open to the idea. She's answering to this in this life in some ways though, and whatever way she will have to answer to God she is bringing that on herself as well. As far as people that are absolutely oblivious to the truth about Jesus, I think God is merciful. Sadly, wickedness takes hold though, unless we strive to be led to the path of truth. No matter how na?ve we may be in matters of religion, not worshipping God alone has consequences. You may call it a punishment, or something else, but there's something hurtful about not turning to God whether done consciously or not. I can vouch for that in my own life. Only God knows why some people are blinded to the truth.

[sushi1992]

Peace

IMHO the discussion is about the zawlimin, or the opponents of Allah, who institute idolatry by force or
propaganda, or hide the truth knowingly thru subversion or oppression etc., these are considered wicked.
I also understand that there are levels of wrong doing that one can repent from.

God bless

peace

My thoughts precisely hawk... I took time to try and take a step back when reading the reading and I noticed that in 573 it says "from among them"... So technically from what I understand of this verse only certain people from that group are the rejectors/coverers of truth.. I do genuinely think that God is more severe with those who are hiding the truth than those who just follow in ignorance and blindly.

I think the verse needs to be read in line with references to kafara/kafir where we can see that those who hide truth are setting up partners with the creator and what they say should bring alarmbells to believers and those who just use lip service. I know those who are ignorant in the sense that they say lip service where they punish themselves because they become stuck in the illusion/hell and will struggle to reach paradise/bliss/heaven as it hinders the learning curve in life and narrows our mind set. Going to post more responses to the rest of you guy's posts. . Thanks guys keep it coming - always like a healthy debate .

Peace peace

[sushi1992]

As I said in a previous message, the problem in your question is that you speak about christians and apply those ayas you mention to them, and as if you were speaking about christians of today and of any age. But looking at the wording of those ayas, you assumption is not warranted. For those things we should stick exactly to what is said.

As I said previously there have been many, many varietieis of Christ worship, of trinities in the history of religions, to suppose that that refer to any christian, again is unwarranted. We have stick to the terms which are in the ayas, and not because we think those are christians make our mental picture the tarjet of God's words.

For one, as I said, again, to say allah is christ is not the same as to say christ is allah. It is not.

The trinity of christians, as far as I can judge, is an intelectual play, which nobody understands, be3cause plainly it iis a mere formulation which represents nothing, unless again, we are speaking ins epiritual terms of civinity manifestation. That being so, the trinity mention in those ayas does not aply to the main christianity of today that I know of. It does nto apply to catholics.

So to whom does that appply, those exact words of Qur'an? Not to christias as such all comprised.

If what you mean is those, those very persons that are described in the Qur'an in thsoe words, for me after many centuries I do not know who that people might be. Therefore better stick to the formulation and whoever fits it anser that, but not the blnaket question about Christians, that is not grounded.

As to those to whom the ayas refer, they should know. IOr if we know of anybody like that we might think ?oh, those!

I do not know, it might fit certain zionnist christians or pop christians of today, I don't know, but most certianly not all christians as such, not certainly the bulk of them.

On the othe rhand if one really bilieves that there are people who ACTUALLY bilieve in three gods, I mean believe, not just say without really having any conviction behind, of course they would be so misguided that they would fin it very difficult to carry a real moral life. But that happens to many people without any religious formal trinity being spoken of, like deifying their pets ideas or their money or their power, things that many times are not rivalling God for the allegiance of such people but actually coming clearly before God. Many people have trinities, real ones, gods. Like I remember from catholic catechism, which I tresure because it really had very accurate things, for instance this trinity, where it said the enemies of the soul are three world, devil and flesh. Meaning by flex what tody is sex, lust, porno and all that. Obviously that is a very effective trinity, 1. worldly image, concerns, success, becomes one god and destroy our souls, 2. Devil, like drugs, alcohol, enojoying harming others, etc., becomes also a god, and 3. flesh. In my appreciation the most dangerous is the first.

There is a trinity for you and it is very present and very much woshipped.

And it is not a trinity for Christians any more than for any other people. And they are indeed a trinity, because the gthree things are connected, very much connected to each others, and one pulls in the other two.

Salaam

Peace huruf,

I totally get what you're saying and I agree the description must have belonged to a group we do not know of. But I would like to say that only would they be punished if they truly believed that the God is a third or 3, and not just SAYING it.

My mind leads to me the latter, my translation doesn't

peace

[FreedomStands]

Why do you all like to comfort yourself with such musings?

[hawk99]

My thoughts precisely hawk... I took time to try and take a step back when reading the reading and I noticed that in 573 it says "from among them"... So technically from what I understand of this verse only certain people from that group are the rejectors/coverers of truth.. I do genuinely think that God is more severe with those who are hiding the truth than those who just follow in ignorance and blindly.

I think the verse needs to be read in line with references to kafara/kafir where we can see that those who hide truth are setting up partners with the creator and what they say should bring alarmbells to believers and those who just use lip service. I know those who are ignorant in the sense that they say lip service where they punish themselves because they become stuck in the illusion/hell and will struggle to reach paradise/bliss/heaven as it hinders the learning curve in life and narrows our mind set. Going to post more responses to the rest of you guy's posts. . Thanks guys keep it coming - always like a healthy debate .

Peace peace

Peace

Thank you sushi1992 for taking time to respond.

In the context of the Quran Kareem "zawlimin" obviously has shades of severity, from our parents
in the garden who were told not to approach that tree or they would be zalimin but were forgiven, to
firaun who was not and a tyrant. The zalimin includes the enemies of prophet Muhammad and all messengers.
saints, and good folk. Those in a state of jahiliyah (ignorance) more or less wrong themselves as martha1031
has posted, as their intentions may very well be to serve Allah but are simply misguided.

God bless you

peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Harmony with you Freedom,

It means to indulge less in the flesh and become aware of yourself. Hence you would be a more spiritual person and have an easier time working on your character when you can put your instincts in "check mate" to a greater degree. Your beast causes you to sin.

Have faith

[reel]

Peace

IMHO the discussion is about the zawlimin, or the opponents of Allah, who institute idolatry by force or
propaganda, or hide the truth knowingly thru subversion or oppression etc., these are considered wicked.
I also understand that there are levels of wrong doing that one can repent from.

God bless

peace

Sorry about that. I wasn't inspecting the ayat because I thought its useless to wonder about who is going to hell. My understanding is that the wicked is the one who knows that he is doing something wrong. He is fully aware of it. But someone who has no idea about his own mistakes isn't exactly wicked.

Thank you so much for the recommendation! If you would like to discuss anything or learn about some other religions in comparison to Islam or have any doubts/concerns/issues or topics of interest you may like to discuss with me, feel free to email me at [email protected] !

No problem bro. I will surely email or message you when I have questions. )

[huruf]

Peace huruf,

I totally get what you're saying and I agree the description must have belonged to a group we do not know of. But I would like to say that only would they be punished if they truly believed that the God is a third or 3, and not just SAYING it.

My mind leads to me the latter, my translation doesn't

peace

Thank sushi,

Regarding the sincerity of the belief, it is logical that if you believe in something which is guaranteed false you -"will be punished", like the saying gos in the sin is the penance. If you eat arsenic in the proper amounts, you will get sick, that is not an arbitrary measure taken by somebody that you should get sick if you it arsenic, that is the low of the physical world that you do get sick, you are warned, if you insist on it and keep eating it, you cannot say God is so cruel. God is God. For him there is no cruelty or non cruelty, there is. Full stop. If you do things wrong do not expect the result of those doings being good. That does not exist. That is, it does exist, but that is a mercy of God, not something that is to be expected or taken for granted.

If you get on the road from Beijng to Moscow facing east because you believe that is the best route, you will find great, great obstacles. If on the other hand you start facing west because you believe that is the easiest and you even know you have a transiberian railway and everything, you will meet obstacles but not to be compared with those you would face going east. It is the law set by God for His creation. Therefore there is no question of there being arbitrariness or injustice in God guidance. It is loyal guidance. And let us not forget, God is ever mercyful. In His ghadb there is also mercy, the long labourious way full of obstacles, but there is also Mercy.

Salaam