Christians will be punished and are wicked???...
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Go over what FreedomStands said and then ask
What's the purpose of life?I wouldn't exactly spend time pondering about whether Christians will go to heaven. Let Allah do the job.
Thank you so much for the recommendation! If you would like to discuss anything or learn about some other religions in comparison to Islam or have any doubts/concerns/issues or topics of interest you may like to discuss with me, feel free to email me at [email protected] !
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Harmony with you,
There is not only "one God" but there is also nothing else in existence which is not an expression of that one. All you can be if you do not "jump on the train" is to be a broken soul, and the consequence of that is what has been warned by the prophets throughout time; i.e. you will be stuck in a broken world which was only illusive. The one who chases after flesh is the one who will be given more of it as well, and that will be his undoing. The ones who separate the spirit from the flesh completely are they who will be counted happiest later on.
Have faith
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Harmony with you,
There is not only "one God" but there is also nothing else in existence which is not an expression of that one. All you can be if you do not "jump on the train" is to be a broken soul, and the consequence of that is what has been warned by the prophets throughout time; i.e. you will be stuck in a broken world which was only illusive. The one who chases after flesh is the one who will be given more of it as well, and that will be his undoing. The ones who separate the spirit from the flesh completely are they who will be counted happiest later on.
Have faith
How does one separate the "spirit" from the "flesh" and also, what do these two terms mean? How do we accomplish this goal and what is achieved at the end by accomplishing this goal?
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About the wicked being wrongdoers, sorry, I didn't go into that. I believe you are correct. "Wicked" is too far fetched.
Peace
IMHO the discussion is about the zawlimin, or the opponents of Allah, who institute idolatry by force or
propaganda, or hide the truth knowingly thru subversion or oppression etc., these are considered wicked.
I also understand that there are levels of wrong doing that one can repent from.God bless
peace
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Salam,
Previously, I became close to a co-worker who firmly believes Jesus is God. To avoid controversy, I never challenged her view. Additionally, we probably shouldn't have been discussing religion in the workplace, so I was the one who chose to remain silent and listen to her. She related many other stories from the bible, and she tried to do good so we had plenty in common except for the one concept of Jesus as God. She is a very religious person and very active in her church. I can say one thing, however. Not that she will be punished or that she is wicked, but that she has some personal struggles which came to affect me in the workplace. She had some workplace behaviors that eventually caused tension between us. I always tried to be patient with her. Let's just say she wasn't always at her professional best, and sometimes just plain unprofessional to a high degree. This is where I think her worshipping of Jesus failed her. I'm not a Quran expert nor "quoter" but I remember reading in the Quran the verse where God says that prayers to idols do not get to Him. So if my co-worker prays to become a better person, I am sure there can be pronounced limitations considering she is directing her prayers to a human being. About a month ago, she was transferred to a different area of the company, and I was relieved. She was devastated and cried dreadfully because she liked working where I work. Nevertheless, she caused some serious problems due to her unprofessional behavior. She was never told the real reason for being transferred by her supervisor. I had nothing to do with it because I remained silent, but I later found out that upper management was aware of her behaviors. Now, she can be considered much more religiously devout than I, yet in this instance of her life she was shaken miserably. Overall, I wouldn't call her wicked, but some of her actions were wicked and hurtful. So she's made her professional life hard for herself. God hasn't done it, she did it to herself. Whereas, God would probably help us be better employees, but if we worship Him, of course.
I would like to add that my co-worker is very well aware of religions that do not acknowledge Jesus as God. Right after my conversion to Islam, I once inadvertently mentioned to her that Muslims regard Jesus as an important prophet, and I had to endure a defensive lecture from her as to why Jesus is God and not a prophet. Again, because she's so terribly passionate about her religious views, I listened to her as patiently as possible. My point is that she is aware of the message that Jesus is not God, but she refutes it through and through. She may have to answer to that. I wouldn't call her wicked even in this case. For some reason her heart and mind cannot open to the idea. She's answering to this in this life in some ways though, and whatever way she will have to answer to God she is bringing that on herself as well. As far as people that are absolutely oblivious to the truth about Jesus, I think God is merciful. Sadly, wickedness takes hold though, unless we strive to be led to the path of truth. No matter how na?ve we may be in matters of religion, not worshipping God alone has consequences. You may call it a punishment, or something else, but there's something hurtful about not turning to God whether done consciously or not. I can vouch for that in my own life. Only God knows why some people are blinded to the truth.
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Peace
IMHO the discussion is about the zawlimin, or the opponents of Allah, who institute idolatry by force or
propaganda, or hide the truth knowingly thru subversion or oppression etc., these are considered wicked.
I also understand that there are levels of wrong doing that one can repent from.God bless
peace
My thoughts precisely hawk... I took time to try and take a step back when reading the reading and I noticed that in 573 it says "from among them"... So technically from what I understand of this verse only certain people from that group are the rejectors/coverers of truth.. I do genuinely think that God is more severe with those who are hiding the truth than those who just follow in ignorance and blindly.
I think the verse needs to be read in line with references to kafara/kafir where we can see that those who hide truth are setting up partners with the creator and what they say should bring alarmbells to believers and those who just use lip service. I know those who are ignorant in the sense that they say lip service where they punish themselves because they become stuck in the illusion/hell and will struggle to reach paradise/bliss/heaven as it hinders the learning curve in life and narrows our mind set. Going to post more responses to the rest of you guy's posts. . Thanks guys keep it coming - always like a healthy debate .
Peace peace
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As I said in a previous message, the problem in your question is that you speak about christians and apply those ayas you mention to them, and as if you were speaking about christians of today and of any age. But looking at the wording of those ayas, you assumption is not warranted. For those things we should stick exactly to what is said.
As I said previously there have been many, many varietieis of Christ worship, of trinities in the history of religions, to suppose that that refer to any christian, again is unwarranted. We have stick to the terms which are in the ayas, and not because we think those are christians make our mental picture the tarjet of God's words.
For one, as I said, again, to say allah is christ is not the same as to say christ is allah. It is not.
The trinity of christians, as far as I can judge, is an intelectual play, which nobody understands, be3cause plainly it iis a mere formulation which represents nothing, unless again, we are speaking ins epiritual terms of civinity manifestation. That being so, the trinity mention in those ayas does not aply to the main christianity of today that I know of. It does nto apply to catholics.
So to whom does that appply, those exact words of Qur'an? Not to christias as such all comprised.
If what you mean is those, those very persons that are described in the Qur'an in thsoe words, for me after many centuries I do not know who that people might be. Therefore better stick to the formulation and whoever fits it anser that, but not the blnaket question about Christians, that is not grounded.
As to those to whom the ayas refer, they should know. IOr if we know of anybody like that we might think ?oh, those!
I do not know, it might fit certain zionnist christians or pop christians of today, I don't know, but most certianly not all christians as such, not certainly the bulk of them.
On the othe rhand if one really bilieves that there are people who ACTUALLY bilieve in three gods, I mean believe, not just say without really having any conviction behind, of course they would be so misguided that they would fin it very difficult to carry a real moral life. But that happens to many people without any religious formal trinity being spoken of, like deifying their pets ideas or their money or their power, things that many times are not rivalling God for the allegiance of such people but actually coming clearly before God. Many people have trinities, real ones, gods. Like I remember from catholic catechism, which I tresure because it really had very accurate things, for instance this trinity, where it said the enemies of the soul are three world, devil and flesh. Meaning by flex what tody is sex, lust, porno and all that. Obviously that is a very effective trinity, 1. worldly image, concerns, success, becomes one god and destroy our souls, 2. Devil, like drugs, alcohol, enojoying harming others, etc., becomes also a god, and 3. flesh. In my appreciation the most dangerous is the first.
There is a trinity for you and it is very present and very much woshipped.
And it is not a trinity for Christians any more than for any other people. And they are indeed a trinity, because the gthree things are connected, very much connected to each others, and one pulls in the other two.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
I totally get what you're saying and I agree the description must have belonged to a group we do not know of. But I would like to say that only would they be punished if they truly believed that the God is a third or 3, and not just SAYING it.
My mind leads to me the latter, my translation doesn't
peace
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Why do you all like to comfort yourself with such musings?
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My thoughts precisely hawk... I took time to try and take a step back when reading the reading and I noticed that in 573 it says "from among them"... So technically from what I understand of this verse only certain people from that group are the rejectors/coverers of truth.. I do genuinely think that God is more severe with those who are hiding the truth than those who just follow in ignorance and blindly.
I think the verse needs to be read in line with references to kafara/kafir where we can see that those who hide truth are setting up partners with the creator and what they say should bring alarmbells to believers and those who just use lip service. I know those who are ignorant in the sense that they say lip service where they punish themselves because they become stuck in the illusion/hell and will struggle to reach paradise/bliss/heaven as it hinders the learning curve in life and narrows our mind set. Going to post more responses to the rest of you guy's posts. . Thanks guys keep it coming - always like a healthy debate .
Peace peace
Peace
Thank you sushi1992 for taking time to respond.
In the context of the Quran Kareem "zawlimin" obviously has shades of severity, from our parents
in the garden who were told not to approach that tree or they would be zalimin but were forgiven, to
firaun who was not and a tyrant. The zalimin includes the enemies of prophet Muhammad and all messengers.
saints, and good folk. Those in a state of jahiliyah (ignorance) more or less wrong themselves as martha1031
has posted, as their intentions may very well be to serve Allah but are simply misguided.God bless you
peace
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Harmony with you Freedom,
It means to indulge less in the flesh and become aware of yourself. Hence you would be a more spiritual person and have an easier time working on your character when you can put your instincts in "check mate" to a greater degree. Your beast causes you to sin.
Have faith
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Peace
IMHO the discussion is about the zawlimin, or the opponents of Allah, who institute idolatry by force or
propaganda, or hide the truth knowingly thru subversion or oppression etc., these are considered wicked.
I also understand that there are levels of wrong doing that one can repent from.God bless
peace
Sorry about that. I wasn't inspecting the ayat because I thought its useless to wonder about who is going to hell. My understanding is that the wicked is the one who knows that he is doing something wrong. He is fully aware of it. But someone who has no idea about his own mistakes isn't exactly wicked.
Thank you so much for the recommendation! If you would like to discuss anything or learn about some other religions in comparison to Islam or have any doubts/concerns/issues or topics of interest you may like to discuss with me, feel free to email me at [email protected] !
No problem bro. I will surely email or message you when I have questions. )
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Peace huruf,
I totally get what you're saying and I agree the description must have belonged to a group we do not know of. But I would like to say that only would they be punished if they truly believed that the God is a third or 3, and not just SAYING it.
My mind leads to me the latter, my translation doesn't
peace
Thank sushi,
Regarding the sincerity of the belief, it is logical that if you believe in something which is guaranteed false you -"will be punished", like the saying gos in the sin is the penance. If you eat arsenic in the proper amounts, you will get sick, that is not an arbitrary measure taken by somebody that you should get sick if you it arsenic, that is the low of the physical world that you do get sick, you are warned, if you insist on it and keep eating it, you cannot say God is so cruel. God is God. For him there is no cruelty or non cruelty, there is. Full stop. If you do things wrong do not expect the result of those doings being good. That does not exist. That is, it does exist, but that is a mercy of God, not something that is to be expected or taken for granted.
If you get on the road from Beijng to Moscow facing east because you believe that is the best route, you will find great, great obstacles. If on the other hand you start facing west because you believe that is the easiest and you even know you have a transiberian railway and everything, you will meet obstacles but not to be compared with those you would face going east. It is the law set by God for His creation. Therefore there is no question of there being arbitrariness or injustice in God guidance. It is loyal guidance. And let us not forget, God is ever mercyful. In His ghadb there is also mercy, the long labourious way full of obstacles, but there is also Mercy.
Salaam
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Noone is trying to "comfort" themselves but rather get to the truth and not make false assumptions or preclude things prematurely actually....
The truth is that Allah, who is not a human, who is not bound to any law, who has no real need or obligation to do anything or keep even any promise made to people, can do whatever Allah wants to do. That is not to say that Allah doesn't keep the promises, or that Allah doesn't choose to forgive.
No one knows what their judgment will be, we bet on our horses (our strategy to attain paradise) which is secretly Allah placing us on those horses and we ride them to the day of our deaths (the experience of death is skipped because non-information can not be experienced) then if Allah wills, he can bring people back and do whatever Allah wills again.
We have no immortal being, nor do the angels, nor do the jinn, anything that lives, lives by the will of Allah, it is Allah who upholds them, Allah who animates their existence, and can utterly destroy them, because Allah does as Allah wills, and we are in a state of utter surrender willingly or unwillingly. Who this realization is made by Allah to enter, may then know the nature of the Surrender.
That there is no Power other than Allah, that there is no Trust other than Allah, that we have no Faith or Security in things besides this knowledge, that we do not put faith in Justice being over Allah, that we do not put faith that Allah won't do something, that we do not put faith in "Balance" overcoming Allah, not any of these things, all such things are creations of Allah, information that Allah creates freely, and can change and can destroy, and can bring about a new thing, and a new creation, and new information, easily, so all these things are weak and transitory before Allah, and there is nothing eternal but Allah, not the Laws of Allah, not the Qur'an, not the Promises, not the Covenants, nothing is stable or eternal other than Allah alone, Allah alone is the only stable Eternally Lasting Truth, that Allah can change anything, Allah can change his words which are the information Allah creates and upholds, Allah is not bound to anything, Allah is not bound to law, to justice, to righteousness, to evil, to benefit, to harm, to reason, to logic, to rightness, to wrongness, all these are creations of Allah, all these can be changed, Allah alone is the Eternal Truth, that means the only stable and lasting one that does not change, is not made of any information at all, but all information that Allah makes, Allah can change easily.
This is the Truth about Allah, so that you know, and then you can focus on the Surrender, and not these concerns.
The Qur'an answers these questions and explains these things
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Allah can create anything, any information, any habitation, can create fish that fly in the sky instead of the sea, and can place those who do good deeds in the hell fire and make them experience their flesh burning repeatedly, Allah has the power to do whatever Allah wills, so fear Allah only, and know the truth, that Allah has power over all things and Allah can do whatever Allah wills, we rely on Allah only, we do not know what Allah will certainly do except we know that Allah will certainly do whatever Allah wills to do.
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The Qur'an has been made to say that the ones Allah created to be good and do good will be placed in a wonderful habitation, and the ones that Allah created to lie and spread lies and do evilness and are not allowed by Allah or guided by Allah to surrender are created for the fire as their home. Allah has power to do whatever Allah wants to do, and Allah does not make any mistake, nothing slips out of Allah's grasp, there is no error here, there is no possibility for anything to occur which Allah has not made occur, because Allah alone is the one animating all this information and creating it, it isn't as though Allah is some small and far away creature, Allah is like nothing at all, directly behind all this veil of information that shimmers, and it is Allah who is moving everything and giving us our mind, our attention, and any information we receive and how we receive it. We are the creation of Allah, made of information, given information by Allah to experience, the experience of eating food is from Allah, the experience of doubt is from Allah, the experience of forgetting is from Allah, the experience of praying is from Allah, the things that come out of your mouth, the lies and the truth are from Allah, each of these are creations of Allah no one is a creator of information or can produce anything but Allah, no event can occur save that Allah has done it.
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In the Qur'an, the various messengers mentioned make it obvious as well, and Isa is made to say something with great understanding, which is if you torment them, they are your slaves (fettered and bound to do whatever you will), and if you forgive them, you alone are the one with All the Power, all the Information (Al Aziz, Al Hakim).
So if Allah makes a Christian, who does good all their life, even worships in the fashion of a Muslim, who doesn't even say that Jesus is in the son, in fact lives entirely like a Muslim, and does righteousness all their life. Allah can if Allah so wills, throw them into the hell too, because Allah creates whatever Allah wills.
If there was a Muslim saintly person, or someone like me who says all these things, that Allah can do whatever Allah wills to do, Allah can even throw such in the fire if Allah wills, Allah creates whatever Allah wants to create, we should have no confidence that we have made Allah bound, that Allah is under some control, Allah is entirely Free, Allah wills Freely, we will only what Allah wills us to will, but Allah is unbounded, unconditioned, the creator of all our conditions, by which all information is bounded and fettered and dependent on Allah who is unfettered, unbounded, unconditioned, entirely free and freely creates whatever Allah wills. Knowing thus Allah, we should be afraid of Allah, never confident before Allah, nor were the Prophets confident in Justice or any such things, nor had they any Promise that they were so sure that Allah would not just as easily transform or destroy, we can not bind or control Allah, we are bound and controlled by Allah, Justice is whatever Allah makes it to be, its a creation of Allah. You will not be able to know Allah thus, nor fear Allah even, save as Allah wills.
So is your ego such, created by Allah, that you find your neck stiff on this matter? Allah can make it so that your inner being, your heart, your mind, is closed to understanding, or Allah can make you see what I am saying, and realize it, and can make the Surrender a part of your experience and existence, and such who are given the gift of realizing and enacting the Surrender, are those that Know Allah. To Know Allah, is to Know that We are Powerless, That All Information is Powerless, that The One that is not made of any information, The One who is like Nothing At All, Who can Only Be One, because Information is what Individuates and makes Appearances of Distinction, but Anything not made of any Information is said to "Return to Allah" and Allah is not made of Any Information, Is utter Annihilation (Nirvana) of all information, the Eternal and Lasting and Only Truth, Thus is Only Ever One, Singular, Alone.
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The truth is that Allah, who is not a human, who is not bound to any law, who has no real need or obligation to do anything or keep even any promise made to people, can do whatever Allah wants to do. That is not to say that Allah doesn't keep the promises, or that Allah doesn't choose to forgive.
No one knows what their judgment will be, we bet on our horses (our strategy to attain paradise) which is secretly Allah placing us on those horses and we ride them to the day of our deaths (the experience of death is skipped because non-information can not be experienced) then if Allah wills, he can bring people back and do whatever Allah wills again.
We have no immortal being, nor do the angels, nor do the jinn, anything that lives, lives by the will of Allah, it is Allah who upholds them, Allah who animates their existence, and can utterly destroy them, because Allah does as Allah wills, and we are in a state of utter surrender willingly or unwillingly. Who this realization is made by Allah to enter, may then know the nature of the Surrender.
That there is no Power other than Allah, that there is no Trust other than Allah, that we have no Faith or Security in things besides this knowledge, that we do not put faith in Justice being over Allah, that we do not put faith that Allah won't do something, that we do not put faith in "Balance" overcoming Allah, not any of these things, all such things are creations of Allah, information that Allah creates freely, and can change and can destroy, and can bring about a new thing, and a new creation, and new information, easily, so all these things are weak and transitory before Allah, and there is nothing eternal but Allah, not the Laws of Allah, not the Qur'an, not the Promises, not the Covenants, nothing is stable or eternal other than Allah alone, Allah alone is the only stable Eternally Lasting Truth, that Allah can change anything, Allah can change his words which are the information Allah creates and upholds, Allah is not bound to anything, Allah is not bound to law, to justice, to righteousness, to evil, to benefit, to harm, to reason, to logic, to rightness, to wrongness, all these are creations of Allah, all these can be changed, Allah alone is the Eternal Truth, that means the only stable and lasting one that does not change, is not made of any information at all, but all information that Allah makes, Allah can change easily.
This is the Truth about Allah, so that you know, and then you can focus on the Surrender, and not these concerns.
The Qur'an answers these questions and explains these things
-
Allah can create anything, any information, any habitation, can create fish that fly in the sky instead of the sea, and can place those who do good deeds in the hell fire and make them experience their flesh burning repeatedly, Allah has the power to do whatever Allah wills, so fear Allah only, and know the truth, that Allah has power over all things and Allah can do whatever Allah wills, we rely on Allah only, we do not know what Allah will certainly do except we know that Allah will certainly do whatever Allah wills to do.
-
The Qur'an has been made to say that the ones Allah created to be good and do good will be placed in a wonderful habitation, and the ones that Allah created to lie and spread lies and do evilness and are not allowed by Allah or guided by Allah to surrender are created for the fire as their home. Allah has power to do whatever Allah wants to do, and Allah does not make any mistake, nothing slips out of Allah's grasp, there is no error here, there is no possibility for anything to occur which Allah has not made occur, because Allah alone is the one animating all this information and creating it, it isn't as though Allah is some small and far away creature, Allah is like nothing at all, directly behind all this veil of information that shimmers, and it is Allah who is moving everything and giving us our mind, our attention, and any information we receive and how we receive it. We are the creation of Allah, made of information, given information by Allah to experience, the experience of eating food is from Allah, the experience of doubt is from Allah, the experience of forgetting is from Allah, the experience of praying is from Allah, the things that come out of your mouth, the lies and the truth are from Allah, each of these are creations of Allah no one is a creator of information or can produce anything but Allah, no event can occur save that Allah has done it.
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In the Qur'an, the various messengers mentioned make it obvious as well, and Isa is made to say something with great understanding, which is if you torment them, they are your slaves (fettered and bound to do whatever you will), and if you forgive them, you alone are the one with All the Power, all the Information (Al Aziz, Al Hakim).
So if Allah makes a Christian, who does good all their life, even worships in the fashion of a Muslim, who doesn't even say that Jesus is in the son, in fact lives entirely like a Muslim, and does righteousness all their life. Allah can if Allah so wills, throw them into the hell too, because Allah creates whatever Allah wills.
If there was a Muslim saintly person, or someone like me who says all these things, that Allah can do whatever Allah wills to do, Allah can even throw such in the fire if Allah wills, Allah creates whatever Allah wants to create, we should have no confidence that we have made Allah bound, that Allah is under some control, Allah is entirely Free, Allah wills Freely, we will only what Allah wills us to will, but Allah is unbounded, unconditioned, the creator of all our conditions, by which all information is bounded and fettered and dependent on Allah who is unfettered, unbounded, unconditioned, entirely free and freely creates whatever Allah wills. Knowing thus Allah, we should be afraid of Allah, never confident before Allah, nor were the Prophets confident in Justice or any such things, nor had they any Promise that they were so sure that Allah would not just as easily transform or destroy, we can not bind or control Allah, we are bound and controlled by Allah, Justice is whatever Allah makes it to be, its a creation of Allah. You will not be able to know Allah thus, nor fear Allah even, save as Allah wills.
So is your ego such, created by Allah, that you find your neck stiff on this matter? Allah can make it so that your inner being, your heart, your mind, is closed to understanding, or Allah can make you see what I am saying, and realize it, and can make the Surrender a part of your experience and existence, and such who are given the gift of realizing and enacting the Surrender, are those that Know Allah. To Know Allah, is to Know that We are Powerless, That All Information is Powerless, that The One that is not made of any information, The One who is like Nothing At All, Who can Only Be One, because Information is what Individuates and makes Appearances of Distinction, but Anything not made of any Information is said to "Return to Allah" and Allah is not made of Any Information, Is utter Annihilation (Nirvana) of all information, the Eternal and Lasting and Only Truth, Thus is Only Ever One, Singular, Alone.
Peace freedom,
I also appreciate all that you posted in regards to the Geta (i think it's called) - it was enlightening.
I do my very best to not let myself have an ego of any sort. Of course, the creator has endless power and we are nothing compared to it. If i fail to understand something or struggle, i usually put it down to my faulty understanding/interpretation/mistranslation. As i tell people, after reading the Reading, my beliefs did NOT change one bit - i believed in a creator, believed in free choice of whatever path to take, and also acknowledge that those decisions result in different consequences that only the creator knows...
I enjoy deciphering the contents of the Reading - i like to see how it compares to my current understanding - i also enjoy deciphering i translators have done a good job or not. It may seem like i have an ego but in fact, it's not the ego, it's more the annoyance that translators might hide certain things from us, might use certain words that are NOT actually what the creator uses... THAT is where I question - I do not question God's power... of course not - that would be futile and ridiculous... I quetsion how people write God's words and how they translate it to express to others who are not fluent in arabic and need to do extra study if they are curious on the contents of the quran. Of course, as i argue, someone who hasn't read the quran does not mean they are not a "muslim" or submitter/peacemaker... I had previously not read the quran and i didn't change much at all after i read it.
God can do whatever it wills but according to a verse that I read in the quran (cannot remember it tbh), God does not change its laws at will i.e. if gravity is 9.11 it won't just instantly change it to 15... it CAN but it WON'T (this is part of cause and effect anyway... http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603633.msg294996#msg294996).
The God can do whatever it wills, however we are given clues on how the system works by reading the quran, and we are given these same clues without the quran by observing CAUSE AND EFFECT on this earth and in this universe. )
peace
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Peace freedom,
I also appreciate all that you posted in regards to the Geta (i think it's called) - it was enlightening.
I do my very best to not let myself have an ego of any sort. Of course, the creator has endless power and we are nothing compared to it. If i fail to understand something or struggle, i usually put it down to my faulty understanding/interpretation/mistranslation. As i tell people, after reading the Reading, my beliefs did NOT change one bit - i believed in a creator, believed in free choice of whatever path to take, and also acknowledge that those decisions result in different consequences that only the creator knows...
I enjoy deciphering the contents of the Reading - i like to see how it compares to my current understanding - i also enjoy deciphering i translators have done a good job or not. It may seem like i have an ego but in fact, it's not the ego, it's more the annoyance that translators might hide certain things from us, might use certain words that are NOT actually what the creator uses... THAT is where I question - I do not question God's power... of course not - that would be futile and ridiculous... I quetsion how people write God's words and how they translate it to express to others who are not fluent in arabic and need to do extra study if they are curious on the contents of the quran. Of course, as i argue, someone who hasn't read the quran does not mean they are not a "muslim" or submitter/peacemaker... I had previously not read the quran and i didn't change much at all after i read it.
God can do whatever it wills but according to a verse that I read in the quran (cannot remember it tbh), God does not change its laws at will i.e. if gravity is 9.11 it won't just instantly change it to 15... it CAN but it WON'T (this is part of cause and effect anyway... http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603633.msg294996#msg294996).
The God can do whatever it wills, however we are given clues on how the system works by reading the quran, and we are given these same clues without the quran by observing CAUSE AND EFFECT on this earth and in this universe. )
peace
I didn't mean to suggest you have an ego, my ego is possibly way bigger than that ego of everyone, the ego thing was a general statement to anyone reading the post, about being too proud to surrender and really thinking they are "partners" with Allah, that they create things, that they decide things, that they have a will alongside Allah's will.
It appeared you were very careful to not mention above that Allah is the one who decides who is guided or who goes astray, but said instead that Allah "knows" rather than that Allah directly makes it so or wills it, which is what the Qur'an seems to say repeatedly, as I've shown at various times which you can read in my post collection.
I would say that it is some kind of ego attachment that people insist they have power when Allah alone has power, the will is Allah's not our will, even your life is from Allah and by Allah you live. I didn't mean that you are an egotistical or arrogant person.
I will say that I am very egotistical, I am very proud, I stand with arrogance and haughtiness towards all the idols, I attempt to defeat them all, cut out their feet from under them, make them all fall down, but the one Foe I can not defeat, the one I can not undercut, outwit, or defy, is the one who has surrendered my will, who fetters me and binds me, who I belong to as a slave and only ever as a slave, even if I am in the garb of a King or given an immense dominion, Allah is the one I can't kill, I can't stab, I can't puncture, I can't make bleed, I can't dismember, I can't gouge, I can't disembowel and make its innards spill out like I do to all concepts like "Justice" or whatever idols people may take as binding Allah or partners with Allah. Allah is my life, is my death, is my path, is my destination, is my place, is my portion, is my habit, is my provision, and Allah is sufficient for me, Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds. The Enemy to some, The Friend to any.
I invite you to my religion, my practice, my thinking, my way, as it is in my opinion, the most pristine Islam you will find, so pristine, so pure in thinking, that you will never risk shirk Insha'Allah.
Such a Surrender indeed gives tremendous peace and relief, you will find in it no fear other than the fear of Allah alone, and that is a fear that can also come coupled with joy unbounded, all from Allah, the provider, the divider.
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Sorry about that. I wasn't inspecting the ayat because I thought its useless to wonder about who is going to hell. My understanding is that the wicked is the one who knows that he is doing something wrong. He is fully aware of it. But someone who has no idea about his own mistakes isn't exactly wicked.
No problem bro. I will surely email or message you when I have questions. )
Peace reel (huruf, mof),
I think you've both touched down on things which I've pondered on.
I do actually understand that if someone isn't aware they are doing wrong, then they can't exactly be wicked (though they can be wrongdoers?...).
From everything I've read in the Qur'an through and through, these people who "say" certain things that are "wrong" are usually stubborn and want to promote their own "religion" and "beliefs" into the land, spreading information that they are misguided on but knowing that this will cause harm and rebel against the creator (essentially rebelling against the attributes of the creator I.e. they will oppress etc). This I believe is wrong. Someone can read the Quran and choose not to believe it. To my understanding, this is actually seen as a good thing (to not believe everything it says) because you are asked to search creation and use logic and reason, then you will understand if the Qur'an is the God's words or not and by doing this, it will become apparent that they are. There will be some things you might not agree with but it's due to the misinterpretation which you will eventually reevaluate and study to enlighten your mind and widen your knowledge and increase your wisdom. God discredits those who just "believe" whatever you hear, contrary to traditional Muslims who say the quranic words are holy and its unnecessary to know what it all means (-___-). From what I can see, people who refuse to let go of saying something (where these people are actually rejectors outright) without using logic and reason is a bad thing. I believe a punishment essentially has to be inflicted of some sort because we HAVE the faculties to comprehend and decide if our current understanding is correct. For example, say I served a plank of wood. I kept talking to it n praying to it and thinking it's super duper uber special. If I use my logic and reason, I would realise this is not the case. I reckon if you use your logic and reason to the best of your ability, then you cent really go wrong tbh.
Huruf, you speak of guaranteed falseness. What do you mean by this?
Also, you compare this where someone is taking arsenic and slowly killing themselves. Does this person know arsenic is wrong for them and continues taking it. That is the question because if the person knows it's wrong and intakes it, that's transgressing. But most people with specific relations to God and other gods is not going to take that illusion away from you, so it hinders your learning and mind expansion.... But huruf let me know what guaranteed false means.
peace
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I didn't mean to suggest you have an ego, my ego is possibly way bigger than that ego of everyone, the ego thing was a general statement to anyone reading the post, about being too proud to surrender and really thinking they are "partners" with Allah, that they create things, that they decide things, that they have a will alongside Allah's will.
It appeared you were very careful to not mention above that Allah is the one who decides who is guided or who goes astray, but said instead that Allah "knows" rather than that Allah directly makes it so or wills it, which is what the Qur'an seems to say repeatedly, as I've shown at various times which you can read in my post collection.
I would say that it is some kind of ego attachment that people insist they have power when Allah alone has power, the will is Allah's not our will, even your life is from Allah and by Allah you live. I didn't mean that you are an egotistical or arrogant person.
I will say that I am very egotistical, I am very proud, I stand with arrogance and haughtiness towards all the idols, I attempt to defeat them all, cut out their feet from under them, make them all fall down, but the one Foe I can not defeat, the one I can not undercut, outwit, or defy, is the one who has surrendered my will, who fetters me and binds me, who I belong to as a slave and only ever as a slave, even if I am in the garb of a King or given an immense dominion, Allah is the one I can't kill, I can't stab, I can't puncture, I can't make bleed, I can't dismember, I can't gouge, I can't disembowel and make its innards spill out like I do to all concepts like "Justice" or whatever idols people may take as binding Allah or partners with Allah. Allah is my life, is my death, is my path, is my destination, is my place, is my portion, is my habit, is my provision, and Allah is sufficient for me, Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds. The Enemy to some, The Friend to any.
I invite you to my religion, my practice, my thinking, my way, as it is in my opinion, the most pristine Islam you will find, so pristine, so pure in thinking, that you will never risk shirk Insha'Allah.
Such a Surrender indeed gives tremendous peace and relief, you will find in it no fear other than the fear of Allah alone, and that is a fear that can also come coupled with joy unbounded, all from Allah, the provider, the divider.
I know you were not suggesting anything I was just making a point. Does it matter if I didn't mention that Allah guides and Allah leads astray? Lol of course, if you think about it, God guides us and leads us astray by making the different paths we take available which will result in good or not so good. God knows everything, and if we speak with our creator and connect within ourselves, then we can make the right choices or the wrong choices and this is what I believe is meant by Allah guiding and misguiding.
I admit I do not like how you "invite" me to your religion and way of thinking. I am quite happy with the faculties that God has provided me and I do not need your way of thinking or anyone else's but my way of thinking that is guided by the ultimate designer at every turn. My creator is my creator who will help me understand and be in a state of peace. You speak highly of yourself to say your way is very "pristine", I hope you are not coming near arrogance either. No one knows God's true interpretation so we can't exactly say our system is perfect. To me is my system and to you is yours, but a healthy debate and agreements that the creator is the most powerful is always nice ).
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I know you were not suggesting anything I was just making a point. Does it matter if I didn't mention that Allah guides and Allah leads astray? Lol of course, if you think about it, God guides us and leads us astray by making the different paths we take available which will result in good or not so good. God knows everything, and if we speak with our creator and connect within ourselves, then we can make the right choices or the wrong choices and this is what I believe is meant by Allah guiding and misguiding.
I admit I do not like how you "invite" me to your religion and way of thinking. I am quite happy with the faculties that God has provided me and I do not need your way of thinking or anyone else's but my way of thinking that is guided by the ultimate designer at every turn. My creator is my creator who will help me understand and be in a state of peace. You speak highly of yourself to say your way is very "pristine", I hope you are not coming near arrogance either. No one knows God's true interpretation so we can't exactly say our system is perfect. To me is my system and to you is yours, but a healthy debate and agreements that the creator is the most powerful is always nice ).
Do you remember my speech was all about arrogance and how I am arrogant? I was doing that on purpose lol, to demonstrate. Though the point behind even that was that how a person sounds or appears isn't as important as what is being said and if it is true or not.
Here is an email I sent just a moment ago, take no offense at it, but I mention something in it that I will also put in bold
Allah has comforted me with your approval of what I say. You are the only one out of all those people who Allah has allowed to acknowledge the statements, and I am extremely grateful for that.
We are both witnesses to the huge blasphemies they are saying unwittingly, saying that they don't believe in the "God of FreedomStands" and denying the powers of Allah, attributing partners. None of them are allowed to see or surrender it seems, but Allah could easily make them see or surrender, but in the meantime we are made to witness it all too, and hopefully we will realize what a great favor Allah has bestowed upon us that he has given us understanding that they can't even accept, I show them right to their faces all these things, all these verses even, and they act like they can't even see it or ignore what it says. One guy that Allah has humorously named "Man of Faith" is denying miracles of Allah, another called Samira (I am reminded of the name Samiri from the Qur'an) is saying that she doesn't want to believe in such a God and is only ever attracted to any aspect of it that is "duality" or "polarity" when Allah is not bound to anything, not bound even to "balance" which is also in the control of Allah, not that Allah must do equal of one thing and then has the compulsion to do the opposite in equal amounts, Allah can make a thing completely one way, or unbalanced, and they are making "Justice" "Balance" and all these things partners with Allah in power, saying that such things could have power over Allah. It is even mentioned in the Qur'an
1746
And We have placed coverings on their hearts and a heaviness in their ears lest they understand it, and when you mention your Lord alone in the Quran they turn their backs in aversion.
We know best what they listen to when they listen to you, and when they take counsel secretly, when the unjust say You follow only a man deprived of reason.
See what similitudes they coin for thee, and thus are all astray, and cannot find a road!
And they say When we are bones and fragments, shall we forsooth, be raised up as a new creation?
Say Should you be rocks or iron,
Or some other creature of those which are too hard (to receive life) in your minds! But they will say Who will return us? Say Who created you at first. Still they will shake their heads at you and say When will it be? Say It may be near.(It certainly is near, because for anyone who dies, the experience of non-existence and non-information is entirely skipped, and the next thing they experience after information, is information again, all the non-information is skipped, which it says right after)
1752
A day when He will call you and ye will answer with His praise, and ye will think that ye have tarried but a little while.
And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely the Shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the Shaitan is an open enemy to man.3055
And when the Last Hour dawns, those who had been lost in sin will swear that they had not tarried longer than an hour thus were they wont to delude themselves !
But those who were endowed with knowledge and faith will say ?Indeed, you have been tardy in what God has revealed, until the Day of Resurrection this, then, is the Day of Resurrection but you - you were determined not to know it!
But on that day their excuse shall not profit those who were unjust, nor shall they be regarded with goodwill.
AND, INDEED, We have propounded unto men all kinds of parables in this Qur?an. But thus it is if thou approach them with any message, those who are bent on denying the truth are sure to say, ?You are but making false claims!?
Thus doth Allah seal the hearts of those who know not.
Therefore be patient; surely the promise of Allah is true and let not those who have no certainty hold you in light estimation.1819
And in like manner We awakened them that they might question one another. A speaker from among them said How long have ye tarried? They said We have tarried a day or some part of a day, (Others) said Your Lord best knoweth what ye have tarried. Now send one of you with this your silver coin unto the city, and let him see what food is purest there and bring you a supply thereof. Let him be courteous and let no man know of you.2258
Bethink thee of him who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said My Lord is He Who giveth life and causeth death, he answered I give life and cause death. Abraham said Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West. Thus was the disbeliever abashed. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Or (bethink thee of) the like of him who, passing by a township which had fallen into utter ruin, exclaimed How shall Allah give this township life after its death? And Allah made him die a hundred years, then brought him back to life. He said How long hast thou tarried? (The man) said I have tarried a day or part of a day. (He) said Nay, but thou hast tarried for a hundred years. Just look at thy food and drink which have not rotted! Look at thine ass! And, that We may make thee a token unto mankind, look at the bones, how We adjust them and then cover them with flesh! And when (the matter) became clear unto him, he said I know now that Allah is Able to do all things. -
Freedomstands,
I advise you not to talk behind someone's back in a manner like that and accuse them of saying they have no connection to God because what do you know about that?
It could be that I found a much better interpretation than you have. And you did not think at all regarding the jinn discussion when I talked about Solomon and the jinn who suggested that he could bring down the dominion of the queen before he could stand up.
What is better? To have God as a distant object or be assimilated with it like according to "I am in the Creator and the Creator is in me" in Jesus manner and behave accordingly?
What is Paganism? It is breaking rule number two of the 'Commandments' and assigning God to an image of something which is untrue. It is Paganism even if the God happens to be called Allah and it is alleged monotheism.Because you cannot understand my words you go around backbiting me?
What kind of nearness to God is that testament to?
Have faith