Do you take the Qur'an literally?
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Hello Armanaziz,
Allah is NOT a deity
Can you elaborate on this please?
Peace.
Salam Samira.
Allah is not a deity.
First of all, let me clarify what I try to mean by ?deity? in the above statement. A deity is an ?Object or Entity? which is worshiped by humans as a Supreme Authority. Some religions preach multiple deities, while others preach a single deity.
On the contrast Allah is not an ?Object or Entity?. Rather Allah is the source or Originator of all objects and entities. So, it is incorrect to understand Allah as a ?Deity in the heaven? ? rather Allah is the ?Reason? of existence of all entities and objects ? everything in the heavens and the earth.
The history tells us that pagan Arabs in jaheliat era worshiped a ?moon-god? names Allah in addition to several other deities. That ?deification? is called worship of ?tagoot? in Qur?an. If one moves away from being slave to the Master of the universe who is the source of human morality and judgement to the worship of an artificial deity which has to be defined and characterized by the scholars and clergy ? he is moving away from being submissive to Allah to being submissive to tagoot. And that is where the corruption engulfs religion.
You see ? throughout human history every community came us with some form of religions and rituals because human beings themselves require religion and rituals to ?formalize? the concepts of conscience and goodness ? to give the new generation a head-start in ethical thinking and to set the benchmarks of acceptable behavior within a societal setting. Whenever there is a real need ? a class of ?businessman? comes forward to take control of the supply for that need ? to make some money. That?s where the clergy comes in ? they take control of the religion and rituals either by using political power, or through provocation and transform the rituals and religion from being expression of one?s conscience and intellect ? to ?worship? of a deity that they can define as per their convenience. This ?deity? typically wants humans to do some good (because without this pretention of goodness they cannot brainwash the majority of people), but whenever the interest of the clergy and their political sponsors are at stake, the deity brings out its ugly face ? and starts preaching against free thoughts and morality. Since this is their deity ? they are the only ones who possess the information about the deity.
Per my understanding of Qur?an ? we have been commanded to move away from worship of such ?artificial? deities or tagoot. We have been told to be slave to the God of the entire universe whose rules and commands are naturally imprinted in human conscience in the form human morality and intellect. Believing and worshipping an artificially defined ?deity? is worship of tagoot.
2255 Allah ? no God except Him the Ever Living Sustainer of Existence. Drowsiness or sleep does not take him over. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him. Who is the one who can intercede with Him except with His authorization? He knows whatever (happened) up until them (literally between their hands) and whatever (would happen) after them and they do not capture (literally surround) anything from His knowledge except what He wills. His domain encompasses the heavens and the earth and guarding of both does not fatigue Him and He is the Highest, the Greatest!
2256 There is no compulsion in the resolution (ِ. Verily, right has become clearly distinct from the error ? then whoever represses (faith) in deity (ِ and has faith in Allah has grasped the most firm handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Listener, Knowledgeable.
2257 Allah is the patron of those who have faith; He brings them out from darkness into light. And those who repress (faith) ? their patrons are the deities ( they bring them out from light into darkness; they are the ones ? the society of the fire; they will be in there permanently.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The above verses are immediately followed by an interesting story which further clarifies the difference between Allah and a deity (tagoot)
2258 Did you not see about the one who debated Abraham concerning his Master because Allah gave him the kingdom? As Abraham said, ?My Master is the one who enlivens and causes death.? He said, ?I (also) enliven and cause death.? Abraham said, ?Then indeed Allah brings up the sun from the east, so you bring it up from the west.? So the one who repressed (faith) became startled; and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Now, let?s think carefully what is going on here. Is Abraham saying his Master is a ?Deity? who makes the sun rise in the east? Obviously not ? because in that case the king would challenge him to negotiate with the deity to change the direction of the sunrise for one day to prove his deity is the real deity. RATHER, Abraham is saying his Master is not any object or entity ? that he (Abraham) has taken as Master the Master of the universe who has created the Universe and set up the rules by which the universe operates. It is Allah?s rule that sun rises from the east depending on the direction of rotation of earth. Even if all the ?Muslims? or ?Hindus? or ?Christians? or ?Jews? combine and pray to their imaginary deities all together - nothing can change the rule of Allah. Because Allah is not deity of worship of a specific group or sect. Allah is the name of the ultimate source of everything that exist who defined how the universe would return good with good and evil with evil.
Hope this clarifies. May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Hello Armanaziz,
Thank you for your response.
A deity is an ?Object or Entity? which is worshiped by humans as a Supreme Authority. Some religions preach multiple deities, while others preach a single deity.
On the contrast Allah is not an ?Object or Entity?. Rather Allah is the source or Originator of all objects and entities. So, it is incorrect to understand Allah as a ?Deity in the heaven? ? rather Allah is the ?Reason? of existence of all entities and objects ? everything in the heavens and the earth.
Allah is the name of the ultimate source of everything that exist who defined how the universe would return good with good and evil with evil.
You seem to be having a pantheistic vision of God. I got this from Wikipedia
"As a religious position, some describe pantheism as the polar opposite of atheism. From this standpoint, pantheism is the view that everything is part of an all-encompassing, immanent God. All forms of reality may then be considered either modes of that Being, or identical with it. Some hold that pantheism is a non-religious philosophical position. To them, pantheism is the view that the Universe and God are identical."
Hence all of the world and the Universe are at the end manifestations of God with God as the Source, and God's 'Holy Spirit' is present as well. The more one assimilates themselves with their inner consciousness, which is called the divine consciousness as well, the more the Holy Spirit can be a part of that person, and the person becomes more and more of an expression of God Itself in the outer world, and is more spiritual than fleshly/worldly.
But then the Quran in it's traditional translations doesn't seem to hold the same viewpoint. More like He created everything under His authority, and His vision and knowing by itself is Omnipresent only. Not His Self. Seeing such verses as examples
754 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. The night runs away from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are commissioned by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory to God, Lord of the worlds.
574 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. He knows everything that enters within the earth, and everything that comes out of it, and everything that comes down from the heaven, and everything that ascends into it. And He is with you wherever you may be. God is Seer of what you do.
2386 Say "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Lord of the great Throne?"
23116 So, Exalted is God, the true King, there is no god except He, the Lord of the noble Throne.
407 Those who carry the Throne and all those surrounding it glorify the praise of their Lord, and believe in Him, and they seek forgiveness for those who have believed "Our Lord, You encompass all things with mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repented and followed Your path, and spare them the agony of Hell."
6917 And the angels will be on its borders; and the Throne of your Lord will be carried, above them on that Day, by eight.
117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water; so as to test who from among you works the best. And when you say "You will be resurrected after the death," those who have rejected say "This is but clear magic!"
I am curious how you interpret the word 'Aarsh', which is supposed to mean 'throne'. Unless you have a different translation for it? Then how do you explain the verses having bold words in particular?
Peace,
Samira
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You may want to also look up the term panentheism, that is pan-en-theism which means that God encompasses everything.
Also, though people may have at various times and places in the world, "adored the sun and the moon", Allah was not the word for the moon, but Allah was the term for the Ultimate, from the root 'lh, the ' being the glottal stop or "uh" sound. Allah was the semitic language word across the Semitic language family in various pronounciations but mostly "Uhllah", the "uh" or "ah" or "aw" at the end being considered a common attachment in pronouncing the term. The term had meanings like "Ultimate", "Beyond", "Powerful" and things like that and always referred to the Origination and Controller of all the forces of nature who were often called the "sons" due to calling anything "directly generated" to be a "son". Images may have been made later on but generally images were not made or believed to represent the original power which was understood to not have any form but to control all forms or "put its name into" or "put its glory into" certain representatives, which is an idea also found in the Bible, one such chosen representation was "Yw" which may be an early form of "YHWH" and was in conflict with "Hadad" who was often called "Baal" besides Allah who was also considered "Baal" in the sense of "Lord, Owner of the Household".
So throughout the Semitic language speaking people, the Akkadian language based people, there was the concept of the Ultimate and variations on the root 'lh were used to refer to this, it was not a reference to the moon but always a reference to the absolute Ultimate.
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Samira,
In 117 it becomes obvious with rule/dominion/might for the word in question. Throne is just a lame interpretation.
Aersh also literally on a letter by letter basis means "Possess Foundation/Concrete Charge/Association", i.e. in an easier language rule or dominion or "have the position of power" but yet non physical obviously.
This is just ONE show of the weakness of the mainstream way of interpreting the discourse. It does not at all follow a letter by letter meaning pattern which is hinted at in Quran using the so-called initials.
Have faith
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I do not think there is anytghing wrong with saying 3arsh provided we have the sane linguistic conscience. We say something is in our hands, even when our hads are empty, because we are sure to be understood by anybody, because people have a linguistic experience to know that what we mean is that we have some power or capacity over that something we are discussing.
If somebody in an atmosphere where there is a good linguistic conscience says throne to mean the peak of power, majesty rule and so many things, in the first place it is concise saving a few lines of words, it is more real, because all the things represented in the mentl image of throne are condensed into one, and all of the in fat are one, and people, get what is meant, unless something tells them that it is a piece of furniture we are talking about. Obviously, God and pieces of furniture are not likely to have in the same picture.
Salaam
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In life, we will be that to which we are destined. My parents arrived to the US from Mexico just a couple of months before my birth, and I was meant to be nothing more than a person who submits to the will of God, a Muslim. That was and is God's destiny. Praise be to God.
There really is no such thing as predestination in the Qur'an, God gave us free will. Nobody is destined to become this or that, they choose their own path.
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There really is no such thing as predestination in the Qur'an, God gave us free will. Nobody is destined to become this or that, they choose their own path.
I'll share my recent email with you (but I will say now, that there is "Free Will", but you'll see whose that is)
479 Often people use that verse to say that whatever harm befalls a person is due to their own sins and crimes, but then in the Biblical Book of Job we see that Job has not done anything and God freely does whatever God wills, which is the message throughout most of the Qur'an as well, so what then could the meaning of this verse be?
To me it seems clear that it means what it seems to say, and also has an extended meaning which can be seen in other verses.
Wow! Let us go back even one verse behind that one and see what it says
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"Wherever you may be, death will overtake you - even though you be in towers raised high. "Yet, when a good thing happens to them, some say, "This is from God," whereas when evil befalls them, they say, "This is from thee!?Say "All is from God."
What, then, is amiss with these people that they are in no wise near to grasping the truth of what they are told?"
So that is a relief, that I have not been misspeaking all this time!
A few verses later it says
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Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.Luckily, in my view, this is not at all a discrepancy, but a meditation for one to realize!
So Allah says to say "All is from God", then says right after "evil is from yourselves", then says "you would find a discrepancy, don't you meditate?" haha
To me it means that Allah is doing everything ("All is from God", and that by their own hands will evil befall them, that the good and the bad both come from Allah, but (any or all of the following)
- That by their own hands and actions will Allah lead them to evil results.
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So leave those who reject this revelation to Me We shall lead them on, step by step, in ways beyond their knowledge;6945
We would indeed have seized him by his right hand
Then, We would have severed his life-line.
And not one of you would have withheld us from him.
But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing.914
"Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people."
It appears that Allah is saying that by the hands of people and the actions of people, Allah is doing these things and controlling these matters directly as "Allah has power over all things", bringing punishment to some, mercy to some, harm to some.1539
He said My Lord! because Thou hast made life evil to me, I will certainly make (evil) fair-seeming to them on earth, and I will certainly cause them all to deviate
or
He said my Lord! because Thou hast led me to err I will surely make things fairseeming unto them on the earth and will surely seduce them all639
And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.226
Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;830
And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.4142
The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they attend to the contact-method, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little.4248-
But if they turn away, then We did not send you as their guardian. You are only required to deliver. And when We let the human being taste mercy from Us, he becomes happy with it, and when adversity afflicts them because of what their hands have done, the human being becomes rejecting.
God holds control over Heaven and Earth; He creates anything He wishes. He bestows a daughter on anyone He wishes and bestows a son on anyone He wishes;
Or He mingleth them, males and females, and He maketh barren whom He will. Lo! He is Knower, Powerful.
And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise.
And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,2286
God places not a burden on a soul beyond its capacity. For it is what it earned and against it is what it deserved. Our Lord! Take us not to task if we forgot or made a mistake. Our Lord! Burden us not with a severe test like that which Thou hadst burdened those who were before us. Our Lord! Load us not such that we have no energy for it and pardon us and forgive us and have mercy on us. Thou art our Defender so help us against the folk, the ones who are ungrateful.7178
Whomever God guides, then, he is one who is truly guided. And whomever He causes to go astray, then, those, they are the ones who are losers.
- That because of what they are made to be, evil will befall them. ("Many...we have made for the hellfire"
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And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.(lol wow I'm amazed that I just ended that section above at that point of 7178 and the next verse is the one I was going to talk about (which I had written about and then saw its the very next verse!)
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The most beautiful names belong to Allah so call on him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in his names for what they do, they will soon be requited.986
Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.(This is to say that, they were "made or created to experience the evil or as one that will experience whatever" so in a sense "it is because of yourselves" or "what you are" or "what you are made to be"
So even with the usual understanding that people have, that what bad happens to a person is because of what the person has done, it is still Allah who is in control of such, and Allah who created the person that way to experience that, just like Allah created for the hell certain jinn and humans, this whole life is "making manifest" or "proving" or "being" exactly what Allah has made us to be. In their life, the evildoer will discover that they were created by Allah to be a bad person whose habitation is hell, just like Allah created fish for water.
So it says "All is from God", the good and the evil, the harm and the benefit, and that what good comes it is from Allah, and what evil comes, it is
- Done through you, through your own actions.
and/or - Because of what you are made to be, so due to what you are made to experience.
and certainly this does not apply to everything, because it is Allah who sends a storm that might horribly injure someone, or cause a fire that burns and maims a child, and it can't be said to be "from them" that such things occurred, as they didn't create the storm (or truly any of the circumstances ever).
So even if it is saying what the usual understanding is, that "people get what they deserve" or "because of misdeeds people have done they are punished", those misdeeds, step by step, were being controlled entirely by Allah, there is no Will operative other than the will of Allah, even if it appears our own will or thoughts, that is just information Allah created for that person. Such might be the clue even in the verse, that it says to say "All is from God" then the next verse says "yourselves" to show perhaps that Allah is the one operating the person and operating their will (though other verses make that more clear anyway) and what evil befalls them and the steps that lead to it are from Allah even when it is through what appear to be their own actions that lead them step by step into harm and error and trouble. Allah is the one operating in people, even our very life belongs to Allah, Allah is animating us and breathed life into us, is encompassing our vision and all the information that we consider "our self", which was also created by Allah.
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We verily created man and We know what his mind whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
When the two receivers receive, placed on the right and on the left.
not even a word can he utter but there is a witness with him, ever-present.4122
Ye did not hide yourselves lest your ears (receivers right and left) and your eyes (receivers right and left) and your skins should testify against you, but ye deemed that Allah knew not much of what ye did.
- Evil actions are committed by the jinn and mankind, meaning that the sun and the moon and the trees and whatever else can't do evil, evil is something from people, that people do (even though Allah created such a thing and wills whatever to be so), but this I mean "Allah created this thing called "evil" or "wrongdoing" which is something that jinn and mankind do, while it is not something plants, animals, or anything else in nature other than the jinn and mankind are made to do). Likewise, Allah created a thing such as "justice" and "recompense" and all these ideas like "covenant" and "covenant breakers" and whatever else.
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Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit fo r Punishment and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour for God carries out all that He wills.
These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire over their heads will be poured out boiling water.3370-
O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and (always) say a word directed to the Right
He will cause your deeds to be virtuous, and will forgive you your sins. And whoever pays heed unto God and His Apostle has already attained to a mighty triumph.
Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.
So that Allah will torment the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the associators and the associatoresses and Allah will relent toward believing men and the believing women; and Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful
(Allah proves what we are by making us exist and "be" whatever Allah wills, to "make manifest" whatever it is Allah wants to "make manifest" as information)
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so that He might prove the truth to be true and the false to be false, however hateful this might be to those who were lost in sin.2135
Every soul is going to taste of death, and We shall prove you with evil and good as a temptation; and unto Us ye shall be returned.672
Who hath created death and life that He might prove you, as to which of you is excellent in work. And He is the Mighty, the Forgiver.6165
And He it is Who hath made you successors in the earth, and hath raised some of you over others in degrees, that he might prove you by that which He hath vouchsafed unto you. Verily thy Lord is swift in chastising, and verily He is Forgiving, Merciful.2155-
And We will surely prove you with aught of fear and hunger and diminution in riches and lives and fruits; and bear thou the glad tidings unto the patient;
Who, when a misfortune befalls them, say Surely we are Allah's and to Him we shall surely return.
It is they upon whom their Sustainer's blessings and grace are bestowed, and it is they, they who are on the right path!4731
And of a surety We shall prove you all until We know the strivers among you and the steadfast, and We shall prove your states.(That is, to make the information manifested, thus to "know" and to "believe". If the information is not created in any form, it is non-existent, it is not "proved", it is not "made" or "made manifest"
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Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way and oppose the Messenger after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.
In other terms, Allah is writing the story, writing the "scroll" that is this existence and all our experiences, that is reciting this "book" which is what we are, our character. Allah created Firon the opponent of Musa, and wrote about him in the Qur'an extensively, each of these are characters created by Allah, information made entirely by Allah, none of them wrote their own stories, Allah is the one who is reciting this tale in every detail, the technology we have (such as ships and phones, able to travel and communicate now from such long distances), the thoughts we have, our whole story
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Now whoever surrenders his whole being unto God, and is a doer of good withal, has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing for with God rests the final outcome of all events.
And whosoever disbelieveth, let not his disbelief afflict thee (O Muhammad). Unto Us is their return, and We shall tell them what they did. Lo! Allah is Aware of what is in the breasts (of men).
We give them comfort for a little, and then We drive them to a heavy doom.
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If thou shouldst ask them Who created the heavens and the earth? they would answer Allah. Say Praise be to Allah! But most of them know not.
(This is also how one deals with the Atheist, since the answer is always Allah. For example, if you give the definition "whatever all information is generated by and animated by" which is basically "Whatever created the universe and the Earth" they will designate some term for that, and they will be talking about Allah if the definitions match up properly)
Unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Lo! Allah, He is the Self-Sufficient, the Owner of Praise.
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If all the trees on earth were pens, and the sea ink, with seven seas added to it, the words of God would not be exhausted for, truly, God is The Mighty, The Wise.
the creation of you all and the resurrection of you all is but like a single soul for, verily, God is all-hearing, all-seeing.
Art thou not aware that it is God who makes the night grow longer by shortening the day, and makes the day grow longer by shortening the night, and that He has made the sun and the moon subservient , each running its course for a term set and that God is fully aware of all that you do?
Thus it is, because God alone is the Ultimate Truth/Reality (Al-Haqq), so that all that men invoke instead of Him is sheer falsehood; and because God alone is exalted, truly great!
Art thou not aware how the ships speed through the sea by God?s favour, so that He might show you some of His wonders? Herein, behold, there are messages indeed for all who are wholly patient in adversity and deeply grateful .18109
Say "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."
I hope you enjoyed this message!
To recap
I don't really think that people produce anything themselves, but that Allah produces everything, even what the people do, and everything is from Allah ultimately, even down to the actions that people do.
Allah causes suffering to anyone Allah wills, and Allah can make that suffering come from the actions of the individual or from some other information, but it is all coming from Allah, and it can be done regardless of any injustice a person might have done, and it can be done in response to injustice the people have done, and what they do, is what Allah wills them to do.
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If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance but the Word from Me will be proved true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."6148
Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed divinity to aught beside Him; hence, We have not made thee their keeper, and neither art thou responsible for their conduct.2545
Have you not considered (the work of) your Lord, how He extends the shade? And if He had willed He could certainly have made it stationary; then We have made the sun an indication of it548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had willed He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might prove you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;951
Say Nothing will afflict us save what Allah has ordained for us; He is our Patron; and on Allah let the believers rely.659
With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).
And He it is who causes you to be dead at night, and knows what you work in daytime; and He brings you back to life each days in order that a term set be fulfilled. In the end, unto Him you must return and then He will make you understand all that you were doing .
He is the Absolute Master over His slaves. He sends angels to watch over you. Then when death comes to one of you, Our messengers take him, and they do not fail in their task.
Then are they restored unto Allah, their Lord, the Just. Surely His is the judgment. And He is the most swift of reckoners.
Say Who delivereth you from the darkness of the land and the sea? Ye call upon Him humbly and in secret, (saying) If we are delivered from this (fear) we truly will be of the thankful.
Say "God can save you from this and from every distress - and still you ascribe divinity to other powers beside Him!"
Say "It is He who has the power to let loose upon you suffering from above you or from beneath your feet, or to confound you with mutual discord and let you taste the fear of one another." Behold how many facets we give to these messages, so that they might understand the truth.
May Allah bless you for reading all this, and may Allah make us both excellent in our understanding and religion!
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I appologize for picking a slightly older post to respond. I felt this post was not adequately discussed...
is theoretically possible for one to be atheist and Mu'min (faithful) and muslim at the same time. There are even Qur'anic examples of such people.
Peace Arman,
If you know some of those verses please share.
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I worship the Lord of Evil, Master of Good, who creates whatever and does whatever and is not bound to anything, not bound to justice, not bound to law, all these things are creations of Allah which all can do whatever Allah wants to do with them, and we can't help it or fight it, and that is surrender in my opinion. Even in hating Allah passionately and what Allah may do, we know that we can not fight Allah or win against Allah and try our best to get good from Allah rather than bad (and know that even that desire is from Allah, and the ability to achieve it or the failure to achieve it is all from Allah).
I'm sorry but that is totally wrong FreedomStands, I mean it's not true.
Allah clearly says that He is bound to justice, mercy and certain laws (Sunnatulluah). There are very clear verses in the Qur'an.
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Salaam Arman,
Really good post! I feel enlightened.. Have to admit, that line of thinking makes a lot more sense peace
Keep up the good work.Peace.
I know a Turkish Islamic scholar who says the same, he says belief in God doesn't mean anything and doesn't benefit anyone either, "it's just a hollow assertion. God will Judge our actions", he argues.
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I'm sorry but that is totally wrong FreedomStands, I mean it's not true.
Allah clearly says that He is bound to justice, mercy and certain laws (Sunnatulluah). There are very clear verses in the Qur'an.
Show me the verses that say Allah is "bound" and is not the controller of all harm (and please read my entire post since I already showed many verses in that above).
517
ndeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary." Say "And who could have prevailed with God in any way had it been His will to destroy the Christ, son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone who is on earth-all of them? For, God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; He creates what He wills and God has the power to will anything!"564
And the Jews say, "God's hand is shackled!" It is their own hands that are shackled; and rejected are they because of this their assertion. Nay, but wide are His hands stretched out He dispenses as He wills. But all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee by thy Sustainer is bound to make many of them yet more stubborn in their overweening arrogance and in their denial of the truth. And so We have cast enmity and hatred among the followers of the Bible, until Resurrection Day; every time they light the fires of war, God extinguishes them; and they labour hard to spread corruption on earth and God does not -love the spreaders of corruption.5724
Such persons as are covetous and commend covetousness to men. And if any turn back (from God's Way), verily God is Free of all Needs, Worthy of all Praise.10107
And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace; He brings it to whom He pleases of His slaves; and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.5118
Shouldst Thou torment them, then verily they are Thine slaves; and shouldst Thou forgive them, then verily Thou! Thow art the Mighty, the Wise.Allah does as Allah wills and is not bound by anything, but chooses to be merciful or just, but is not bound to these things and can do whatever Allah wills and none can stop him and there is no authority other than Allah
540
Knowest thou not that to God (alone) belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punisheth whom He wills, and He forgiveth whom He wills and God hath power over all things.There really is no such thing as predestination in the Qur'an, God gave us free will. Nobody is destined to become this or that, they choose their own path.
5722
vie with one another in seeking to attain to your Sustainer?s forgiveness, and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for those who have attained to faith in God and His Apostle such is the bounty of God which He grants unto whomever He wills - for God is limitless in His great bounty.
Naught of disaster befalleth in the earth or in yourselves but it is in a Book before we bring it into being - Lo! that is easy for Allah -
So that you may not grieve for what has escaped you, nor be exultant at what He has given you; and Allah does not love any arrogant boaster1713
And every human being's destiny have We tied to his neck; and on the Day of Resurrection We shall bring forth for him a record which he will find wide open;4424
and leave the sea becalmed for, verily, they are a host destined to be drowned!?3154
Then after sorrow He sent down security upon you, a calm coming upon a party of you, and (there was) another party whom their own souls had rendered anxious; they entertained about Allah thoughts of ignorance quite unjustly, saying We have no hand in the affair. Say Surely the affair is wholly (in the hands) of Allah. They conceal within their souls what they would not reveal to you. They say Had we any hand in the affair, we would not have been slain here. Say Had you remained in your houses, those for whom slaughter was ordained would certainly have gone forth to the places where they would be slain, and that Allah might test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts; and Allah knows what is in the breasts.3156
O you who have attained to faith! Be not like those who are bent on denying the truth and say of their brethren after having set out on a journey to faraway places or gone forth to war, "Had they but remained with us, they would not have died," or, "they would not have been slain" - for God will cause such thoughts to become a source of bitter regret in their hearts, since it is God who grants life and deals death. And God sees all that you do.3145
Nor can a soul die except by Allah's leave, the term being fixed as by writing. If any do desire a reward in this life, We shall give it to him; and if any do desire a reward in the Hereafter, We shall give it to him. And swiftly shall We reward those that (serve us with) gratitude.7179
And most certainly have We destined for hell many of the jinn and men who have hearts with which they fail to grasp the truth, and eyes with which they fail to see, and ears with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way it is they, they who are the heedless!3942
It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.734
For all people a term has been set and when their term approaches, they can neither delay it by a single moment, nor can they advance it.1049
Say "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as Allah willeth. To every people is a term appointed when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)."154
Never did We destroy a population that had not a term decreed and assigned beforehand.
Neither can a people anticipate its term, nor delay it.1024
The likeness of this world's life is only as water which We send down from the cloud, then the herbage of the earth of which men and cattle eat grows luxuriantly thereby, until when the earth puts on its golden raiment and it becomes garnished, and its people think that they have power over it, Our command comes to it, by night or by day, so We render it as reaped seed; produce, as though it had not been in existence yesterday; thus do We make clear the communications for a people who reflect. -
Thank you recluse for trying to correct me. It would assist me greatly if you could read all that I have written in this thread, and then produce your evidence to assert that Allah is not free to do as Allah wills, that Allah is not the source of everything (good and bad), that Allah does not decree a thing ahead of time or fix a term that is predetermined, that Allah is bound by things or bound at all and thus those things which bind Allah have more authority and have power over Allah and influence Allah.
Otherwise, please reconsider your position based on all the evidence I have presented, and join me in my religion, which is the tremulous fear of Allah and acknowledgement of absolute surrender to Allah who can do anything, and no one is safe, Allah is free to do as Allah wills.
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Show me the verses that say Allah is "bound" and is not the controller of all harm (and please read my entire post since I already showed many verses in that above).
There are many others, but here is an example;
654 If those who acknowledge Our signs come to you, then say, "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Compassionate."
If you mean, Allah could commit injustice, of course He could, but He won't.
I have to say you have a wrong perception of Allah, but I will come back to that later, insha'Allah.
Peace
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There are many others, but here is an example;
654 If those who acknowledge Our signs come to you, then say, "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Compassionate."
If you mean, Allah could commit injustice, of course He could, but He won't.
I have to say you have a wrong perception of Allah, but I will come back to that later, insha'Allah.
Peace
Yes, I know that verse, and Allah can choose mercy, and my point was that Allah is free to do as Allah wills, so please share with me how I have the wrong perception of Allah, especially considering how many things I quoted above, please read all my posts in this thread or click my username on the side and view all my posts and tell me how and why I am wrong.
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My concept is pretty clear cut, and also supported strongly by the Qur'an. Maybe you should first share with me what you think my concept is (or read all my writing on this website and then share with me what you think my concept is) since it may just be a misunderstanding that I can clarify. If you say what you think my concept is, then I can see if you seem to have misunderstood or if something I said was not clear enough and I can further clarify.
Meanwhile, I have shown you a number of verses that contradict your statement regarding "free will" and the Qur'an not talking about things being decreed ahead of time. That is why I'm urging you to thoroughly review and read my writing if possible, thank you.
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It should furthermore be noted, that I follow the Qur'an because it matches my concept and so can be used appropriately to propagate it, but if the Qur'an said "Allah is bound" "Allah is not free to do as Allah wills" "Allah's hand is chained to justice" "Allah doesn't create everything" "Allah is not responsible for everything" "Allah does not control everything" "People all have power of their own to do as they please and Allah does not control these things and is at a distance or is a servant that just animates their existence yet does whatever they wish to do" or any number of statements in a similar vein of thinking, I would throw the Qur'an aside as a book of utter blasphemy. Not the other way around, where if the Qur'an says blasphemies then I am to believe it just because it is in the Qur'an. Luckily, the Qur'an confirms what I am saying, as do the other books, while it does not confirm these modern ideas like "free will" as much or "omnibenevolence" both relatively modern "Western" style philosophical ideas based off a misunderstanding of the Koine Greek word Agape.
If you're interested in the Bible also confirming what I say, then here is that
"Do you have much scripture to back up these claims? I have scriptures that really seem to say otherwise
God can't? Please read all of the following, from the bottom up if you will. It clearly shows that God is the one doing it all, all of it is from God, nothing at all is not God's doing, nothing at all is not caused by God, God is doing every single bit of it, even if a person imagines it is themselves it is really God doing it. These verses demonstrate that. You will see it is God who makes people believe, God who makes people disbelieve, God who deforms people, God who burns them, God is responsible for all bad things, God is responsible for all good things, God is the one doing every single aspect, everything that happens is what God is doing, if a person believes and does good it is by God alone making them do it, and if God hardens a person they can never believe, God sends all our thoughts, all delusions, everything is from God alone. Everything means everything (it does not mean some things, or exclude some things like your thoughts or your will or your decisions or your actions, it means everything absolutely), even your so-called will, even your thoughts are manipulated and at the mercy of God, your life, your death, your conduct, every single thing and I have shown you here many verses confirming this from just this Scripture, all the other scriptures also say this. Please read the following completely and with an open mind to make sure your theology falls into place with the scripture, it will give you a scarier and greater realization of what is happening and make you a better devotee of God I think if you are allowed to understand it
2 Corinthians 121
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
1 Corinthians 18
He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 44
Jesus answered, "It is written 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Exodus 411
The LORD said to him, "Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
Romans 919
Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"
Job 912
If he snatches away, who can stop him? Who can say to him, 'What are you doing?'
Daniel 435
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him "What have you done?"
2 Thessalonians 211
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
2 Thessalonians 211
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
Judges 923
God stirred up animosity between Abimelek and the citizens of Shechem so that they acted treacherously against Abimelek.
Ezekiel 149
"'And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel.
1 Kings 2223
"So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
2 Chronicles 1822
"So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Isaiah 4513
I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the LORD Almighty."
Isaiah 4611
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
Isaiah 4815
I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him. I will bring him, and he will succeed in his mission.
Lamentations 115
"The Lord has rejected all the warriors in my midst; he has summoned an army against me to crush my young men. In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah.
Romans 124
For this reason, God delivered them to sexual impurity as they followed the lusts of their hearts and dishonored their bodies with one another.
Romans 126
This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
Romans 128
And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong.
Job 2316
"It is God who has made my heart faint, And the Almighty who has dismayed me,
Isaiah 457
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
2 Kings 1925
"'Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone.
Isaiah 4711
Disaster will come upon you, and you will not know how to conjure it away. A calamity will fall upon you that you cannot ward off with a ransom; a catastrophe you cannot foresee will suddenly come upon you.
Lamentations 338
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
Nehemiah 75
So my God put it into my heart to assemble the nobles, the officials and the common people for registration by families. I found the genealogical record of those who had been the first to return. This is what I found written there
Proverbs 26
For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
2 Corinthians 816
Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you.
2 Corinthians 214
But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ's triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.
Revelation 1717
For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God's words are fulfilled.
Proverbs 164
The LORD works out everything to its proper end-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Ecclesiastes 713
Consider what God has done Who can straighten what he has made crooked?
Ezra 727
Blessed be the LORD, the God of our fathers, who put such a thing as this into the heart of the king, to beautify the house of the LORD that is in Jerusalem,
Exodus 362
And Moses called Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whose heart the LORD had put wisdom, even every one whose heart stirred him up to come unto the work to do it
Isaiah 498
This is what the LORD says "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
Isaiah 659
I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.
Ezekiel 3626
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Job 210
He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
Jeremiah 3242
"This is what the LORD says As I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will give them all the prosperity I have promised them.
Psalm 399
I was silent; I would not open my mouth, for you are the one who has done this.
Ecclesiastes 714
When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider this God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, no one can discover anything about their future.
1 Kings 1114
Then the LORD raised up against Solomon an adversary, Hadad the Edomite, from the royal line of Edom.
1 Kings 1123
And God raised up against Solomon another adversary, Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, Hadadezer king of Zobah.
Ezra 15
Then God stirred the hearts of the priests and Levites and the leaders of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to go to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple of the LORD.
Haggai 114
So the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of the whole remnant of the people. They came and began to work on the house of the LORD Almighty, their God,
Isaiah 412
"Who has stirred up one from the east, calling him in righteousness to his service? He hands nations over to him and subdues kings before him. He turns them to dust with his sword, to windblown chaff with his bow.
Romans 920
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Isaiah 459
"Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?
Isaiah 648
Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Jeremiah 186
He said, "Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.
Romans 921
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Romans 144
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Romans 918
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Exodus 421
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 73
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,
Exodus 912
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Exodus 101
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them
Exodus 1020
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 1027
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exodus 1110
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Exodus 144
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.
Exodus 1417
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
Deuteronomy 230
But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.
Joshua 1120
For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
John 1240
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
Romans 916
It does not, therefore, depend on human will or effort, but on God's mercy.
Ephesians 28
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-
Romans 915
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Romans 917
For Scripture says to Pharaoh "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Exodus 916
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
Jeremiah 1016
But the God of Israel is no idol! He is the Creator of everything that exists, including Israel, his own special possession. The LORD of Heaven's Armies is his name!
Jeremiah 5119
But the God of Israel is no idol! He is the Creator of everything that exists, including his people, his own special possession. The LORD of Heaven's Armies is his name!
Acts 424
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
Nehemiah 96
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.
Acts 1415
"Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
Revelation 106
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!
Isaiah 4424
"This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,
Isaiah 4314
This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel "For your sake I will send to Babylon and bring down as fugitives all the Babylonians, in the ships in which they took pride.
Zechariah 121
A prophecy The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares
Isaiah 4424
This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer and Creator "I am the LORD, who made all things. I alone stretched out the heavens. Who was with me when I made the earth?
Isaiah 4518
For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Proverbs 305
Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to all who come to him for protection
Deuteronomy 83
Yes, he humbled you by making you go hungry and then feeding you with manna, a food previously unknown to you and your ancestors. He did it to teach you that people do not live by bread alone; rather, we live by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
Romans 830
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 27
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Isaiah 2612
LORD, you establish peace for us; all that we have accomplished you have done for us.
Isaiah 251
O LORD, you are my God! I will exalt you in praise, I will extol your fame. For you have done extraordinary things, and executed plans made long ago exactly as you decreed.
Psalm 405
Many, LORD my God, are the wonders you have done, the things you planned for us. None can compare with you; were I to speak and tell of your deeds, they would be too many to declare.
Ephesians 111
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 15
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
Philippians 213
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Romans 814
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Jeremiah 152
And if they ask you, 'Where shall we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says "'Those destined for death, to death; those for the sword, to the sword; those for starvation, to starvation; those for captivity, to captivity.'
Jeremiah 164
"They will die of deadly diseases. They will not be mourned or buried but will be like dung lying on the ground. They will perish by sword and famine, and their dead bodies will become food for the birds and the wild animals."
Jeremiah 2410
I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.'"
Jeremiah 4311
He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those destined for death, captivity to those destined for captivity, and the sword to those destined for the sword.
Ezekiel 512
A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.
Ezekiel 1211
Say to them, 'I am a sign to you.' "As I have done, so it will be done to them. They will go into exile as captives.
Ezekiel 3327
"Say this to them 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says As surely as I live, those who are left in the ruins will fall by the sword, those out in the country I will give to the wild animals to be devoured, and those in strongholds and caves will die of a plague.
Zechariah 119
So I said, ?I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another.?
Revelation 1310
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.
Isaiah 485
Therefore I told you these things long ago; before they happened I announced them to you so that you could not say, 'My images brought them about; my wooden image and metal god ordained them.'
Isaiah 448
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
Job 122
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Job 1910
He tears me down on every side till I am gone; he uproots my hope like a tree.
Job 1214
What he tears down cannot be rebuilt; those he imprisons cannot be released.
Job 377
So that everyone he has made may know his work, he stops all people from their labor.
Job 1215
If he holds back the waters, there is drought; if he lets them loose, they devastate the land.
Job 1216
To him belong strength and insight; both deceived and deceiver are his.
Job 1217
He leads rulers away stripped and makes fools of judges.
Job 1219
He leads priests away stripped and overthrows officials long established.
Job 1220
He silences the lips of trusted advisers and takes away the discernment of elders.
Job 174
You have closed their minds to understanding; therefore you will not let them triumph.
Job 1222
He reveals the deep things of darkness and brings utter darkness into the light.
Job 1223
He makes nations great, and destroys them; he enlarges nations, and disperses them.
Job 1224
He deprives the leaders of the earth of their reason; he makes them wander in a trackless waste.
Job 1225
They grope in darkness with no light; he makes them stagger like drunkards.
Job 3836
Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?
Job 3839
"Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions
Job 3841
Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
Job 3917
for God did not endow her with wisdom or give her a share of good sense.
Job 3926
"Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom and spread its wings toward the south?
Job 3927
Does the eagle soar at your command and build its nest on high?
Job 4014
Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you.
Job 4111
Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.
Romans 1135
"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?"
1 Corinthians 1026
for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
Deuteronomy 1014
To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
Job 95
He moves mountains without their knowing it and overturns them in his anger.
Job 422
"I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Job 423
You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
Job 427
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.
Job 428
So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has."
God does everything, and if you read Job you will understand that as well. God is the tormentor, the cause of disease, the deceived and the deceiver are his doing, he is the cause of all delusion, we are at the mercy of God, God can in an instant turn us away and destroy us, and God answers to no authority, God does whatever God wants to do. So please don't ignore the scripture, please understand that there is nothing but God's will in action, you can not do anything, it is God doing it all ultimately.
Job 932
"God is not a mortal like me, so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial.Job 934
The mediator could make God stop beating me, and I would no longer live in terror of his punishment.Job 935
Then I could speak to him without fear, but I cannot do that in my own strength.Job 107
though you know that I am not guilty and that no one can rescue me from your hand?Job 108
"'You formed me with your hands; you made me, yet now you completely destroy me. -
I don't really think that people produce anything themselves, but that Allah produces everything, even what the people do, and everything is from Allah ultimately, even down to the actions that people do.
Allah causes suffering to anyone Allah wills, and Allah can make that suffering come from the actions of the individual or from some other information, but it is all coming from Allah, and it can be done regardless of any injustice a person might have done, and it can be done in response to injustice the people have done, and what they do, is what Allah wills them to do.
Peace FreedomStands
What is your understanding of free will and accountability for humans if "what they do is, what Allah wills them to do"?
If we are forced to do what Allah wills us to do and we have no free choice then what is the justice for our accountability?
I hope you are not mixing predestination with Mashe'at of Allah. -
Peace FreedomStands
What is your understanding of free will and accountability for humans if "what they do is, what Allah wills them to do"?
If we are forced to do what Allah wills us to do and we have no free choice then what is the justice for our accountability?
I hope you are not mixing predestination with Mashe'at of Allah.I think you may be served well by clicking my username and clicking the thing that will show you all my posts to get an idea of what I am saying
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=256713
There is no other "force" besides Allah ultimately, but such is not a concern really, so on the immediate level, and on the level of what appears to us to be true, we appear to be able to make decisions and choices, and should choose to do what benefits us rather than what harms us in the short and the long term, the best being the most lasting in good, the worst being the most lasting in bad.
If the Ultimate power and control of Allah disturbs you and boggles the mind too much, then you need not concern yourself with such matters, though I have outlined it very clearly throughout my writing which you can see on the page that has all my posts collected, which I highly recommend you go through if possible.
The "big picture" is that Allah is the "free will" that "wills" everything that exists, and everything that exists is "information" and nothing can operate on its own, everything is the creation of Allah supported by Allah (it even says this about the use of magic, nothing operates without Allah willing it to be so, there is no thought or desire that is not Allah creating it, we create nothing at all), it is all powered by Allah, and Allah makes that clear repeatedly in the Qur'an as well, and even what appears to be our decision and our will, is actually Allah doing it all. If Allah harms someone, Allah is free to do whatever Allah wills.
If this concept is too much, then put it aside so that you do not lose hope, or meditate on it so that you do lose hope in anything that might be false, since it is important to understand the Surrender.
Meanwhile, on the apparently level, of limited information, yes we appear to have choices, yes we do whatever we think of doing, we make decisions, the decisions may lead us to eventual harm or eventual benefit, and all that is true, it is the picture we see and can easily comprehend and seems obvious to us. Thus are also many deceived, because they are not allowed to realize that Allah is the real plotter, the one who leads people on by what he makes them.
Allah has said that there will be a Judgment day, in which those proven to be bad by Allahs will, shall find their habitation to be the fire. Allah created them, created everything they were "able" to do, created the fire, created all the thoughts and events involved, set the time of their life and the place of their death, and everything else as you will see in my posts that quote extensively from the Qur'an.
The largely modern "western" concept of "free will" is often a form of shirk when not examined carefully, claiming that people create their own thoughts, that are left freely moving, and not understanding Allah is the one upholding all reality itself and all animation of information is done by Allah, there is no other animating force, and nothing roams as it pleases but only as Allah wills.
What we deem this moment as Justice is irrelevant, Allah can create anything and convince us entirely of it, he can make what we think now is bad to seem good, and what we think now is good to seem bad, Allah can make it that the killing of children is suddenly the highest order of justice, and can do whatever Allah wills, but this moment, Allah has made it the way it is, and created this specific idea of justice that you and I may be experiencing, and created the idea of judgment day, and of hell for the disbelievers, and so on. Though Allah is not bound to anything, and Allah alone is the authority who determines anything.
So please check out my numerous quotes and posts that I've made recently, and once you have read through them, please correct me on my thinking if you do not find yourself agreeing with those quotes or my interpretation of them, so that I may go aright.
I am not disagreeing with you, we, with our own hands, do evil or good, and bring it about, but the bigger picture is that it is not done by us really, no one can be guided and no one can go astray save my Allah willing every moment of it, every bit of what is animated is created by God, from our thoughts to our deeds, and Allah is writing the story, and Allah chooses some to be the ones who are harmed and punished, others to be the ones who are spared and rewarded, and Allah does all this freely, throughout the persons life, and Allah is not remote or far away, but is the base and foundation on which all information relies in order to exist and move.