Do you take the Qur'an literally?
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I appologize for picking a slightly older post to respond. I felt this post was not adequately discussed...
is theoretically possible for one to be atheist and Mu'min (faithful) and muslim at the same time. There are even Qur'anic examples of such people.
Peace Arman,
If you know some of those verses please share.
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I worship the Lord of Evil, Master of Good, who creates whatever and does whatever and is not bound to anything, not bound to justice, not bound to law, all these things are creations of Allah which all can do whatever Allah wants to do with them, and we can't help it or fight it, and that is surrender in my opinion. Even in hating Allah passionately and what Allah may do, we know that we can not fight Allah or win against Allah and try our best to get good from Allah rather than bad (and know that even that desire is from Allah, and the ability to achieve it or the failure to achieve it is all from Allah).
I'm sorry but that is totally wrong FreedomStands, I mean it's not true.
Allah clearly says that He is bound to justice, mercy and certain laws (Sunnatulluah). There are very clear verses in the Qur'an.
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Salaam Arman,
Really good post! I feel enlightened.. Have to admit, that line of thinking makes a lot more sense peace
Keep up the good work.Peace.
I know a Turkish Islamic scholar who says the same, he says belief in God doesn't mean anything and doesn't benefit anyone either, "it's just a hollow assertion. God will Judge our actions", he argues.
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I'm sorry but that is totally wrong FreedomStands, I mean it's not true.
Allah clearly says that He is bound to justice, mercy and certain laws (Sunnatulluah). There are very clear verses in the Qur'an.
Show me the verses that say Allah is "bound" and is not the controller of all harm (and please read my entire post since I already showed many verses in that above).
517
ndeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary." Say "And who could have prevailed with God in any way had it been His will to destroy the Christ, son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone who is on earth-all of them? For, God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; He creates what He wills and God has the power to will anything!"564
And the Jews say, "God's hand is shackled!" It is their own hands that are shackled; and rejected are they because of this their assertion. Nay, but wide are His hands stretched out He dispenses as He wills. But all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee by thy Sustainer is bound to make many of them yet more stubborn in their overweening arrogance and in their denial of the truth. And so We have cast enmity and hatred among the followers of the Bible, until Resurrection Day; every time they light the fires of war, God extinguishes them; and they labour hard to spread corruption on earth and God does not -love the spreaders of corruption.5724
Such persons as are covetous and commend covetousness to men. And if any turn back (from God's Way), verily God is Free of all Needs, Worthy of all Praise.10107
And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace; He brings it to whom He pleases of His slaves; and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.5118
Shouldst Thou torment them, then verily they are Thine slaves; and shouldst Thou forgive them, then verily Thou! Thow art the Mighty, the Wise.Allah does as Allah wills and is not bound by anything, but chooses to be merciful or just, but is not bound to these things and can do whatever Allah wills and none can stop him and there is no authority other than Allah
540
Knowest thou not that to God (alone) belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punisheth whom He wills, and He forgiveth whom He wills and God hath power over all things.There really is no such thing as predestination in the Qur'an, God gave us free will. Nobody is destined to become this or that, they choose their own path.
5722
vie with one another in seeking to attain to your Sustainer?s forgiveness, and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for those who have attained to faith in God and His Apostle such is the bounty of God which He grants unto whomever He wills - for God is limitless in His great bounty.
Naught of disaster befalleth in the earth or in yourselves but it is in a Book before we bring it into being - Lo! that is easy for Allah -
So that you may not grieve for what has escaped you, nor be exultant at what He has given you; and Allah does not love any arrogant boaster1713
And every human being's destiny have We tied to his neck; and on the Day of Resurrection We shall bring forth for him a record which he will find wide open;4424
and leave the sea becalmed for, verily, they are a host destined to be drowned!?3154
Then after sorrow He sent down security upon you, a calm coming upon a party of you, and (there was) another party whom their own souls had rendered anxious; they entertained about Allah thoughts of ignorance quite unjustly, saying We have no hand in the affair. Say Surely the affair is wholly (in the hands) of Allah. They conceal within their souls what they would not reveal to you. They say Had we any hand in the affair, we would not have been slain here. Say Had you remained in your houses, those for whom slaughter was ordained would certainly have gone forth to the places where they would be slain, and that Allah might test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts; and Allah knows what is in the breasts.3156
O you who have attained to faith! Be not like those who are bent on denying the truth and say of their brethren after having set out on a journey to faraway places or gone forth to war, "Had they but remained with us, they would not have died," or, "they would not have been slain" - for God will cause such thoughts to become a source of bitter regret in their hearts, since it is God who grants life and deals death. And God sees all that you do.3145
Nor can a soul die except by Allah's leave, the term being fixed as by writing. If any do desire a reward in this life, We shall give it to him; and if any do desire a reward in the Hereafter, We shall give it to him. And swiftly shall We reward those that (serve us with) gratitude.7179
And most certainly have We destined for hell many of the jinn and men who have hearts with which they fail to grasp the truth, and eyes with which they fail to see, and ears with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way it is they, they who are the heedless!3942
It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.734
For all people a term has been set and when their term approaches, they can neither delay it by a single moment, nor can they advance it.1049
Say "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except as Allah willeth. To every people is a term appointed when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)."154
Never did We destroy a population that had not a term decreed and assigned beforehand.
Neither can a people anticipate its term, nor delay it.1024
The likeness of this world's life is only as water which We send down from the cloud, then the herbage of the earth of which men and cattle eat grows luxuriantly thereby, until when the earth puts on its golden raiment and it becomes garnished, and its people think that they have power over it, Our command comes to it, by night or by day, so We render it as reaped seed; produce, as though it had not been in existence yesterday; thus do We make clear the communications for a people who reflect. -
Thank you recluse for trying to correct me. It would assist me greatly if you could read all that I have written in this thread, and then produce your evidence to assert that Allah is not free to do as Allah wills, that Allah is not the source of everything (good and bad), that Allah does not decree a thing ahead of time or fix a term that is predetermined, that Allah is bound by things or bound at all and thus those things which bind Allah have more authority and have power over Allah and influence Allah.
Otherwise, please reconsider your position based on all the evidence I have presented, and join me in my religion, which is the tremulous fear of Allah and acknowledgement of absolute surrender to Allah who can do anything, and no one is safe, Allah is free to do as Allah wills.
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Show me the verses that say Allah is "bound" and is not the controller of all harm (and please read my entire post since I already showed many verses in that above).
There are many others, but here is an example;
654 If those who acknowledge Our signs come to you, then say, "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Compassionate."
If you mean, Allah could commit injustice, of course He could, but He won't.
I have to say you have a wrong perception of Allah, but I will come back to that later, insha'Allah.
Peace
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There are many others, but here is an example;
654 If those who acknowledge Our signs come to you, then say, "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Compassionate."
If you mean, Allah could commit injustice, of course He could, but He won't.
I have to say you have a wrong perception of Allah, but I will come back to that later, insha'Allah.
Peace
Yes, I know that verse, and Allah can choose mercy, and my point was that Allah is free to do as Allah wills, so please share with me how I have the wrong perception of Allah, especially considering how many things I quoted above, please read all my posts in this thread or click my username on the side and view all my posts and tell me how and why I am wrong.
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My concept is pretty clear cut, and also supported strongly by the Qur'an. Maybe you should first share with me what you think my concept is (or read all my writing on this website and then share with me what you think my concept is) since it may just be a misunderstanding that I can clarify. If you say what you think my concept is, then I can see if you seem to have misunderstood or if something I said was not clear enough and I can further clarify.
Meanwhile, I have shown you a number of verses that contradict your statement regarding "free will" and the Qur'an not talking about things being decreed ahead of time. That is why I'm urging you to thoroughly review and read my writing if possible, thank you.
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It should furthermore be noted, that I follow the Qur'an because it matches my concept and so can be used appropriately to propagate it, but if the Qur'an said "Allah is bound" "Allah is not free to do as Allah wills" "Allah's hand is chained to justice" "Allah doesn't create everything" "Allah is not responsible for everything" "Allah does not control everything" "People all have power of their own to do as they please and Allah does not control these things and is at a distance or is a servant that just animates their existence yet does whatever they wish to do" or any number of statements in a similar vein of thinking, I would throw the Qur'an aside as a book of utter blasphemy. Not the other way around, where if the Qur'an says blasphemies then I am to believe it just because it is in the Qur'an. Luckily, the Qur'an confirms what I am saying, as do the other books, while it does not confirm these modern ideas like "free will" as much or "omnibenevolence" both relatively modern "Western" style philosophical ideas based off a misunderstanding of the Koine Greek word Agape.
If you're interested in the Bible also confirming what I say, then here is that
"Do you have much scripture to back up these claims? I have scriptures that really seem to say otherwise
God can't? Please read all of the following, from the bottom up if you will. It clearly shows that God is the one doing it all, all of it is from God, nothing at all is not God's doing, nothing at all is not caused by God, God is doing every single bit of it, even if a person imagines it is themselves it is really God doing it. These verses demonstrate that. You will see it is God who makes people believe, God who makes people disbelieve, God who deforms people, God who burns them, God is responsible for all bad things, God is responsible for all good things, God is the one doing every single aspect, everything that happens is what God is doing, if a person believes and does good it is by God alone making them do it, and if God hardens a person they can never believe, God sends all our thoughts, all delusions, everything is from God alone. Everything means everything (it does not mean some things, or exclude some things like your thoughts or your will or your decisions or your actions, it means everything absolutely), even your so-called will, even your thoughts are manipulated and at the mercy of God, your life, your death, your conduct, every single thing and I have shown you here many verses confirming this from just this Scripture, all the other scriptures also say this. Please read the following completely and with an open mind to make sure your theology falls into place with the scripture, it will give you a scarier and greater realization of what is happening and make you a better devotee of God I think if you are allowed to understand it
2 Corinthians 121
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
1 Corinthians 18
He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 44
Jesus answered, "It is written 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Exodus 411
The LORD said to him, "Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
Romans 919
Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"
Job 912
If he snatches away, who can stop him? Who can say to him, 'What are you doing?'
Daniel 435
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him "What have you done?"
2 Thessalonians 211
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
2 Thessalonians 211
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
Judges 923
God stirred up animosity between Abimelek and the citizens of Shechem so that they acted treacherously against Abimelek.
Ezekiel 149
"'And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel.
1 Kings 2223
"So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
2 Chronicles 1822
"So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Isaiah 4513
I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the LORD Almighty."
Isaiah 4611
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
Isaiah 4815
I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him. I will bring him, and he will succeed in his mission.
Lamentations 115
"The Lord has rejected all the warriors in my midst; he has summoned an army against me to crush my young men. In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah.
Romans 124
For this reason, God delivered them to sexual impurity as they followed the lusts of their hearts and dishonored their bodies with one another.
Romans 126
This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
Romans 128
And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong.
Job 2316
"It is God who has made my heart faint, And the Almighty who has dismayed me,
Isaiah 457
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
2 Kings 1925
"'Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone.
Isaiah 4711
Disaster will come upon you, and you will not know how to conjure it away. A calamity will fall upon you that you cannot ward off with a ransom; a catastrophe you cannot foresee will suddenly come upon you.
Lamentations 338
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?
Nehemiah 75
So my God put it into my heart to assemble the nobles, the officials and the common people for registration by families. I found the genealogical record of those who had been the first to return. This is what I found written there
Proverbs 26
For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
2 Corinthians 816
Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you.
2 Corinthians 214
But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ's triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.
Revelation 1717
For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God's words are fulfilled.
Proverbs 164
The LORD works out everything to its proper end-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Ecclesiastes 713
Consider what God has done Who can straighten what he has made crooked?
Ezra 727
Blessed be the LORD, the God of our fathers, who put such a thing as this into the heart of the king, to beautify the house of the LORD that is in Jerusalem,
Exodus 362
And Moses called Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whose heart the LORD had put wisdom, even every one whose heart stirred him up to come unto the work to do it
Isaiah 498
This is what the LORD says "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
Isaiah 659
I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.
Ezekiel 3626
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Job 210
He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
Jeremiah 3242
"This is what the LORD says As I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will give them all the prosperity I have promised them.
Psalm 399
I was silent; I would not open my mouth, for you are the one who has done this.
Ecclesiastes 714
When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider this God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, no one can discover anything about their future.
1 Kings 1114
Then the LORD raised up against Solomon an adversary, Hadad the Edomite, from the royal line of Edom.
1 Kings 1123
And God raised up against Solomon another adversary, Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, Hadadezer king of Zobah.
Ezra 15
Then God stirred the hearts of the priests and Levites and the leaders of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to go to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple of the LORD.
Haggai 114
So the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of the whole remnant of the people. They came and began to work on the house of the LORD Almighty, their God,
Isaiah 412
"Who has stirred up one from the east, calling him in righteousness to his service? He hands nations over to him and subdues kings before him. He turns them to dust with his sword, to windblown chaff with his bow.
Romans 920
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Isaiah 459
"Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?
Isaiah 648
Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Jeremiah 186
He said, "Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.
Romans 921
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Romans 144
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Romans 918
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Exodus 421
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 73
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,
Exodus 912
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Exodus 101
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them
Exodus 1020
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 1027
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exodus 1110
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Exodus 144
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.
Exodus 1417
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
Deuteronomy 230
But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.
Joshua 1120
For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
John 1240
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
Romans 916
It does not, therefore, depend on human will or effort, but on God's mercy.
Ephesians 28
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-
Romans 915
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Romans 917
For Scripture says to Pharaoh "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Exodus 916
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
Jeremiah 1016
But the God of Israel is no idol! He is the Creator of everything that exists, including Israel, his own special possession. The LORD of Heaven's Armies is his name!
Jeremiah 5119
But the God of Israel is no idol! He is the Creator of everything that exists, including his people, his own special possession. The LORD of Heaven's Armies is his name!
Acts 424
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
Nehemiah 96
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.
Acts 1415
"Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
Revelation 106
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!
Isaiah 4424
"This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,
Isaiah 4314
This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel "For your sake I will send to Babylon and bring down as fugitives all the Babylonians, in the ships in which they took pride.
Zechariah 121
A prophecy The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares
Isaiah 4424
This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer and Creator "I am the LORD, who made all things. I alone stretched out the heavens. Who was with me when I made the earth?
Isaiah 4518
For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Proverbs 305
Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to all who come to him for protection
Deuteronomy 83
Yes, he humbled you by making you go hungry and then feeding you with manna, a food previously unknown to you and your ancestors. He did it to teach you that people do not live by bread alone; rather, we live by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
Romans 830
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 27
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Isaiah 2612
LORD, you establish peace for us; all that we have accomplished you have done for us.
Isaiah 251
O LORD, you are my God! I will exalt you in praise, I will extol your fame. For you have done extraordinary things, and executed plans made long ago exactly as you decreed.
Psalm 405
Many, LORD my God, are the wonders you have done, the things you planned for us. None can compare with you; were I to speak and tell of your deeds, they would be too many to declare.
Ephesians 111
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 15
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
Philippians 213
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Romans 814
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Jeremiah 152
And if they ask you, 'Where shall we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says "'Those destined for death, to death; those for the sword, to the sword; those for starvation, to starvation; those for captivity, to captivity.'
Jeremiah 164
"They will die of deadly diseases. They will not be mourned or buried but will be like dung lying on the ground. They will perish by sword and famine, and their dead bodies will become food for the birds and the wild animals."
Jeremiah 2410
I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.'"
Jeremiah 4311
He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those destined for death, captivity to those destined for captivity, and the sword to those destined for the sword.
Ezekiel 512
A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.
Ezekiel 1211
Say to them, 'I am a sign to you.' "As I have done, so it will be done to them. They will go into exile as captives.
Ezekiel 3327
"Say this to them 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says As surely as I live, those who are left in the ruins will fall by the sword, those out in the country I will give to the wild animals to be devoured, and those in strongholds and caves will die of a plague.
Zechariah 119
So I said, ?I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another.?
Revelation 1310
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.
Isaiah 485
Therefore I told you these things long ago; before they happened I announced them to you so that you could not say, 'My images brought them about; my wooden image and metal god ordained them.'
Isaiah 448
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
Job 122
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Job 1910
He tears me down on every side till I am gone; he uproots my hope like a tree.
Job 1214
What he tears down cannot be rebuilt; those he imprisons cannot be released.
Job 377
So that everyone he has made may know his work, he stops all people from their labor.
Job 1215
If he holds back the waters, there is drought; if he lets them loose, they devastate the land.
Job 1216
To him belong strength and insight; both deceived and deceiver are his.
Job 1217
He leads rulers away stripped and makes fools of judges.
Job 1219
He leads priests away stripped and overthrows officials long established.
Job 1220
He silences the lips of trusted advisers and takes away the discernment of elders.
Job 174
You have closed their minds to understanding; therefore you will not let them triumph.
Job 1222
He reveals the deep things of darkness and brings utter darkness into the light.
Job 1223
He makes nations great, and destroys them; he enlarges nations, and disperses them.
Job 1224
He deprives the leaders of the earth of their reason; he makes them wander in a trackless waste.
Job 1225
They grope in darkness with no light; he makes them stagger like drunkards.
Job 3836
Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?
Job 3839
"Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions
Job 3841
Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
Job 3917
for God did not endow her with wisdom or give her a share of good sense.
Job 3926
"Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom and spread its wings toward the south?
Job 3927
Does the eagle soar at your command and build its nest on high?
Job 4014
Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you.
Job 4111
Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.
Romans 1135
"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?"
1 Corinthians 1026
for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
Deuteronomy 1014
To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
Job 95
He moves mountains without their knowing it and overturns them in his anger.
Job 422
"I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Job 423
You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
Job 427
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.
Job 428
So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has."
God does everything, and if you read Job you will understand that as well. God is the tormentor, the cause of disease, the deceived and the deceiver are his doing, he is the cause of all delusion, we are at the mercy of God, God can in an instant turn us away and destroy us, and God answers to no authority, God does whatever God wants to do. So please don't ignore the scripture, please understand that there is nothing but God's will in action, you can not do anything, it is God doing it all ultimately.
Job 932
"God is not a mortal like me, so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial.Job 934
The mediator could make God stop beating me, and I would no longer live in terror of his punishment.Job 935
Then I could speak to him without fear, but I cannot do that in my own strength.Job 107
though you know that I am not guilty and that no one can rescue me from your hand?Job 108
"'You formed me with your hands; you made me, yet now you completely destroy me. -
I don't really think that people produce anything themselves, but that Allah produces everything, even what the people do, and everything is from Allah ultimately, even down to the actions that people do.
Allah causes suffering to anyone Allah wills, and Allah can make that suffering come from the actions of the individual or from some other information, but it is all coming from Allah, and it can be done regardless of any injustice a person might have done, and it can be done in response to injustice the people have done, and what they do, is what Allah wills them to do.
Peace FreedomStands
What is your understanding of free will and accountability for humans if "what they do is, what Allah wills them to do"?
If we are forced to do what Allah wills us to do and we have no free choice then what is the justice for our accountability?
I hope you are not mixing predestination with Mashe'at of Allah. -
Peace FreedomStands
What is your understanding of free will and accountability for humans if "what they do is, what Allah wills them to do"?
If we are forced to do what Allah wills us to do and we have no free choice then what is the justice for our accountability?
I hope you are not mixing predestination with Mashe'at of Allah.I think you may be served well by clicking my username and clicking the thing that will show you all my posts to get an idea of what I am saying
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=256713
There is no other "force" besides Allah ultimately, but such is not a concern really, so on the immediate level, and on the level of what appears to us to be true, we appear to be able to make decisions and choices, and should choose to do what benefits us rather than what harms us in the short and the long term, the best being the most lasting in good, the worst being the most lasting in bad.
If the Ultimate power and control of Allah disturbs you and boggles the mind too much, then you need not concern yourself with such matters, though I have outlined it very clearly throughout my writing which you can see on the page that has all my posts collected, which I highly recommend you go through if possible.
The "big picture" is that Allah is the "free will" that "wills" everything that exists, and everything that exists is "information" and nothing can operate on its own, everything is the creation of Allah supported by Allah (it even says this about the use of magic, nothing operates without Allah willing it to be so, there is no thought or desire that is not Allah creating it, we create nothing at all), it is all powered by Allah, and Allah makes that clear repeatedly in the Qur'an as well, and even what appears to be our decision and our will, is actually Allah doing it all. If Allah harms someone, Allah is free to do whatever Allah wills.
If this concept is too much, then put it aside so that you do not lose hope, or meditate on it so that you do lose hope in anything that might be false, since it is important to understand the Surrender.
Meanwhile, on the apparently level, of limited information, yes we appear to have choices, yes we do whatever we think of doing, we make decisions, the decisions may lead us to eventual harm or eventual benefit, and all that is true, it is the picture we see and can easily comprehend and seems obvious to us. Thus are also many deceived, because they are not allowed to realize that Allah is the real plotter, the one who leads people on by what he makes them.
Allah has said that there will be a Judgment day, in which those proven to be bad by Allahs will, shall find their habitation to be the fire. Allah created them, created everything they were "able" to do, created the fire, created all the thoughts and events involved, set the time of their life and the place of their death, and everything else as you will see in my posts that quote extensively from the Qur'an.
The largely modern "western" concept of "free will" is often a form of shirk when not examined carefully, claiming that people create their own thoughts, that are left freely moving, and not understanding Allah is the one upholding all reality itself and all animation of information is done by Allah, there is no other animating force, and nothing roams as it pleases but only as Allah wills.
What we deem this moment as Justice is irrelevant, Allah can create anything and convince us entirely of it, he can make what we think now is bad to seem good, and what we think now is good to seem bad, Allah can make it that the killing of children is suddenly the highest order of justice, and can do whatever Allah wills, but this moment, Allah has made it the way it is, and created this specific idea of justice that you and I may be experiencing, and created the idea of judgment day, and of hell for the disbelievers, and so on. Though Allah is not bound to anything, and Allah alone is the authority who determines anything.
So please check out my numerous quotes and posts that I've made recently, and once you have read through them, please correct me on my thinking if you do not find yourself agreeing with those quotes or my interpretation of them, so that I may go aright.
I am not disagreeing with you, we, with our own hands, do evil or good, and bring it about, but the bigger picture is that it is not done by us really, no one can be guided and no one can go astray save my Allah willing every moment of it, every bit of what is animated is created by God, from our thoughts to our deeds, and Allah is writing the story, and Allah chooses some to be the ones who are harmed and punished, others to be the ones who are spared and rewarded, and Allah does all this freely, throughout the persons life, and Allah is not remote or far away, but is the base and foundation on which all information relies in order to exist and move.
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Samira,
In 117 it becomes obvious with rule/dominion/might for the word in question. Throne is just a lame interpretation.
Aersh also literally on a letter by letter basis means "Possess Foundation/Concrete Charge/Association", i.e. in an easier language rule or dominion or "have the position of power" but yet non physical obviously.
This is just ONE show of the weakness of the mainstream way of interpreting the discourse. It does not at all follow a letter by letter meaning pattern which is hinted at in Quran using the so-called initials.
Have faith
Man of Faith, you have a very different way of interpretation that changes practically the whole sentence, so that is more understandable. But for people who use traditional Arabic dictionaries, I wonder how they would translate the verses that I had posted earlier quoting on the throne, if they use the word 'Aarsh' as 'dominion', such as
407 Those who carry the Throne and all those surrounding it glorify the praise of their Lord, and believe in Him, and they seek forgiveness for those who have believed "Our Lord, You encompass all things with mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repented and followed Your path, and spare them the agony of Hell."
6917 And the angels will be on its borders; and the Throne of your Lord will be carried, above them on that Day, by eight.
117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water; so as to test who from among you works the best. And when you say "You will be resurrected after the death," those who have rejected say "This is but clear magic!"
Man of Faith, if it is possible, can you show your translations for the above verses? Thanks.
Peace,
Samira
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I am not disagreeing with you, we, with our own hands, do evil or good, and bring it about, but the bigger picture is that it is not done by us really, no one can be guided and no one can go astray save my Allah willing every moment of it, every bit of what is animated is created by God, from our thoughts to our deeds, and Allah is writing the story, and Allah chooses some to be the ones who are harmed and punished, others to be the ones who are spared and rewarded, and Allah does all this freely, throughout the persons life, and Allah is not remote or far away, but is the base and foundation on which all information relies in order to exist and move.
To be honest, the God FreedomStands is describing is a quite seriously messed up God, who is narcissistic by also calling Himself 'Most Compassionate' and 'Most Merciful'. There is no love in this God. This God is out here to make creation for the purpose of playing with them; like a child who owns toys, and outwardly the toys appear moving on their own, but it is the child who is actually guiding the toys around, and fakes happiness when a toy does something right and rewards that toy, and fakes anger when a toy does something wrong and cruelly punishes it by various means such as ripping the toy's head apart and other similar stuff.
We need to be careful on what qualities of God we imprint in our minds, because often times as human beings we tend to imitate the qualities of one that we most look up to. This is one reason why I got in this truth seeking journey in the first place.
Peace.
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To be honest, the God FreedomStands is describing is a quite seriously messed up God, who is narcissistic by also calling Himself 'Most Compassionate' and 'Most Merciful'. There is no love in this God. This God is out here to make creation for the purpose of playing with them; like a child who owns toys, and outwardly the toys appear moving on their own, but it is the child who is actually guiding the toys around, and fakes happiness when a toy does something right and rewards that toy, and fakes anger when a toy does something wrong and cruelly punishes it by various means such as ripping the toy's head apart and other similar stuff.
We need to be careful on what qualities of God we imprint in our minds, because often times as human beings we tend to imitate the qualities of one that we most look up to. This is one reason why I got in this truth seeking journey in the first place.
Peace.
My God is backed up by scriptures from around the world. No, my strategy is not to be cruel, my strategy is to "Do unto others as you would have God do unto to you" which is clued in the Qur'an when it tells people to be forgiving and says things like "would you not want to be forgiven?". I shower people with gifts and time and care just as I want God to shower me with gifts.
The God I am talking about is not a child, nor an adult man, nor a motherly woman, nor any of these things you might imagine or hope for, it is not your Father, nor your Mother, nor your Brother or Sister, nor your Uncle or Aunt.
Allah is not a human being at all, we are not made in the image of God, who has no image, and we are nothing like God, who alone is the power. All emotions that you know as a human are created Allah. Allah is the "most compassionate" because Allah literally encompasses all the knowledge, thus knowing fully your experiences inside and out, meaning Allah knows fully what you feel and think "as you", meaning the knowledge of "being you" is experienced by and known to Allah completely, that is the meaning of the actual word compassion and empathy, to feel what the other feels, and only Allah is truly capable of this, you can not feel what another feels or know what they feel or think, only Allah knows such things, literally the only compassionate one, who experiences all the information Allah creates and knows it thoroughly.
You are imagining a human being or something if you think Allah creating suffering is anything like a human being causing suffering on another human being, Allah is not a human, Allah is what manifests all information in existence, it doesn't come from anywhere else, so if it exists, it is Allah who made it so.
So who believes in the God of FreedomStands? The God of FreedomStands is the God mentioned in the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible's Old and New Testament, The Avesta of the Zoroastrians, and across the whole world, in China as Shangdi, in Ancient Egypt as Amun, in the Greek language as the Hypsistos, in Rome as the Optimus Maximus, in the Aztec lands as Tezcatlipoca
Tezcatlipoca had many epithets which alluded to different aspects of his deity Titlacauan ("We are his Slaves", Ipalnemoani ("He by whom we live", Necoc Yaotl("Enemy of Both Sides", Tloque Nahuaque ("Lord of the Near and the Nigh" and Yohualli ?ecatl ("Night, Wind", Ome acatl ("Two Reed", Ilhuicahua Tlalticpaque ("Possessor of the Sky and Earth".
As Wakan Tanka, Gitche Manitou, Viracocha.
As Vishnu (Pervading) by the Vaisnavites, Shiva (Auspicious) by the Saivites, Brahman by the Smrti.
There is only one, El, Ellah, Allaha, Allalu, Eloah, Ellus, Alalus, Orotalt, Oulluein, El Shaddai (God The Destroyer), El Elyon (God the Most High), or whatever term you may call him, Odin, Wodan, Perkele, Ylijumala, and whatever else.
Everyone in the world speaks of the Ultimate, everyone in the world was informed of the same Ultimate.
Now who the Atheists call Nothing and say "Everything comes from Nothing" and who some call "Fate" or "Luck" or "Destiny" or "Randomness" or "Chaos", and Khaos was also the Greek term in the writings of Hesiod and others for the originator of everything that is like nothing.
My God is not a human being, you will have to shed the idolatry in the mind and perform an internal iconoclasm in order to realize the Surrender I think.
My God is the Ultimate, the creator of all information, all your experiences, what you are and what you do, it is not a man in the sky in some remote place who is sitting there thinking like a human being thinks.
My God is like Death, is like Life, my God is the only one worthy of Worship and to whom the title God is solely appropriate.
What is your God? One that is bounded and limited? One that must follow rules? One that is not free accomplish everything and has obstacles? One whose "hand" slips and does not always succeed? One who is disappointed because some error was made and its will is countered?
Who here does not worship the God of FreedomStands? The God which FreedomStands speaks of and which FreedomStands uses quotes from the scriptures to back up what is being said?
When I speak of the Ultimate, I am speaking of "Whatever is Actually the Ultimate" I am not just accusing some being of being the Ultimate, I am saying what by definition would be the Ultimate is what I worship, and these are the qualities
That it is like nothing, not made of information, but makes all information, which includes everything absolutely from your thoughts to whatever exists because all that is "information" and you create nothing at all and are not a "co-creator".
That is not a human being, nor thinks like a human being, but encompasses and animates and "knows" all information entirely, thus experiences everything fully in every way it might exist, and so is literally the only true Compassionate one, by definition, literally knows what you know, and knows what you know not and can not know.
That is the controller of everything, determines everything, sends you forth, manages everything, down to the place you die, down to all the circumstances that may lead to eating food, down to the information that was your parents meeting and how they met and how they had children and what children, Allah does all this, Allah is the writer and the speaker of the tale of your life from the day you are born to the day you die, to the day you are raised up and after.
So which of you does not worship the God of FreedomStands? Which of you worships something less than the Ultimate? Which of you deem yourself "self-sufficient"? Which of you deem yourself "powers" besides Allah who can counter the will of Allah or create something of your own, including thoughts by your own power?
I want to know which of you deny the God that FreedomStands describes.
I want to know which of you deny the verses of the Qur'an that I have shown if you click my name and find all my posts.
I want to know which of you deny the description of Allah as absolutely Ultimate.
I want to know also who believes in the God that I speak of, and who acknowledges their state of total surrender willingly or unwillingly to Allah, the Ultimate that FreedomStands speaks of.
383-
Do they seek, perchance, a faith other than in God, although it is unto Him that whatever is in the heavens and on earth surrenders itself, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him all must return?
Say "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the prophets we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.1315-
And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours.
Say Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?-- Say Allah. Say Do you take then besides Him guardians who do not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say Are the blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme.3327
And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.2106
Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?3962-
GOD is the Creator of all things, and He alone has the power to determine the fate of all things.
His are the keys of the heavens and the earth, and they who disbelieve the revelations of Allah - such are they who are the losers.
Say ?Is it, then, something other than God that you bid me to worship, O you who are unaware ??
But it has already been revealed to thee,- as it was to those before thee,- "If thou wert to make partners (with Allah), truly fruitless will be thy work (in life), and thou wilt surely be in the ranks of those who lose (all spiritual good)".
Nay, but worship Allah, and be of those who give thanks.
And they esteem not Allah as He hath the right to be esteemed, when the whole earth is His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens are rolled in His right hand. Glorified is He and High Exalted from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him).
And the trumpet is blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are in the earth swoon away, save him whom Allah willeth. Then it is blown a second time, and behold them standing waiting!
Do you deem yourself a partner? Do you deem that you have some share in power? Do you think you can will your way to paradise? Do you think that the good you appear to do is by your own power? Do you think that the evil that is done, was not created?
3189
To Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; and Allah hath power over all things.2148
And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.7630
But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.
He maketh whom He will to enter His mercy, and for evil-doers hath prepared a painful doom.1839-
And "Alas, if thou hadst but said, on entering thy garden, `Whatever God wills there is no power save with God!' Although, as thou seest, I have less wealth and offspring than thou,
yet it may well be that my Sustainer will give me something better than thy garden -just as He may let loose a calamity out of heaven upon this , so that it becomes a heap of barren dust
or its water sinks deep into the ground, so that thou wilt never be able to find it again!"
And his fruitful gardens were encompassed , and there he was, wringing his hands over all that he had spent on that which now lay waste, with its trellises caved in; and he could but say, "Oh, would that I had not attributed divine powers to any but my Sustainer!"
And he had no troop of men to help him as against Allah, nor could he save himself.
For thus it is all protective power belongs to God alone, the True One. He is the best to grant recompense, and the best to determine what is to be.
AND PROPOUND unto them the parable of the life of this world like the water which We send down from the skies, and which is absorbed by the plants of the earth but they turn into dry. stubble which the winds blow freely about. And it is God who determines all things.1313-
and the thunder glorifies Him with His praise and the angels do so too in awe of Him, and He sends His thunderbolts to strike anyone He pleases, yet they dispute about God, who is inexorable in His power.
Unto Him is due all prayer aiming at the Ultimate Truth, since those whom men invoke instead of God cannot respond to them in any way - but like one who stretches his open hands towards water, that it will reach his mouth, the while it never reaches him. Hence, the prayer of those who deny the truth amounts to no more than losing oneself in grievous error.
And before God prostrate themselves, willingly or unwillingly, all that are in the heavens and on earth, as do their shadows in the mornings and the evenings.6111
And even if We were to send down angels unto them, and if the dead were to speak unto them and We were to assemble before them, face to face, all the things , they would still not believe unless God so willed But most of them are entirely unaware.
Thus have We appointed unto every prophet an adversary - devils of humankind and jinn who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile. If thy Lord willed, they would not do so; so leave them alone with their devising;2445
And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.6719-
Have they not seen the birds above them spreading out their wings and closing them? Naught upholdeth them save the Beneficent. Lo! He is Seer of all things.
Or who is he that will be an army unto you to help you instead of the Beneficent? The disbelievers are in naught but illusion.
Or is there any that could provide you with sustenance if He should withhold His provision ? Nay, but they stubbornly persist in their disdain and in their headlong flight !6723
Say (unto them, O Muhammad) He it is who gave you being, and hath assigned unto you ears and eyes and hearts. Small thanks give ye!
Say "It is He who has multiplied you on earth; and it is unto Him that you shall be gathered ."449
Hast thou not seen those who praise themselves for purity? Nay, Allah purifieth whom He will, and they will not be wronged even the hair upon a date-stone.
See, how they invent lies about Allah! That of itself is flagrant sin.
Art thou not aware of those who, having been granted their share of the divine writ, believe in baseless mysteries and in the powers of evil, and maintain that those who are bent on denying the truth are more surely guided than those who have attained to faith?
Those are they whom Allah hath cursed, and he whom Allah hath cursed, thou (O Muhammad) wilt find for him no helper.
Have they a share in Gods dominion or power? If they did, they would not give others so much as the groove of a date stone.1326
Allah amplifies and straitens the means of subsistence for whom He pleases; and they rejoice in this world's life, and this world's life is nothing compared with the hereafter but a temporary enjoyment.2719
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said "O my Lord! make me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."2438
That Allah may reward them with the best of what they did, and increase reward for them of His bounty. Allah giveth blessings without stint to whom He will.6125
And whomsoever God wills to guide, his bosom He opens wide with willingness towards self-surrender ; and whomsoever He wills to let go astray, his bosom He causes to be tight and constricted, as if he were climbing unto the skies it is thus that God inflicts horror upon those who will not believe.Thank you for reading this, I truly appreciate it!
4917
Many people think that they have bestowed a favour upon thee by having surrendered . Say thou ?Deem not your surrender a favour unto me nay, but it is God who bestows a favour upon you by guiding you the way to faith - if you are true to your word!?2421
O ye who believe! Follow not the footsteps of the devil. Unto whomsoever followeth the footsteps of the devil, lo! he commandeth impropriety and what is wrong. Had it not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy unto you, not one of you would ever have grown pure. But Allah causeth whom He will to grow. And Allah is Hearer, Knower.7456
they will only take heed if God so wills He is the Lord who is worthy to be feared the Lord of forgiveness. -
Thanks for your reply FreedomStands.
My blessings to this God in the scriptures. The scriptures are most likely distorted in their explanation. Imagine if more people followed the scriptures literally this way. This world would have been hell on earth already.
No, my strategy is not to be cruel, my strategy is to "Do unto others as you would have God do unto to you" which is clued in the Qur'an when it tells people to be forgiving and says things like "would you not want to be forgiven?". I shower people with gifts and time and care just as I want God to shower me with gifts.
The karma part makes more sense though.
Peace.
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I think you may be served well by clicking my username and clicking the thing that will show you all my posts to get an idea of what I am saying
Thanks Freedomstand I'll go through your posts when I have enough time. Presently think about what Samira has concluded.
To be honest, the God FreedomStands is describing is a quite seriously messed up God, who is narcissistic by also calling Himself 'Most Compassionate' and 'Most Merciful'. There is no love in this God. This God is out here to make creation for the purpose of playing with them; like a child who owns toys, and outwardly the toys appear moving on their own, but it is the child who is actually guiding the toys around, and fakes happiness when a toy does something right and rewards that toy, and fakes anger when a toy does something wrong and cruelly punishes it by various means such as ripping the toy's head apart and other similar stuff.
We need to be careful on what qualities of God we imprint in our minds, because often times as human beings we tend to imitate the qualities of one that we most look up to. This is one reason why I got in this truth seeking journey in the first place.
Peace.
Well said Samira. I believe in divine justice which points towards freedom of choice and then accountability.
If the Ultimate power and control of Allah disturbs you and boggles the mind too much, then you need not concern yourself with such matters, though I have outlined it very clearly throughout my writing which you can see on the page that has all my posts collected, which I highly recommend you go through if possible.
No I have no problem with accepting that Allah has the ultimate power and control. I also believe that everything is created by his command but then He has also given us the ability to choose and be responsible for that. As per 763
We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful.
Allah has said that there will be a Judgment day, in which those proven to be bad by Allahs will, shall find their habitation to be the fire. Allah created them, created everything they were "able" to do, created the fire, created all the thoughts and events involved, set the time of their life and the place of their death, and everything else as you will see in my posts that quote extensively from the Qur'an.
If we don't have free will and act as puppets then why it has to be proved on judgement day. You can only judge someone if one is free to act. How can you punish someone who has to act as per your command? Is it justice?
The largely modern "western" concept of "free will" is often a form of shirk when not examined carefully, claiming that people create their own thoughts, that are left freely moving, and not understanding Allah is the one upholding all reality itself and all animation of information is done by Allah, there is no other animating force, and nothing roams as it pleases but only as Allah wills.
Allah has made rules for his creation. He has given us option to choose from different paths. Whatever path we choose its results are pre-decided as per His laws. He created fire but its our choice to use it for our benefit like cooking or heating or we can use it to destroy things by burning.
So please check out my numerous quotes and posts that I've made recently, and once you have read through them, please correct me on my thinking if you do not find yourself agreeing with those quotes or my interpretation of them, so that I may go aright.
Its not a matter of correcting you but to learn correct concepts from Quran by mutual discussion. Everyone is responsible for his/her understanding. Whatever we come across we have to use our God given faculties to evaluate it as we will be asked about it as per 1736
Do not reach conclusions about that of which you have no knowledge. (Using your
senses and intellect, you must verify it for yourself.) Surely, the hearing, the
sight and the faculty of reasoning ? all of them ? will be questioned.I am not disagreeing with you, we, with our own hands, do evil or good, and bring it about, but the bigger picture is that it is not done by us really, no one can be guided and no one can go astray save my Allah willing every moment of it, every bit of what is animated is created by God, from our thoughts to our deeds, and Allah is writing the story, and Allah chooses some to be the ones who are harmed and punished, others to be the ones who are spared and rewarded, and Allah does all this freely, throughout the persons life, and Allah is not remote or far away, but is the base and foundation on which all information relies in order to exist and move.
Allah guides him who wants to be guided. So again choice is ours. If we ask for guidance and choose the right path then Allah guides us to the right path.
Those of little understanding among people say, 'What has turned them from the
Qiblah they (the Jews) used to follow? Say, 'To God belongs East and West.
He guides to the straight path whoever wills (to be guided).Mankind were one single community (but selfishness divided them). So, God sent
Prophets as bearers of good news and warnings. He sent down with them
the scripture in absolute truth that it might judge between people wherein
they differed. But again, out of mutual rivalry, they divided themselves after
all evidence of the Right had come to them! So, God shows the lighted road
to those who would acknowledge the truth and thus resolve their disputes.
And God guides to the straight road him who wills to be guided.
Mankind were one single community (but selfishness divided them). So, God sent
Prophets as bearers of good news and warnings. He sent down with them
the scripture in absolute truth that it might judge between people wherein
they differed. But again, out of mutual rivalry, they divided themselves after
all evidence of the Right had come to them! So, God shows the lighted road
to those who would acknowledge the truth and thus resolve their disputes.
And God guides to the straight road him who wills to be guided.I have to study your claims in more depth because what I have written above is my present understanding. May Allah help us in understanding his book.
Peace
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Hello Novice,
Thank you for your appreciation
No I have no problem with accepting that Allah has the ultimate power and control. I also believe that everything is created by his command but then He has also given us the ability to choose and be responsible for that. As per 763
We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful.
Yeah it makes a lot of sense.
If we don't have free will and act as puppets then why it has to be proved on judgement day. You can only judge someone if one is free to act. How can you punish someone who has to act as per your command? Is it justice?
Very true. FreedomStands' version of God is the plain picture of the height of injustice one could ever come up with. This God sounds worse than the devil, unfortunately. Pardon my words.
Peace.
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Salam all,
Please read in the link below
http//free-minds.org/does-god-lead-people-astray
Peace
The "free will" concern is a Western concern mainly it seems and their terminology. No one has power to do anything save as Allah wills them to or creates them to.
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God decides what will happen yes, but it is a dynamic platform and it is running independently and what we do is from ourselves. God can intervene, but does often not do so because of the purpose of this "simulation". If God wills something nothing can prevent it, but also if God simple lets the platform run independently then it will occur as according to the actions of the users, i.e. the humans.
If things do happen only if God wills then God is very wicked since then God would make the bad happen. But God is completely innocent of what people do and it is a respite given for some time.
Free will exists, unless God decides otherwise. And people who are strongly assimilated with the foundation can also affect it in their own strengthened ways through their good faith. Their faith saves them.
It is of course a complicated mechanism to put oneself into.
Salaam