Do you take the Qur'an literally?
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Freedom,
Interpretation from traditional sectarian sources is more often than not very lackluster. Besides, you over-apply the God's will rule at the cost of coherence. You also leave out logic of other passages to prove your point from the passages that you copy-paste on the forum. I told you that your logic is flawed. The most important is that there is ultimately no reason for us to be in this world if things are according to your reasoning. God would simply be letting us be voodoo dolls in some barbaric experiment for entertainment that has no practical use.
I think your tone is overall starting to turn more aggressive and unfriendly and do you think God is behaving this way?
Your point of view probably makes one miss out on important matters through the fixation that God is the only thing that matter. The behavioral part of faith is the essence of it. But in your reasoning there is no reason to do any good because God is master over you so you cannot do it on your own volition.
Except from that you have basically not come up with anything useful for the past 24 hours as far as I know. We are just going around on the same circular reasoning the whole day and I spelled out big logical issues with your stance.
Do I really have to begin copy-pasting myself to show how inconsistent the claims are?
Salaam
Please do, because they are not illogical or nor are they contradictory to anything. It appears as though you might not be reading them at all because you simply don't want to believe it.
- God wills everything and has power over everything.
- What you perceive as your will is actually the will of God, even if you don't know it.
- God creates whatever he wills (all information, and information includes your thoughts and activities and "what you are" and also "what you will be" just like God develops you in the fetus and then develops you into an adult, and develops you into a king or a pauper or a killer or whatever other "being" or "existence" or "way" God has created for his creation, you are just whatever God tells you you are.
- I am not saying "don't strive" and so it is pretty silly that you keep implying that, I am saying on the immediate level we perceive and make decisions based on the information we are receiving, but on the greater level no matter what it was always the will of God and not our own power or will, this doesn't change at all that you have to strive and all the same messages, just knowing that it is God who is doing it in the end is not going to make it seem like you have no will, that thing you perceive as your will is so intertwined that you can not even tell that it is actually God feeding you the information, it doesn't matter, you still have to do what you will do.
Nothing in this is inconsistent or illogical. It is illogical to say that God created something that God is unhappy with or it is not as God wills, or that God created matter and the body and wants people to leave matter and the body when God made it for them, and it is illogical to say God leaves it up to chance of who will do this or who will be that as if chance has any existence or power on its own, or as if clay vessels can move on their own, it is God animating us all. God writes the book, the whole story, have you not heard of the author of your life, or are you that author who will save yourself? Such is not a humble view.
Your perceiving me as getting aggressive or whatever might just be your own imagination, or it might be real, I have no idea, but right now I was just eating fruit loops and enjoying finding those quotes from the Bible.
Just because God is the author of life and you live by the words that God dictates, does not mean you do not in the immediate level of all these fake things like "time" and "free will" and whatever else, that you must not strive, I have never said "just lay back and do nothing" I was saying that "if you lay back and do nothing, it is because God has made you lay back and do nothing" ultimately, that is "if you are a fool, God has made a fool of you".
Nothing is inconsistent in what I am saying, all the religions say it too, its a normal idea, and its also logical. It is not logical to say that something slipped out of God's hand, that God created a thing for a purpose and that purpose is not achieved, that God doesn't create things which perfectly obey when everything perfectly obeys God, that you command God and God follows after your command and you choose what God creates for you, and all those blasphemies.
It is a very basic idea, if you can't handle the idea, just focus on how you must strive, I never said don't strive, on the immediate level it appears we must, but on the higher level God is writing and willing whatever we end up actually doing.
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Say Nothing will afflict us save what Allah has ordained for us; He is our Patron; and on Allah let the believers rely. -
Well Kafir is pharoah and his mates. Repeated over and over.
the sun and moon and stars and prophets arent.
wealth and children r a ornament.
The point was, Allah brought into existence every moment all of those things, Pharoah didn't create himself, didn't make himself Pharoah, didn't make himself this character in the story, didn't write the book, didn't get blinded or hardened, but was created to be an example and created exactly how he was by Allah ultimately.
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Alright.
Yadda yadda yadda.
I can feel myself making full use of my free will though when I speak or act. Some of it may have been predetermined, but it makes no sense that all of it is. Otherwise I can just sit here and say "bhaw bhaw" all day long and put it all on Allah for making me do so.
Peace.
Why is it so hard to process? If you do that, or if you do this, or if you do another thing, ultimately that was the will of Allah, but on the immediate level you definitely have all the appearance of free choice, and should use it to do good for yourself rather than bad. It is very simple.
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Why is it so hard to process? If you do that, or if you do this, or if you do another thing, ultimately that was the will of Allah, but on the immediate level you definitely have all the appearance of free choice, and should use it to do good for yourself rather than bad. It is very simple.
Why should it bother you what is hard to process by me anyway? Because ultimately according to you we have no free will and it is Allah pulling the reins. So even the concept of something being hard to grasp is due to Allah then and not from me, apparently.
Peace.
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Why should it bother you what is hard to process by me anyway? Because ultimately according to you we have no free will and it is Allah pulling the reins. So even the concept of something being hard to grasp is due to Allah then and not from me, apparently.
Peace.
Absolutely! What you say is correct, even though you might be saying it mockingly. Even our anger, our sadness, and everything else is from Allah, even the frustration one might experience, and our prayer to not be frustrated, etc and there are some who are given the realization of this total state of Surrender and some are not, but it doesn't change the striving or anything on the immediate level, it just gives some comfort when one realizes as well as fear considering what experiences Allah can make us experience!
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and that it is He alone who causes to laugh and to weep; -
Absolutely! What you say is correct, even though you might be saying it mockingly.
My mocking is also from Allah apparently.
Peace.
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My mocking is also from Allah apparently.
Peace.
I know, you're absolutely right.
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My mocking is also from Allah apparently.
Peace.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607118.msg361787#msg361787
As you can see here, after many of the bolded sections it says "We have made enemies" "We have set up enemies" and stuff like that.
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Trust me Freedom, I have read both Quran and the Biblical scriptures enough times that you do not have to copy-paste so many passages to prove something that you misunderstand.
Salaam
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Trust me Freedom, I have read both Quran and the Biblical scriptures enough times that you do not have to copy-paste so many passages to prove something that you misunderstand.
Salaam
So you didn't care to look at them anymore? Are you so sure I misunderstand? Well, it may be that I misunderstand, so please do help my understand!
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607118.msg361787#msg361787
As you can see here, after many of the bolded sections it says "We have made enemies" "We have set up enemies" and stuff like that.
Alright. But that's upto Allah's will apparently, whether you like it or not. Since I can't really personally do anything about it and only Allah can (since he was controlling us in the first place, throughout), I will remain as I am.
Peace.
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If you are not God, you do not know that.
Salaam
That is what people are having so much trouble with regarding what I am telling them.
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Alright. But that's upto Allah's will apparently, whether you like it or not. Since I can't really personally do anything about it and only Allah can (since he was controlling us in the first place, throughout), I will remain as I am.
Peace.
You will do whatever you will do, and what you should do is try your best, and yes, as you said, you will never be able to actually do it but only if Allah wills, so if Allah wills you will will it and accomplish whatever you accomplish. It is quite simple, but some people are not allowed to understand it seems.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Argument over free will and predestination is a perfect recipe for wasting time and energy on matters that we each interpret based on the limitations of our capacity of understanding ? a perfect chicken and egg argument. Predestination is true and free will is equally true. We have our free will to earn our destiny not to create it. We do as we will so that we can bear the burden of our own will but we do not will unless Allah wills/authorizes.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaikum.
Argument over free will and predestination is a perfect recipe for wasting time and energy on matters that we each interpret based on the limitations of our capacity of understanding ? a perfect chicken and egg argument. Predestination is true and free will is equally true. We have our free will to earn our destiny not to create it. We do as we will so that we can bear the burden of our own will but we do not will unless Allah wills/authorizes.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanIt is absolutely a waste of time, because I was never even arguing about it in the first place. Everyone seems to have misunderstood what I have been saying, and misrepresenting it. I explained my points in a recent post, and they have nothing at all to do with the argument of "predestination" or anything, which has nothing to do with me at all even though people have misunderstood my usage of words or quotes and apparently everything. In other words, they have been arguing with their own imaginary figures, and nothing I have said is a matter of argument in the first place.
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If you are not God, you do not know that.
Salaam
Huruf, how about you check out the previous posts exchanged between me and FreedomStands before going into conclusions? Thanks.
Peace.
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You will do whatever you will do, and what you should do is try your best, and yes, as you said, you will never be able to actually do it but only if Allah wills, so if Allah wills you will will it and accomplish whatever you accomplish. It is quite simple, but some people are not allowed to understand it seems.
Well that is Allah's will as well apparently. I don't know why I should bother to think in the first place if it is Allah who is being the marionettist in the first place. Hence FreedomStands needs to acknowledge more of the concept of free will for him to acknowledge that yes, we do have free will, besides Allah controlling us, for us to make decisions.
I do not quite blame FreedomStands for his position, for those who may be disturbed by his opinions on free will. He is using the Quran after all. I already said I feel the Quran has been quite badly mistranslated and misinterpreted, if it is indeed a scripture divinely inspired by Allah, so the many verses regarding the concept of free will are also distortions.
For example, see these verses
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If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance but the Word from Me will come true, ?I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together".1693
If Allah had willed he would have made you one nation. But he leads astray whom he will and guides whom he will. But you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.Yikes. If I didn't have some additional inspiration I would most likely have ran away from this religion already with fear and to protect my conscience. This God looks messed up from the way He controls people's free will and then rewards or punishes them for it; there is no denying it for a more rational minded person. But then since many people are partly indoctrinated when it comes to religion, they may see nothing really wrong with such verses. In that case they should definitely side with FreedomStands, on the points he made which did in fact go hand in hand with these verses.
Peace.
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Huruf, how about you check out the previous posts exchanged between me and FreedomStands before going into conclusions? Thanks.
Peace.
Haha, our epic battle! People have a tendency to say "I don't know" and in many cases that is great, but when it comes to the essential logic of what is being referred to when the term "God" is used (and most often people are talking about something different from what I am talking about when I say "God" or "Allah" since people tend towards ideas of some kind of form or being of some kind, even if invisible, who is somehow human or humanoid and is restricted to human thinking methods) it is extremely important in my opinion that we "know" what we are talking about and that it is based strictly on logic. Many people "know" many things, even the mad man "knows" what he saw, that he really experienced some information, but that is all we ever experience, information, be it mystical or what we call "real", it is all just information, and the distinguishing of various things is where people end up in disputes, and also causes them to attach to concepts and fight for concepts which may be meaningful in some ways but are ultimately arbitrary and of little worth or value in general concerning those grander things. People somehow think I have been presenting a "system" here, or "my ideas", when I am actually trying to give the key to obliterating "systems" and this was something known across the world and not "my ideas". That there is no funnel or science or system being worked through, but if you look even on the "quantum level" you'll see things are just "spontaneously generated" or appear to be, and that is basically what I am talking about, that it is the generation of information, we exist only this moment, we have no knowledge beyond what we have access to this moment, including our thoughts and our memories, "time" and everything else are just concepts in our existence this moment, and none of these things are "necessary", any sort of information can be generated freely and instantly, and that is a complete removal of all "systems" meaning it is "direct generation", not "funneled" or "necessary system" based "conditioned" generation.
So ideas like "God is unjust" or whatever become irrelevant, if one just realizes it is generation of information in the moment and you only ever know what is able to you.
All these things then become a distraction in some sense, like the "laws of science" and people thinking they are necessary or must exist, they really don't need to, and things didn't "need" to be the way they are, they could've been any other way too. The Qur'an backs up this idea as do the other books, and it isn't anything wrong or bad I'm saying really, just that there is direct information creation, and whatever is information (which is everything other than what is non-information, and non-information is not individuated so always "one" in a sense and "unique" or "unlike things" or "unlike any information" is directly generated, not from afar, but immediately as it is. Everyone seems to be misunderstanding what I'm saying since they think its just a "system" I'm making up, its not a "system" I'm making up, I'm saying all the systems we know of are just information generated and existing in our experience in the moment we experience it. It is the removal of all "distance" and "intermediaries" and "systems in between" and it is necessary otherwise people are literally making God "conditioned" and "partnered". I fear this will be misunderstood as well. Lets see.