Do you take the Qur'an literally?
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My mocking is also from Allah apparently.
Peace.
I know, you're absolutely right.
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My mocking is also from Allah apparently.
Peace.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607118.msg361787#msg361787
As you can see here, after many of the bolded sections it says "We have made enemies" "We have set up enemies" and stuff like that.
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Trust me Freedom, I have read both Quran and the Biblical scriptures enough times that you do not have to copy-paste so many passages to prove something that you misunderstand.
Salaam
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Trust me Freedom, I have read both Quran and the Biblical scriptures enough times that you do not have to copy-paste so many passages to prove something that you misunderstand.
Salaam
So you didn't care to look at them anymore? Are you so sure I misunderstand? Well, it may be that I misunderstand, so please do help my understand!
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607118.msg361787#msg361787
As you can see here, after many of the bolded sections it says "We have made enemies" "We have set up enemies" and stuff like that.
Alright. But that's upto Allah's will apparently, whether you like it or not. Since I can't really personally do anything about it and only Allah can (since he was controlling us in the first place, throughout), I will remain as I am.
Peace.
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If you are not God, you do not know that.
Salaam
That is what people are having so much trouble with regarding what I am telling them.
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Alright. But that's upto Allah's will apparently, whether you like it or not. Since I can't really personally do anything about it and only Allah can (since he was controlling us in the first place, throughout), I will remain as I am.
Peace.
You will do whatever you will do, and what you should do is try your best, and yes, as you said, you will never be able to actually do it but only if Allah wills, so if Allah wills you will will it and accomplish whatever you accomplish. It is quite simple, but some people are not allowed to understand it seems.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Argument over free will and predestination is a perfect recipe for wasting time and energy on matters that we each interpret based on the limitations of our capacity of understanding ? a perfect chicken and egg argument. Predestination is true and free will is equally true. We have our free will to earn our destiny not to create it. We do as we will so that we can bear the burden of our own will but we do not will unless Allah wills/authorizes.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaikum.
Argument over free will and predestination is a perfect recipe for wasting time and energy on matters that we each interpret based on the limitations of our capacity of understanding ? a perfect chicken and egg argument. Predestination is true and free will is equally true. We have our free will to earn our destiny not to create it. We do as we will so that we can bear the burden of our own will but we do not will unless Allah wills/authorizes.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanIt is absolutely a waste of time, because I was never even arguing about it in the first place. Everyone seems to have misunderstood what I have been saying, and misrepresenting it. I explained my points in a recent post, and they have nothing at all to do with the argument of "predestination" or anything, which has nothing to do with me at all even though people have misunderstood my usage of words or quotes and apparently everything. In other words, they have been arguing with their own imaginary figures, and nothing I have said is a matter of argument in the first place.
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If you are not God, you do not know that.
Salaam
Huruf, how about you check out the previous posts exchanged between me and FreedomStands before going into conclusions? Thanks.
Peace.
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You will do whatever you will do, and what you should do is try your best, and yes, as you said, you will never be able to actually do it but only if Allah wills, so if Allah wills you will will it and accomplish whatever you accomplish. It is quite simple, but some people are not allowed to understand it seems.
Well that is Allah's will as well apparently. I don't know why I should bother to think in the first place if it is Allah who is being the marionettist in the first place. Hence FreedomStands needs to acknowledge more of the concept of free will for him to acknowledge that yes, we do have free will, besides Allah controlling us, for us to make decisions.
I do not quite blame FreedomStands for his position, for those who may be disturbed by his opinions on free will. He is using the Quran after all. I already said I feel the Quran has been quite badly mistranslated and misinterpreted, if it is indeed a scripture divinely inspired by Allah, so the many verses regarding the concept of free will are also distortions.
For example, see these verses
3213
If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance but the Word from Me will come true, ?I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together".1693
If Allah had willed he would have made you one nation. But he leads astray whom he will and guides whom he will. But you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.Yikes. If I didn't have some additional inspiration I would most likely have ran away from this religion already with fear and to protect my conscience. This God looks messed up from the way He controls people's free will and then rewards or punishes them for it; there is no denying it for a more rational minded person. But then since many people are partly indoctrinated when it comes to religion, they may see nothing really wrong with such verses. In that case they should definitely side with FreedomStands, on the points he made which did in fact go hand in hand with these verses.
Peace.
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Huruf, how about you check out the previous posts exchanged between me and FreedomStands before going into conclusions? Thanks.
Peace.
Haha, our epic battle! People have a tendency to say "I don't know" and in many cases that is great, but when it comes to the essential logic of what is being referred to when the term "God" is used (and most often people are talking about something different from what I am talking about when I say "God" or "Allah" since people tend towards ideas of some kind of form or being of some kind, even if invisible, who is somehow human or humanoid and is restricted to human thinking methods) it is extremely important in my opinion that we "know" what we are talking about and that it is based strictly on logic. Many people "know" many things, even the mad man "knows" what he saw, that he really experienced some information, but that is all we ever experience, information, be it mystical or what we call "real", it is all just information, and the distinguishing of various things is where people end up in disputes, and also causes them to attach to concepts and fight for concepts which may be meaningful in some ways but are ultimately arbitrary and of little worth or value in general concerning those grander things. People somehow think I have been presenting a "system" here, or "my ideas", when I am actually trying to give the key to obliterating "systems" and this was something known across the world and not "my ideas". That there is no funnel or science or system being worked through, but if you look even on the "quantum level" you'll see things are just "spontaneously generated" or appear to be, and that is basically what I am talking about, that it is the generation of information, we exist only this moment, we have no knowledge beyond what we have access to this moment, including our thoughts and our memories, "time" and everything else are just concepts in our existence this moment, and none of these things are "necessary", any sort of information can be generated freely and instantly, and that is a complete removal of all "systems" meaning it is "direct generation", not "funneled" or "necessary system" based "conditioned" generation.
So ideas like "God is unjust" or whatever become irrelevant, if one just realizes it is generation of information in the moment and you only ever know what is able to you.
All these things then become a distraction in some sense, like the "laws of science" and people thinking they are necessary or must exist, they really don't need to, and things didn't "need" to be the way they are, they could've been any other way too. The Qur'an backs up this idea as do the other books, and it isn't anything wrong or bad I'm saying really, just that there is direct information creation, and whatever is information (which is everything other than what is non-information, and non-information is not individuated so always "one" in a sense and "unique" or "unlike things" or "unlike any information" is directly generated, not from afar, but immediately as it is. Everyone seems to be misunderstanding what I'm saying since they think its just a "system" I'm making up, its not a "system" I'm making up, I'm saying all the systems we know of are just information generated and existing in our experience in the moment we experience it. It is the removal of all "distance" and "intermediaries" and "systems in between" and it is necessary otherwise people are literally making God "conditioned" and "partnered". I fear this will be misunderstood as well. Lets see.
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Huruf, if you have a rational comeback to my opinion regarding the above verses I had pointed out, I would welcome it, since I am sensing you don't like what I post a lot of the time. Otherwise if you would use ad hominem responses, sarcasm or a non-rational comeback, that wouldn't exactly be something welcomed from my side.
Peace.
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Haha, our epic battle! People have a tendency to say "I don't know" and in many cases that is great, but when it comes to the essential logic of what is being referred to when the term "God" is used (and most often people are talking about something different from what I am talking about when I say "God" or "Allah" since people tend towards ideas of some kind of form or being of some kind, even if invisible, who is somehow human or humanoid and is restricted to human thinking methods) it is extremely important in my opinion that we "know" what we are talking about and that it is based strictly on logic. Many people "know" many things, even the mad man "knows" what he saw, that he really experienced some information, but that is all we ever experience, information, be it mystical or what we call "real", it is all just information, and the distinguishing of various things is where people end up in disputes, and also causes them to attach to concepts and fight for concepts which may be meaningful in some ways but are ultimately arbitrary and of little worth or value in general concerning those grander things. People somehow think I have been presenting a "system" here, or "my ideas", when I am actually trying to give the key to obliterating "systems" and this was something known across the world and not "my ideas". That there is no funnel or science or system being worked through, but if you look even on the "quantum level" you'll see things are just "spontaneously generated" or appear to be, and that is basically what I am talking about, that it is the generation of information, we exist only this moment, we have no knowledge beyond what we have access to this moment, including our thoughts and our memories, "time" and everything else are just concepts in our existence this moment, and none of these things are "necessary", any sort of information can be generated freely and instantly, and that is a complete removal of all "systems" meaning it is "direct generation", not "funneled" or "necessary system" based "conditioned" generation.
So ideas like "God is unjust" or whatever become irrelevant, if one just realizes it is generation of information in the moment and you only ever know what is able to you.
All these things then become a distraction in some sense, like the "laws of science" and people thinking they are necessary or must exist, they really don't need to, and things didn't "need" to be the way they are, they could've been any other way too. The Qur'an backs up this idea as do the other books, and it isn't anything wrong or bad I'm saying really, just that there is direct information creation, and whatever is information (which is everything other than what is non-information, and non-information is not individuated so always "one" in a sense and "unique" or "unlike things" or "unlike any information" is directly generated, not from afar, but immediately as it is. Everyone seems to be misunderstanding what I'm saying since they think its just a "system" I'm making up, its not a "system" I'm making up, I'm saying all the systems we know of are just information generated and existing in our experience in the moment we experience it. It is the removal of all "distance" and "intermediaries" and "systems in between" and it is necessary otherwise people are literally making God "conditioned" and "partnered". I fear this will be misunderstood as well. Lets see.
Alright, thanks. I know you are using many of the Quran's verses to support your Islamic-related position, so I don't really have to say anything on that.
I fear this will be misunderstood as well. Lets see.
It's okay, Allah makes people understand or misunderstand according to His will. So your job is to convey, as Allah willed for you, and then it depends on Allah's will for the rest of us whether we understand or we don't. I already said we are part of a big roleplay apparently.
Peace.
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Well that is Allah's will as well apparently. I don't know why I should bother to think in the first place if it is Allah who is being the marionettist in the first place. Hence FreedomStands needs to acknowledge more of the concept of free will for him to acknowledge that yes, we do have free will, besides Allah controlling us, for us to make decisions.
I do not quite blame FreedomStands for his position, for those who may be disturbed by his opinions on free will. He is using the Quran after all. I already said I feel the Quran has been quite badly mistranslated and misinterpreted, if it is indeed a scripture divinely inspired by Allah, so the many verses regarding the concept of free will are also distortions.
For example, see these verses
3213
If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance but the Word from Me will come true, ?I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together".1693
If Allah had willed he would have made you one nation. But he leads astray whom he will and guides whom he will. But you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.Yikes. If I didn't have some additional inspiration I would most likely have ran away from this religion already with fear and to protect my conscience. This God looks messed up from the way He controls people's free will and then rewards or punishes them for it; there is no denying it for a more rational minded person. But then since many people are partly indoctrinated when it comes to religion, they may see nothing really wrong with such verses. In that case they should definitely side with FreedomStands, on the points he made which did in fact go hand in hand with these verses.
Peace.
How about this What you know as your free will, exists, you are experiencing it, it is information you are experiencing. All information is generated by God. I am not saying you don't experience making choices and decisions or that you mustn't think or act.
Thank you anyway for your post, but most people are interpreting what I am saying similarly to how you appear to be. Most people think of God as a human being, but remember there is No God, that is the first part of the Shahada. What I am talking about is "Reality", "How things are", "Nature", and whatever else. What people often call "God" does not exist, and if it exists, it is not even what I am referring to at all most likely, because I am not talking about some figure that sits around like a man making decisions about things and going "hmm" "what should I do now" "I am tired" "I am bored" "I am hungry" "I want entertainment", these ideas all show who is thinking about "God" wrongly, and most people do. There is no such thing, I am an "Atheist" in that sense, and Atheism is the first part of the Shahada, to rid your mind of all these idolatrous and silly illogical ideas, and consider what actually "is", to consider Reality itself, Nature itself, how things "are" and what it is, and what it is, is information, and information appears to be moving, and that is all we ever can "know" and can "see", but we also are pointed towards what is "non-information", that which is "beyond" or "behind" the information, its driving source and power. which is not actually "made from it" because it is the Nothing which brings every moment into existence.
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It's okay, Allah makes people understand or misunderstand according to His will. So your job is to convey, as Allah willed for you, and then it depends on Allah's will for the rest of us whether we understand or we don't. I already said we are part of a big roleplay apparently.
Peace.
There wouldn't be anything if it were not generated. Thanks though. It isn't a "roleplay" exactly, only because the "mind" behind it all is not a "human mind". It is like an Octopus thinking "God must think like an Octopus" but God is not any of those things, God isn't a human, so the thinking is not like a human, even though the "experience of being Samira" is a specific set of information at any moment and is encompassed by God, God is potentially encompassing realities and things which humans can not even comprehend or imagine because they are humans right now.
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There wouldn't be anything if it were not generated. Thanks though. It isn't a "roleplay" exactly, only because the "mind" behind it all is not a "human mind". It is like an Octopus thinking "God must think like an Octopus" but God is not any of those things, God isn't a human, so the thinking is not like a human, even though the "experience of being Samira" is a specific set of information at any moment and is encompassed by God, God is potentially encompassing realities and things which humans can not even comprehend or imagine because they are humans right now.
I meant basically what you said. In a simple puppet roleplay there may be marionettes and marionettist present, but if the same concept is implemented in a God-like dimension, then obviously higher methods are used, such as channeling information to the human consciousness, and the human mind then accepting it as normal and "free will" and directly implementing it as it is without question. If the human questions, that could also be part of the channeled information by God, as according to what you say.
To simplify it all without the heady terms, I use the example of a puppet roleplay, that's all.
Peace.
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I meant basically what you said. In a simple puppet roleplay there may be marionettes and marionettist present, but if the same concept is implemented in a God-like dimension, then obviously higher methods are used, such as channeling information to the human consciousness, and the human mind then accepting it as normal and "free will" and directly implementing it as it is without question. If the human questions, that could also be part of the channeled information by God, as according to what you say.
To simplify it all without the heady terms, I use the example of a puppet roleplay, that's all.
Peace.
Why should it be a question though regarding what generates the information, is there something else which generates information? What I am calling information is absolutely everything, I mean your experience of yourself, what is heard, what is seen, what is known to you, is all unique to you (otherwise someone experiencing only what you experience exactly and only that and nothing extra would just be you and no one else, they would be "standing" in the same place as you and everything, there would be no difference. God is not you, because God is not limited to that set of information the way you are limited to whatever you know currently, but God encompasses that information and whatever else, so because God has additional information God is not you exactly the way anything with only your set of information and nothing more would be you only that moment.
I am only referring to "that which generates all information ultimately" as "God". There is no doubt that even the experience can be given to someone or the impression that they are generating information. They could even think of something and then point their finger and it would manifest just as they had imagined, but even so, they would be "conditioned" beings, because they are made of information and didn't make themselves, and everything in our personal experience is "conditioned" and "created" and "restricted" in various ways, so we do not worship those confined things, we worship whatever absolutely can not be "restricted" and whatever can not be "restricted" is what is not "bound" by information, and so is "before" it and "beyond" it and not made of any information, and information can not generate itself of its own power, just like a rock can not make a rock, so something has to generate the information in order for it to exist, whatever it may be, whatever experience it may be. Yet that "something" if you go to the ultimate level is "nothing" or "like nothing" it can not logically be information itself, but is "before" the information and "eternal" because there is no "time" over it or beyond it, but "time" is just a perception or concept it creates in some experiences. Though your marionette thing is fine idea, I just think it brings a person's mind to something too anthropomorphic. It is neither thinking like a human nor unable to think like a human, but human thoughts are some of the many forms of information or experience it has generated from nothing (itself if you prefer, though saying itself might make people think it is made of information when it isn't at all).
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Why should it be a question though regarding what generates the information, is there something else which generates information? What I am calling information is absolutely everything, I mean your experience of yourself, what is heard, what is seen, what is known to you, is all unique to you (otherwise someone experiencing only what you experience exactly and only that and nothing extra would just be you and no one else, they would be "standing" in the same place as you and everything, there would be no difference. God is not you, because God is not limited to that set of information the way you are limited to whatever you know currently, but God encompasses that information and whatever else, so because God has additional information God is not you exactly the way anything with only your set of information and nothing more would be you only that moment.
I am only referring to "that which generates all information ultimately" as "God". There is no doubt that even the experience can be given to someone or the impression that they are generating information. They could even think of something and then point their finger and it would manifest just as they had imagined, but even so, they would be "conditioned" beings, because they are made of information and didn't make themselves, and everything in our personal experience is "conditioned" and "created" and "restricted" in various ways, so we do not worship those confined things, we worship whatever absolutely can not be "restricted" and whatever can not be "restricted" is what is not "bound" by information, and so is "before" it and "beyond" it and not made of any information, and information can not generate itself of its own power, just like a rock can not make a rock, so something has to generate the information in order for it to exist, whatever it may be, whatever experience it may be. Yet that "something" if you go to the ultimate level is "nothing" or "like nothing" it can not logically be information itself, but is "before" the information and "eternal" because there is no "time" over it or beyond it, but "time" is just a perception or concept it creates in some experiences. Though your marionette thing is fine idea, I just think it brings a person's mind to something too anthropomorphic. It is neither thinking like a human nor unable to think like a human, but human thoughts are some of the many forms of information or experience it has generated from nothing (itself if you prefer, though saying itself might make people think it is made of information when it isn't at all).
Yeah, puppet roleplay basically, but in more advanced form using multiple dimensions since this is a much larger form of roleplay. If we took a look at all of it from a point above the universe and it is what you say it is, we would all come to the conclusion that it is indeed a massive form of roleplay, and God may be just out there to have fun as a marionettist in particular since His world without the universe/s is most likely a very boring one. Would have been still okay in a way, although meaningless obviously, if the traditional descriptions of Heaven and Hell did not exist. Which ultimately turns this "God" into a giant monster.
Peace.