The Cultural element behind words
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Salam Lena.
The first step is to recognize that "Salehin" and "Birr" are two separate terms. If someone is claiming they are the same thing, perhaps they understand more than the author of Qur'an who chose to use different terms?
The second step would be to check the meanings in dictionaies and Lexicons and then compare what the translators are saying.
The third and most important step would be to examine the Quranic usage of the term.
Qur'an already gives you a definition of "Al-Birr" at 2177, per my humble understanding the English word that matches this description as well as the dictionary definition of "Al-Birr" most is "Piety". If you prefer a different English word feel free to use it. Afterall the meaning that the word "piety" invoke in me may not be same as it may invoke in you.
"Amalu salehin" has not been defined as categorically in Qur'an. That implies, the conventional/dictionary meaning - which is - "acting righteously" OR "acting appropriately" is adequately representative meaning. I have found that the Quranic usage also supports this meaning.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Greetings again Arman
Are you saying that because two words are different they can't have the same meaning?
Synonyms are different terms/ words that can have the same meaning. For example expire is a different term from die but it can have the same meaning. Likewise for finish and terminate and many many others in the English language. I am not sure what you mean when you say we need to recognize they are two different terms, and therefore God would not use them to mean the same thing. Are there no different words in Arabic that can have the same meaning? Does Qurayshi Arabic have no synomyns? Or do you mean God used two different words to illustrate they had two seperate meanings. Does God use synonyms anywhere in Quran or are there no synonyms in Quran? -
Culture and language are interconnected. Anyone who has studied a second language understands that language is the vehicle of culture. It can be studied and learnt in isolation from the culture but the true depth of meaning cannot be fully understood unless one is also immersed in the culture and becomes culturally literate. So if we don't know the culture behind the Quranic words (i.e 7th century Quraysh culture) how can we understand the true meaning of Gods words in Quran? And how can we know if any of the interpretations or translations that we now have are correct? Must we rely on historical cultural sources for this knowledge?
True..
However.. God's revelation hasn't stopped in 7th century, it's actually still continuing up until today..
There's no guarantee that the Quran is 100% from God and error free..You must rely on God for any knowledge.. (and not on some item or book)
And He always answers to those who ask question, and help those who seek...
Just try.. and you shall be amazed..https//a0.muscache.com/pictures/2549932/large.jpg
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Peace Jafar,
However.. God's revelation hasn't stopped in 7th century, it's actually still continuing up until today..
There's no guarantee that the Quran is 100% from God and error free..You must rely on God for any knowledge.. (and not on some item or book)
And He always answers to those who ask question, and help those who seek...
Just try.. and you shall be amazed..Well said bravo
I continue to be a huge fan of yours!
I can personally attest to this being true. I always rely on the infinite Creator and it has always answered me when I asked a question about anything, and unexpectedly pointed me in the right direction and helped me to discover the truth, as long as I made an effort and was receptive.
The best way to discover the truth is to experience it yourself. The infinite Creator channels anyone who is open and receptive.
May the infinite Creator bless you for all your efforts.
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https//a0.muscache.com/pictures/2549932/large.jpg
I consider that advice pretty dangerous. Lots of silly people seem to "listen only to themselves" and are not operating that efficiently based on that strategy.
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Greetings again Arman
Are you saying that because two words are different they can't have the same meaning?
Synonyms are different terms/ words that can have the same meaning. For example expire is a different term from die but it can have the same meaning. Likewise for finish and terminate and many many others in the English language. I am not sure what you mean when you say we need to recognize they are two different terms, and therefore God would not use them to mean the same thing. Are there no different words in Arabic that can have the same meaning? Does Qurayshi Arabic have no synomyns? Or do you mean God used two different words to illustrate they had two seperate meanings. Does God use synonyms anywhere in Quran or are there no synonyms in Quran?Salam Lena.
First of all, even if two words are synnonyms they often have finer shades of difference in meaning and usage. Take your own example - Finish and terminate. We say, "Before I finished my tea, my boss informed me that I have been terminated from my job." Now, let's rephrase - "Before I terminated my tea, my boss informed me that I have been finished from my job." Does it work?
Specifically when it comes to Qur'an, I strongly believe each word choice is significant and meaningful. There cannot be two words that are absolutely interchangable. Take it as my personal "conviction". If you do not feel inclined to accept this conclusion fell free to feel as you may.
Coming back to the terms "Salih" and "Birr" - you have righty pointed out these are very critical terms to understand the key themes of the Qur'an. Do you think that A'limul Hakim would create confusion by inconsistently using two different words to mean the same thing on such critical verses?
Let?s take a quick look at the Lane?s Lexicon. Verb Salaha is defined as
It, and he, was, or became, good, incorrupt, right, just, righteous, virtuous, or honest; it was or became, in a good, incorrupt, sound, right, or proper, state, or in a state of order;
(Source http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=AB3579232CC24621F3F643179D01354C?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0028%3Aroot%3DSlH%3Aentry%3DSalaHa)Whereas, Verb Barra is defined as
He was pious (Msb) he was good, just, righteous, virtuous, or honest (T, Msb) and he was true, or veracious.
(Source http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=AB3579232CC24621F3F643179D01354C?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0016%3Aroot%3Dbr%3Aentry%3Dbar%7Ea)Same?
Now let's focus on Quranic usage. Note carefully, in verse 262 and 569 Qur'an specifically says "who have faith in Allah, faith in the last day and act righteously." From this it is implied that "acting righteously" (amalu salehin) does not encompass "faith in Allah, faith in the last day" but rather the resulting actions which are expected to come as an outcome of such faith. Had "faith in Allah, faith in the last day" been a part of "acting righteously" it would have been redundant to mention them separately wouldn't it? ON THE OTHER HAND, "Al-Birr" as defined at 2177 clearly includes "faith in Allah, faith in the last day". Doesn't it sufficiently imply that these two terms are different?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace Arman Aziz,
Now let's focus on Quranic usage. Note carefully, in verse 262 and 569 Qur'an specifically says "who have faith in Allah, faith in the last day and act righteously." From this it is implied that "acting righteously" (amalu salehin) does not encompass "faith in Allah, faith in the last day" but rather the resulting actions which are expected to come as an outcome of such faith. Had "faith in Allah, faith in the last day" been a part of "acting righteously" it would have been redundant to mention them separately wouldn't it? ON THE OTHER HAND, "Al-Birr" as defined at 2177 clearly includes "faith in Allah, faith in the last day". Doesn't it sufficiently imply that these two terms are different?
Well said bravo
As a side note, I fully agree with your view that the most important thing for our spiritual progress is performing righteous acts (doing good deeds, service to others etc.) and that anyone who makes peace and performs righteous acts would be a "muslim", no matter what culture, religion or group that person belongs to. I applaud your tolerance of other people's beliefs and views, and respect your personal beliefs and views.
May the infinite Creator bless you for your efforts.
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Thanks for all the comments. Truth Seeker does a Muslim also have to believe in God, specifically that there is only one such entity, and the hereafter, angels, prophets and the scriptures / Quran or do you mean that a Muslim is based on good deeds only?
Salam Lena.
I am having a discussion with ?My name is Ted? on exactly same topic here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg362669#msg362669
You need to follow through with the replies.
A more complete review of the topic from a Quranic perspective can be found in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607143.msg361414#msg361414
Hope this will give you some food for thought.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace Lena,
Thanks for all the comments. Truth Seeker does a Muslim also have to believe in God, specifically that there is only one such entity, and the hereafter, angels, prophets and the scriptures / Quran or do you mean that a Muslim is based on good deeds only?
In addition to the posts brother Arman Aziz has referenced, please take a look at my following short post which summarizes the answer to your question
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607188.msg362860#msg362860
May the infinite Creator bless you.
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Salaam Lena,
The author of Quran left the so-called "initials" as a little help with literal interpretation of the words instead of, for example, culture bias as you say. If one learns the role they play they can interpret Quran exactly as the author meant.
Have faith