Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Freedom,
The passage is trying to say that Moses already tried to exhort them but he failed and says Aaron is more eloquent in speech than him.
It is a misconception that the root means kill/fight. It rather means to try to persuade/convince/exhort.
Before Moses flees he tries to convince people and they do not believe him and agrees against him, even the Children of Israel and thus he returns with these signs and show them both to the Children of Israel to gain their support plus go to Pharaoh.
Salaam
Tries to convince people of what? The burning bush incident hadn't happened yet.
Its funny that the Qur'an would be given to people in this language where Allah would surely understand that each and every one of them would misunderstand the words being used since the way they used the words is what made their understanding and definition for those words. So what is said would have been understood as "kill" because that is how they commonly understood the word (because words work by usage generally, so if someone keeps saying "cup" when pointing to a "cup" then "cup" becomes the word for that object and is understood to refer to that object or concept, even if C+U+P means dancing upon the moon in some other system or language).
So in the case of the person who killed the boy, Moses was saying "you exhorted a boy!" and was making a big deal about that? Exhorting people was a crime punishable by death in the land of Pharoah, yet Pharoah didn't immediately kill Moses when he exhorted them?
I'm just curious, but at what age did these waves of understanding come upon you? Were you always of this understanding? Do you sometimes feel a little lonely knowing these secrets while all the rest are totally just using language in the usual fashion? I know I'd be particularly disturbed if every word I read was wrong and I had before me the task of trying to communicate how exactly its wrong.
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Salaam Freedom,
You think Moses were not enlightened already as prior to the first meeting with the Sustainer? He was strong in his faith just as his progeny. He knew the truth about the Sustainer before he met Allah. So why would he not have tried to convince people about the right ways and facts about faith just as I am at this moment trying to convey it to you.
Moses was seen as a threat because the community knew about the prophecy of Moses coming and Pharaoh took precautions against that which you probably already know, and those failed. Moses was very humble and took no space but grew anyway to a rank of respect, but not everyone liked this but the authorities saw Moses as a threat and plotted against him although Moses was warned about this and could flee.
The "waves of understanding" (I know you mean this in a rhetorical sarcastic way) came when I begun to become aware of my true self and rejected millennia of lies. I do not just outright buy an interpretation without giving it a deep analysis first. And the letter method is a result of this careful analytical way. Why do you think yourself the "mysterious" letters are there which begin several chapters and even are followed by a conjunction sometimes?
Salaam
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Why do you think yourself the "mysterious" letters are there which begin several chapters and even are followed by a conjunction sometimes?
Salaam
Can you clarify this last question for me a bit more?
Also, was Pharoah "exhorting" the babies (you mentioned the precautions Pharoah took). Was it Pharoah going around and "exhorting" them or did Pharoah have them killed? See, if the meaning of that word which was understood by the audience to mean "kill" due to common usage is made to mean "exhort" there are many times where it is used that would create some curious instances where "killing" turns into exhorting (and no one understood it like that apparently because the meanings of words and their definitions are generally based on common usage, and God certainly would have chosen a word that is not used to mean "kill" commonly unless the intention was that no one except maybe you in the future would come to understand this).
Did Moses run from being exhorted? Did Pharoah chase after Musa to exhort him? Did Pharoah threaten to exhort the Magicians?
Lets see how many times the word is used
2833
He said, "My Lord! Indeed, I killed of them a man, and I fear that they will kill me."I fear they will exhort me" ?
QTL Qatal
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl
If you read all those examples, lots of funny incidences of "exhorting" will turn up.
Would it have been a big deal if Moses had killed a man? Would that have somehow shattered everything?
Oh also, you might enjoy this
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
They also had trouble with accepting the whole killing going on in the scriptures, so they figured that the God who created matter is different from the good God, and they focused on the writings attributed to Paul which was all the spiritual stuff and anti-flesh anti-matter stuff.
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What is that description of God was present in the Quran? Would you still fight such a notion? Because to you God can do whatever he wills.
Peace.
Yep, I've said that repeatedly in my posts. That if the Qur'an said something contrary to what I am saying regarding God, I would reject those things if I could find no way around them. Luckily, no religious scripture actually says anything that really differs from what I am saying or at least it is easy to make them appear to say what I want them to, but I would not feel any obligation to the Qur'an even if it came down from the sky with wings and did a little dance with its strange long Qur'an legs. If it said "God is something bound" I would reject it, because something bound is then overpowered and weak before it, so is not what I would ever want to consider "God", and is unworthy of being feared really, because something is greater than it, and the Greatest is what should be feared, and the Greatest can not have something over it or binding it or else whatever is binding it would be greater than it, so these are just clear definitions and understandings of words. Thank you for asking though! You can ask me anything else!
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Salaam,
Musa did not kill anyone. He cannot do so as per my understanding.
If he kills, then he is surely a murderer even though he is a good man.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanCheck out my above replies too if you could. I'd like to see how you might deal with that.
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Salaam,
Yep, I've said that repeatedly in my posts. That if the Qur'an said something contrary to what I am saying regarding God, I would reject those things if I could find no way around them. Luckily, no religious scripture actually says anything that really differs from what I am saying or at least it is easy to make them appear to say what I want them to, but I would not feel any obligation to the Qur'an even if it came down from the sky with wings and did a little dance with its strange long Qur'an legs. If it said "God is something bound" I would reject it, because something bound is then overpowered and weak before it, so is not what I would ever want to consider "God", and is unworthy of being feared really, because something is greater than it, and the Greatest is what should be feared, and the Greatest can not have something over it or binding it or else whatever is binding it would be greater than it, so these are just clear definitions and understandings of words. Thank you for asking though! You can ask me anything else!
Thank you for your intellectual honesty bravo handshake
If something went against my inner compass/conscience (3030), mind/reasoning (1611, 1644), and real world evidence (4153), I would have no hesitation in rejecting it as a falsehood, even if it claims to be divinely inspired.
May the infinite Creator bless you.
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Salaam,
Thank you for your intellectual honesty bravo handshake
If something went against my inner compass/conscience (3030), mind/reasoning (1611, 1644), and real world evidence (4153), I would have no hesitation in rejecting it as a falsehood, even if it claims to be divinely inspired.
May the infinite Creator bless you.
Thank you! Sorry about any scuffle we may have had or may have in the future! Same goes to you Man of Faith!
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Freedom,
The "funny stuff" emerges because the grammar is often wrong or they have played interpretation acrobatics.
Moses had arguments with the people in Egypt and had to flee because he was perceived as a threat. There was no murdering going on.
Just like truthseeker I find that you come up with strawman tactics by saying something about Marcionism. By the way the Gospel of Marcion is the best Gospel even if it was banned and deemed heretical by the clergy.
Salaam
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Salaam,
And it is logically inconsistent that Pharaoh would have ordered all male children to be slain because Pharaoh made his sustenance upon the slave labor of the Children of Israel. It is true that Pharaoh killed newborns during a period due to the revelation of a prophecy of the coming of Moses, but this is only very brief.
The killing of male children is not the essence of the bondage in Egypt and hence you have further indications on that reasoning.
I have studied the fallacy of as kill/fight for some time and it does not add up.There is another inconsistent passage and in that it says "do not commit usury and do not kill yourself". Context wise this is very poor and either the author of the text is a very poor writer or something is wrong in interpretation. The reason is simple, it means that those who do it should exhort themselves not to do so following the same context.
And the word qatal is not used in conjunction with the magicians.
And the "command" to "kill children" is issued after that event with the signs and not while Moses is a baby, which is clear inconsistency. There is no more command to kill children because Pharaoh depended on the labor of the Children of Israel.
Salaam
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What is your understanding of the following
2833
He said, "My Lord! Indeed, I killed of them a man, and I fear that they will kill me.2815
And he entered the city at a time (of) inattention of its people and found therein two men fighting each other; this of his party and this of his enemy. And called him for help the one who (was) from his party against the one who (was) from his enemy, so Musa struck him with his fist and killed him. He said, "This (is) of (the) deed (of) Shaitaan. Indeed, he (is) an enemy - one who misleads clearly."Also a witness to a murder of a boy
1874
So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing. (But Musa didn't hand him over to the authorities if there were any)Also asked people to kill themselves
254
And when said Musa to his people, "O my people! Indeed, you have wronged yourselves by your taking the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator, and kill yourselves. That (is) better for you with your Creator." Then He turned towards you. Indeed He! He (is) the-returning, the Most Merciful.Salaam,
As per my understanding the word qatl does not mean killing or fighting.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Freedom,
The passage is trying to say that Moses already tried to exhort them but he failed and says Aaron is more eloquent in speech than him.
It is a misconception that the root means kill/fight. It rather means to try to persuade/convince/exhort.
Before Moses flees he tries to convince people and they do not believe him and agrees against him, even the Children of Israel and thus he returns with these signs and show them both to the Children of Israel to gain their support plus go to Pharaoh.
Salaam
How do you get that understanding from something which is so clear? Seems like you've already made up your mind and are twisting the words of the Quran to make them fit.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Of course I would, and Allah knows I do so with my utmost sincerety. I pray the way my community prays because I believe the messenger whom we specifically follow (i.e. Prophet Muhammad) taught us to pray in communitywide consistent format so that we can empathize with each other. But what I would not do is to propagate a specific form / format and frquency of "prayer" to be an indispensable requirement for one to be a muslim or for one to receive eternal salvation. Because that is simply not the teaching of Qur'an. Many among the ones who repented (alladina hadu), took their rituals as an end in itself as opposed to a means towards an end. Their state is comparable to that of a donkeys who bear the load without understanding what they bear. Many among the "Muslims" are walking the exact same path. Then will you not understand?
What is indispensable is to "establish" respect (akimus salat) for the Master of the universe through our everyday action. The ritual salat is only a ceremonial expression of that respect that helps keep us consistently reminded.
God in the Quran clearly says you should be nice to your parents, you should be nice to your neighbours (near and far), to the children of the path and so on. Do you or any of our clergy consider those to be indispensable requirement for one to be a muslim? Be aware, God in the the Qur'an also condemns the "Musalli" who repulses the orphan and do not feel the urge to feed the poor (Ref Surah 107). Which one is the indispensable requirement then?
Just to make it clear I am not saying that if you don't pray to God you will not make it into heaven. My understanding is that even those who pray 5 times a day or even more may not get into heaven since they may have committed adultery and not repented, they may have murdered someone, they may have been really bad. It could be that someone who has not prayed regular may have been doing really good things and them good deeds may simply get them in heaven.
However I think it makes it difficult for one to call themselves a muslim or follower of the Quran. You could call yourself a believer in God but to call yourself a muslim I think is a bit incorrect.
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The killing of male children is not the essence of the bondage in Egypt and hence you have further indications on that reasoning.
I have studied the fallacy of as kill/fight for some time and it does not add up.As per my understanding the word qatl does not mean killing or fighting.
Peace Man of Faith, mmkhan, what is your Arabic word meaning "kill"?
May God bless you both
peace
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Peace Ted,
How do you get that understanding from something which is so clear? Seems like you've already made up your mind and are twisting the words of the Quran to make them fit.
I am surprised you don't get it.
I have started using a similar methodology to understand English language, which is not my native language, with great success. I have discovered the secret meanings of the English letters and can finally figure out what English words really mean.
For example "murder". I know the secret meanings of the individual letters m, u, r, d, e, r, and putting those secret meanings together, I found that "to murder" actually means "to bring happiness". So when I read that someone committed murder, I understand it to mean the person brought happiness.
I am never going to tell you the source of those secret meanings; you will just have to trust me.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this?
May the infinite Creator bless you.
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Freedom,
The "funny stuff" emerges because the grammar is often wrong or they have played interpretation acrobatics.
Moses had arguments with the people in Egypt and had to flee because he was perceived as a threat. There was no murdering going on.
Just like truthseeker I find that you come up with strawman tactics by saying something about Marcionism. By the way the Gospel of Marcion is the best Gospel even if it was banned and deemed heretical by the clergy.
Salaam
I didn't mention Marcion as a straw man, I just had the page opened and thought you may like it too since you would probably be into that kind of stuff, I'm a big fan of Paul of Tarsus myself and I like Marcion and Marcion's ideas somewhat. I know your beliefs aren't exactly like Marcion and I was not mentioning Marcion as anything but something you may also be interested in, it had nothing to do with trying to make you look bad or something.
I asked you certain questions, but I find it disturbing that you kind of just ignored them and say there has been some playing around with grammar somehow by removing the normal meaning of the word QTL, so if we look back into the history books, any time killing is mentioned, this word apparently QTL means exhorting, so there was no killing apparently, and the common way in which people used this word to mean kill is somehow irrelevant?
Cain Exhorted Abel and then buried him alive.
Pharoah Exhorted the babies.
There was lots of mutual Exhorting going on, and if someone had you Exhorted, they would have to pay you money.
Are you serious? Or do you sit there laughing at the mischief? Come on there must be a giant smirk on your face.
Its nice that you want a Qur'an without the word "kill" in it, but that is how the word was understood by normal people, and how it had been understood by those before it, and after it. What benefit would they have had in turning the word to kill and them go through and play all kinds of tricks when it was well known to them all that the word and its root meant to kill?
So many things don't make any sense as I've pointed out with the word "kill" removed and changed to "exhort" for qtl words.
A whole history of the world changed into lots of exhorting people to death.
I guess not too dissimilar from what happens at Free-Minds.org.
Now this is going to sound rude, and these days you've been half nice to me which I appreciate, but are you all there? I mean I don't want to bother you too much if you've been diagnosed with something. You write in a manner that seems pretty sane, but the stuff you go at is pretty out there and it seems you never wish to take the time to face the issues you bring up in the first place.
I never expected anyone, let alone a bunch of people, start complaining about the well known concept of Moses having killed someone. This led to the issue of changing the meaning of the word "kill" in there to mean "exhort", which throws so many stories out of wack to the point of senselessness. Now you may not be doing it on purpose, but wouldn't you think that a devil would love to see the Qur'an rendered senseless to people and absurd?
I fear they will exhort me? Exorting Abel? Exhort them in combat? What the HECK? You just shrug all that off as "grammar acrobatics" like how you shrugged off everything else from before as "mistranslated" and then even shrugged off everything else as you having found the secret key to unlocking the meanings of words that no one historically had used in that manner and words meanings are based on their usage, that is how they are understood, you can ask any linguist or even ordinary school teachers and they will hopefully say and understand that the meaning of a word is based on the usage of the word and what concept the word is attached to. Historically it was well known that the QTL word was connected to killing. The JNN word was connected to hidden things, not faithless things (as you can see from its usage).
Why do you need the Qur'an to be a certain way? Why not drop the Qur'an if it doesn't fit the mold and stick to the Paul stuff which might be more workable (but not really, since Paul actually often says what I say too in some regards which you probably wouldn't like, you can look up the word predestined at www.biblehub.com and it will pop up a few times in related to Paul's writings since he seems to be saying that people are selected by God and can not achieve it otherwise).
So in that case, why not just write a new religious scripture that you don't have to work so hard to make it say what you want it to say against all odds? Just call it something like The Book of Faith (for Men of Faith) and then write in it exactly what you want where you don't need to worry about any killing being in it and trying to change the common uses of words from other languages or even touching upon etymological stuff.
Can you explain why they would change the commonly used word for killing to mean killing when that is the word they commonly used for killing?
Can you explain all those verses that have killing in them and how "exhorting" would make any sense? Did Cain exhort Abel to death or then bury him alive?
Come on man, are you kidding with me? Is this a joke? If it is a joke it is definitely my style of humor, its very funny.
Lets make other words mean other things besides how they were normally and commonly understood and used and make the whole Qur'an a really ridiculous and funny comedy book! The Qur'an is already very funny, but this is just making it a wonderful book of ad libs.
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Salamun Alaikum.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanWhat do you think Arman?
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Peace Man of Faith, mmkhan, what is your Arabic word meaning "kill"?
May God bless you both
peace
Maybe no Arab had ever killed anyone and so the word was unheard of! They did exhort each other lots though, a very annoying society, much like free-minds perhaps!
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Salaam,
And it is logically inconsistent that Pharaoh would have ordered all male children to be slain because Pharaoh made his sustenance upon the slave labor of the Children of Israel. It is true that Pharaoh killed newborns during a period due to the revelation of a prophecy of the coming of Moses, but this is only very brief.
The killing of male children is not the essence of the bondage in Egypt and hence you have further indications on that reasoning.
I have studied the fallacy of as kill/fight for some time and it does not add up.There is another inconsistent passage and in that it says "do not commit usury and do not kill yourself". Context wise this is very poor and either the author of the text is a very poor writer or something is wrong in interpretation. The reason is simple, it means that those who do it should exhort themselves not to do so following the same context.
And the word qatal is not used in conjunction with the magicians.
And the "command" to "kill children" is issued after that event with the signs and not while Moses is a baby, which is clear inconsistency. There is no more command to kill children because Pharaoh depended on the labor of the Children of Israel.
Salaam
The Qur'an specifies his attack was on the male boys of a certain faction, and then his wife said "do not exhort him" to Pharoah about the Baby Moses?
No one historically used this word in the way you are saying, or was everyone cutting people's throats doing it accidentally and really meant to exhort them and would say "he exhorted them!" and there are a bunch of dead bodies laying around?
Look at all the examples I provided in the links. Cain exhorted Abel? That was one of them listed, there are so many more.
Do you really need the Qur'an to be like this?
Why is this place rampant with dreadful amounts of ignorance?
Lets go through and explain every instance of "qtl" which is also used to this day in the same way as it was used in the past (or did they start wringing their hands together and decide that now we shall change the word to kill forever ever so that everyone afterwards will use the word to mean kill bwuahaha).
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Peace Ted,
I am surprised you don't get it.
I have started using a similar methodology to understand English language, which is not my native language, with great success. I have discovered the secret meanings of the English letters and can finally figure out what English words really mean.
For example "murder". I know the secret meanings of the individual letters m, u, r, d, e, r, and putting those secret meanings together, I found that "to murder" actually means "to bring happiness". So when I read that someone committed murder, I understand it to mean the person brought happiness.
I am never going to tell you the source of those secret meanings; you will just have to trust me.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this?
May the infinite Creator bless you.
Are you kidding or being awesomely sarcastic and funny?
Also, just in case you're being serious, this is not how language works, language works by usage, a word doesn't have a "secret meaning" by itself unless someone gives it a secret meaning, but words are generally defined by their usage, meaning how they are used repeatedly, and they can change in their meaning over time based on how they are used repeatedly, but you don't figure out words by adding secret meanings of letters together, that is not how language is generally used, words pick up their meaning by how they are used and what they are used to refer to.
Is your secret source from channeling? Might it not be an ill intended entity that would work to convince you that murder means to make people happy? That is if you're not joking and poking fun at this whole thing.