Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Salamun Alaikum.
Of course I would, and Allah knows I do so with my utmost sincerety. I pray the way my community prays because I believe the messenger whom we specifically follow (i.e. Prophet Muhammad) taught us to pray in communitywide consistent format so that we can empathize with each other. But what I would not do is to propagate a specific form / format and frquency of "prayer" to be an indispensable requirement for one to be a muslim or for one to receive eternal salvation. Because that is simply not the teaching of Qur'an. Many among the ones who repented (alladina hadu), took their rituals as an end in itself as opposed to a means towards an end. Their state is comparable to that of a donkeys who bear the load without understanding what they bear. Many among the "Muslims" are walking the exact same path. Then will you not understand?
What is indispensable is to "establish" respect (akimus salat) for the Master of the universe through our everyday action. The ritual salat is only a ceremonial expression of that respect that helps keep us consistently reminded.
God in the Quran clearly says you should be nice to your parents, you should be nice to your neighbours (near and far), to the children of the path and so on. Do you or any of our clergy consider those to be indispensable requirement for one to be a muslim? Be aware, God in the the Qur'an also condemns the "Musalli" who repulses the orphan and do not feel the urge to feed the poor (Ref Surah 107). Which one is the indispensable requirement then?
Just to make it clear I am not saying that if you don't pray to God you will not make it into heaven. My understanding is that even those who pray 5 times a day or even more may not get into heaven since they may have committed adultery and not repented, they may have murdered someone, they may have been really bad. It could be that someone who has not prayed regular may have been doing really good things and them good deeds may simply get them in heaven.
However I think it makes it difficult for one to call themselves a muslim or follower of the Quran. You could call yourself a believer in God but to call yourself a muslim I think is a bit incorrect.
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The killing of male children is not the essence of the bondage in Egypt and hence you have further indications on that reasoning.
I have studied the fallacy of as kill/fight for some time and it does not add up.As per my understanding the word qatl does not mean killing or fighting.
Peace Man of Faith, mmkhan, what is your Arabic word meaning "kill"?
May God bless you both
peace
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Peace Ted,
How do you get that understanding from something which is so clear? Seems like you've already made up your mind and are twisting the words of the Quran to make them fit.
I am surprised you don't get it.
I have started using a similar methodology to understand English language, which is not my native language, with great success. I have discovered the secret meanings of the English letters and can finally figure out what English words really mean.
For example "murder". I know the secret meanings of the individual letters m, u, r, d, e, r, and putting those secret meanings together, I found that "to murder" actually means "to bring happiness". So when I read that someone committed murder, I understand it to mean the person brought happiness.
I am never going to tell you the source of those secret meanings; you will just have to trust me.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this?
May the infinite Creator bless you.
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Freedom,
The "funny stuff" emerges because the grammar is often wrong or they have played interpretation acrobatics.
Moses had arguments with the people in Egypt and had to flee because he was perceived as a threat. There was no murdering going on.
Just like truthseeker I find that you come up with strawman tactics by saying something about Marcionism. By the way the Gospel of Marcion is the best Gospel even if it was banned and deemed heretical by the clergy.
Salaam
I didn't mention Marcion as a straw man, I just had the page opened and thought you may like it too since you would probably be into that kind of stuff, I'm a big fan of Paul of Tarsus myself and I like Marcion and Marcion's ideas somewhat. I know your beliefs aren't exactly like Marcion and I was not mentioning Marcion as anything but something you may also be interested in, it had nothing to do with trying to make you look bad or something.
I asked you certain questions, but I find it disturbing that you kind of just ignored them and say there has been some playing around with grammar somehow by removing the normal meaning of the word QTL, so if we look back into the history books, any time killing is mentioned, this word apparently QTL means exhorting, so there was no killing apparently, and the common way in which people used this word to mean kill is somehow irrelevant?
Cain Exhorted Abel and then buried him alive.
Pharoah Exhorted the babies.
There was lots of mutual Exhorting going on, and if someone had you Exhorted, they would have to pay you money.
Are you serious? Or do you sit there laughing at the mischief? Come on there must be a giant smirk on your face.
Its nice that you want a Qur'an without the word "kill" in it, but that is how the word was understood by normal people, and how it had been understood by those before it, and after it. What benefit would they have had in turning the word to kill and them go through and play all kinds of tricks when it was well known to them all that the word and its root meant to kill?
So many things don't make any sense as I've pointed out with the word "kill" removed and changed to "exhort" for qtl words.
A whole history of the world changed into lots of exhorting people to death.
I guess not too dissimilar from what happens at Free-Minds.org.
Now this is going to sound rude, and these days you've been half nice to me which I appreciate, but are you all there? I mean I don't want to bother you too much if you've been diagnosed with something. You write in a manner that seems pretty sane, but the stuff you go at is pretty out there and it seems you never wish to take the time to face the issues you bring up in the first place.
I never expected anyone, let alone a bunch of people, start complaining about the well known concept of Moses having killed someone. This led to the issue of changing the meaning of the word "kill" in there to mean "exhort", which throws so many stories out of wack to the point of senselessness. Now you may not be doing it on purpose, but wouldn't you think that a devil would love to see the Qur'an rendered senseless to people and absurd?
I fear they will exhort me? Exorting Abel? Exhort them in combat? What the HECK? You just shrug all that off as "grammar acrobatics" like how you shrugged off everything else from before as "mistranslated" and then even shrugged off everything else as you having found the secret key to unlocking the meanings of words that no one historically had used in that manner and words meanings are based on their usage, that is how they are understood, you can ask any linguist or even ordinary school teachers and they will hopefully say and understand that the meaning of a word is based on the usage of the word and what concept the word is attached to. Historically it was well known that the QTL word was connected to killing. The JNN word was connected to hidden things, not faithless things (as you can see from its usage).
Why do you need the Qur'an to be a certain way? Why not drop the Qur'an if it doesn't fit the mold and stick to the Paul stuff which might be more workable (but not really, since Paul actually often says what I say too in some regards which you probably wouldn't like, you can look up the word predestined at www.biblehub.com and it will pop up a few times in related to Paul's writings since he seems to be saying that people are selected by God and can not achieve it otherwise).
So in that case, why not just write a new religious scripture that you don't have to work so hard to make it say what you want it to say against all odds? Just call it something like The Book of Faith (for Men of Faith) and then write in it exactly what you want where you don't need to worry about any killing being in it and trying to change the common uses of words from other languages or even touching upon etymological stuff.
Can you explain why they would change the commonly used word for killing to mean killing when that is the word they commonly used for killing?
Can you explain all those verses that have killing in them and how "exhorting" would make any sense? Did Cain exhort Abel to death or then bury him alive?
Come on man, are you kidding with me? Is this a joke? If it is a joke it is definitely my style of humor, its very funny.
Lets make other words mean other things besides how they were normally and commonly understood and used and make the whole Qur'an a really ridiculous and funny comedy book! The Qur'an is already very funny, but this is just making it a wonderful book of ad libs.
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Salamun Alaikum.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanWhat do you think Arman?
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Peace Man of Faith, mmkhan, what is your Arabic word meaning "kill"?
May God bless you both
peace
Maybe no Arab had ever killed anyone and so the word was unheard of! They did exhort each other lots though, a very annoying society, much like free-minds perhaps!
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Salaam,
And it is logically inconsistent that Pharaoh would have ordered all male children to be slain because Pharaoh made his sustenance upon the slave labor of the Children of Israel. It is true that Pharaoh killed newborns during a period due to the revelation of a prophecy of the coming of Moses, but this is only very brief.
The killing of male children is not the essence of the bondage in Egypt and hence you have further indications on that reasoning.
I have studied the fallacy of as kill/fight for some time and it does not add up.There is another inconsistent passage and in that it says "do not commit usury and do not kill yourself". Context wise this is very poor and either the author of the text is a very poor writer or something is wrong in interpretation. The reason is simple, it means that those who do it should exhort themselves not to do so following the same context.
And the word qatal is not used in conjunction with the magicians.
And the "command" to "kill children" is issued after that event with the signs and not while Moses is a baby, which is clear inconsistency. There is no more command to kill children because Pharaoh depended on the labor of the Children of Israel.
Salaam
The Qur'an specifies his attack was on the male boys of a certain faction, and then his wife said "do not exhort him" to Pharoah about the Baby Moses?
No one historically used this word in the way you are saying, or was everyone cutting people's throats doing it accidentally and really meant to exhort them and would say "he exhorted them!" and there are a bunch of dead bodies laying around?
Look at all the examples I provided in the links. Cain exhorted Abel? That was one of them listed, there are so many more.
Do you really need the Qur'an to be like this?
Why is this place rampant with dreadful amounts of ignorance?
Lets go through and explain every instance of "qtl" which is also used to this day in the same way as it was used in the past (or did they start wringing their hands together and decide that now we shall change the word to kill forever ever so that everyone afterwards will use the word to mean kill bwuahaha).
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Peace Ted,
I am surprised you don't get it.
I have started using a similar methodology to understand English language, which is not my native language, with great success. I have discovered the secret meanings of the English letters and can finally figure out what English words really mean.
For example "murder". I know the secret meanings of the individual letters m, u, r, d, e, r, and putting those secret meanings together, I found that "to murder" actually means "to bring happiness". So when I read that someone committed murder, I understand it to mean the person brought happiness.
I am never going to tell you the source of those secret meanings; you will just have to trust me.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this?
May the infinite Creator bless you.
Are you kidding or being awesomely sarcastic and funny?
Also, just in case you're being serious, this is not how language works, language works by usage, a word doesn't have a "secret meaning" by itself unless someone gives it a secret meaning, but words are generally defined by their usage, meaning how they are used repeatedly, and they can change in their meaning over time based on how they are used repeatedly, but you don't figure out words by adding secret meanings of letters together, that is not how language is generally used, words pick up their meaning by how they are used and what they are used to refer to.
Is your secret source from channeling? Might it not be an ill intended entity that would work to convince you that murder means to make people happy? That is if you're not joking and poking fun at this whole thing.
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The Qur'an specifies his attack was on the male boys of a certain faction, and then his wife said "do not exhort him" to Pharoah about the Baby Moses?
No one historically used this word in the way you are saying, or was everyone cutting people's throats doing it accidentally and really meant to exhort them and would say "he exhorted them!" and there are a bunch of dead bodies laying around?
Look at all the examples I provided in the links. Cain exhorted Abel? That was one of them listed, there are so many more.
Do you really need the Qur'an to be like this?
Why is this place rampant with dreadful amounts of ignorance?
Lets go through and explain every instance of "qtl" which is also used to this day in the same way as it was used in the past (or did they start wringing their hands together and decide that now we shall change the word to kill forever ever so that everyone afterwards will use the word to mean kill bwuahaha).
Each one has their own ideas and they have their right to have like you?
QTl root does mean fight, kill, destroy etc.. also there can be multiple explanations to those verses using those meanings.
I believe that primarily has the meaning "fight" and so fighting to eliminate.
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Peace FreedomStands,
Are you kidding or being awesomely sarcastic and funny?
That is if you're not joking and poking fun at this whole thing.
I did my secret letter meaning analysis and I came up with all the underlined words (kidding, sarcastic, funny, joking, poking fun), to mean "being serious". How dare you challenge my secret methodology?
Lighten up man! I thought you had a sense of humor and I wouldn't have to use the tongue smilie! P
It cracked me up to see in your rant thread that you thought I was being serious rotflMay the infinite Creator bless you.
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Each one has their own ideas and they have their right to have like you?
QTl root does mean fight, kill, destroy etc.. also there can be multiple explanations to those verses using those meanings.
I believe that primarily has the meaning "fight" and so fighting to eliminate.
Yes, everyone has their right to be utterly silly, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to try to make them see sense by giving a variety of examples.
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Peace FreedomStands,
I did my secret letter meaning analysis and I came up with all the underlined words (kidding, sarcastic, funny, joking, poking fun), to mean "being serious". How dare you challenge my secret methodology?
Lighten up man! I thought you had a sense of humor and I wouldn't have to use the tongue smilie!
It cracked me up to see in your rant thread that you thought I was being serious rotflMay the infinite Creator bless you.
I'm glad that cracked you up, it was definitely intended to be funny (and made me laugh too, the whole rant, and whenever I do my freak out performances it is really hilarious also in real life), and I'm so relieved you didn't mean that Murder means to Make Happy haha, that is good to know, phew! Seriously though, mmkhan and Man of Faith aren't even kidding! So many funny things end up happening to the Qur'an with the word changes.
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Yes, everyone has their right to be utterly silly, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to try to make them see sense by giving a variety of examples.
Freedom,
They are mocking the Quran. Let them be. God will deal with them. They can make excuses up that they were joking but I doubt God will accept it. No muslim can ever do that. The Quran should never be discussed in that manner by muslims. So avoid those who do.
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My name is Ted,
If you call exposing falsehood for twisting meanings that can be your opinion. You rather have a text which sounds ridiculous due to misinterpretation you can have it that way. I will not stop you.
There is much nonsense extracted from the mainstream translations such as the nonexistent ritual salateh.
Salaam
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My name is Ted,
If you call exposing falsehood for twisting meanings that can be your opinion. You rather have a text which sounds ridiculous due to misinterpretation you can have it that way. I will not stop you.
There is much nonsense extracted from the mainstream translations such as the nonexistent ritual salateh.
Salaam
There is a way to expose misunderstandings of scripture. Using ridicule is not one of them. This is about the words or supposed words of God. The God who has destroyed many nations who ridiculed the messengers of the past. A topic like this should never be treated lightly out of respect for God and for the fear of judgement day.
Salat is clearly prescribed in the Quran. If you don't agree that's your choice. If want to find out from others why then ask them nicely and question them deeply.
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Salateh is not particularly clear unless you are dishonest.
If interpretations are wrong you may think you derive the right one, but that does not need to be so. And I hardly treat the scripture lightly and that is why I am devoted to the work I am committed to. I do not want to stare at a lot of lies.
Salaam
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Salateh is not particularly clear unless you are dishonest.
If interpretations are wrong you may think you derive the right one, but that does not need to be so. And I hardly treat the scripture lightly and that is why I am devoted to the work I am committed to. I do not want to stare at a lot of lies.
Salaam
Even though I don't pray 5 times a day myself I do think it's clear that it is required at least 3 times a day explicitly and 5 implicitly. However I believe it's Gods grace that he doesn't state a punishment for not praying 5 times a day strictly. Maybe this is a test to differentiate between those who get the top level of paradise those who are nearest to God.
I accept that my understanding of the Quran may be wrong. I am always open to correction and have corrected myself through the reading of others opinions and thoughts. However I feel you reach a point where there is less and less of a doubt about the understanding of the Quran you have. For me this is because it all fits, it all makes sense. Whereas before an explanation may have simply fulfilled your own desire and thoughts of what God was like in order for you to justify it others and yourself.
Reading your posts I feel you haven't thought through things properly. My suggestion is that you clear out your biases and re-read the Quran.
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Salateh is not particularly clear unless you are dishonest.
If interpretations are wrong you may think you derive the right one, but that does not need to be so. And I hardly treat the scripture lightly and that is why I am devoted to the work I am committed to. I do not want to stare at a lot of lies.
Salaam
Why do you think they are lies and don't think that the interpretation of the New Testament stuff and all the spiritual stuff you believe are lies?
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Because the interpretation is clearly unrighteous. In its present shape, despite errors in portrayal over what individual words mean (such as Father, son etc), New Testament, at least the four canonical Gospels, portray the faith far more accurately than available interpretations of Quran.
Knowledge that used to be with people seems lost somehow concerning the dynamics of the phenomenon of God which was with Moses already 4000 years ago. If one found the stone tablets with the "Commandments" and then interpreted it just as it was intended when it was inscribed then they would see on the very first line and on the second about not making an image of the phenomenon of Allah (or Elohim as it says in that text).
And you could then immediately see the error in the ritual salateh too and also the even grosser error in praying towards a building in the desert of Arabia.
Salaam