Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Salam Arman & Ted,
I think You can use a better term than the meaningless word "pagan",
better word would be polytheists but even then if you and me claim to worship One God with different names like God, Allah, Siva or Bramman etc and fail to understand that both are indeed worshiping the same God, then we can also be called as a polytheist?
also one need to define whats worshiping? Just praising some Goodness can be called as worshiping? Say our mother or the land that gives us benefits? or saluting the teacher who teaches us?
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The good thing about my recent advancement concerning the Arabic word 'islam' is that it allows translations of the words we formerly had problems with.
When you greet someone with 'salaam' you simply wish them to be safe and sound. Not difficult at all once you realize the meaning of the root .
When used in conjunction with Rabb for example; aslama l'Rabb it means put your trust in the Sustainer to be safe and sound in God. It is a reliance. The phrase could literally be translated Be faithful to Rabb.
But as the word implied in above paragraph, i.e. safe and sound it implies that you have to show it through your works. Be safe and sound to the Rabb. This kind of behavior about doing the right things is what is faith and no wonder why that particular word was used.
If you have affinity by iman then you are truly Muslim.
Salaam
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Salaam amin,
I rather consider Pagan to be a person who is materialistic and thus also see God(s) as concrete images. This definition is also supported by dictionaries. Even someone who treats Allah like a too concrete entity and characteristically needs to please their god(s) through meaningless rituals and rites are Pagan rather than a spiritual affinity.
Polytheism is a stand-alone definition while Paganism can be monotheism but with a materialistic approach. Even being a sectarian and with very materialistic faith elements are Pagan.
Salaam
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Salam Arman & Ted,
I think You can use a better term than the meaningless word "pagan",
better word would be polytheists but even then if you and me claim to worship One God with different names like God, Allah, Siva or Bramman etc and fail to understand that both are indeed worshiping the same God, then we can also be called as a polytheist?
also one need to define whats worshiping? Just praising some Goodness can be called as worshiping? Say our mother or the land that gives us benefits? or saluting the teacher who teaches us?
Salam amin.
As usual very good points. By pagan I was refering to people who worship multiple deities.
You rightly pointed out the term "worship" can mean different things. A simple expression of respect can be called worship. Such worship of one's parents, one's country, one's favorite sport team, one's messengers or even that of lifeless idols may be tolerable and should not be considered shirk or pagan.
But if worship signifies one's unconditional submission to another OR being slave to (Arabic ibadat) another, then such worship is to be for God Alone. We can only be slave to Allah. And we be slave to Allah by upholding our sense of right and wrong given by Him. There is absolutely nothing in the universe - no parent, no angel, no messenger, no book - which can be or should be an excuse for not living upto our God-gifted conscience and intellect.
If I "worship" my mother in such a manner that signifies even if my mother asks me to kill someone I'll blindly go and kill him, or believe that I can commit crime and my crime would be excuseable as "obedience to my mother" - I am no longer submitting to my God gifted senses and hence have fallen out of islam. If I "worship" my messenger in such a manner that if someone insults him I'll blindly go and kill him, or believe that I can commit crime and then intercession of my messenger would erase my crime - I am no longer submitting to my God gifted senses and hence have fallen out of islam. If I "worship" lifeless idols in such a manner that I can make human sacrifice for my idol, or believe that I can commit crime and then praying to the idol would erase my crime - I am no longer submitting to my God gifted senses and hence have fallen out of islam.
But if my respect for my mother, for my messenger OR for the lifeless idol only inspires me to uphold my God-gifted sense of right and wrong ? do good and refrain from bad, then whatever words or ritual expressions I use to express my respect that is harmless utterance and physical expression. At worst it may give away my ignorance, but it shouldn?t stop me from being muslim. Ignorance is not a crime, but willful ignorance is.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
I am not sure about the scientific experiment that you mentioned (I?d love to see more details on that)
http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211511/Why-born-believe-God-Its-wired-brain-says-psychologist.html
And please reconfirm ? this ?other form of communication/revelation? cannot be a realization coming out of one?s own sincere soul searching ? it has to be an ?external source??
Yes, according to my definition/understanding, you can't be a muslim by "a realization coming out of one?s own sincere soul searching". It has to be an external source.
Now that we have agreed what submit to will of God means, we need to investigate what ?submit to other god? mean. Say, if I am a bad person ? I lie, cheat and steal and even kill and rape, but I diligently perform my salaat rituals. Am I submitting to God? I am sure you?d agree ? of course not. My ?salaat ritual / prayer? is only utterance of my mouth and my random body movement ? the submission MUST be reflected in my action in life. I may be worshiping God, but I am submitting to devil (ego, pride, envy, greed etc.). Taking this same understanding from the other side those who ?worship? other gods ? but in their action in life lives the life of a righteous person ? should be considered as people who submit to God but are incorrect / ignorant in their conceptualization of God and their rituals. They may be worshiping tagoot but they are still submitting to God. Only when they overrule their God gifted conscience and intellect in favor of this ?other god? (e.g. a pagan priest making a human sacrifice) can we say they are not submitting to God, rather submitting to a tagoot.
If you are a bad person because you lie, cheat, murder, etc. then obviously you are not muslim. You have already gone against the will of God. Being a muslim is not simply the rituals such as salaat, fasting, pilgramage, etc. Even if you gave lots in charity and carried on fornicating without ever repenting or thinking that your charity and salaat will balance out the fornication then that's worse. It's worse because you are knowingly doing it rather than ignorantly. You'd be classed as a hypocrite. You would not be muslim not matter how many hajj, fasting, zakat you had given.
Salaat is prescribed by God. I think those muslims who say they are following the Quran and don't pray will be asked what prevented them from doing salaat. What the punishment, if any, will be I have no idea.
A person who is doing good deeds but carries one worshipping idols and joining partners with God but is doing it in ignorance - I don't know what will happen to them. A person who does it at the time of revelation for example at the time of the prophets such as Mohammed or Moses, or Noah, or Salih, etc. then I think it's Hell. They have no excuse since God's prophet is among them. For those nations that did not believe and turn away from shirk they were destroyed. However those who have never had a messenger/prophet directly tell them the revelation, I have no idea. It's up to God to guide us. Maybe God will forgive some and punish others.
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Ted,
They will not be asked about something which does not exist except as conjecture, if you speak of a ritual.
Keeping salateh means what kind of perception of life you have.
Salaam
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http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211511/Why-born-believe-God-Its-wired-brain-says-psychologist.html
If you are a bad person because you lie, cheat, murder, etc. then obviously you are not muslim. You have already gone against the will of God. Being a muslim is not simply the rituals such as salaat, fasting, pilgramage, etc. Even if you gave lots in charity and carried on fornicating without ever repenting or thinking that your charity and salaat will balance out the fornication then that's worse. It's worse because you are knowingly doing it rather than ignorantly. You'd be classed as a hypocrite. You would not be muslim not matter how many hajj, fasting, zakat you had given.
Salaat is prescribed by God. I think those muslims who say they are following the Quran and don't pray will be asked what prevented them from doing salaat. What the punishment, if any, will be I have no idea.
A person who is doing good deeds but carries one worshipping idols and joining partners with God but is doing it in ignorance - I don't know what will happen to them. A person who does it at the time of revelation for example at the time of the prophets such as Mohammed or Moses, or Noah, or Salih, etc. then I think it's Hell. They have no excuse since God's prophet is among them. For those nations that did not believe and turn away from shirk they were destroyed. However those who have never had a messenger/prophet directly tell them the revelation, I have no idea. It's up to God to guide us. Maybe God will forgive some and punish others.
Salam Ted.
Lots of "I don't know"s! I appreciate your candor and humbleness. Perhaps we can study Qur?an together and ponder over it to come out of these ?I don?t know?s to "we hear and we obey"! Perhaps that would be closer to Taqwa (consciousness).
These are my humble views on the three points that you highlighted based on my personal understanding of Qur?an
- Salaat is prescribed by God. I think those muslims who say they are following the Quran and don't pray will be asked what prevented them from doing salaat. What the punishment, if any, will be I have no idea.
Establishing Salaat (Akimus Salat) goes far beyond performing a ritual. A person established salaat in his life by establishing the ?respect (raddhā? of our common origin and common sustainer - the Master of Universe ? in one?s lifestyle. Yes, Qur?an does endorse the periodic ritual as well (without giving specific details about the format)? as a continued legacy from our forefather Abraham... but that ritual is only a ceremonial expression of our respect which is useful and meaningful only if we can mean and connect with the words uttered during the ritual. (Unfortunately, an absolute majority of ?musallis? fail in this regard.) Qur?an does not specify any punishment for not performing the ritual ? the punishment for not performing the ritual is that the one not performing it will loose the protection that it offers against our negative tendencies and thereby become more vulnerable in deviating from the righteous path. Indeed Salat deters from barbaity, immorality and deplorable.
If you do not do your daily studies, that does not make you fail the exam automatically, but not doing regular studies, or doing show-off studies without proper attention will make your probability of failing the exam very high. The ?study? is prescribed (Farad if you like to call it that) for you as a preparation ? the study itself is not the end goal (exam). I hope you get the analogy of salaat with the study and our righteousness of action as the exam. And don't forget students of different school follow different curriculum
- A person who is doing good deeds but carries on worshipping idols and joining partners with God but is doing it in ignorance - I don't know what will happen to them.
Joining partner with God (shirk) in terms of whose direction you follow in your life ? do you follow you God-gifted conscience or overrule it in favor of someone / something which you have assigned as partner to God ? may be a book / a scholar / a religious leader or a deity ? that is the kind of shirk that Qur?an condemns, that is the kind of shirk that will never be forgiven
(if not repented in time). How can God forgive someone who commits barbarity in the name of God!!!But if someone is following God?s will in his life anyway ? living a righteous life, punishing that someone solely based on mere utterance of word or what they ?worship? in the privacy of their home or temple would be injustice. And indeed Allah is not unjust to His slaves.
- However those who have never had a messenger/prophet directly tell them the revelation, I have no idea.
Every nations had messengers who called their people towards goodness and forbade from the deplorable. But in spite of that if the guidance really didn?t reach a group ? Then they are the ones, perhaps Allah will pardon them and Allah happens to be Pardoning, Forgiving.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam MOF, Arman,
Clarify if my understanding is right about two important concepts in Islam.
As I understand, The word shirk is something like equating existing things to God, a process of separating him, limiting His capacity.
Each one of us see his signs or sense Him differently, some in His love, some in his ultimate power, nature of destruction, in stability or unlimited wealth, as a creator and some like me see him as universal Goodness ie. one who is just. etc.
we have different names as per our language and above ideas.
The point here is to take Every signs of him truly represent Only one, not of many and any one who thinks otherwise is doing shirk.The term muslim just means one who submits, so to whom one submits is important as like the totality of the submission,
here submission to Him/Allah alone brings in the freedom rather than restriction.
Everyone submits to things like the govt's or king's law, our parents, our imams, our cultural restrictions, our books etc...
they are all good and important,
but then as "muslims" one has the exception and freedom in the name of his submission to One God?
As Arman says here that is finality of our God gifted consciousness of what is right. -
If you do not do your daily studies, that does not make you fail the exam automatically, but not doing regular studies, or doing show-off studies without proper attention will make your probability of failing the exam very high. The ?study? is prescribed (Farad if you like to call it that) for you as a preparation ? the study itself is not the end goal (exam). I hope you get the analogy of salaat with the study and our righteousness of action as the exam. And don't forget students of different school follow different curriculum
I think this is another topic of discussion which I'd like to take up with MoF and yourself. For now I'll concentrate on defining the term "muslim" as it's difficult for me to have more than one thread of thought.
Joining partner with God (shirk) in terms of whose direction you follow in your life ? do you follow you God-gifted conscience or overrule it in favor of someone / something which you have assigned as partner to God ? may be a book / a scholar / a religious leader or a deity ? that is the kind of shirk that Qur?an condemns, that is the kind of shirk that will never be forgiven
(if not repented in time). How can God forgive someone who commits barbarity in the name of God!!!But if someone is following God?s will in his life anyway ? living a righteous life, punishing that someone solely based on mere utterance of word or what they ?worship? in the privacy of their home or temple would be injustice. And indeed Allah is not unjust to His slaves.
The problem is that pagans and Christians do believe they are following their God-gifted conscience. Ask any pagan or Christian. So how do you get such people to recognise what is the "true" God-gifted conscience. I doubt pagans and Christians feel any guilt/remorse/injustice when they join partners with God or claim Jesus is the son of God. In fact I think it's the opposite. They rejoice, they are happy, feel fulfilled, etc.
You need something more than just saying to these people to follow their God-gifted conscience. It needs to be something concrete. This is where I believe revelation comes in. God is sending guidance on the earth so people can correct themselves. As believers in one God we can use the arguments in the Quran to argue (in a nice way) with the pagans and Christians.
At the end of the day those who are living righteous lives but still worshipping idols or saying Jesus is the son of God can never be classed as muslims as they are not worshipping God alone as he has commanded. They simply don't meet the definition.
As you have quite rightly asked for I need to quote verses from the Quran to justify my definition of muslim. I shall be doing that shortly, just trying to get the wording right
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Salaam brother amin,
I am still working on the exact definition for shirk, but I can define it accurately enough that it makes sense. Shirk is to associate a (religious in the context of Quran) foundation and the word may be used negatively to refer to a sectarian mindset with invented religious practices and does not necessarily mean you associate various gods in the context. It seems dependent upon the context.
What is needed from my part still is to find out when the word is used in the context whether it can also take a positive meaning in case you implement the right perception on your life. I have seen indications while deciphering the original Arabic that it may be so.
Most importantly "shirk" is not what people generally think. Oftentimes it refers to sectarianism and to have associated a doctrine which has no basis and is mere conjecture, and they make the living conditions for people worse because of being zealously enforced.
Salaam
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The problem is that pagans and Christians do believe they are following their God-gifted conscience. Ask any pagan or Christian. So how do you get such people to recognise what is the "true" God-gifted conscience. I doubt pagans and Christians feel any guilt/remorse/injustice when they join partners with God or claim Jesus is the son of God. In fact I think it's the opposite. They rejoice, they are happy, feel fulfilled, etc.
Salam Ted
If you are too eager to define the righteous Christians and Pagans (by Pagans I mean those who accept ritual Idol worship) as non-muslims - and that eagerness is your basis of defining the term "muslim" then I would have to say I disagree with you. Let not your sectarian envy dictate your theological understanding. There is NO DIFFERENCE in their God-gifted conscience and our God-gifted conscience. Our God is One God. He is the Master of Mankind, the Master of Universe.
Per my humble understanding Christians like Mother Terresa and Hindus like Mahatma Gandhi do qualify for the Qur'anic term muslim (submissive). Perhaps not "precise muslim" like Abraham, but muslim none-the-less. I neither call them mushrik nor kafir. And yes, I'd go as much as to say - I don't know what their destiny is in afterlife, but I woundn't mind joining them. My study of Qur'an, my rituals and my struggle is to please my Master so that He counts me amongst the righteous.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The error for Christians as well as Muslims is that they struggle to visualize/materialize God. Jesus was God in a sense because he was fully assimilated in the realm and had submitted himself fully to be absorbed in the consciousness of Allah and hence cease to exist as an ego and separately. He outright said and did the will of the Rabb in symbiosis.
The Christians error is that they make a separation of Jesus and treat him differently as they could be themselves, despite that Jesus invited everyone to do like him and also yield the same results. There is just one realm and that is in Allah. But these people make a separation called 'the Trinity' which is utterly incorrect where they say "Father, Son and the Holy Spirit" as if they are separate entities. Jesus spoke of getting absorbed.
But to say Muslims are nearer to God is just a misconception and arrogance since they instead make a separation of an entity called Allah. They visualize a clearly separate image and thus fall victims of Paganism. Those who wish to be near God need to show it through their life perception and actions. It is entirely an affinity thing and personal in assimilation with Allah.
In ways there is no God but just one single consciousness everything exist within. But that consciousness' personal address is 'Rabb'. You call upon the foundation itself. If you utter a prayer it is the foundation itself which will "listen", and you do not even need to open your mouth and God knows what you need because the consciousness of God is within you.
Salaam
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Armanaziz,
2131 Behold! his Lord said to him "Bow (thy will to Me)" He said "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
2132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
Please take a look at the above 2 verses, and also those before and after it as they help to clarify the context they have been revealed in. The first verse is where God tells Abraham to submit to God and Abraham verbally agrees. The second verse is where God tells us that this is what Abraham left as a legacy to his sons as did Jacob. That is that God has chosen Islam, submitting to God will, as their faith. God is not telling us that Abraham submitted to his God-gifted conscience and neither did he Abraham tell his sons to submit to their God-gifted conscience. The faith, islam, was chosen by God for them. The keyword is chosen. God does not remind them that they are born with a God-gifted conscience to do right and worship him, God actually has chosen that religion for them.
2278 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
The verse above says that God has chosen the followers of the prophet Mohammed and has named them muslims. Named them muslims in the Quran and in earlier revelation. This further supports the idea that we are not born as muslims but we become muslims.
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Per my humble understanding Christians like Mother Terresa and Hindus like Mahatma Gandhi do qualify for the Qur'anic term muslim (submissive). Perhaps not "precise muslim" like Abraham, but muslim none-the-less. I neither call them mushrik nor kafir.
I think you're confusing doing good deeds/being righteous with being a person who submits themself to God. There is an important difference.
Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi are clearly not muslims if they have joined partners with God or believe in a number of gods. Their good deeds does not make them muslim. Most likely there beliefs were due to lack of knowledge. God will decide whether to accept their good deeds. But this in no way makes them muslim.
Being a muslim is a term given to those who submit to their will to God. It's as simple as that. I agree we should not call people mushrik or kafir as it is insulting and demeaning. Only God can call who he wants with those words and even so the word kafir was not insulting at the time it was revealed in the Quran. God was/is actually very gracious to those who are lacking in knowledge or on the wrong path. Kafir only became insulting when so called Muslims started using it the wrong way.
I'm also not sure how you cannot be a "precise muslim" but yet be a muslim none-the-less. If you're worshipping many gods or saying that God has sons/daughters then you simply cannot be muslim. You can be a good person but not muslim.
I believe you are confusing being righteous and doing good deeds with being a muslim. There is an important difference.
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I believe you are confusing being righteous and doing good deeds with being a muslim. There is an important difference.
Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi are clearly not muslims if they have joined partners with God or believe in a number of gods. Their good deeds does not make them muslim. Most likely there beliefs were due to lack of knowledge. God will decide whether to accept their good deeds. But this in no way makes them muslim.
Salam Ted.
I cannot force you to change your belief. I have studied the works of Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi well enough to understand what they believed and I personally do not see either of them submitting to more than one God. I do not see either of them to submit to other than their sense of right and wrong given by Allah.
I'm also not sure how you cannot be a "precise muslim" but yet be a muslim none-the-less.
If there was no difference between a precise muslim (hanifan musliman) and only a muslim - the author of Qur'an would not have used the unneceesary word hanifan (precise) in 367.
If you're worshipping many gods or saying that God has sons/daughters then you simply cannot be muslim. You can be a good person but not muslim.
I challange you to show that Mahatma Gandhi "worshiped many gods" or that Mother Teressa said "God has sons/daughters ". That is what some people say distorting what other people said - that is merely utterance from their month. They imitate the statements of those who repressed (faith) from before. Let's refrain from conjectures about other people's faith.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam,
"Muslim" is an attitude, just like one saying I will only speak truth or I will do only good etc..
this attitude comes in when we understand with reasoning and good faith that our old rituals and customs become meaningless and is exceeding a limit, saying I will only submit to Him alone.
my understanding on verse 2278
....Abraham named(called) his as a group of muslims and the Rasool acted as an example for us and we also become one for the others....
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Salam,
"Muslim" is an attitude, just like one saying I will only speak truth or I will do only good etc..
this attitude comes in when we understand with reasoning and good faith that our old rituals and customs become meaningless and is exceeding a limit, saying I will only submit to Him alone.
my understanding on verse 2278
....Abraham named(called) his as a group of muslims and the Rasool acted as an example for us and we also become one for the others....
Salam brother Amin.
So the from the attitude muslim, our forefather Abraham derived the name "the Muslimeen (َ" for those who followed his religion (millat)? That is a very interesting observation. Using the "Muslim" as a proper name thus has a Quranic support!
Let me admit, I missed this point before. Thanks for sharing.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The root means sound, firm (Arabic words have just one innate meaning). When Abraham replies he says "I am firm towards the Rabb of the Understanding" and could be translated more coherently as "faithful/reliable". The root has no connotation which is submit. People are looking for the wrong word.
When you say salaam to someone you wish them to be healthy (lit. sound/firm).
The word to submit is . Then you are submitted to service although it is more like a binding.
Salaam
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By other words saying you are Muslim is not much different from saying you are a "Believer" (although I dislike the word due to its inaccuracy).
Hence Muslim is just a term to say that you have faith although with heavy derivation from soundness. If Abraham wanted to say they were Muslimeen then it refers to that these are of spiritual soundness/completion.
Salaam