Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Salam MOF, Arman,
Clarify if my understanding is right about two important concepts in Islam.
As I understand, The word shirk is something like equating existing things to God, a process of separating him, limiting His capacity.
Each one of us see his signs or sense Him differently, some in His love, some in his ultimate power, nature of destruction, in stability or unlimited wealth, as a creator and some like me see him as universal Goodness ie. one who is just. etc.
we have different names as per our language and above ideas.
The point here is to take Every signs of him truly represent Only one, not of many and any one who thinks otherwise is doing shirk.The term muslim just means one who submits, so to whom one submits is important as like the totality of the submission,
here submission to Him/Allah alone brings in the freedom rather than restriction.
Everyone submits to things like the govt's or king's law, our parents, our imams, our cultural restrictions, our books etc...
they are all good and important,
but then as "muslims" one has the exception and freedom in the name of his submission to One God?
As Arman says here that is finality of our God gifted consciousness of what is right. -
If you do not do your daily studies, that does not make you fail the exam automatically, but not doing regular studies, or doing show-off studies without proper attention will make your probability of failing the exam very high. The ?study? is prescribed (Farad if you like to call it that) for you as a preparation ? the study itself is not the end goal (exam). I hope you get the analogy of salaat with the study and our righteousness of action as the exam. And don't forget students of different school follow different curriculum
I think this is another topic of discussion which I'd like to take up with MoF and yourself. For now I'll concentrate on defining the term "muslim" as it's difficult for me to have more than one thread of thought.
Joining partner with God (shirk) in terms of whose direction you follow in your life ? do you follow you God-gifted conscience or overrule it in favor of someone / something which you have assigned as partner to God ? may be a book / a scholar / a religious leader or a deity ? that is the kind of shirk that Qur?an condemns, that is the kind of shirk that will never be forgiven
(if not repented in time). How can God forgive someone who commits barbarity in the name of God!!!But if someone is following God?s will in his life anyway ? living a righteous life, punishing that someone solely based on mere utterance of word or what they ?worship? in the privacy of their home or temple would be injustice. And indeed Allah is not unjust to His slaves.
The problem is that pagans and Christians do believe they are following their God-gifted conscience. Ask any pagan or Christian. So how do you get such people to recognise what is the "true" God-gifted conscience. I doubt pagans and Christians feel any guilt/remorse/injustice when they join partners with God or claim Jesus is the son of God. In fact I think it's the opposite. They rejoice, they are happy, feel fulfilled, etc.
You need something more than just saying to these people to follow their God-gifted conscience. It needs to be something concrete. This is where I believe revelation comes in. God is sending guidance on the earth so people can correct themselves. As believers in one God we can use the arguments in the Quran to argue (in a nice way) with the pagans and Christians.
At the end of the day those who are living righteous lives but still worshipping idols or saying Jesus is the son of God can never be classed as muslims as they are not worshipping God alone as he has commanded. They simply don't meet the definition.
As you have quite rightly asked for I need to quote verses from the Quran to justify my definition of muslim. I shall be doing that shortly, just trying to get the wording right
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Salaam brother amin,
I am still working on the exact definition for shirk, but I can define it accurately enough that it makes sense. Shirk is to associate a (religious in the context of Quran) foundation and the word may be used negatively to refer to a sectarian mindset with invented religious practices and does not necessarily mean you associate various gods in the context. It seems dependent upon the context.
What is needed from my part still is to find out when the word is used in the context whether it can also take a positive meaning in case you implement the right perception on your life. I have seen indications while deciphering the original Arabic that it may be so.
Most importantly "shirk" is not what people generally think. Oftentimes it refers to sectarianism and to have associated a doctrine which has no basis and is mere conjecture, and they make the living conditions for people worse because of being zealously enforced.
Salaam
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The problem is that pagans and Christians do believe they are following their God-gifted conscience. Ask any pagan or Christian. So how do you get such people to recognise what is the "true" God-gifted conscience. I doubt pagans and Christians feel any guilt/remorse/injustice when they join partners with God or claim Jesus is the son of God. In fact I think it's the opposite. They rejoice, they are happy, feel fulfilled, etc.
Salam Ted
If you are too eager to define the righteous Christians and Pagans (by Pagans I mean those who accept ritual Idol worship) as non-muslims - and that eagerness is your basis of defining the term "muslim" then I would have to say I disagree with you. Let not your sectarian envy dictate your theological understanding. There is NO DIFFERENCE in their God-gifted conscience and our God-gifted conscience. Our God is One God. He is the Master of Mankind, the Master of Universe.
Per my humble understanding Christians like Mother Terresa and Hindus like Mahatma Gandhi do qualify for the Qur'anic term muslim (submissive). Perhaps not "precise muslim" like Abraham, but muslim none-the-less. I neither call them mushrik nor kafir. And yes, I'd go as much as to say - I don't know what their destiny is in afterlife, but I woundn't mind joining them. My study of Qur'an, my rituals and my struggle is to please my Master so that He counts me amongst the righteous.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The error for Christians as well as Muslims is that they struggle to visualize/materialize God. Jesus was God in a sense because he was fully assimilated in the realm and had submitted himself fully to be absorbed in the consciousness of Allah and hence cease to exist as an ego and separately. He outright said and did the will of the Rabb in symbiosis.
The Christians error is that they make a separation of Jesus and treat him differently as they could be themselves, despite that Jesus invited everyone to do like him and also yield the same results. There is just one realm and that is in Allah. But these people make a separation called 'the Trinity' which is utterly incorrect where they say "Father, Son and the Holy Spirit" as if they are separate entities. Jesus spoke of getting absorbed.
But to say Muslims are nearer to God is just a misconception and arrogance since they instead make a separation of an entity called Allah. They visualize a clearly separate image and thus fall victims of Paganism. Those who wish to be near God need to show it through their life perception and actions. It is entirely an affinity thing and personal in assimilation with Allah.
In ways there is no God but just one single consciousness everything exist within. But that consciousness' personal address is 'Rabb'. You call upon the foundation itself. If you utter a prayer it is the foundation itself which will "listen", and you do not even need to open your mouth and God knows what you need because the consciousness of God is within you.
Salaam
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Armanaziz,
2131 Behold! his Lord said to him "Bow (thy will to Me)" He said "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
2132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
Please take a look at the above 2 verses, and also those before and after it as they help to clarify the context they have been revealed in. The first verse is where God tells Abraham to submit to God and Abraham verbally agrees. The second verse is where God tells us that this is what Abraham left as a legacy to his sons as did Jacob. That is that God has chosen Islam, submitting to God will, as their faith. God is not telling us that Abraham submitted to his God-gifted conscience and neither did he Abraham tell his sons to submit to their God-gifted conscience. The faith, islam, was chosen by God for them. The keyword is chosen. God does not remind them that they are born with a God-gifted conscience to do right and worship him, God actually has chosen that religion for them.
2278 And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
The verse above says that God has chosen the followers of the prophet Mohammed and has named them muslims. Named them muslims in the Quran and in earlier revelation. This further supports the idea that we are not born as muslims but we become muslims.
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Per my humble understanding Christians like Mother Terresa and Hindus like Mahatma Gandhi do qualify for the Qur'anic term muslim (submissive). Perhaps not "precise muslim" like Abraham, but muslim none-the-less. I neither call them mushrik nor kafir.
I think you're confusing doing good deeds/being righteous with being a person who submits themself to God. There is an important difference.
Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi are clearly not muslims if they have joined partners with God or believe in a number of gods. Their good deeds does not make them muslim. Most likely there beliefs were due to lack of knowledge. God will decide whether to accept their good deeds. But this in no way makes them muslim.
Being a muslim is a term given to those who submit to their will to God. It's as simple as that. I agree we should not call people mushrik or kafir as it is insulting and demeaning. Only God can call who he wants with those words and even so the word kafir was not insulting at the time it was revealed in the Quran. God was/is actually very gracious to those who are lacking in knowledge or on the wrong path. Kafir only became insulting when so called Muslims started using it the wrong way.
I'm also not sure how you cannot be a "precise muslim" but yet be a muslim none-the-less. If you're worshipping many gods or saying that God has sons/daughters then you simply cannot be muslim. You can be a good person but not muslim.
I believe you are confusing being righteous and doing good deeds with being a muslim. There is an important difference.
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I believe you are confusing being righteous and doing good deeds with being a muslim. There is an important difference.
Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi are clearly not muslims if they have joined partners with God or believe in a number of gods. Their good deeds does not make them muslim. Most likely there beliefs were due to lack of knowledge. God will decide whether to accept their good deeds. But this in no way makes them muslim.
Salam Ted.
I cannot force you to change your belief. I have studied the works of Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi well enough to understand what they believed and I personally do not see either of them submitting to more than one God. I do not see either of them to submit to other than their sense of right and wrong given by Allah.
I'm also not sure how you cannot be a "precise muslim" but yet be a muslim none-the-less.
If there was no difference between a precise muslim (hanifan musliman) and only a muslim - the author of Qur'an would not have used the unneceesary word hanifan (precise) in 367.
If you're worshipping many gods or saying that God has sons/daughters then you simply cannot be muslim. You can be a good person but not muslim.
I challange you to show that Mahatma Gandhi "worshiped many gods" or that Mother Teressa said "God has sons/daughters ". That is what some people say distorting what other people said - that is merely utterance from their month. They imitate the statements of those who repressed (faith) from before. Let's refrain from conjectures about other people's faith.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam,
"Muslim" is an attitude, just like one saying I will only speak truth or I will do only good etc..
this attitude comes in when we understand with reasoning and good faith that our old rituals and customs become meaningless and is exceeding a limit, saying I will only submit to Him alone.
my understanding on verse 2278
....Abraham named(called) his as a group of muslims and the Rasool acted as an example for us and we also become one for the others....
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Salam,
"Muslim" is an attitude, just like one saying I will only speak truth or I will do only good etc..
this attitude comes in when we understand with reasoning and good faith that our old rituals and customs become meaningless and is exceeding a limit, saying I will only submit to Him alone.
my understanding on verse 2278
....Abraham named(called) his as a group of muslims and the Rasool acted as an example for us and we also become one for the others....
Salam brother Amin.
So the from the attitude muslim, our forefather Abraham derived the name "the Muslimeen (َ" for those who followed his religion (millat)? That is a very interesting observation. Using the "Muslim" as a proper name thus has a Quranic support!
Let me admit, I missed this point before. Thanks for sharing.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The root means sound, firm (Arabic words have just one innate meaning). When Abraham replies he says "I am firm towards the Rabb of the Understanding" and could be translated more coherently as "faithful/reliable". The root has no connotation which is submit. People are looking for the wrong word.
When you say salaam to someone you wish them to be healthy (lit. sound/firm).
The word to submit is . Then you are submitted to service although it is more like a binding.
Salaam
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By other words saying you are Muslim is not much different from saying you are a "Believer" (although I dislike the word due to its inaccuracy).
Hence Muslim is just a term to say that you have faith although with heavy derivation from soundness. If Abraham wanted to say they were Muslimeen then it refers to that these are of spiritual soundness/completion.
Salaam
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I have studied the works of Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi well enough to understand what they believed and I personally do not see either of them submitting to more than one God. I do not see either of them to submit to other than their sense of right and wrong given by Allah.
I have no idea what Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi believed in which is why I added the clause "if". It's all well and good if they did actually believe in one God. Either way God knows them best. But that still does not make them muslim since they were not following a revelation/book from God.
As I have explained before, doing good using your sense of right and wrong as god has designed you is not the same as being muslim. It simply makes you a believer who does righteous deeds.
It's God's will/choice that he wants to have separate nations with different laws and rituals but all following the same message.. If God prescribes certain rituals and laws for a specific nation then they have to obey and follow it in order to classed as submitting to God's will. The Jews have their own laws the Muslims have theirs. If Jews and Muslims decide not to obey then they are being disobedient. They are still believers but are choosing not to do God's will which is quite a serious thing.
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Salam,
"Muslim" is an attitude, just like one saying I will only speak truth or I will do only good etc..
this attitude comes in when we understand with reasoning and good faith that our old rituals and customs become meaningless and is exceeding a limit, saying I will only submit to Him alone.
my understanding on verse 2278
....Abraham named(called) his as a group of muslims and the Rasool acted as an example for us and we also become one for the others....
I think it's more than that.
I don't believe it was Abraham who did the naming but it was God.
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I have no idea what Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi believed in which is why I added the clause "if". It's all well and good if they did actually believe in one God. Either way God knows them best. But that still does not make them muslim since they were not following a revelation/book from God.
As I have explained before, doing good using your sense of right and wrong as god has designed you is not the same as being muslim. It simply makes you a believer who does righteous deeds.
It's God's will/choice that he wants to have separate nations with different laws and rituals but all following the same message.. If God prescribes certain rituals and laws for a specific nation then they have to obey and follow it in order to classed as submitting to God's will. The Jews have their own laws the Muslims have theirs. If Jews and Muslims decide not to obey then they are being disobedient. They are still believers but are choosing not to do God's will which is quite a serious thing.
Salam Ted
If you are using "Muslim" as a proper noun to denote a group with a specific religious identity then I am inclined to agree with you. However the generic term muslim (adjective / active participle) as used in Qur'an has a more generic implication.
I'll wait for your "Quranic" proofs that to be muslim one needs to follow a "book".
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
One is a Muslim if they are a good character (sound). Then they are aslama l'Rabb since that is faith. They have realized (amen/amen ن about God. It is all about making a realization within yourself (your mind). It reflects back at yourself.
The "Commandments" are there as a "rule of thumb" while the Paganistic rituals are what humans have chosen to use in worship of a separate image.
Salaam
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The "Commandments" are there as a "rule of thumb"...
Rule of thumb? So not being adulterous, murder, stealing, lying, etc are all a "rule of thumb"?
God threatening/warning those against disobeying him are things to be taken lightly? The Jews were punished for breaking a "rule of thumb"? -
I'll wait for your "Quranic" proofs that to be muslim one needs to follow a "book".
Can you please take a look and give me your thoughts on the post below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg363915#msg363915
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Salam Ted
Thanks for highlighting this post... I actually missed it earlier.
On 2131-132, when Qur'an says and "His Master asked him to submit and he submitted"... I do not understand this as a face-to-face kind of conversation. Allah is talking to every creation every moment. Whenever He wants something to happen He says "Be" and it is. That is how everything happened.
When Allah told Abraham "Submit"... I do not thing he actually physically heard a voice in his ear and followed the voice... rather I believe he found an inspiration inside himself that he needed to submit to one and only Master of the universe. Just to remind you... Allah clarified in Qur'an that He never speaks with a human being directly except from behind a veil or through a messenger. Furthermore, the entire episode of how Abraham internally came to the decision of submitting to the Master of the universe ... from stars, to moon, to sun to finally Allah... has been elaborated later in Qur'an.
On 2278 - yes I have already acknowledged I missed this point. I thought brother Amin was raising this, but now it seems you were the one to first raise this in this topic. So thanks you- I surely learned from this discussion. It appears from the verse that the generic term "muslim" was chosen as a specific name for the followers of Abrahamic millat (religion). That's why I said to you in my last post, the word muslim can be used as a proper noun "the Muslim" as well as an arabic active participle / adjective muslim. This is like "nasara" generically means helper, but "Nasara" is also the label of a religious group. I am not claiming M. Terresa or M. Gandhi belonged to a religious group called "the Muslims". If they themselves did not accept that label, who am I to give them that label? But the generic attitude "muslim" is a common attribute of all sensible and faithful humans. Whoever submits to his God gifted sense of right and wrong qualifies to be a muslim. When Qur'an says Islam is the only deen acceptable to Allah - that is the kind of islam/muslim the verse is refering to. This is an attribute inherently built into human soul - not a learned or acquired faculty. Up to now that is my conclusion.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman