Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?

Man_of_Faith

By other words saying you are Muslim is not much different from saying you are a "Believer" (although I dislike the word due to its inaccuracy).

Hence Muslim is just a term to say that you have faith although with heavy derivation from soundness. If Abraham wanted to say they were Muslimeen then it refers to that these are of spiritual soundness/completion.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

I have studied the works of Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi well enough to understand what they believed and I personally do not see either of them submitting to more than one God. I do not see either of them to submit to other than their sense of right and wrong given by Allah.

I have no idea what Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi believed in which is why I added the clause "if". It's all well and good if they did actually believe in one God. Either way God knows them best. But that still does not make them muslim since they were not following a revelation/book from God.

As I have explained before, doing good using your sense of right and wrong as god has designed you is not the same as being muslim. It simply makes you a believer who does righteous deeds.

It's God's will/choice that he wants to have separate nations with different laws and rituals but all following the same message.. If God prescribes certain rituals and laws for a specific nation then they have to obey and follow it in order to classed as submitting to God's will. The Jews have their own laws the Muslims have theirs. If Jews and Muslims decide not to obey then they are being disobedient. They are still believers but are choosing not to do God's will which is quite a serious thing.

My_Name_is_Ted

Salam,

"Muslim" is an attitude, just like one saying I will only speak truth or I will do only good etc..

this attitude comes in when we understand with reasoning and good faith that our old rituals and customs become meaningless and is exceeding a limit, saying I will only submit to Him alone.

my understanding on verse 2278

....Abraham named(called) his as a group of muslims and the Rasool acted as an example for us and we also become one for the others....

I think it's more than that.

I don't believe it was Abraham who did the naming but it was God.

Armanaziz

I have no idea what Mother Teressa and Mahatma Gandhi believed in which is why I added the clause "if". It's all well and good if they did actually believe in one God. Either way God knows them best. But that still does not make them muslim since they were not following a revelation/book from God.

As I have explained before, doing good using your sense of right and wrong as god has designed you is not the same as being muslim. It simply makes you a believer who does righteous deeds.

It's God's will/choice that he wants to have separate nations with different laws and rituals but all following the same message.. If God prescribes certain rituals and laws for a specific nation then they have to obey and follow it in order to classed as submitting to God's will. The Jews have their own laws the Muslims have theirs. If Jews and Muslims decide not to obey then they are being disobedient. They are still believers but are choosing not to do God's will which is quite a serious thing.

Salam Ted

If you are using "Muslim" as a proper noun to denote a group with a specific religious identity then I am inclined to agree with you. However the generic term muslim (adjective / active participle) as used in Qur'an has a more generic implication.

I'll wait for your "Quranic" proofs that to be muslim one needs to follow a "book".

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

One is a Muslim if they are a good character (sound). Then they are aslama l'Rabb since that is faith. They have realized (amen/amen &#1606 about God. It is all about making a realization within yourself (your mind). It reflects back at yourself.

The "Commandments" are there as a "rule of thumb" while the Paganistic rituals are what humans have chosen to use in worship of a separate image.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

The "Commandments" are there as a "rule of thumb"...

Rule of thumb? So not being adulterous, murder, stealing, lying, etc are all a "rule of thumb"?
God threatening/warning those against disobeying him are things to be taken lightly? The Jews were punished for breaking a "rule of thumb"?

My_Name_is_Ted

I'll wait for your "Quranic" proofs that to be muslim one needs to follow a "book".

Can you please take a look and give me your thoughts on the post below

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg363915#msg363915

Armanaziz

Salam Ted

Thanks for highlighting this post... I actually missed it earlier.

On 2131-132, when Qur'an says and "His Master asked him to submit and he submitted"... I do not understand this as a face-to-face kind of conversation. Allah is talking to every creation every moment. Whenever He wants something to happen He says "Be" and it is. That is how everything happened.

When Allah told Abraham "Submit"... I do not thing he actually physically heard a voice in his ear and followed the voice... rather I believe he found an inspiration inside himself that he needed to submit to one and only Master of the universe. Just to remind you... Allah clarified in Qur'an that He never speaks with a human being directly except from behind a veil or through a messenger. Furthermore, the entire episode of how Abraham internally came to the decision of submitting to the Master of the universe ... from stars, to moon, to sun to finally Allah... has been elaborated later in Qur'an.

On 2278 - yes I have already acknowledged I missed this point. I thought brother Amin was raising this, but now it seems you were the one to first raise this in this topic. So thanks you- I surely learned from this discussion. It appears from the verse that the generic term "muslim" was chosen as a specific name for the followers of Abrahamic millat (religion). That's why I said to you in my last post, the word muslim can be used as a proper noun "the Muslim" as well as an arabic active participle / adjective muslim. This is like "nasara" generically means helper, but "Nasara" is also the label of a religious group. I am not claiming M. Terresa or M. Gandhi belonged to a religious group called "the Muslims". If they themselves did not accept that label, who am I to give them that label? But the generic attitude "muslim" is a common attribute of all sensible and faithful humans. Whoever submits to his God gifted sense of right and wrong qualifies to be a muslim. When Qur'an says Islam is the only deen acceptable to Allah - that is the kind of islam/muslim the verse is refering to. This is an attribute inherently built into human soul - not a learned or acquired faculty. Up to now that is my conclusion.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

amin

Salam MOF,

I understand your idea of firmness in belief to the word "submit",

the Semetic root slm points to wholeness, in good relationship.
I submit looks to be an other way of saying I am in Good relationship, a better relationship.

We can consider the other option to not have better relationship with God, by bringing in partners, is
to have difference of opinion about God;s ability and so not having a good relationship.

The important thing to me looks to be the idea every signs of him is the same ONE.

Man_of_Faith

My Name is Ted,

They are spiritual guidelines and it is a sin to violate those, but they are not sterile laws, even if they may bring condemnation.

There is difference between judging a person with physical punishment in this world and the punishment that comes later.

And you can always try to persecute someone for jealousy or every time they lie. Or vain talk.

That is why God rather see that we forgive in this life. With mercy you actually bring more light than with a cold and sterile judgment.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Amin,

I only agree with soundness/firmness. The submission thing is just a sectarian exaggeration to make it feel more Pagan. Although there is submission but that means full absorption into the image of Allah, and you are looking for a different word.

When you say you aslama then you mean you are reliable, firm towards. Indirectly perhaps it can be understood as submission, but the word does not mean that itself. I would say it implies on faithfulness.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

I only agree with soundness/firmness.

Peace, an example is docile/acquiescent cow also applicable to people that can be taught...

267 and when said Moses to folk his surely the god he directs you that thou slaughter ye of cow said they do you take us mock of said I seek refuge in the god lest I being from the ignorant 268 said they invite for us lord your shows for us what it is said surely he says surely she/it cow not old and not virgin/young middle aged between such so do ye of what are commanded 269 said they invite for us lord your shows for us what color hers/its said surely he says surely she/it cow yellowish bright color hers/its pleasing the onlookers 270 said they invite for us lord your shows for us what it is surely the cow similar/alike upon/to us and surely we if wills the god of those guided being 271 said surely he says surely she/it cow not trained to raise the earth and not to irrigate the harvest musallamatun not blemish in her/it said they henceforth thou came with the truth so slaughtered they her/it and not near they of doing

Ankole-Watusi cattle history

http//www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/breeds/cattle/ankolewatusi/index.htm

http//factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub362/item1506.html

http//factsanddetails.com/media/2/20120207-livestock%20702px-Fetekti3.jpg

Man_of_Faith

I disagree with the translation choice there. It refers to that it is of fine specimen, sound... and without blemish.

The root means that something is sound.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted

My Name is Ted,

They are spiritual guidelines and it is a sin to violate those, but they are not sterile laws, even if they may bring condemnation.

There is difference between judging a person with physical punishment in this world and the punishment that comes later.

And you can always try to persecute someone for jealousy or every time they lie. Or vain talk.

That is why God rather see that we forgive in this life. With mercy you actually bring more light than with a cold and sterile judgment.

Salaam

MoF,

I am rather baffled at your responses. First you say the commandments are a "rule of thumb", see definition below, which means they're principles which are not intended to be strictly accurate or reliable for every situation. Then you say it's a sin to violate them and they are not sterile laws. What on earth does "sterile laws"/"sterile judgement" mean?

A rule of thumb is a principle with broad application that is not intended to be strictly accurate or reliable for every situation. It is an easily learned and easily applied procedure for approximately calculating or recalling some value, or for making some determination.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb

Are you saying that if someone commits adultery or breaks some other law in the Quran we don't have to punish them according to how it is prescribed in the Quran?

My_Name_is_Ted

Armanaziz,

I challange you to show that Mahatma Gandhi "worshiped many gods" or that Mother Teressa said "God has sons/daughters ".

Let's say for arguments sake that Mother Teressa and Mahtma Gandhi did actually worship many gods and associate them as partners to God. They did the same good works as before they died.

Would you class them as muslims?

There are many many Christians that do very good charitable work and are selfless, they put others needs before theirs. However they worship Jesus as the Son of God and/or claim he is part of the Trinity.

Would you class them as muslims?

My_Name_is_Ted

Ted,

They will not be asked about something which does not exist except as conjecture, if you speak of a ritual.

Keeping salateh means what kind of perception of life you have.

Salaam

MoF,

So what do you make of the following verses?

4142 The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over- reach them When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;

56 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam Ted,

Exactly, the "commandments" is guidance with a broad application and not just some dull law.

For example, if the decree to Moses said to not kill anyone, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not even be angry with someone.

Or if the decree says do not commit adultery, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not look upon another man/woman with lust, even if the decree drew the line at adultery.

You see that the list is more than just a sterile law but rules of thumb. Obviously it is understandable if someone wishes to bring a person to justice over a murder, but that is up to the juridical system and if the family of the victim wishes to forgive the culprit (if the justice system allows that). The list itself is containing general guidelines, open to interpretation although obviously they say what they say and you cannot change or omit any one of them or you are one of those 'kafaroon' (fabricators) threatened with Hell in Quran.

The list is all the way helping with what is spiritually beneficial for a person. Jealousy also entered its way into the list and that does not adversely affect anyone but yourself. In fact jealousy can cause a person to break other parameters of it because it builds up negative energy in the victim (oneself/ego) and causes the person to think worldly. If one feels envy then they have missed the point in why they live.

Punishment is up to the community. In the "Western" world it is not illegal to commit adultery and you cannot thus prosecute a person guilty of this sin and emotionally hurting his or her spouse. According to the guidelines it is spiritually detrimental to commit adultery and it weighs heavily on the negative side and the person will get what they deserve whether you punish it or not. And a court can only kill the bodies while the Rabb can kill both body and soul. It does not really affect much in the end whether you punish or not in this world.

Murderers, especially serial-killers, are obviously another case and they have killed another person's body and it goes under "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life", but yet if there can be mercy this is much better than prosecution. You end the life of a person who could perhaps repent and reform with some love if you apply the death penalty.

Ah well. I gave you more information than you bargained form

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Ted,

4142 is quite easy to turn right. It speaks of hypocrites which appear to be well-mannered but just do it to show themselves representational while their inside is actually a mess.

56 speaks of behavior in general. I have a few months old prototype translation somewhere on the forum, but I could probably make a better if I once again sat down and analyzed it now.

The passages are a mess translation-wise as you can see which is true for a grand portion of Quran. I need more time to be able to translate quickly on demand.

, the root refers to what you follow and it reflects on your own ways. You can relate it to one's perception of life. One ought to be mindful of their ways . This is the criteria number one that God gives to Moses.

Obviously a person who pay attention to salat follows God. People with Pagan minds have rendered it a ritual when relating this innocent word with prayer. While prayer is not wrong, salateh is not that.

And prayers do not help the slightest unless one seeks to realize them. Otherwise it is just empty words to God. You do not read Al-Fatiha just as a ritual but it is meant that you should realize what you say.

Salaam

My_Name_is_Ted