Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
-
The "Commandments" are there as a "rule of thumb"...
Rule of thumb? So not being adulterous, murder, stealing, lying, etc are all a "rule of thumb"?
God threatening/warning those against disobeying him are things to be taken lightly? The Jews were punished for breaking a "rule of thumb"? -
I'll wait for your "Quranic" proofs that to be muslim one needs to follow a "book".
Can you please take a look and give me your thoughts on the post below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607181.msg363915#msg363915
-
Salam Ted
Thanks for highlighting this post... I actually missed it earlier.
On 2131-132, when Qur'an says and "His Master asked him to submit and he submitted"... I do not understand this as a face-to-face kind of conversation. Allah is talking to every creation every moment. Whenever He wants something to happen He says "Be" and it is. That is how everything happened.
When Allah told Abraham "Submit"... I do not thing he actually physically heard a voice in his ear and followed the voice... rather I believe he found an inspiration inside himself that he needed to submit to one and only Master of the universe. Just to remind you... Allah clarified in Qur'an that He never speaks with a human being directly except from behind a veil or through a messenger. Furthermore, the entire episode of how Abraham internally came to the decision of submitting to the Master of the universe ... from stars, to moon, to sun to finally Allah... has been elaborated later in Qur'an.
On 2278 - yes I have already acknowledged I missed this point. I thought brother Amin was raising this, but now it seems you were the one to first raise this in this topic. So thanks you- I surely learned from this discussion. It appears from the verse that the generic term "muslim" was chosen as a specific name for the followers of Abrahamic millat (religion). That's why I said to you in my last post, the word muslim can be used as a proper noun "the Muslim" as well as an arabic active participle / adjective muslim. This is like "nasara" generically means helper, but "Nasara" is also the label of a religious group. I am not claiming M. Terresa or M. Gandhi belonged to a religious group called "the Muslims". If they themselves did not accept that label, who am I to give them that label? But the generic attitude "muslim" is a common attribute of all sensible and faithful humans. Whoever submits to his God gifted sense of right and wrong qualifies to be a muslim. When Qur'an says Islam is the only deen acceptable to Allah - that is the kind of islam/muslim the verse is refering to. This is an attribute inherently built into human soul - not a learned or acquired faculty. Up to now that is my conclusion.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam MOF,
I understand your idea of firmness in belief to the word "submit",
the Semetic root slm points to wholeness, in good relationship.
I submit looks to be an other way of saying I am in Good relationship, a better relationship.We can consider the other option to not have better relationship with God, by bringing in partners, is
to have difference of opinion about God;s ability and so not having a good relationship.The important thing to me looks to be the idea every signs of him is the same ONE.
-
My Name is Ted,
They are spiritual guidelines and it is a sin to violate those, but they are not sterile laws, even if they may bring condemnation.
There is difference between judging a person with physical punishment in this world and the punishment that comes later.
And you can always try to persecute someone for jealousy or every time they lie. Or vain talk.
That is why God rather see that we forgive in this life. With mercy you actually bring more light than with a cold and sterile judgment.
Salaam
-
Amin,
I only agree with soundness/firmness. The submission thing is just a sectarian exaggeration to make it feel more Pagan. Although there is submission but that means full absorption into the image of Allah, and you are looking for a different word.
When you say you aslama then you mean you are reliable, firm towards. Indirectly perhaps it can be understood as submission, but the word does not mean that itself. I would say it implies on faithfulness.
Salaam
-
I only agree with soundness/firmness.
Peace, an example is docile/acquiescent cow also applicable to people that can be taught...
267 and when said Moses to folk his surely the god he directs you that thou slaughter ye of cow said they do you take us mock of said I seek refuge in the god lest I being from the ignorant 268 said they invite for us lord your shows for us what it is said surely he says surely she/it cow not old and not virgin/young middle aged between such so do ye of what are commanded 269 said they invite for us lord your shows for us what color hers/its said surely he says surely she/it cow yellowish bright color hers/its pleasing the onlookers 270 said they invite for us lord your shows for us what it is surely the cow similar/alike upon/to us and surely we if wills the god of those guided being 271 said surely he says surely she/it cow not trained to raise the earth and not to irrigate the harvest musallamatun not blemish in her/it said they henceforth thou came with the truth so slaughtered they her/it and not near they of doing
Ankole-Watusi cattle history
http//www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/breeds/cattle/ankolewatusi/index.htm
http//factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub362/item1506.html
http//factsanddetails.com/media/2/20120207-livestock%20702px-Fetekti3.jpg
-
I disagree with the translation choice there. It refers to that it is of fine specimen, sound... and without blemish.
The root means that something is sound.
Salaam
-
My Name is Ted,
They are spiritual guidelines and it is a sin to violate those, but they are not sterile laws, even if they may bring condemnation.
There is difference between judging a person with physical punishment in this world and the punishment that comes later.
And you can always try to persecute someone for jealousy or every time they lie. Or vain talk.
That is why God rather see that we forgive in this life. With mercy you actually bring more light than with a cold and sterile judgment.
Salaam
MoF,
I am rather baffled at your responses. First you say the commandments are a "rule of thumb", see definition below, which means they're principles which are not intended to be strictly accurate or reliable for every situation. Then you say it's a sin to violate them and they are not sterile laws. What on earth does "sterile laws"/"sterile judgement" mean?
A rule of thumb is a principle with broad application that is not intended to be strictly accurate or reliable for every situation. It is an easily learned and easily applied procedure for approximately calculating or recalling some value, or for making some determination.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb
Are you saying that if someone commits adultery or breaks some other law in the Quran we don't have to punish them according to how it is prescribed in the Quran?
-
Armanaziz,
I challange you to show that Mahatma Gandhi "worshiped many gods" or that Mother Teressa said "God has sons/daughters ".
Let's say for arguments sake that Mother Teressa and Mahtma Gandhi did actually worship many gods and associate them as partners to God. They did the same good works as before they died.
Would you class them as muslims?
There are many many Christians that do very good charitable work and are selfless, they put others needs before theirs. However they worship Jesus as the Son of God and/or claim he is part of the Trinity.
Would you class them as muslims?
-
Ted,
They will not be asked about something which does not exist except as conjecture, if you speak of a ritual.
Keeping salateh means what kind of perception of life you have.
Salaam
MoF,
So what do you make of the following verses?
4142 The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over- reach them When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;
56 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
-
Salaam Ted,
Exactly, the "commandments" is guidance with a broad application and not just some dull law.
For example, if the decree to Moses said to not kill anyone, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not even be angry with someone.
Or if the decree says do not commit adultery, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not look upon another man/woman with lust, even if the decree drew the line at adultery.
You see that the list is more than just a sterile law but rules of thumb. Obviously it is understandable if someone wishes to bring a person to justice over a murder, but that is up to the juridical system and if the family of the victim wishes to forgive the culprit (if the justice system allows that). The list itself is containing general guidelines, open to interpretation although obviously they say what they say and you cannot change or omit any one of them or you are one of those 'kafaroon' (fabricators) threatened with Hell in Quran.
The list is all the way helping with what is spiritually beneficial for a person. Jealousy also entered its way into the list and that does not adversely affect anyone but yourself. In fact jealousy can cause a person to break other parameters of it because it builds up negative energy in the victim (oneself/ego) and causes the person to think worldly. If one feels envy then they have missed the point in why they live.
Punishment is up to the community. In the "Western" world it is not illegal to commit adultery and you cannot thus prosecute a person guilty of this sin and emotionally hurting his or her spouse. According to the guidelines it is spiritually detrimental to commit adultery and it weighs heavily on the negative side and the person will get what they deserve whether you punish it or not. And a court can only kill the bodies while the Rabb can kill both body and soul. It does not really affect much in the end whether you punish or not in this world.
Murderers, especially serial-killers, are obviously another case and they have killed another person's body and it goes under "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life", but yet if there can be mercy this is much better than prosecution. You end the life of a person who could perhaps repent and reform with some love if you apply the death penalty.
Ah well. I gave you more information than you bargained form
Salaam
-
Ted,
4142 is quite easy to turn right. It speaks of hypocrites which appear to be well-mannered but just do it to show themselves representational while their inside is actually a mess.
56 speaks of behavior in general. I have a few months old prototype translation somewhere on the forum, but I could probably make a better if I once again sat down and analyzed it now.
The passages are a mess translation-wise as you can see which is true for a grand portion of Quran. I need more time to be able to translate quickly on demand.
, the root refers to what you follow and it reflects on your own ways. You can relate it to one's perception of life. One ought to be mindful of their ways . This is the criteria number one that God gives to Moses.
Obviously a person who pay attention to salat follows God. People with Pagan minds have rendered it a ritual when relating this innocent word with prayer. While prayer is not wrong, salateh is not that.
And prayers do not help the slightest unless one seeks to realize them. Otherwise it is just empty words to God. You do not read Al-Fatiha just as a ritual but it is meant that you should realize what you say.
Salaam
-
Salaam Ted,
Exactly, the "commandments" is guidance with a broad application and not just some dull law.
For example, if the decree to Moses said to not kill anyone, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not even be angry with someone.
Or if the decree says do not commit adultery, it is better and more spiritually beneficial to not look upon another man/woman with lust, even if the decree drew the line at adultery.
You see that the list is more than just a sterile law but rules of thumb. Obviously it is understandable if someone wishes to bring a person to justice over a murder, but that is up to the juridical system and if the family of the victim wishes to forgive the culprit (if the justice system allows that). The list itself is containing general guidelines, open to interpretation although obviously they say what they say and you cannot change or omit any one of them or you are one of those 'kafaroon' (fabricators) threatened with Hell in Quran.
The list is all the way helping with what is spiritually beneficial for a person. Jealousy also entered its way into the list and that does not adversely affect anyone but yourself. In fact jealousy can cause a person to break other parameters of it because it builds up negative energy in the victim (oneself/ego) and causes the person to think worldly. If one feels envy then they have missed the point in why they live.
Punishment is up to the community. In the "Western" world it is not illegal to commit adultery and you cannot thus prosecute a person guilty of this sin and emotionally hurting his or her spouse. According to the guidelines it is spiritually detrimental to commit adultery and it weighs heavily on the negative side and the person will get what they deserve whether you punish it or not. And a court can only kill the bodies while the Rabb can kill both body and soul. It does not really affect much in the end whether you punish or not in this world.
Murderers, especially serial-killers, are obviously another case and they have killed another person's body and it goes under "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life", but yet if there can be mercy this is much better than prosecution. You end the life of a person who could perhaps repent and reform with some love if you apply the death penalty.
Ah well. I gave you more information than you bargained form
Salaam
Sorry but you are not making much sense.
First you use "commandments" then "rule of thumb", then "decrees", then "list" and then "guidelines". Are all these things referring to the same thing? Seems like you may know what you are talking about but you're not making much sense to me. Maybe you have a lot more background info than I and are maybe assuming that I know it.
-
Ted,
"Commandments" - is what they are traditionally referred to as. I accept this definition although I find it inaccurate.
Rule of thumb - I said because they lead you forward and you should judge each situation you are in by them and they are open to interpretation as long as one does not change their meaning to something else.
Decree - I used as a word with milder tone than law as to say something has been issued with a tone of authority or prescription. It is hard to speak of this without making it into a sterile law.
List - It is a list, right? Traditionally ten.
Guidelines - is the best interpretation I have of the same phenomenon. The "Commandments" are best referred to as guidelines in English. It is as to refer to the list as clear guidance on how to lead one's life.
Salaam
-
56 speaks of behavior in general. I have a few months old prototype translation somewhere on the forum, but I could probably make a better if I once again sat down and analyzed it now.
So you have an old prototype translation which you need to sit down and analyze again in order to make it better? Doesn't this just go to show that you're not clear on your own works? That it's even difficult for you to understand your own work such that you need to go back to it.
When I read the Quran now I don't need to go back and think what it's saying. It's clear. It fits in with reality, the concepts of God, the duniya, the hereafter, human behaviour, etc.
If the Quran was such that 90% of the Muslim population has misunderstood it then God hasn't done a great job of making it easy to understand which defeats the purpose of it being a message for mankind.
On Judgement Day those who ignored/disobeyed the Quran would have a valid execuse that they were not guided since the Quran was difficult for them to understand.
However we are not going to have that execuse as God has made the Quran easy to understand. There is enough in it to check all of us. So I would humbly advise you to take the Quran for what it is. The vast majority of the Muslim population do understand the words but just twist it to fit in with their desires.
The fact there are so many different sects, schools of thought, opinions just goes to show why God has had to send guidance so many times.
-
Ted,
"Commandments" - is what they are traditionally referred to as. I accept this definition although I find it inaccurate.
Rule of thumb - I said because they lead you forward and you should judge each situation you are in by them and they are open to interpretation as long as one does not change their meaning to something else.
Decree - I used as a word with milder tone than law as to say something has been issued with a tone of authority or prescription. It is hard to speak of this without making it into a sterile law.
List - It is a list, right? Traditionally ten.
Guidelines - is the best interpretation I have of the same phenomenon. The "Commandments" are best referred to as guidelines in English. It is as to refer to the list as clear guidance on how to lead one's life.
Salaam
I would say that you could have just used "The Commandments given to Moses" in your response as it would have easily been understood as the commandments give to Moses. The fact that you find it inaccurate is a personal thing for you. Your understanding of it could either be discussed as a separate topic of you could have written a section on what your interpretation/understanding of them was. However you should still use "Commandments" later on when referring to them instead of other words as it becomes confusing as to what exactly your are referring to.
You said you prefer "Guidelines". So maybe "Guidelines " would have helped to discuss your understanding of it without you worrying what others are thinking of the term.
I would say "Guidelines" is totally inappropriate since the term does not highlight the importance of it or that there are consequences if not followed or that they are very strict. The Commandments given To Moses were very strict and were punishable. Guidelines are not punishable and not strict.
-
better word would be polytheists but even then if you and me claim to worship One God with different names like God, Allah, Siva or Bramman etc and fail to understand that both are indeed worshiping the same God, then we can also be called as a polytheist?
Siva and Bramman are not names of God. Ram, Krishna, Jesus, Zeus, Thor are not different names of the same God. Bhagwaan, The Almighty, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc do refer to the same God.
If we fail to understand that we are worshipping the same God then that means that either we don't accept the same attributes of God ie. eternal, almighty, omnipotent, all knowing, etc. or that we're just selfishly envious of the other or some other things.
We wouldn't be classed as polytheists since is we both worship God who has the same attributes but different names.
-
Armanaziz,
365 O! Fraternity of the book - why do you debate concerning Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not sent down but from after him? So, why do you not understand?
366 Here you are ? the ones who (even) debated about which you had knowledge; then why do you debate about which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you do not know.
367 Abraham did not happen to be a yahudi (i.e. repenter) or a nasara (i.e. helper), but rather, he happened to be a precise muslim (i.e. submissive) ? and he did not happen to be among the assigners of partners (to Allah).
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Don?t you see that the above verse implies following a specific book / external communication is not necessary for being a muslim like Abraham? If your reply is - Abraham followed his own book which was an earlier version of Torah and the Gospel and Qur?an ? than doesn?t that make the above Quranic claim nonsensical? Pay attention brother ? the quoted verses (365-67) clearly imply that following a specific book or any book is NOT A NECESSARY condition for being a muslim.
In the above I believe you are saying no book was revealed to Abraham. What do you then make of the verse below?
384 Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
The verse seems to say that something was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes.
-
Ted,
Amen I tell you. I will continue and show you that salateh does not imply on some ritualistic prayer.
Of course I have to sit down and decipher passages again because my understanding grows and I am able to expose more falsehood. And you shall see I will be able to explain too.
Salat is a man's perception of life, their ways.
Quran and Arabic is surprisingly easy to learn due to certain factors, but that does not help if someone plays with interpretation, is ignorant and desires to fabricate a meaning. You do not know what Quran has been through it seems. People who interpreted it have not been honest at all. They appear to have only guessed when they could not understand the grammar and structure. 56 is particularly a joke translation-wise.
And Quran teaches a faith similar to Christianity without the misconception about Jesus, obviously, and not of sectarian Rabbinical Judaism. Rituals belong to the Pagan heritage with materialistic gods that needs to be pleased.
Salaam