Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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May I remind you that Quran, even in its traditional biased interpretation, says that it is much better to forgive the offense no matter what the crime if you can. That is more righteous and shows that you can display mercy which is part of our test of character. It is never good to be forced to punish someone, even if it may be a solution.
Should the followers of the prophet Mohammed fought and killed others when God commanded them to? Or maybe you think that's another wishful interpretation? Maybe the followers should have just suffered or debated with the pagans until they managed to convince them.
What about when the Children of Israel refused to fight when God commanded them to fight the Canaanites? Were they right to refuse? Should God and Moses have gone and fought on their behalf?
Maybe God wasn't right to cause the floods and drown the people of Noah killing many, many women and children. Or maybe God should have left Pharaoh just be instead of drowning him and his people? Or left Qarun alone with the his riches and just let him enjoy it. Is exulting in wealth a crime punishable by death?
Seems to me some people on this forum are forgetting that we need to fear God first and the love him.
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Ted,
Lot of the warfare allegedly in Quran are wishful interpretations, yes.
If God truly gives the command to go in and kill people somewhere then it is unquestionable, but usually that is not the case.
But my point in no matter if your life is ended now or in 1000 years you cannot avoid your destiny. Being instantly killed through punishment is not really any big deal but rather what comes next. If you live 30 years or 80 years does not really matter.
It was God who ended the lives of Noah's people and not Noah. And that was due to their noteworthy unrighteousness.
It was God who ended the lives of Pharaoh and company and not Moses' people. God could have made it for the Children of Israel to rebel and start a civil war instead but that is simply not the essence of this faith you are supposed to follow.
God is only ending a society when it indulges in oppressive, violent and very sinful behavior. And that is because they would otherwise disturb the test. Otherwise God does not do any particular interference in this world except for those who have joined the realm of Allah.
Salaam
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Salaam Arman,
That does not have any Quranic support however even if you find it just to cut off a man's hand. It is barbaric.
However, if a man wounds a person, the law gives right to equal punishment and if the wound was a lost hand the "law" makes it possible to cut off the hand of the culprit, although some kind of mercy is always better.
On the other hand, in the case of theft then the punishment should be taking from the resources of that man to an equal value of what was taken or some sort of justification in jail time if this is in the law. This goes entirely after the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".
These kinds decapacitation punishments are considered inhumane in the developed world and it is thus not able to use as a punishment under current laws. And I never hope we go back to such system either.
And polygamy was never anything intended by God but man and woman separate from their parents and become as one body. That was the original design. If man has allowed it then that is from men and God knows better what is better for its own design and that is one and one.
The passages of Quran are not generic or to be interpreted according to our time because they are so general that they can be followed "as is" at any time in history. It is about principle.
Quran mentions not polygamy nor any cutting of hands but that is people who have forced this interpretation out of an innocent text.
Salaam
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Lot of the warfare allegedly in Quran are wishful interpretations, yes.
MoF,
Did God not order the Children of Israel to fight the Canaanites and inherit their land? Does the Bible contain wishful interpretation as well now?
Was there no battle of Badr?
Did God not say fight those who fight you?
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Let?s see ?
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Creation of heavens and earth in six days (754) used to be interpreted as six solar days ? but now that our knowledge has advanced, we know it is better interpreted as six epochs.
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Sun moving in orbit (1433) used to be understood as an orbit around the earth. But now-a-days ?generally? understood as sun moving in its orbit in milky way galaxy.
Now let?s move to commandments -
Cutting-off ?hands? of thieves (53 used to be understood purely literally. But a more allegorical interpretation is gaining increasing acceptance.
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To marry in twos, threes and fours (43) used to be considered as a permission to marry multiple wives concurrently. But, that interpretation is increasingly losing ground.
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?What your right hand possess? (43) used to be understood as referring to slaves. But it is now almost universally accepted that Islam does not accept slavery.
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Husbands were thought to have ?license? to beat-up their wives (434). But the verse has seen changing interpretation throughout time from scholars of both conservative and reformist school.
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This is six solar days. If it wasn't God would have clarified like He does in other verses. Our knowledge is very very limited when it comes to historical events. Please don't be fooled by evolution/geological/science evidence when it comes to dating the earth. The evidence that you read/listen to is not as true as they make it out to be. What they teach is not science bust their opinions.
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The geocentric model is just as valid as the heliocentric one. In some cases the geocentric model is still used. The geocentric model makes most sense. Look at the clouds, they are evidence that the earth does not rotate. If the earth did rotate you would not see the clouds being stationary. You can even try this yourself - create some smoke then try to make it spin round. You can't. We have jet streams, they don't change much. We have earthquakes, they don't impact the rotation of the earth. Gravity is not as simple as you think. etc, etc.
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Just because it is gaining increasing acceptance does not make it correct. Just as in the ancient times people are forgetting Gods word. They fear other people more than they fear God. They desire comfort and ease and the temporary things of this life. Whereas God has purchased the life and property of the muslims hence they are expected to suffer and strive in order to be given the good things in the hereafter that will last. In the hereafter many will wish they had suffered and strived even more when they see what God has prepared for them, they may even feel guilty that they are being given so much and being treated so well for just a few moments of hard work. God knows the cutting of hands is barbaric, hell is far far worse.
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Same as point 3 above - Just because it is gaining increasing acceptance does not make it correct. Just as in the ancient times people are forgetting Gods word. I don't approve of multiple wives however as a muslim I accept it. I do think that some women actually don;t mind being one of many wives. However the person keeping more than one wife has to do it with the right intention. In the end God knows us best and justice will be done.
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Islam and Judaism both have to accept slavery whether they like it or not. By saying Islam does not accept slavery is wrong. God does not approve of slavery hence he does tell us that we should try to free slaves. However God does allow it.
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Beating is allowed but I don't believe it's allowed in a manner that will cause bruising and severe pain. Again Muslims are changing things due to pressure from non believers. Need to fear God more than other people.
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Ted,
The Bible is mixed up with hadith which has no basis of truth. And there is no guarantee that the original Hebrew has not met the same corruption in interpretation as Quran.
You have the right to defend yourself against aggressors, but you may not attack a country without any valid reason. And anything you can do without violence is seven times better than to initiate an armed conflict.
Quran's traditional interpretation implies fight/kill based on the Arabic word , but I have met grave inconsistency if you are to interpret that as kill. From a literal standpoint it appears to mean "to talk some sense to/convince". To convince people about the faith of God is also your mission rather than military conquest.
Chapter 9 and passages 1-12 speak about the convincing of sectarian people rather than some armed conflicts. The traditional interpretation is very bloodthirsty.
Salaam
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Beating wives is not allowed at all. That has never been a valid interpretation of 434 and is a wrong interpretation of it. Someone has forced the passage to say something like it and the interpretation has not changed due to the lapse of time.
Salaam
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Beating wives is not allowed at all. That has never been a valid interpretation of 434 and is a wrong interpretation of it. Someone has forced the passage to say something like it and the interpretation has not changed due to the lapse of time.
MoF,
I think your interpretation of the Quran is strange and I don't agree with it. I don't see any point in debating it with you since you use a different dictionary that the vast majority of people use. I shall respectfully decline to discuss/comment on your responses. Peace and best wishes to you.
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Salam.
I would humbly express my disagreement with the above remark.
Cutting off hand as an "exemplary punishment" could be okay, if the original act of theft/robbery*, had the comparable level of barbarity involved in it. This was specially true for societies which lacked organized prison systems.
Marrying multiple women and even not marrying at all (i.e. sex without marriage) was acceptable at certain stage of development of human society. Human beings did not bring the institution of marriage "from heaven". The institution of marriage was developed in human societies through gradual evolution. And gradual was the move from socially acceptable polygamy to socially mandated monogamy (observed in virtually every society).
We cannot take the reality of our time and based on that judge our forefathers - that they were worng to take multiple wives or have slaves. Nor can we take their reality to judge what is acceptable for us. The verses of Qur'an are generic. We need to interpret and understand them based on the need of our time and our society. Hunt for a "one-size-fits-all" interpretation will only lead us to debate and disagreement.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
*P.S. The arabic term Saariq covers both theft and robbery
Armanaziz I feel that you are relunctant to do things which are difficult for people to do. I suggest you think why so few people believed the prophet Mohammed. They were ordered to fight but they were relunctant, they were ordered to leave their loved ones, they asked to give up the good things of this world, they were asked to sacrifice their lives. My guess is that many people declined. They would rather live peacefully with their families and die naturally. Struggle and sacrifice for God was not strong enough in their hearts.
Your comments remind me of this. They also remind me of what I do in my own life. I'm the same as those who turned away from the message and want an easy life. I'd like to think that doing a bit of charity and good deeds will be enough as long as I don't do any major sins.
I feel I am no better than the people who turned away from the message. So, God willing, I will try to put myself on the hard path and die struggling and striving on the path of God rather than die being satisfied with the all the wealth I have accumulated and the family I have.
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MoF,
I think your interpretation of the Quran is strange and I don't agree with it. I don't see any point in debating it with you since you use a different dictionary that the vast majority of people use. I shall respectfully decline to discuss/comment on your responses. Peace and best wishes to you.
ever tried beating anyone with a tooth brush? it's embarrassing... imagine trying to beat your wife with a toothbrush, she'll look at you and smirk then walk off... the ayaat in question forces one to reflect on things like beating a wife and liken it to something embarrassing for the male to engage in.
The Quran is a book of subtleties Ted... you have to seriously reflect on the ayaat (lit. 'signs' in order to gain some understanding.
Scimi
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Salaam to you too, Ted. I hope your life in your man-made religion will feel fine and you still will have a good ending.
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Exactly!
lol I don't think it is stupid. If one has God as an enemy, one can have no greater enemy than God. Likewise, all the bad that happens to you is from God too, and what an enemy does is cause you to suffer, and when all suffering is ultimately from God and also God can stop it but doesn't, then how can it be said God is not the greatest enemy, the unbeatable foe?
It isn't stupid, it is well thought out.
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What is your understanding of the following
Also a witness to a murder of a boy
1874
So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing. (But Musa didn't hand him over to the authorities if there were any)Do you think ALLAH will give such command?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606834.0
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Moses did never slay a man when he was driven away on flight, but the people conspired against him, i.e. he was defeated in argumentation when arguing about his prophethood. This is why he begs GOD for help when he meets him/her/it. People simply denied him.
The only source besides Quran (if you interpret it properly) which gives the right account is the ancient historian Josepheus. You may like to compare his account of the story.
Instead of seeing a fire as in the mainstream story, Moses perceives a light (alternatively energy) coming from the mountain.
Mankind is so deluded about the true account.
Be well
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Do you think ALLAH will give such command?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606834.0
I believe Allah incites much greater evils than that even. That Allah is the inventor of every sort of thing that exists and is possible and has been conducted, that it being conducted is only through Allah's power, that the occurrence of anything is by the will, power, command, decree, and permission of Allah and tolerated by Allah, and that there would be no child rape, massacres, torture, or anything else had Allah not invented those possibilities and been the power behind those events and actions.
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Wherever you may be, death will overtake you - even though you be in towers raised high. "Yet, when a good thing happens to them, some say, "This is from God," whereas when evil befalls them, they say, "This is from thee !? Say "All is from God." What, then, is amiss with these people that they are in no wise near to grasping the truth of what they are told?5722
No evil befalls on the earth nor in your own souls, but it is in a book before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to Allah2531
For so it is that against every prophet We have set up enemies from among those who are lost in sin yet none can guide and give succour as thy Sustainer does!144
We sent not any Messenger but with the tongue of his folk in order that he make it manifest for them. Then, God causes to go astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is The Almighty, The Wise.
So Allah is the cause of all disease, all nightmares, all terror, all hurt, all pain, all suffering, the Lord of Evil, King and Master of Hell, creator of Rape, Murder, Blood Spilled, Agony, Torment, Tattoos, Self Cutting, Suicide, Depression, Madness, and whatever else you can think of that is bad seeming.
Any child murder that occurs is by the command and will of Allah
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And He it is who has brought you into being out of one living entity, and a time-limit and a resting-place clearly, indeed, have We spelled out these messages unto people who can grasp the truth!Every event of our life is brought into existence by Allah who manifests all the information we receive which makes up whatever we "know" or "experience" in a moment.