How to prostrate....On CHIN or on FOREHEAD?
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Root
Affectionate surrender of one's will and freedom/liberty-Forehead on the ground.
Unquote
It may be seen that the original, fundamental, basic meanings are the feel of lowliness, humility, submissiveness by one for someone else, which is manifested by lowering of one's head in the state chin moving towards chest along with eyes going downwards, or bending oneself down. The basic perception unfolds that this is a relational word-it happens or takes existence only when there are two entities.
Moreover, evidently it is not an abstract or theoretical proposition but a physical act; something expressed, conveyed, and submitted through body language instead of verbal expression. This act signifies and demonstratively portrays-parallels one's thought of surrender and submission reflecting acceptance of his relative humble state and position as against the exalted, honoured, elevated stature, and glory of other. This gives us its initial perception and meanings as obeisance, homage, respectful, saluting gesture and behaviour towards/for someone else.The relational aspect, physical nature and the reflection of the relativity in stature, position and elevation of the subject and the one for whom this act is done is explained at first instance of use of this Root in the Qur'aan
- Basic initial meanings Feel of reverence and its expression through physical gesture-body languag
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Salaam,
GOD has no need for worship of any kind, but you can always honor GOD like you would honor your father. You want to make your father proud and pleased with you, right? So you should think about GOD too, and even more so.
The same I doubt your father would require you to fall down prostrate to him, but if you do not embarrass him and tread in his image (taking he is righteous) then that is honoring him. If you end up a criminal or with evil conduct your father may dislike you but still love you as a father but he will be sad inside. You have broken his heart. GOD still provides for evildoers and so will a good father do as well.
Think of that and the rituals do not make as much sense. The Rabb is not some distant king but it more like your close good father. Only The Rabb sees where a human father does not. So whenever you misbehave and make a slip then your Father will be there and see his "son" do it. What a perfect Father.
And the "son's" realization The Rabb is his Father makes more a greater awareness. And the Father should be in you and you in the Father, so the Father admonishes you from within yourself, from your ascended consciousness. It is like your Father that you always have with you.
It was such parables as this above that Jesus presented and which were misunderstood. The Allah phenomenon works like this, i.e. to have the spirit/soundness (م of The Rabb/Father in you.
Salaam
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/096.%20Al%20Alq/96.19a.gif
No, the better way is that you should not listen and accept the forbidding word of him who forbids a man performing Ass-sa'laat. And you prostrate and affectionately cause yourself to get nearer to your Sustainer Lord. {Please prostrate before Allah, the Exalted, if you wish to be nearer to Him the Exalted]
What type of text is about sjd? Obviously, directive. Directive texts, of which legal texts form a part, consist of discourse where a speaker speaks his/her will that a specific act be done by another person. Directive texts are concerned with concrete future activity. Central to these texts are imperatives.
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"Be informed that I am placing-declaring Adam in the Earth as self-governor enjoying freedom-discretion-free will of self rule-decision-governance".
Where is the seat of self governing? Where is the seat of executive functions of this self governing sovereign?
It lies in the prefrontal area of brain located behind the forehead. http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.034/150.%20Isjidoo%20Seen%20Jeem%20Daal/5.gif The act of laying the forehead on the ground for Allah the Exalted explicitly expresses the willful and affectionate surrender of one's will and self governing liberty at the mercy of the Will of the Sustainer Lord. This non verbal communication to Allah the Exalted much loudly expresses that henceforth one will not follow his own will, but will regulate and administer his life and actions according to the dictates conveyed through the elevated and honoured Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam in the Book Grand Qur'aan.
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@Man Of Faith
Salam.
I think I got your point.I'm again saying that,what is in our heart is more important than physical ritual.But I don't have enough proof from Quran so that I can deny the existence of physical ritual. -
Please let me inform you that this thread is not about "Is sujud or prostration physical or not?
Assume that prostration is physical.Now my point is should we prostrate on our chin or on forehead? And I think both(chin & forehead) are not the same.
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peace nz,
I assume you are referring to 17107-109. These verses have been discussed in some detail on past threads.
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
17107-109 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD." And they say "Glory to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord has been fulfilled. And they fall to their chins weeping*, and it increases** them in humility/lowliness/submissiveness.
*also see 583.
**implies a person already humble/lowly/submissive is affected in this way.Most translators do not take it as a physical falling to the chin in prostration, rather, most simply ignore the Arabic and translate it as "fall UPON their FACES". Some do mention a figurative explanation however. If it was "fall upon (e.g. AAala = ى their chins" then it would have been more likely to mean a literal/physical expression, but "fall to the chins" suggests the possibility of a metaphorical/idiomatic interpretation. And of course "adhqan" does not mean "faces", it means "chins".
Lane's Lexicon clearly points out its idiomatic usage
"kharoo li'idhqaanihim, inf. n. khuroor (A) 3asafat reehu fakharrat al ashjaaru lil'idhqaan . (A in art. Kharra) and habbat alree7u fakabbat alshajara 3alaa adhqaanihaa and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."
Note that Lane provides the reader with the interpretation/meaning of the idiom, rather than its literal translation. All of the listed examples use "the chin" even though trees and stones obviously do not have "chins". Lane also states parts of a man that are the places of SJD (e.g. forehead/nose/hands/knees/feet) but does not include "chin" implying to take this verse literally; i.e. to prostrate to the chin, was not its meaning.Professor Mustansir Mir in "Verbal Idioms of The Quran", cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom implying extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in The Quran means to humble oneself before God, and cites Classical Arabic poem by Imru al-Qays about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they "fell to the chin". It is unlikely a tree would actually fall down due to a heavy downpour of rain, but it is possible to take it as a physicall fall.
Grammatically, the accusative word "sujjudan" in "yakhorruun lil'adhqaan sujjudan" names the action or manner of the verb preceding. In other words, it describes how "they fell to their chins". So if "they fell to their chins" is an idiom then "sujjadan" is also idiomatic and is not body-physical.
Similarly, see 3824 when David "fell rk3", where rk3 is also in the accusative case, and since it is impossible to physically 'fall bowing' many translators render it as 'fall prostrate/kneeling'. rk3 is more akin to humbling or inclining (in terms of disposition/mindset).
If we couple this with there being no evidence of Traditional Muslims falling to the chin in prostration, and certainly not everytime they heard AQ being recited, it strongly points to it being idiomatic. Also, since falling is mentioned twice, the latter without SJD, it would be even more unusual to do.
The word "fall" (kh-r-r) in AQ is not always literal
And those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not FALL on them deaf and blind.
i.e. one should fall upon them listening and seeing, i.e. give them the utmost/swift attention/thought/care, see 7204.From Classical Arabic dictionaries kh-r-r can mean to "fall absolutely", thus seems it can figuratively mean to the utmost, swiftly/fully/intensely etc. This expression can be likened to its use in English, e.g. "fall in love".
With the above evidence, and reasoning that "fall TO" something implies a degree/extent, we can infer that "fall" by itself likely implies swiftness when used figuratively.
Now we will discuss the cases where "fall" is used before SJD without "to the chin", by examining an enlightening comparison
124 When Joseph said to his father "My father, I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them SaJiD to/for me."
12100 He raised his parents on the throne, and they fell to/for him SuJaD, and he said, "My father, this is the interpretation of my dream/vision of before...
AND
8420-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
1958 ...when were recited to them the signs of the Almighty, they fell SuJaD and weeping
3215 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD*, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
*Tafsir ibn Abbas explains this expression as "they come in all humility", Ibn Kathir says it means "they listen to them and obey them in word and deed." Even though both do not interpret 1958 the same way.Before discussing the consequences, 124 and 12100 need clarified, because in some translations (e.g. M.Asad) they say/imply Joseph and his parents fell SJD to Him (as in God), but this is not correct according to 124 because in his dream Joseph saw SJD to/for him, not God. Some take it to mean Joseph's parents fell SJD to/for Joseph, but this is also not correct, because the Arabic plural is used for kh-r-r, meaning 3 or more, and since in 1293 it clearly implies those who returned to be in the company of Joseph were his family (e.g. brothers) and parents, likely 11 family members and the sun and moon in his dream being symbolic for his parents, we can see why the plural is used. Interestingly, M.Asad in his notes on 12100 says earlier "scholars" said it cannot be prostrate to Joseph, as it is inconceivable that Joseph would have allowed this. See 2725 for example. This is an important point to reflect upon.
When fall/khrr is used in the context of revelation, it is obviously figurative. Since Joseph was one of the guided ones, in authority and in a position to issue commands to be followed, similar to the examples for God and His commands, "fall SJD" can mean the exact same thing in 12100, 1958 and 3215. That is why the earlier "scholars" cited by M.Asad had difficulty reconciling a physical prostration to Joseph, as this is inconceivable conceptually for them, so some opted for "fall SJD" to Him (as in God). Since we know this is blatantly incorrect according to 124, we are left with only one option "they fell sjd to/for Joseph". Of course, earlier "scholars" may not have considered the non-prostration option or tried to explain their understanding away*, due to their bias/upbringing that taught them SJD means physical prostration. It should also be noted that they were raised on the throne and they fell SJD. If this is a bow or prostration this would be a strange and impractical way to go about it. Being raised on the throne is a significant gesture, because only the owner of such a throne could allow this, and it is after this happening, Joseph's parents and family fall SJD to him.
*see altafsir.com in which Jalalayn says "fell SJD" means a bow and not a prostration. Conveniently neglecting the word "fall" and that elswhere SJD means prostration in his work.Essentially, the traditional understanding is treating a figurative/idiomatic expression as literal sometimes (i.e. when it suits them) and non-literal other times (i.e. when it suits them), with no distinguishing criteria other than it does not fit with their view. This haphazrd manner is not the word/logical precision par excellence that is AQ.
Now onto the consequences of this comparison IF one takes 124 and 12100 together to imply SJD means "prostration" (or even a physical bow), they MUST also take, using the same logic, the SJD in 8421 and 1958/3215 (i.e. the exact same comparison) to also mean "prostration/bow". Or if you take a physical prostration in either of 8421, 1958 or 3215 then you should do the same for all, unless there is a solid reason not to, otherwise it will be logically inconsistant and/or a contradiction in one's views. Thus, the implication would be, whenever one hears AQ, they must physically prostrate! Of course, no Traditional Muslim as far as I'm aware does this, or ever has, as it would be impractical and sometimes dangerous. It would seem that this finding is significant, and not only does it present a problem for SJD=prostration, but also for any body-physical representation of this term, e.g. salute. Of course there is a way around this problem simply pick and choose the meaning to suit your views or just ignore what AQ says. It would seem this is commonly done.
It should be noted that other key words are not exclusively for God, as is commonly thought, e.g. come as muslim (i.e. ones who surrender/make peace) TO Solomon .In my view, if one wished to physically prostrate, it's unlikely to be of significance whether one did so upon one's chin or forehead.
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there is a quraanic verse talking about a sign that shows on the faces of believers as a result of sujood..does that signify anything?....
This is commonly said to support the physical prostration on the forehead BUT the evidence is actually quite weak. The verse is 4829 and it is discussed in detail in the link I provided.
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there is a quraanic verse talking about a sign that shows on the faces of believers as a result of sujood..does that signify anything?....
I also tried sujood with the chin touching the floor..it was painful...http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/048.%20Al%20Fatha/48.29c.gif
Face and forehead are two different body parts.It should be noted that there is no mention of marks or scar on the forehead. "Face" does not mean "Forehead-Forelock". Further, it must be noted that the identification mark is not stated as UPON the faces but what is stated is that it is within the faces. It is a known fact that the face has within it around 90 muscles, about 30 of these purely for expressing and reflecting emotion and inner convictions. These facial marking send many non-verbal signals. The Angels will recognize the Criminals without questioning about their slander and sin. The facial expressions on the Day of Judgment are elaborately narrated in other places.
Root
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Thank you brother. Well said.
However, I think learning start by asking PLearn the message of the Quran first. Then youll understand that "salat" and "sujud" are not mindless rituals, but natural and logical concepts.
To my understanding, "salat" is turning towards God's law and guidance by reading and upholding the Quran. "Sujud" is done, meaning acknowledging and obeying the signs/messages of God.
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Progressive1993,
You walk alright bro. That is exactly what qum salat refers to.
You are also right about sujud.
I have worked hard to elaborate on that point to thoroughly show that this is exactly what salateh means. People just need to reflect upon the alleged praying birds. Are they praying in midair or are they guiding each other and FOLLOW THE OTHER CLOSELY (see saad-lam-waw definition in Lane's Lexicon).
The word salateh means "guidance" as object more or less. It literally refers to perception (of path-taking or being).
It would collide with the meaning of huda , if it had the right meaning traditionally, but it does not. Huda means grace/blessing/gift (gift can be verified by Lane's).
Salaam
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Following is my very personal understanding of the word kharra which means fell down. This trilateral roots kha-ra-ra ( ر occurs 12 times in the whole Quran in one derived form and that is verb kharra. These 12 occurrences are as follows
(Yusuf Ali)
007143 When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.
012100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.
016026 Those before them did also plot (against Allah's Way) but Allah took their structures from their foundations, and the roof fell down on them from above; and the Wrath seized them from directions they did not perceive.
017107 Say "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,
017109 They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.
019058 Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
019090 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
022031 Being true in faith to Allah, and never assigning partners to Him if anyone assigns partners to Allah, is as if he had fallen from heaven and been snatched up by birds, or the wind had swooped (like a bird on its prey) and thrown him into a far-distant place.
025073 Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind;
032015 Only those believe in Our Signs, who, when they are recited to them, fall down in prostration, and celebrate the praises of their Lord, nor are they (ever) puffed up with pride.
034014 Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).
038024 (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
Let?s assume ?Felling down to chin? has a 50-50 chance to be a physical act or an idiomatic phrase. All occurrences stated above indicate the falling down as a physical act without verse 2573.
Only verse 2573 is resemble the phrase fall in love, darkness fall upon them etc.Saheeh International
- And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall upon them deaf and blind.
In the rest of the occurrences fell down on /to ground fits the context.
Then why it would be exceptional where it is associated with the word prostration?From my own view of understanding I believe that sujud or prostration doesn?t mean to place your forehead or chin on the ground. In verse 17107 it first tell us to fall on our chin and then prostrating. If prostrating means fall on ground then what the use of fall on chin?
What if I say sujud means prostrate,being humble, submissive or to salute, honour, magnify by lower/or bend oneself down towards the ground?All I?m saying that the core part of a prostration is humble, submissive, adore, make obeisance, to honour/salute/magnify, to pay respect etc. But it should be supported by body languages.
Allah knows best.
Let Allah develop our mind enough to reach the most rational understanding of His noble book. -
Salaam,
can also mean a change from something to another, i.e. a transition. This is why which is traditionally The Hereafter uses this root. literally means The Transition.
You can always try that on instances where you translate "fall down". For example, change into tears etc rather than fall into. Also sujud is not physical so it can be that they turned into respect or reverence rather than physically prostrating. And the mountains were turned into rubble etc. I doubt sujud has the connotation as far as actual prostration. It needs more advanced vocabulary.
Salaam
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Progressive1993,
You walk alright bro. That is exactly what qum salat refers to.
You are also right about sujud.
I have worked hard to elaborate on that point to thoroughly show that this is exactly what salateh means. People just need to reflect upon the alleged praying birds. Are they praying in midair or are they guiding each other and FOLLOW THE OTHER CLOSELY (see saad-lam-waw definition in Lane's Lexicon).
The word salateh means "guidance" as object more or less. It literally refers to perception (of path-taking or being).
It would collide with the meaning of huda , if it had the right meaning traditionally, but it does not. Huda means grace/blessing/gift (gift can be verified by Lane's).
Salaam
Please pardon my intrusion or interruption here, but, would you be so kind to indicate me where I could find your final explanation of salat and sojood, without too elaborate texts and lengthily explanations?
Thank you @Man of Faith -
The recent posting in The Nearness and Guidance thread has one about salateh.
Sujud is not particularly hard to figure out, it means to show respect/submissiveness, without direct physical connotation. Bowing, prostration or shaking hand is a voluntary expression, and need further vocabulary to write about.
Salaam
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Thank you
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The recent posting in The Nearness and Guidance thread has one about salateh.
Sujud is not particularly hard to figure out, it means to show respect/submissiveness, without direct physical connotation. Bowing, prostration or shaking hand is a voluntary expression, and need further vocabulary to write about.
Salaam
Verb Sajada
What type of verb is this? Action or stative; transitive or intransitive; relational or non relational
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.30g.gif
"Be informed that I am placing-declaring Adam in the Earth as self-governor enjoying freedom-discretion-free will of self rule-decision-governance".
Where is the seat of self governing? Where is the seat of executive functions of this self governing sovereign?
It lies in the prefrontal area of brain located behind the forehead. http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.034/150.%20Isjidoo%20Seen%20Jeem%20Daal/5.gif The act of laying the forehead on the ground for Allah the Exalted explicitly expresses the willful and affectionate surrender of one's will and self governing liberty at the mercy of the Will of the Sustainer Lord. This non verbal communication to Allah the Exalted much loudly expresses that henceforth one will not follow his own will, but will regulate and administer his life and actions according to the dictates conveyed through the elevated and honoured Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam in the Book Grand Qur'aan.
I think there are parts of your statement above which beneficial for me to strengthen my understanding of prostration, insha'Allah.
Btw, I hope you could make another posts on this forum again, big brother Mazhar.
I like your firm attitude* on this forum! yay
(*it seems that you have strict/firm attitude, I'm sorry if I'm wrong)
Salaam.
