9:7 A clue why Masjidi Haram may be not a building
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Salam Brother Ayman
Thanks for your post and your very thought provoking ideas and opinions.
Ayman said
So what the verse is saying is that The God takes the selves that DID NOT DIE IN SLEEP. On the other hand, according to you, the verse is saying is that The God takes the selves that did not die in THE PLACE OF THEIR SLEEP. So, according to you, if I am awake just sitting and reading in bed (the place where I sleep), The God takes my self. That interpretation defies common sense.
Brother Ayman, no one knows how and where they will die. When a person is sick and is dying, they die in their DEATH BEDS (The place of sleep). Some are awake, some are asleep, some are in coma, some are in between, some are in pain, some are sedated. They die in their death bed. Some people do not die in their death bed. That is what the Ayah is saying.
For example, see MNAS in 383 where it means "escape". If one reads the whole sentence in 383, no matter how biased one is, one cannot force the meaning of "place of escape" on the word.
"7in" means "at the time of" and "7in MNAS" means "at the time of escape". Trying to make it into a physical place results in the illogical "at the time of the place of escape", so brother, please save your effort and don't even try.
Place of escape is correct, which is also a refuge.
383 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
The translator here used being saved. You can easily change it to Refuge/place of escape and the meaning is the same.
The same thing can be said about other words. Such as MSGhB(t) in 9014, which has the same exact structure as MSJD except in the feminine.
Incorrect MASGHABAT there is a Fatha whereas the MASJID has the Kasra.
Please explain to us how a physical building can be founded on "consciousness". I always thought that physical buildings are founded on walls, concrete, and other physical materials. The fact is that in reality a non-physical foundation can only be the foundation of a non-physical concept.
I did address the issue in my note to Brother As Shura. I also addressed my definition of what a MASJID is. Please refer to that note.
MQAM cannot mean a physical place where one stands in verses such as 1973, 1779, etc. If you disagree then please provide a logical translation of those verses substituting "a physical place where you stand" instead of "MQAM".
You are right. MAQAM is allegorical in those situation. In a way that is very related to the Place where you stand.
Therefore, you need to take your misreading of 3942 as evidence of bias and turn it into a positive opportunity for self-improvement.
Thanks for the reminder. I am trying to work on it. You do not talk about biases that you might have. If you don't have any, then ALF MABROOK.
How would we do the impossible and stop at EVERY such place to take beautiful things according to 731? How would we do the impossible and face a certain physical building WHEREVER we are according to your understanding of 2144? Would The God CONSISTENTLY ask us to do such physical impossibilities or is it your understanding that is still biased based on what you were taught by sectarians?
The people that do it do not think that it is impossible.
I join you in that prayer.
Ameen and Salam
Hussein
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Peace brother Hussein,
Brother Ayman, no one knows how and where they will die. When a person is sick and is dying, they die in their DEATH BEDS (The place of sleep). Some are awake, some are asleep, some are in coma, some are in between, some are in pain, some are sedated. They die in their death bed. Some people do not die in their death bed. That is what the Ayah is saying.
Brother, this is not what the sign is saying. The meaning that you propose is completely made up by you. Here are various translations
039.042
YUSUFALI It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
PICKTHAL Allah receiveth (men's) souls at the time of their death, and that (soul) which dieth not (yet) in its sleep. He keepeth that (soul) for which He hath ordained death and dismisseth the rest till an appointed term. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought.
SHAKIR Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
KHALIFA GOD puts the souls to death when the end of their life comes, and also at the time of sleep. Thus, He takes some back during their sleep, while others are allowed to continue living until the end of their predetermined interim. This should provide lessons for people who reflect.The sleep part has NOTHING to do with death. That is why the sign says "lam tamut". What does "lam tamut" mean? It means DID NOT DIE. That is how the translators translated it. Also, notice that ALL translators translated "manam" as "sleep" and not as "place of sleep". Again, "place of sleep" leads to nonsense because you are implying that if I am wide awake in my bed typing this on my laptop, The God takes my soul because I am in "the place of sleep".
For example, see MNAS in 383 where it means "escape". If one reads the whole sentence in 383, no matter how biased one is, one cannot force the meaning of "place of escape" on the word.
"7in" means "at the time of" and "7in MNAS" means "at the time of escape". Trying to make it into a physical place results in the illogical "at the time of the place of escape", so brother, please save your effort and don't even try.
Place of escape is correct, which is also a refuge.
383 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
The translator here used being saved. You can easily change it to Refuge/place of escape and the meaning is the same.
No you can't change it because it will become nonsense. Let's try
383 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for place of escape!
"Time for place of escape" is illogical nonsense and such expressions are not used in Arabic (or English for that matter). "Time of escape" is logical.
The same thing can be said about other words. Such as MSGhB(t) in 9014, which has the same exact structure as MSJD except in the feminine.
Incorrect MASGHABAT there is a Fatha whereas the MASJID has the Kasra.
The feminine takes a Fat-ha but it has the same meaning as MASJD. You have to agree, unless you finally no longer hold the view that words such as "MaDRaSa(t)"/school (where there is a Fat-ha) denote primarily a physical place and instead denote an institution of learning like MSJD denotes an institution of obedience.
My vision of Masjid is this
1-Any place where people perform Sujood. This can be your prayer rug, a piece of land and a mosque.So now according to your interpretation, we have to do the impossible and stop at every rug that anyone ever put their forehead on and take beautiful things, otherwise we are disobeying 731.
2-When people perform Sujood in groups, then it becomes not only a place of Sujood, but also a place of learning, discussion and policy. The division of Shia and Sunnis started in the Masajid. Churches are a good example too. People pray in the church, yet each church adopts it's own policy and outlook on things.
As far as I know, the floor, rugs, walls and ceiling of a church are unable to adopt any policy. So unless you are changing your views that MSJD is a physical place, you are contradicting everything else you are saying.
This is in agreement with what your view is (I think). The difference is that I believe that a Masjid as a system and a Masjid as a place of Sujood are not mutually exclusive.
OK, now I see some progress where you don't take MSJD as merely a place of putting one's forehead on the ground. The primary and overriding meaning is that of MSJD being a system/institution. Part of a system can be a physical place where as you said meetings take place. However, the physical place is NOT the MSJD, it is merely a non-essential part of the MSJD. Hence, if people meet online to institute obedience to The God, it is still an institution of obedience/MSJD despite the absence of a physical meeting place.
3- Fiundation of the Masjid is the person or the group of people that decide to build it, with their own thinking, intentions and studies. Stones, bricks, wood, don't build masjids. People do, and the foundation is in the people and their ideas.
This is good. So if people build a government with their ideas, thinking and intentions where people obey The God, that is a MSJD. This desipte "government" not being a physical building.
MQAM cannot mean a physical place where one stands in verses such as 1973, 1779, etc. If you disagree then please provide a logical translation of those verses substituting "a physical place where you stand" instead of "MQAM".
You are right. MAQAM is allegorical in those situation. In a way that is very related to the Place where you stand.
No the meaning of MQAM as not a physical place but a "status" is the meaning as SPOKEN by Arabs. Remember in 1973 it is the rejecters who spoke those words. This is how the Arabs at the time of the prophet literally understood the word.
How would we do the impossible and stop at EVERY such place to take beautiful things according to 731? How would we do the impossible and face a certain physical building WHEREVER we are according to your understanding of 2144? Would The God CONSISTENTLY ask us to do such physical impossibilities or is it your understanding that is still biased based on what you were taught by sectarians?
The people that do it do not think that it is impossible.
Nobody does it. Give me one person who knocks on people's houses and stops at every rug where anyone ever prayed and stops at every Mosque to take beautiful things. This is physically impossible. Also, show me one person who is facing a building that is below the horizon WHEREVER he is. The fact is because the earth is spherical, that person would be facing outer space and would NEVER be facing such a building. How do you face a building WHEREVER you are. Are you facing it where you are reading this? I think not.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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God's blessings,
Maqaam can be a place as well as a status or stance. The form maf&il is a variation of the form maf&al. Just as mif&al is a variation of mif&aal. There is no need for speculation about some grand connation that each form implies. There are many dialectical variations that exist like this. The word could be masjad instead of masjid or makeen instead of makaan, or maqeem instead of maqaam. But the forms that we have are the ones that were prevalantly used. I'm sure some can attest to some akward forms that the Koran uses and I'm sure such akward forms can be found in other Cl. Arabic literature, but there is no reason to start speculating about whether one form implies an instituation whereas the other just implies a place. Grammatical consistency has to be shown with all or most of the words that use these forms.
Godbless,
Anwar -
In this respect is VERY illustrative an another noun of time and place, namely ?majlis? from the verb jalasa -to sit
It can mean PLACE of sitting(seat, conference room, session room) and/or TIME(or act/instance) of sitting(session, sitting; party, gathering, meeting) and/or INSTITUTION/BODY of
sitting(council, colegium, committee, board, court, tribunal) ....all this usages are very well known, in dictionaries registered and imo wide spread....best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace
mhlong time no see D
nice to see you...
I have an observation more in regards of these nouns of the place and/or time ....
As demonstrated the methaphorisation of their meaning often goes in direction of "institutions".... however this is not the only direction of the methaphorisation ....they also tend to acquire and express the meaning of "position(stance)" and/or "way" or "attitude"....so, at least theoretically, masjid could mean "position(stance)" or "attitude" or "way" of obeying/complying etc. whatever the root meaning of s-j-d denotes...
This is imo best witnessed by the very name the grammarians have given to these nouns -"asmaul makani wal zamani" and "makan" according to my review of dictionaries can mean all above...
best wishes, Zlatan
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peace zlatan and thanks for the reply.
ti is very informative adn helps to get an insight in the Book. what i woudl liek to add is that and i am pretty confident that without a complete approach to the whole book as well as a high sense of real life problems.
i think we ahev been missing the SOCIAL accent of the book as if it has to deal with dead and not with living people.
when we have this in mind then we can see what could 'masjid', salat' and other concepts are all about.
so when you take the book from this point of view then you do not have even to question its authenticity. you will simply see that it is a practical life guide that encompasses the inner and the outer of our being. do you get my point? i hope you do.
thanks again and get back to you soon in a private message with new developments in my research.
peace
mh -
Peace
what i woudl like to add is that and i am pretty confident that without a complete approach to the whole book as well as a high sense of real life problems.
you put it nicely
i think we ahev been missing the SOCIAL accent of the book as if it has to deal with dead and not with living people.
thanks for the reminder!
bets wishes, Zlatan
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I have found another two species of words that word masjid, at least theoretically, might belong to.....
These class of words are masdarul meemiyyu(m/meem -infinitives/verbal nouns) and ismul aalati(noun/s of the instrument/tool/mean)....
Both of these classes starts with m....
1 the meaning of the masdarul-meemiyyu could correspond to sujood-obeying/complying/prostrating/etc.....but imo it might also denote way of obeying/complying/etc....an example similar to this might be a word that is mentioned in the book... Solomon is taught "mantiqut-tayri" -speaking/speech/way of speech of the birds...mantiq is one of masdars/infinitives/verbal nouns based on triliter ntq or verb nati(a)qa(not quite sure how its vocalised) meaning- to speak......there are many roots/words that have more than one infinitive/verbal noun and the infinitives/verbal nouns mainly represent abstract nouns... i am not sure if the meanings of the different verbal nouns belonging to the same verb/root is necessarily different or they can also be the same(havent checked it yet).... from my current knowledge/memory they might differ but this is not necessarily the case...
2 Ismul aalati as they name suggest(nouns of instrument) would give the root sjd meaning of tool/instrument/mean of obeying/complying/etc.
It may be necessary to say that these nouns of instrument(except if there is some rare exception)correspond to the word masjid only in consonant basis, but not in vovels or vocalisation marks, however this may be irrelevant if one considers the consonant basis as a base for finding the original meaning(as I and many others do) - due to differences in vocalisation marks found in different scripts available or due to existence of the scripts without vocalisation marks....
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace be upon you all,
Can someone give an example of what Zlatans information suggests? I am not following.
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Zlatan. I know that the second use of meem that you refer to is the form
mif'al. Meezaan (instrument of mazn), minbaar(instrument of nabr), and meeqaat (instrument of wqt). Are all forms of them.As for the first. I think you mean where mantiq actually refers to nutooq or natq and where masjid could also possible refer to sujood or sajd. That is valid. Just as maghrib, can refer to gharb/ghuroob and mashriq, sharq, shurooq. It's like saying that 'Worship' is where/when worship is done, giving the action a time and place of its own. Like saying, "We went to Worship' as opposed to 'We went to worship.'
Godbless,
Anwar