New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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salaam aabdul,
Re the prophet not knowing the future
I have already dealt with this in my article, quote
Some may claim that this understanding contradicts several passages in AQ in which the prophet Muhammad clearly states he does not know the future. However there is no contradiction, as none knows the future, including Muhammad (5109, 650, 7188, 1020, 18110, 2765, 469, 8124). Only God knows the future and this knowledge can be attained only through divine revelations/signs (344, 3179, 1149, 12102, 302, 7226-2. The messenger only follows what is inspired/revealed to him, and this particular vision is relayed in the revelation itself. This is also suggested when the vision is fulfilled in 4827 "...He knew what you did not know...".And secondly, you ask about my understanding in certain verses, yet in my articles I analyse EVERY occurrence. Please re-read them.
If you wish to compare my understanding with others, e.g. Parwez, I recommend a simple approach create a checklist of various issues/problems and see which understanding is ticking all (or the most) boxes, AND see which meaning provides consistency.
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salaam aabdul,
Re the prophet not knowing the future
I have already dealt with this in my article, quote
Some may claim that this understanding contradicts several passages in AQ in which the prophet Muhammad clearly states he does not know the future. However there is no contradiction, as none knows the future, including Muhammad (5109, 650, 7188, 1020, 18110, 2765, 469, 8124). Only God knows the future and this knowledge can be attained only through divine revelations/signs (344, 3179, 1149, 12102, 302, 7226-2. The messenger only follows what is inspired/revealed to him, and this particular vision is relayed in the revelation itself. This is also suggested when the vision is fulfilled in 4827 "...He knew what you did not know...".Wa' alaikumu ssalam,
Your wish to link with 4827 to make "the vision" a "revelation", I consider this attempt is weak since there is nothing to show in 4827 to prove any sort of revelation to prophet. In verse 4827 Allah says I think again Parwez has provided a fair link for this statement. Here it is;
Translation by Parwez-
(48 27) (O Rasool!) It was because of your most intense desire for the custodianship of Ka'aba (2144), that you dreamt you are entering the inviolable Mosque (in Makkah) as a conqueror (1760). Since your aspirations are according to Our promise, We shall certainly ensure that your dreams come true.* You shall enter the Ka'aba in peace and security without any bloodshed and perform the rites of Hajj, like shaving the head or cutting the hair short (etc.,) without any fear. You will not be afraid of anyone. He knows what you know not; and in the near future He will bestow on you another victory.
*If Makkah had been conquered when this verse was revealed, it could also mean ?We have most certainly seen that your dreams do come true.?
(2144) We are also aware of your constant yearning that you should have possession of, and jurisdiction over the place (Makkah) which We have proclaimed to be the centre of Our system. This will certainly happen. What you need to do is to direct all your activities towards liberating the K?aba from ungodly forces wherever you may be and whatever is your sphere of activity. The fact is that these Ahl-ul-Kit?ab know fully well that your call is based upon truth from Allah (since it was mentioned in their books) but they will continue to oppose it out of stubbornness and prejudice. We are aware of all that they do.
(17 60) Allah gives warning to the wrong-doers through the Rusul. If they apply their minds to the warning without prejudice, the circumstantial evidence would lead them to believe that the warning would come true. For instance, during the early stages of this movement these people were told that they would be brought around towards it gradually; but they simply mocked at it. You had narrated your vision to them saying that you would enter Makkah victoriously one day (4827) but they never took it seriously. By the parable of the ?cursed tree? mentioned in Quran (37/62, 44/43, 56/52) they were warned that if their ring-leaders did not desist opposing the movement, they would be disgraced and humiliated. But they simply mocked at it. These warnings were given in order to cure them but it only increased their rebelliousness as happened in the case of Iblees.One serious Issue-
Suppose if we assume that the supposedly "vision" that was show to prophet during the night journey was was part of a revelation, then several serious questions will arise;
(1) Why details of this vision was not mentioned in 171? Why complete vision/ revelation was not provided in Quran? Were there revelations to prophet outside Quran? The only revelation the prophet received was the Quran and there were no outside revelations to prophet. To believe that prophet received revelations outside Quran is contrary to the teachings of the Quran
(2) Can you show me any instances/ proof from Quran to show that knowledge related to any future event is communicated to prophet seperately without being part of Quran? The prophet is made to categorically state in Quran that he does not know the future. Your theological stand would mean that the prophet personally knew certain things not mentioned in the Quran through divine revelations and there were outside revelations to prophet apart from Quran.
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w/salaam aabdul,
Your stance is potentially contradictory
You clearly hold the view that the prophet received no revelation except Quran AND he did not know the future.
Yet, you hold the view that he had a dream about the future and it came true.Thus, the only position that I think you can hold is that the prophet told others about this dream, that even he didn't know if it was from God or not and if it would come true or not, and it did....... because it happened to coincide with God's promise. Sounds like he knew the future in this instance, according to you...... outside of revelation.
The problem for you however is that in 1760 it clearly says "And We did not make the vision that We showed thee..." directly implying it was via a divine channel. Unless, you are implying God makes statements like this in Quran, and some of them come true, some dont. No. Of course they all come true.
And lastly, you still do not seem to understand my position on this, so let make it simple the prophet only knows the future by way of divine revelation/signs. He does not know the future of his own accord. Note the word used in 171 it is "ayaat"/signs. His vision/revelation is relayed in Quran, found in chapter 17, with all the details needed. You cannot see it because of your understanding of AMAH. With my understanding of AMAH the info is self-contained, i.e. it is all in Quran.
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Your stance is potentially contradictory
You clearly hold the view that the prophet received no revelation except Quran AND he did not know the future.
Yet, you hold the view that he had a dream about the future and it came true.Salaam dear Wakas,
Well, I do not think there is any contradition in what I stated. I tell you how. The prophet dreamt of entering Mekkah victorious due to his own intense longing and constant focus to achieve this goal. He would have failed in his mission if he had failed to liberate Mekkah from ungodly forces. Note verse 2144 that mentions prophet's intense desire to for the custodianship of Ka'aba. It is natural someone who is so focused on a mission to see in dream (every possibility) the success of one's mission. It was not like a dream of winning a lottery and finally by chance winning the said lottery. The prophet and his companions were working for this goal day and night and their efforts finally enabled them to achieve the goal. The dream came true NOT because prophet saw such a dream. I hope my point is clarified now.
Thus, the only position that I think you can hold is that the prophet told others about this dream, that even he didn't know if it was from God or not and if it would come true or not, and it did....... because it happened to coincide with God's promise. Sounds like he knew the future in this instance, according to you...... outside of revelation.
The prophet knew the future in the sense that he had full convinction about the success of his mission and he knew the final outcome of his mission will be conquering Mekkah (not based on dream). It is just like, for instance, I am preparing very well for an examination and trying my level best, day and night, to come at the top. My hardwork and focus may make me naturally see in my dream I come top. I may even tell others about this dream and consequently, imgine if I came at the top, and at that time, would anyone say that it is because I saw such a dream I came top?? In the same way, the prophet naturally might have told other people about the dream he had and about his conviction about the islamic movement finally conquering Mekkah; but many people might have simply mocked at it as I believe verse 1760 suggests
The problem for you however is that in 1760 it clearly says "And We did not make the vision that We showed thee..." directly implying it was via a divine channel. Unless, you are implying God makes statements like this in Quran, and some of them come true, some dont. No. Of course they all come true.
Of course, Allah does make statements like this in Quran. If something happens according to nature, or as an inevitable result, or something happens based on Allah?s will, it is a style of the Quran to attribute such happenings directly to Allah. There are so many examples in the Quran, which I am sure you are aware about. I will list couple of verses as example.
He had shown you that for which ye long (booty) (3152)?.. Then He made you flee from them (your enemy) (3152)
He Who taught (the use of) the Pen (964)
?It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threw (a handful of dust) it was not thy act but Allah's? (817)
Whether ye cut down (O ye Muslim!) The tender palm-trees, or ye left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of Allah (559)
Regarding hunting dogs it is mentioned in 54 ?teaching them as God has taught you?!
Well, let me tell you I do respect you a lot and I have gone through some of your posts, containing full of wisdom. However, on this issue, I believe you have failed to grap the correct understanding, may be due to some preconceived notions (but I must congratulate your effort to go into indepth details)
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salaam aabdul,
Note verse 2144 that mentions prophet's intense desire to for the custodianship of Ka'aba.
2144 does not say that, the above is an interpretation.
Thank you for clarifying your position on the prophet knowing the future issue, although I still do not consider it a good fit.
Well, let me tell you I do respect you a lot and I have gone through some of your posts, containing full of wisdom. However, on this issue, I believe you have failed to grap the correct understanding, may be due to some preconceived notions (but I must congratulate your effort to go into indepth details)
We have only really discussed chapter 17 in relation to your/Parwez view. There are still plenty of issues to consider, quote from article
'The Sacred Mosque' fares most poorly in 171, 2142-150, 2217, 928, and relatively poorly in 2196, 2225, 919. Also, please note that traditional commentators (e.g. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas) frequently switch their understanding of AMAH depending on verse, e.g. it can mean 'the sacred site/area of prostration' in 171, 'kaaba (cuboid)' in 2144/2149/2150, 'the sanctuary / Mecca' in 2196, 2217, 2225, 928. Usually, when one forces an incorrect understanding into AQ it will result in inconsistency/variance/contradiction, see the important test of 482. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.
I have not tested Parwez' view with regards to the above. I may do so in the future.
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Salam brother Waqas,
Verse 2.144 may not be stating so in a literal translation. But it is the message of the verse. I prefer this exposition from Parwez for and also he interpreted as direct all your activities towards liberating the K?aba from ungodly forces wherever you may be and whatever is your sphere of activity (instead of traditional translation as 'Wherever ye are, turn your faces in the direction of sacred mosque'. It does not make sense the instruction here is just to pray facing Mekkah or to take care while contructing mosque to face Mekkah and all. However, of course this could be one of the actions taken by Muslims based on this verse to unite the Ummah to focus in their mission. I strongly believe traditional translation does not capture the true intended meaning of the verse.
'The Sacred Mosque' fares most poorly in 171, 2142-150, 2217, 928, and relatively poorly in 2196, 2225, 919. Also, please note that traditional commentators (e.g. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas) frequently switch their understanding of AMAH depending on verse, e.g. it can mean 'the sacred site/area of prostration' in 171, 'kaaba (cuboid)' in 2144/2149/2150, 'the sanctuary / Mecca' in 2196, 2217, 2225, 928. Usually, when one forces an incorrect understanding into AQ it will result in inconsistency/variance/contradiction, see the important test of 482. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.
It may fare poorly if we take into consideration the traditional understanding of a Masjid (SJD) as ?building? or ?structure? meant for conducting prayer alone. According to Quran, the position of mosque stands to serve as a central place of the system where various activities of the State are performed in order to establish Sujood to Allah. The Quran states and it means the ultimate aim of Kabah holding central position is to see that the entire mankind stands at its own (597). It is established for the benefit of entire mankind (396); it is open for the whole of mankind, for those who dwell there and for those who come from abroad (2225) to be kept undefiled by man-made beliefs and ideas (2125). A traditional understanding of the term Masjid can create problems for proper appreciation of some of the verses in the Quran.
I have not tested Parwez' view with regards to the above. I may do so in the future.
I kindly request you, to cross check with exposition of the Quran by Parwez also while you do any research on any topics, at the least just to know how he has translated any particular verse. You can find it here http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm. Insha Allah I will be posting here the view of Parwez in detail related to our discussion at some other stage from his work Tabveeb Ul Quran (the translation readily not available with me). It is a three volume work running into around 2000 pages. It is like an encyclopedia, by dividing the entire Quranic teachings in separate chapters, under different subjects, so that anybody who seeks guidance from the Quran regarding a particular issue of life, may be able to find it out, at a single place, relevant to that issue. I hope to extract the discussion later and post it here, even if it takes couple of months.
I believe I had a nice discussion with you and I need to re-read again your work to get complete grasp of the points you are discussing )
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Peace Wakas,
I do not really find that my interpretation has issues, but I will eventually present better coherence in the translations I provide to show that masjed haram has just to do with a group of people who follow the command of God.
It has to do with grammatical and linguistic misconceptions.
Okay. In ways I can find that my interpretation has issues, if we do not find better words to translate masjed haram, and translate surrounding words the way they always have. But it is no location or building at all in its meaning, that I can quite safely vote for.
You hopefully also see the absurdity that Muhammad was taken from masjed haram to masjed aqsa. That passage is still a mystery to me, but I am sure it has nothing to do with some ascension but something more earthbound like a linguistic description that he improved very much or similar, i.e. he was not transported from one location to another at all.
Be whole
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peace MofF,
Generally, I am of the view that if options exist for an understanding, then evidence is weighed for each option and the strongest evidenced option determined, if there is one. In this particular case, I am of the view that "al masjid al haram" (AMAH) means 'the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement' (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). Since there has been little analytical discussion of this and other alternative meanings, it may be common for people (including myself) to hold an alternative and not see any issues with it. My article is an attempt to consider multiple options, and provide somewhat of a checklist wherein people can run their understanding through, whatever their understanding is. It is primarily intended as a tool, not a polemic.
As I said to you in the other thread, I agree with you that AMAH meaning "the sacred mosque" building is problematic, but so is your understanding. Quote from article
'the restriced/inviolable act of SJD/compliance' and 'the inviolable institution of SJD/obedience' fare most poorly in 171, 2196, and relatively poorly in 2142-150, 2225, 919, 928. Since these two are novel understandings there has been little analytical discussion about them. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it is recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.
You said
"...masjed haram has just to do with a group of people who follow the command of God."
and
"Okay. In ways I can find that my interpretation has issues..."Before we can attempt discussion, you will need to provide a rough translation of the phrase in question, showing what word means what
masjid = ?
haram = ?al masjid al haram = ?
Then we can insert it into the occurrences I have highlighted to see if it holds.
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Well. You know the meaning of m - sujud and you know haram so it is not so hard.
Salaan
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peace all,
I have updated the article with the following information which is somewhat significant
177 If you do good, you do good for yourselves, and if you do bad, then it is for it (i.e. yourselves). So when came the last/after promise, to sadden/distress your faces/wills and enter al maSJD just as they entered it the first time, and to destroy what they had overcome/conquered (with) destruction.
178 Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you revert then so will We. And We made Hell a gathering place for the rejecters/concealers/ungrateful.Note that 177 begins with a conditional particle (Arabic "in", English "if" and makes a prophecy using imperfect verbs (see words underlined), implying it is referring to the future, not as Traditionally understood referring to the past. Also, the following verse 178 adds to the indication of future, warning the present audience.
Another problem for the traditional understanding, and perhaps other understandings.
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To me masjed does not even have to be a location. It is a categorizer "of compliancy" as an attribute giver.
That stands for me though.
Salaam
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Peace
It will be easier to understand what is Al Masjid Al Haram if we get the answers of the following questions
Is Masjid Al Haram a place of Islamic prayer which surrounds the present Kaaba in Mecca?
Who built the Masjid Al Haram in MECCA?
There is no evidence that the believers constructed the Masjid Al Haram in Mecca during the period of the messenger
If the disbelievers did construct it then why they constructed it instead of constructing a temple full of idols?
If Masjid Al Haram is a place of Islamic prayer then, why it was appointed for MANKIND (all caste and religion)? 2225
If Masjid Al Haram is a place of Islamic prayer then, how a stranger and dweller are equal? 2225
Why Allah is warning mankind against wrong doing in Al Masjid Al Haram? 2225
What worse can you do in a place where prayers are offered? 2225
If Masjid Al Haram is a place of Islamic prayer then who were the people of the Masjid Al Haram who were expelled? 2217
What is disbelief in Masjid Al Haram? 2217
Why expelling from Masjid Al Haram is a greater evil whereas from other places not? 2217
How a place of Islamic prayer is a place of residence 2196
Ha-Dad-Ra = To be present, present at, stand in presence of, hurt, be at hand. To come or arrive, to be ready or prepared, to attend someone or come into someones presence, to present oneself to or before a thing or person, to visit a person, to be in the vicinity of a place, to live or dwell in or become an inhabitant of a place, witness or see a thing, behold a thing with one's eye, to answer or reply, dispute or debate, contend with and overcome someone, to intrude.
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 224, 225, 226, 227
Expulsion is always from home and not from Mosque 598
If Masjid Al Haram is the place of Islamic prayer then what were the disbelievers doing in Masjid Al Haram of which they were the Guardians? 834
Is there any mosque in the world which has GUARDIANS and that too RIGHREOUS? 834
Were the disbelievers offering prayers in Masjid Al Haram 834?
Why was the peace treaty signed at/near the Masjid Al Haram, valid for one year? 97
Why fighting was prohibited at the Masjid Al Haram and why not at other places of Mecca? 2191
Why the people were turned away (expelled) from Masjid Al Haram and why not from other places of Mecca? 834
Why the disbelievers were barred from the Masjid Al Haram and why not from Mecca? 928
Why Masjid Al Haram was appointed as the Qiblah and why not KAABA or MECCA 2145
Why the Prophet shall enter Masjid Al Haram and why not Mecca or other place of Mecca? 4827
Why Masjid Al Haram is given so much importance rather than Mecca
What is the fear involved of the wrong doers while changing the prayer direction from --------- to Masjid Al Haram? 2150
Thanks
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The Masjid Al-Haram is contrary to what the traditionalists like to have you believe, Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Still called today haram al-sharif by muslims.
My understanding is there never was a change in Qiblah ordered by God. The whole meaning of those words has been messed with by traditionalists so they could return to their pagan ways of worshipping a rock someone found in the desert.
The change of Qiblah is nowhere supported by Quran.
There is no Mosque dating back to when Muhammad was alive that points to Mecca. They all point to Jerusalem.
The worship of the kaaba is nowhere supported by Quran.
The understanding of Jerusalem as Al-Aqsa contradicts Quran where it calls Palestine the 'nearest' land.
The dome of the rock is not a Mosque but an octagonal shrine, pointing to all directions without having a Qiblah.
I rest my case.
Peace
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Peace
Calling Temple Mount in Jerusalem as Haram al Sharif by the Muslims is same as calling the surrounding area of Kaba as Masjid Al Haram without any concrete evidence.
The whole Saudi and its ingredients (mecca, medina, kaba, masjid al haram, bayt, bayt al haram, hajj, umrah, arafaat, safa and marwah) are a web of deception.
Thanks
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Oh there is evidence for it. Plenty. No hadith required. Both Quranic and archeological evidence btw.
Peace
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Peace
Are there plenty of Quranic verses and evidences to prove Masjid al haram? I am interested in collecting evidences to prove that the present Masjid al haram is the same that of the Quran and if you can provide me with one evidence I shall be thankful to you.
Thanks
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peace rlz,
The change of Qiblah is nowhere supported by Quran.
I have seen you claim the above before and also present no further explanation of the verses or evidence etc.
2142 The foolish from the people will say "What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on* it?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomever He wishes to a straight/establishing path."
2143 And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.
2144 Indeed, We see thy face/consideration/purpose shifting/moving fee/in the sky/heaven; so We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a qiblah/focal-point that will please thee so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al maSJD al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction and indeed those who have been given the writ/decree know that it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do.
2145 And even if thou come to those who have been given the writ/decree with all signs/evidences they would not follow thy qiblah/focal-point, and nor will thou be a follower of their qiblah/focal-point, and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah/focal-point. And surely if thou were to follow their desires from after what came to thou of the knowledge, indeed thou would then surely be among the wrongdoers.Please explain the above, thanks.
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2142 The foolish from the people will say "What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on* it?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomever He wishes to a straight/establishing path."
If you honestly look at the verse leading up to this one, you will find out it speaks about the Jews and Christians who "turned away from the qiblah" and concealed the "testimony". In short, the Jews and Christians lost their faith, corrupted it and concealed it. In this sense they turned from their qiblah. Jews were not allowed access to temple mount by the christians who made every effort in preventing the jews from reclaiming the place or attributing importance to it.
2143 And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.
Again, Quran repeats the function of those following the messenger to be witnesses over christians, jews, the gentile. Those following the messenger weren't christian nor jewish. Most of them were polytheists before they accepted the messenger and the message. In this sense, God is aware he asks them to turn to a qiblah (temple mount) that they are not used to (as it is considered a jewish/christian qiblah). The qiblah the early followers of the messenger were used to were most likely rocks (like the kaaba) and statues.
2144 Indeed, We see thy face/consideration/purpose shifting/moving fee/in the sky/heaven; so We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a qiblah/focal-point that will please thee so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al maSJD al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction and indeed those who have been given the writ/decree know that it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do.
Quran reaffirms the qiblah to be Temple Mount, a qiblah considered to be jewish.
2145 And even if thou come to those who have been given the writ/decree with all signs/evidences they would not follow thy qiblah/focal-point, and nor will thou be a follower of their qiblah/focal-point, and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah/focal-point. And surely if thou were to follow their desires from after what came to thou of the knowledge, indeed thou would then surely be among the wrongdoers.
God is aware this Qiblah has been corrupted in the past (by christians and jews) and shows awareness of the coming attempts in the future of people wanting to change the qiblah claiming to be muslim. QED by history.
The corrupted faith of the christians and jews is dealt with throughout many verses in the Quran. It points out their corruptions as well as it reaffirms elements that are still true. Masjid al Haram as the Qiblah is reaffirmed, leaving no doubts to the believers and making the muslims witness over the jewish and christians who turned away from their convenant with God.
Only this interpretation allows you to give meaning to and answer the question in the previous verse 2140
"Or (do) you say that Ibrahim and Ishmael and Isaac and Yaqub and the descendants were Jews or Christians?"
Answer They were muslim. Calling them christian or jew would associate them with those that concealed the testimony they received from God.
Peace
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Only after the control of Jerusalem by Islamic rulers, temple mount became accessible to jews again. In this sense, muslims were indeed historically the balanced people who were the witness over the jews and christians, securing access to Temple Mount for all just like Quran describes.
PS Also note the verse expressing "a qiblah that will please thee" shows us this desire for a qiblah is human. It's God filling in a desire of man. As such I don't consider any qiblah so much as a crucial element in sujud. To me these are crutches offered for those who need it in performing their sujud. Though the qiblah to me still has a very strong symbolical importance. The israeli-palestinian conflict did not break this command of God to make Temple mount accessible to all, under the watching eye of muslims.
At the same time this was a strong catalyst in distincting who was truly accepting the messenger and his message. Those turning back on their heels are those who have been historically always attempting to restrict access to Temple Mount or conceal its meaning. Historically this is backed up by the fact the early islamic rulers controlling Jerusalem did not just turn christian/jewish buildings into islamic ones (in contrary to eg Aya Sofia). The message was clearly understood in early islamic history, they were very careful not to do such a thing. Converting a jewish or christian building into an islamic one would automatically reveal you as anything but muslim, more likely jewish or christian or disbeliever.
Peace
