New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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peace MofF,
Generally, I am of the view that if options exist for an understanding, then evidence is weighed for each option and the strongest evidenced option determined, if there is one. In this particular case, I am of the view that "al masjid al haram" (AMAH) means 'the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement' (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). Since there has been little analytical discussion of this and other alternative meanings, it may be common for people (including myself) to hold an alternative and not see any issues with it. My article is an attempt to consider multiple options, and provide somewhat of a checklist wherein people can run their understanding through, whatever their understanding is. It is primarily intended as a tool, not a polemic.
As I said to you in the other thread, I agree with you that AMAH meaning "the sacred mosque" building is problematic, but so is your understanding. Quote from article
'the restriced/inviolable act of SJD/compliance' and 'the inviolable institution of SJD/obedience' fare most poorly in 171, 2196, and relatively poorly in 2142-150, 2225, 919, 928. Since these two are novel understandings there has been little analytical discussion about them. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it is recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.
You said
"...masjed haram has just to do with a group of people who follow the command of God."
and
"Okay. In ways I can find that my interpretation has issues..."Before we can attempt discussion, you will need to provide a rough translation of the phrase in question, showing what word means what
masjid = ?
haram = ?al masjid al haram = ?
Then we can insert it into the occurrences I have highlighted to see if it holds.
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Well. You know the meaning of m - sujud and you know haram so it is not so hard.
Salaan
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peace all,
I have updated the article with the following information which is somewhat significant
177 If you do good, you do good for yourselves, and if you do bad, then it is for it (i.e. yourselves). So when came the last/after promise, to sadden/distress your faces/wills and enter al maSJD just as they entered it the first time, and to destroy what they had overcome/conquered (with) destruction.
178 Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you revert then so will We. And We made Hell a gathering place for the rejecters/concealers/ungrateful.Note that 177 begins with a conditional particle (Arabic "in", English "if" and makes a prophecy using imperfect verbs (see words underlined), implying it is referring to the future, not as Traditionally understood referring to the past. Also, the following verse 178 adds to the indication of future, warning the present audience.
Another problem for the traditional understanding, and perhaps other understandings.
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To me masjed does not even have to be a location. It is a categorizer "of compliancy" as an attribute giver.
That stands for me though.
Salaam
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Peace
It will be easier to understand what is Al Masjid Al Haram if we get the answers of the following questions
Is Masjid Al Haram a place of Islamic prayer which surrounds the present Kaaba in Mecca?
Who built the Masjid Al Haram in MECCA?
There is no evidence that the believers constructed the Masjid Al Haram in Mecca during the period of the messenger
If the disbelievers did construct it then why they constructed it instead of constructing a temple full of idols?
If Masjid Al Haram is a place of Islamic prayer then, why it was appointed for MANKIND (all caste and religion)? 2225
If Masjid Al Haram is a place of Islamic prayer then, how a stranger and dweller are equal? 2225
Why Allah is warning mankind against wrong doing in Al Masjid Al Haram? 2225
What worse can you do in a place where prayers are offered? 2225
If Masjid Al Haram is a place of Islamic prayer then who were the people of the Masjid Al Haram who were expelled? 2217
What is disbelief in Masjid Al Haram? 2217
Why expelling from Masjid Al Haram is a greater evil whereas from other places not? 2217
How a place of Islamic prayer is a place of residence 2196
Ha-Dad-Ra = To be present, present at, stand in presence of, hurt, be at hand. To come or arrive, to be ready or prepared, to attend someone or come into someones presence, to present oneself to or before a thing or person, to visit a person, to be in the vicinity of a place, to live or dwell in or become an inhabitant of a place, witness or see a thing, behold a thing with one's eye, to answer or reply, dispute or debate, contend with and overcome someone, to intrude.
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 224, 225, 226, 227
Expulsion is always from home and not from Mosque 598
If Masjid Al Haram is the place of Islamic prayer then what were the disbelievers doing in Masjid Al Haram of which they were the Guardians? 834
Is there any mosque in the world which has GUARDIANS and that too RIGHREOUS? 834
Were the disbelievers offering prayers in Masjid Al Haram 834?
Why was the peace treaty signed at/near the Masjid Al Haram, valid for one year? 97
Why fighting was prohibited at the Masjid Al Haram and why not at other places of Mecca? 2191
Why the people were turned away (expelled) from Masjid Al Haram and why not from other places of Mecca? 834
Why the disbelievers were barred from the Masjid Al Haram and why not from Mecca? 928
Why Masjid Al Haram was appointed as the Qiblah and why not KAABA or MECCA 2145
Why the Prophet shall enter Masjid Al Haram and why not Mecca or other place of Mecca? 4827
Why Masjid Al Haram is given so much importance rather than Mecca
What is the fear involved of the wrong doers while changing the prayer direction from --------- to Masjid Al Haram? 2150
Thanks
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The Masjid Al-Haram is contrary to what the traditionalists like to have you believe, Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Still called today haram al-sharif by muslims.
My understanding is there never was a change in Qiblah ordered by God. The whole meaning of those words has been messed with by traditionalists so they could return to their pagan ways of worshipping a rock someone found in the desert.
The change of Qiblah is nowhere supported by Quran.
There is no Mosque dating back to when Muhammad was alive that points to Mecca. They all point to Jerusalem.
The worship of the kaaba is nowhere supported by Quran.
The understanding of Jerusalem as Al-Aqsa contradicts Quran where it calls Palestine the 'nearest' land.
The dome of the rock is not a Mosque but an octagonal shrine, pointing to all directions without having a Qiblah.
I rest my case.
Peace
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Peace
Calling Temple Mount in Jerusalem as Haram al Sharif by the Muslims is same as calling the surrounding area of Kaba as Masjid Al Haram without any concrete evidence.
The whole Saudi and its ingredients (mecca, medina, kaba, masjid al haram, bayt, bayt al haram, hajj, umrah, arafaat, safa and marwah) are a web of deception.
Thanks
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Oh there is evidence for it. Plenty. No hadith required. Both Quranic and archeological evidence btw.
Peace
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Peace
Are there plenty of Quranic verses and evidences to prove Masjid al haram? I am interested in collecting evidences to prove that the present Masjid al haram is the same that of the Quran and if you can provide me with one evidence I shall be thankful to you.
Thanks
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peace rlz,
The change of Qiblah is nowhere supported by Quran.
I have seen you claim the above before and also present no further explanation of the verses or evidence etc.
2142 The foolish from the people will say "What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on* it?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomever He wishes to a straight/establishing path."
2143 And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.
2144 Indeed, We see thy face/consideration/purpose shifting/moving fee/in the sky/heaven; so We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a qiblah/focal-point that will please thee so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al maSJD al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction and indeed those who have been given the writ/decree know that it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do.
2145 And even if thou come to those who have been given the writ/decree with all signs/evidences they would not follow thy qiblah/focal-point, and nor will thou be a follower of their qiblah/focal-point, and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah/focal-point. And surely if thou were to follow their desires from after what came to thou of the knowledge, indeed thou would then surely be among the wrongdoers.Please explain the above, thanks.
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2142 The foolish from the people will say "What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on* it?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomever He wishes to a straight/establishing path."
If you honestly look at the verse leading up to this one, you will find out it speaks about the Jews and Christians who "turned away from the qiblah" and concealed the "testimony". In short, the Jews and Christians lost their faith, corrupted it and concealed it. In this sense they turned from their qiblah. Jews were not allowed access to temple mount by the christians who made every effort in preventing the jews from reclaiming the place or attributing importance to it.
2143 And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.
Again, Quran repeats the function of those following the messenger to be witnesses over christians, jews, the gentile. Those following the messenger weren't christian nor jewish. Most of them were polytheists before they accepted the messenger and the message. In this sense, God is aware he asks them to turn to a qiblah (temple mount) that they are not used to (as it is considered a jewish/christian qiblah). The qiblah the early followers of the messenger were used to were most likely rocks (like the kaaba) and statues.
2144 Indeed, We see thy face/consideration/purpose shifting/moving fee/in the sky/heaven; so We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a qiblah/focal-point that will please thee so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al maSJD al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction and indeed those who have been given the writ/decree know that it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do.
Quran reaffirms the qiblah to be Temple Mount, a qiblah considered to be jewish.
2145 And even if thou come to those who have been given the writ/decree with all signs/evidences they would not follow thy qiblah/focal-point, and nor will thou be a follower of their qiblah/focal-point, and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah/focal-point. And surely if thou were to follow their desires from after what came to thou of the knowledge, indeed thou would then surely be among the wrongdoers.
God is aware this Qiblah has been corrupted in the past (by christians and jews) and shows awareness of the coming attempts in the future of people wanting to change the qiblah claiming to be muslim. QED by history.
The corrupted faith of the christians and jews is dealt with throughout many verses in the Quran. It points out their corruptions as well as it reaffirms elements that are still true. Masjid al Haram as the Qiblah is reaffirmed, leaving no doubts to the believers and making the muslims witness over the jewish and christians who turned away from their convenant with God.
Only this interpretation allows you to give meaning to and answer the question in the previous verse 2140
"Or (do) you say that Ibrahim and Ishmael and Isaac and Yaqub and the descendants were Jews or Christians?"
Answer They were muslim. Calling them christian or jew would associate them with those that concealed the testimony they received from God.
Peace
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Only after the control of Jerusalem by Islamic rulers, temple mount became accessible to jews again. In this sense, muslims were indeed historically the balanced people who were the witness over the jews and christians, securing access to Temple Mount for all just like Quran describes.
PS Also note the verse expressing "a qiblah that will please thee" shows us this desire for a qiblah is human. It's God filling in a desire of man. As such I don't consider any qiblah so much as a crucial element in sujud. To me these are crutches offered for those who need it in performing their sujud. Though the qiblah to me still has a very strong symbolical importance. The israeli-palestinian conflict did not break this command of God to make Temple mount accessible to all, under the watching eye of muslims.
At the same time this was a strong catalyst in distincting who was truly accepting the messenger and his message. Those turning back on their heels are those who have been historically always attempting to restrict access to Temple Mount or conceal its meaning. Historically this is backed up by the fact the early islamic rulers controlling Jerusalem did not just turn christian/jewish buildings into islamic ones (in contrary to eg Aya Sofia). The message was clearly understood in early islamic history, they were very careful not to do such a thing. Converting a jewish or christian building into an islamic one would automatically reveal you as anything but muslim, more likely jewish or christian or disbeliever.
Peace
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Qiblah represents that which we consider as higher, normally one of the signs of God. Masjid al Haram is one, it could be that, the place is considered holy or the name is just representation of one of the many signs of God which is Holy.
So different communities have their own Qiblah since each of us sees God differently. -
One should also consider 1435
And when said Ibrahim, "My Lord! Make this city safe/of peace/secure and keep me away and my sons that we worship the idols."
Translate city of peace/security to Hebrew and you end up with Jerusalem.
and
396
Indeed, (the) First House set up for the mankind (is) the one which (is) at Bakkah
Bakkah is a place in Jerusalem.
Psalms 846 passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
"How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ..... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ..... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand ; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
The denial of access to jews by christians is described in Quran
2225 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.
and
4825 They are those who concealed/rejected and hindered you from/concerning al maSJD al haram, and prevented the offering/gift from reaching its permitted/lawful place. And if not for believing men and believing women whom you did not know, that you may trample them so would befall you from them sin without knowledge, that God may admit in His mercy whomever He wills. If they had been apart** surely We would then have punished those who concealed/rejected among them with a painful retribution.
among others
@Wakas I believe your article and research is sincere, but I think it suffers from "throwing away the child with the bathwater". If you critically re-examine the verses which you only contrast to traditional viewpoints in your article and contrast them with the theory Masjid Al-Haram is in Jerusalem, it will be hard to deny all those verses describing a safe place, a sanctuary, Gods house are all referring to Jerusalem and that the hijra was a journey from jerusalem to the farthest removed masjid.
You also claim this about the word masjid
Interestingly, it has been noted that according to traditional grammarians themselves the word form "masjid" does NOT conform to their own rules of morphology when determining a 'noun of place' (e.g. mosque), so they treat "masjid" as an exception to their rules. In other words, according to their own linguistic rules if it meant a 'noun of place' the form should more correctly be "masjad" (i.e. with a fatha on the second root consonant Jiim). For example, the noun of place/location for RaQaDa (same form as SaJaDa) is maRQaD not maRQiD, for NaKaBa is maNKaB not maNKiB. However, that does mean the form "masjid" cannot be a 'noun of place', it theoretically can, as the grammarians also list other exceptions to their rule which are used in AQ and they do seem to indicate time/place (and perhaps concept).
This totally ignores the fact masjid is a borrowed word in the arab language.
Peace
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peace rlz,
I have seen you claim the above before and also present no further explanation of the verses or evidence etc.
2142 The foolish from the people will say "What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on* it?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomever He wishes to a straight/establishing path."
2143 And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.
2144 Indeed, We see thy face/consideration/purpose shifting/moving fee/in the sky/heaven; so We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a qiblah/focal-point that will please thee so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al maSJD al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction and indeed those who have been given the writ/decree know that it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do.
2145 And even if thou come to those who have been given the writ/decree with all signs/evidences they would not follow thy qiblah/focal-point, and nor will thou be a follower of their qiblah/focal-point, and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah/focal-point. And surely if thou were to follow their desires from after what came to thou of the knowledge, indeed thou would then surely be among the wrongdoers.Please explain the above, thanks.
Salaam Wakas.
i will make a try.
in many places in quran, it is said that islam is to "aslim wajhahou li Allah". Wich i traduct by orient his "spiritual" direction to God.
Qibla, for me, has nothing to do with a focal point in a geographic meaning. It goes with tariq mostaqim, straight path, wich is also a spiritual orientation path, not a geographical direction, that is the one in direction of God.if we read carefully 2-144, the beginning of verse doesn't mean that Muhammad didn't knew where old qibla was. It just mean that Muhammad was spiritually disoriented in the meaning that he didn't knew what to do. Answer of God was, "after receiver quran, you have to preach my words in masjid".
The opposite direction of "qibla of God" is Qibla of Human Hearsays.
Going back to his heels is to leave path of God to turn back on path of humans and priests.Abraham built first bayt (house) and not first masjid. Soujoud is hearing and obeying. Noah did something like that before Abraham. Noah didn't build a buiding for that.
Abraham built the first geographical meeting location for Hajj. And First mean that can be there others.1821 And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that the promise of God is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued among themselves regarding them, so they said ?build (ban'y) a building (bonian) for them!? Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who managed to win the argument said ?We will take (ittakhadhhou) a temple over them.?
So masjid is not a building
Allah don't use word build with masjid. build is for building. and Masjid is used with word itakhid. no building of any masjid in quran.
Masjid is like marriage or concert. it is the function wich is important, not the building. It is where believers hears what Allah forbids.For example
2225 Surely, those who have rejected and repel from the path of God, and from the Masjid Haram that We have made for the people ? for the one devoted therein and the one who visits it ? and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
that is rejectors want to repel believers from what God says. not to to repel them to enter in a building somewhere in hijaz.
We beliewe with spirit. Allah talk mainly to spirit. Wajh (direction) of Allah is only spiritual, because geographically, Allah is everywhere.
Peace
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peace rlz,
When you said
"The change of Qiblah is nowhere supported by Quran."I had assumed you thought the verses implied no change in qiblah, but in your response you seem to be saying there was a change in qiblah (at least for the believers), e.g. your quote
"God is aware he asks them to turn to a qiblah (temple mount) that they are not used to..."
Thus, you will have to clarify.
There are several issues with your view, but it seems it has a central contradiction
You said
Jews were not allowed access to temple mount by the christians who made every effort in preventing the jews from reclaiming the place or attributing importance to it.
Jews clearly hold the temple mount as qiblah according to you, BUT
Quran says
2145 And even if thou come to those who have been given the writ/decree with all signs/evidences they would not follow thy qiblah/focal-point, and nor will thou be a follower of their qiblah/focal-point, and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah/focal-pointBelievers are not following their qiblah, nor will Jews follow believers. Contradiction.
As it stands, your view does not work.
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peace wakas,
About the first objection I can be short. There was never a change in Qiblah ordered by God. If you read the sentence after the one you quoted you'd have figured out what I meant. The followers of the messengers had self-invented qiblahs before they accepted the message they worshipped stones, statues, natural formations with special features. Those qiblahs of polytheists were of course never ordered by God. They are false qiblahs. I do not believe in abrogation.
About your second objection I have a different understanding about "those who have been given the writ/decree". You seem to suggest those are the jews. I think this is a mistake, jews all have one qiblah, it was never changed. Those given the decree with all signs are muslims, the followers of the messenger. The decree with clear signs is Quran. Rendering the verse to something like
Even those given the clear signs (quran) will refuse following the qiblah, nor will you follow their qiblah, and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah.
It simply speaks about Gods awareness among the believers (muslims) there will be disagreement and dispute about the qiblah, even after been given clear signs. It does not speak about the jews.
The verse states, following "their desires" showing these are man-made qiblahs a believer should not follow after what has come to them. This verse was prophetic. Muslims received clear signs about the Qiblah being temple mount and what happened? They changed it to mecca.
Here's a question for you why was one of the first military objectives of the Islamic rulers Jerusalem? Do you think it is coincidence they engaged with byzantine forces to liberate Jerusalem? Do you think it's coincidence jews were allowed to regain access to temple mount under islamic rule whereas before they were expelled after reading these verses? Cant you see this is the test/challenge involved with the Qiblah God speaks about? When these verses were revealed, jerusalem was under byzantine control. They had no access to it.
So, at the time these verses were revealed Jerusalem is controlled by byzantines, christians. The christians disallow access to Jerusalem or Temple Mount to jews. God solved this crisis about the sanctuary by appointing Temple Mount as the Qiblah for muslims. These muslims before they accepted the message all had different qiblahs or none, they all prayed to different Gods before accepting the message. By accepting the message they accept the Qiblah, they made it one of their initial military objectives. Jerusalem was conquered and the dispute considering Temple Mount was resolved. Quran not only ligns up with these historical events, it also ligns up with what happened after. Saladin who destroyed the christian, jewish buildings and completely islamicized the place again. The crusades. Muslims changing the qiblah to mecca and returning to pagan traditions of worshipping rocks. Quran still ligns up with actual events today the checkpoints installed by the Israeli government does not grant free access to all to Temple Mount. Quranists dispute about where the qiblah is, some here even deny there even is such a thing (do they claim the qiblahs of early mosques are coincidental?).
PS Look at 2144 "We see thy face/consideration/purpose shifting/moving fee/in the sky/heaven; so We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a qiblah/focal-point that will please thee". You are aware Temple Mount is towering above the city of Jerusalem, even to this day and controlled by an Islamic authority in 2015?
Peace
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peace rlz,
Thanks for the reply however it requires further clarification in order for it to be possible and not contradict
2142 The foolish from the people will say "What has turned THEM...
Who are THEM?
Your replies suggest it is the Jews/Christians, but if so, the people asking such cannot be classed as foolish, as you openly admit the Jews turning away from the Temple mount is wrong, thus would make the askers of sound-mind.Your rendering of 2145 makes little sense, and very awkward wording
2145
And even if thou come to those who have been given the quran they would not follow thy qiblah/focal-point (temple mount), and nor will thou be a follower of their qiblah/focal-point (stone idol place?), and nor some of them are followers of each others qiblah/focal-point. And surely if thou were to follow their desires from after what came to thou of the knowledge, indeed thou would then surely be among the wrongdoers.
2146
Those to whom We have given the quran recognise it (AMAH=temple mount) like they recognise their sons; and indeed a group of them surely hides the truth while they know.2150 ...so that not will be for the people against you debate...
According to you everyone (christians, jews, those given quran) are disputing the qiblah thus would increase debate, not reduce it.The messenger triumphed and God completed His favour, thus those given Quran did heed the qiblah.
Your view also has other issues such as awkward present tense reading of 2143.
In any case, your rendering has too many issues for me to consider it viable.
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peace noshirk,
Qibla, for me, has nothing to do with a focal point in a geographic meaning. It goes with tariq mostaqim, straight path, wich is also a spiritual orientation path, not a geographical direction, that is the one in direction of God.
2142 The foolish from the people will say "What has turned THEM from the straight path which they were on it?"
Who are THEM?
