So did anyone figured out what salat is?
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Peace hawk99,
Please study the quran regarding salat, and then after a genuine personal
attempt to understand how you are to go about establishing salat, WHATEVER
way and timings you arrive at will be the best way for you. This way might be
somewhat different from others but should be perfectly acceptable, as long as
it involves remembering the Creator and implementing the guidance received
in your daily life, thereby resulting in physical, mental, and spiritual progress, a
nd walking the "good deeds" path.May the Creator bless you.
Peace truthseeker11
I think your conclusion is sound in the absence of acceptable rites
but we do have acceptable rites already in place, why should they be
abandoned/or adjusted?And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House
Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the KnowingOur Lord, and make us Muslims to You and from our descendants a
Muslim nation to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance.
Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.What rites do you conclude were given to Ibrahim if any?
God bless you
peace
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The word you designate as rites in the quoted passage does not necessarily mean that. It has other lexical meanings as well such as piety and "to apply oneself" as commitment as well as servitude and acts such as that. Those are also the kind of "rituals" we are supposed to do.
Salaam
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Peace hawk99,
I agree with Man of Faith on this issue.
I will urge you to be very careful with relying on other peoples translations and to verify everything for yourself. For example in 2127 you quoted
And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House
Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the KnowingWhoever translated this verse mistranslated a key phrase thereby misguiding billions. It does not say "al-qawa3id al-bayt" meaning "the foundations of the house", but says "al-qawa3id min al-bayt" meaning "the foundations FROM the house", which completely changes the meaning.
The proper translation would be
2127 And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations FROM the house ......
Usually al-bayt has a physical meaning in al-quran but the usage of "min" in this verse before al-bayt turns it into a mental bayt instead of a physical one, which implies something like a "system" instead of a physical house.
Examples of a non physical house in English would be "House of Commons", "Speaker of the House" etc.
Coming back to "mansak", some points
- The root "Nun-Siin-Kaf" also has meanings of "to lead a devout life, to be pious, to serve the creator, to apply oneself".
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Thus "mansak" can also mean "an act of piety or devotion/servitude to the creator" which fits perfectly in 2128.
2128 Our lord, make us muslims to you and from our descendants a muslim nation to you. And show us our acts of piety/servitude/devotion and accept our repentance ......
Please note that "muslims" in this verse has to be a common noun with a small "m" rather than a proper name with a capital "M" (as you have quoted), because of the usage with "lak"/"to you". Muslim to you (implying proper name of a religion) would be nonsensical here, but "muslim" to you (implying a common noun state of being) would make sense.
- You mentioning "manasik" in context of our discussion about salat implies that you think salat is included in "manasik". Let's see the quranic evidence
Firstly, 2127-128 does not have "salat" in its context.
Secondly,
6162 Say "My salat, and my "nusuk", and my life, and my death, are all to the god, lord of the worlds."
As you can clearly see, "salat" is mentioned separately from "nusuk" in this sign.
This lends even more weight to the notion that "salat" is more of a "turning towards" or "communication" with the creator, and "nusuk" are ways to achieve physical, mental, spiritual progress which we learn as a result of "salat"/turning towards/communication with the creator.
Salat is not a unique concept limited to al-quran. People have been performing salat since the dawn of mankind. Different people in the world have different ways of performing salat. For example
For the believers, please study the quranic way from al-quran.
For Buddhists the turning towards/communication is through meditation.
For spiritualists it is through channeling, astral projection etc.
Salat of Aborigines (see pictures) http//www.gondwananet.com/aboriginal-religion.htmlYou might call Aborigines mushrikeen, but in their own way they are performing salat to the creator.
WHATEVER works for you depending upon your belief system should be perfectly acceptable.
May the creator bless you.
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The word you designate as rites in the quoted passage does not necessarily
mean that. It has other lexical meanings as well such as piety and "to apply
oneself" as commitment as well as servitude and acts such as that. Those
are also the kind of "rituals" we are supposed to do.Salaam
Peace Man of Faith,
What is done with rites except apply yourself/commitment, which involves servitude?
Peace hawk99,
Thus "mansak" can also mean "an act of piety or devotion/servitude to
the creator" which fits perfectly in 2128.2128 Our lord, make us muslims to you and from our descendants a muslim
nation to you. And show us our acts of piety/servitude/devotion
and accept our repentance ......May the creator bless you.
Peace truthseeker11
I understand your corrections, the translations are not the point,
you did not answer my question.What are the rites or " our acts of piety/servitude/devotion"
given to Ibrahim?May God bless you all
peace
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Peace hawk99,
This is off-topic.
I think the more important question would be what are the acts of devotion/servitude/piety given to you. When you help others and do good deeds, you are serving the creator.
Slaughtering an animal and feeding it to the poor is a nusuk also, as is mentioning the name of the creator over the meat.
Please study al-quran, you should find your answer there.
peace
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Peace hawk99,
This is off-topic.
I think the more important question would be what are the acts of devotion/servitude/piety given to you.
When you help others and do good deeds, you are serving the creator.
Please study al-quran, you should find your answer there.
peace
Peace truthseeker11
I don't think my question is off topic, but a refusal to answer a relevant
question on your part, therefore we have reached an impasse.handshake
God bless you
peace
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Peace hawk99,
Your question has nothing to do with what salat is as I have already proved it to you so yes it became off-topic after that. Secondly, I hadn't finished editing my post. Thirdly, I cannot do your homework for you (even though I did some of it ).
May the creator bless you too,
handshake
peace
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Peace hawk99,
Your question has nothing to do with what salat
I hadn't finished editing my post
Thirdly, I cannot do your homework for you (even though I did some of it )).peace
Peace truthseeker11
Indeed my question has to do with salat. "I hadn't finished editing my post" of course
Thirdly, I cannot do your homework for you (even though I did some of it )).
nopeYour condescending attitude makes you superior only in your mind!
God bless you
peace
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Hawk99,
The Arabic refers to service done for GOD and does not refer to a ritualistic practice repeated on a regular basis of which GOD has no need or want for. Hence it cannot be service since it is not of any use to GOD for GOD has no ego huge as a mountain to satisfy and the concept of duty of praying to glorify GOD is a human idea that GOD can be affected by such meaningless practice which is basically just words for someone/something that does not need it or can be emotionally affected by it and you cannot sweet talk GOD.
What counts is the good that you do honoring GOD.
As for spiritual growth there are many methods and repeating/parroting a phrase to themselves several times per day helps some people, but the one benefited is the parrot who (hopefully) remembers in his everyday life what he parrots. The person could as well quietly sit and contemplate his conduct and life situations without uttering a word in some kind of meditation. That is up to the person.
But GOD does need none of it and GOD knows what you need or want to convey before you even opened up your mouth. And if you are grateful then GOD sure knows it already. Silent contemplation or repeated recital is a personal choice. The purpose is to make YOU have a realization of yourself in what you utter or think to do. The word 'amen' refers to just that, realization. What you utter with your mouth and do not do is not 'amen', thus a person cannot be 'amen b'Allah' merely by saying it, but they must realize themselves in what they claim or they are a hypocrite. Are not the semitic languages ingenious?
Salaam
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Peace everyone,
Peace truthseeker11
Indeed my question has to do with salat. "I hadn't finished editing my post" of course
Thirdly, I cannot do your homework for you (even though I did some of it )).
nopeYour condescending attitude makes you superior only in your mind!
God bless you
peace
This attitude is what I get for genuinely trying to help someone. I spent time, did lot of research, unselfishly for someone. I could have gone to the beach on my day off.
Makes me not want to help anyone else.
Peace
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peace hicham9,
QA l-qwd (د lit. means the remains not foundations . . .
Those before them have schemed, but God came at their building from the remains, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.
Seems like your understanding fails a Quran cross-reference, albeit the above is commonly taken as a metaphor.
peace t11,
It may be interesting to note 1626 states "came at their building min/FROM the Q3d" and 2127 states "raised the Q3d min/FROM the bayt" - indicating incompatibility with the traditional understanding of "bayt" as a building.
In other words - traditional understanding
1626 - a building has existing Q3d
2127 - Q3d raised from bayt (which is a building) thus already has existing Q3dPerhaps this explains the forced rendering of "min"=of.
I disagree with you however when it comes to the meaning of "bayt" in these verses
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html -
SLM @Wakas,
Those before them sure did plot,
then, G-D came (at) their buildings from the remains
so, the roof fell upon them from above them
and the punishment overtook them from whence they did not perceive
QA l-qwd () lit. means the remains qd ~ to sit, or remain (behind)] not foundations . . .
Seems like your understanding fails a Quran cross-reference, albeit the above is commonly taken as a metaphor.
I'm not sure about that ... one thing for sure, foundations doesn't fit in 2460!
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Peace Wakas,
Very interesting and excellent observation!
Balad = bayt does make sense according to the quranic cross-reference, and balad does fall within the category of a physical place of shelter or bayt. It strengthens the meaning of kaaba as base.
- How would you explain Abraham raising the foundations from a land/town? What does that mean?
- I noticed you used both from/of in your translation of 2127. Why is that?
As a side note I just noticed you used the same translation of nusuk as act of servitude/devotion that Man of Faith and I arrived at earlier today, rather than rite.
May the creator bless you.
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Hawk99,
The Arabic refers to service done for GOD and does not refer to a ritualistic practice repeated on a regular basis of which GOD has no need or want for. Hence it cannot be service since it is not of any use to GOD for GOD has no ego huge as a mountain to satisfy and the concept of duty of praying to glorify GOD is a human idea that GOD can be affected by such meaningless practice which is basically just words for someone/something that does not need it or can be emotionally affected by it and you cannot sweet talk GOD.
What counts is the good that you do honoring GOD.
As for spiritual growth there are many methods and repeating/parroting a phrase to themselves several times per day helps some people, but the one benefited is the parrot who (hopefully) remembers in his everyday life what he parrots. The person could as well quietly sit and contemplate his conduct and life situations without uttering a word in some kind of meditation. That is up to the person.
But GOD does need none of it and GOD knows what you need or want to convey before you even opened up your mouth. And if you are grateful then GOD sure knows it already. Silent contemplation or repeated recital is a personal choice. The purpose is to make YOU have a realization of yourself in what you utter or think to do. The word 'amen' refers to just that, realization. What you utter with your mouth and do not do is not 'amen', thus a person cannot be 'amen b'Allah' merely by saying it, but they must realize themselves in what they claim or they are a hypocrite. Are not the semitic languages ingenious?
Salaam
Peace Man of Faith
Your position and understanding leaves a lot to be desired.
Peace everyone,
This attitude is what I get for genuinely trying to help someone. I spent time, did lot of research, unselfishly for someone. I could have gone to the beach on my day off.
Makes me not want to help anyone else.
Peace
Peace truthseeker11
I apologize for my terseness, please keep teaching.
I did not ask you for the meaning of words, I asked you and MOFPeace truthseeker11
What are the rites or " our acts of piety/servitude/devotion"
given to Ibrahim?If you have an answer give it, if not, say so
P.s. It does have something to do with salat.I don't remember who gave us this website, but thanks.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Qaf-Ayn-Dal = to sit down, remain behind, to hold back, to tarry, lie in wait,
sit still, remain unmoved, desist, abstain, refrain, lurk in ambush, set snares,
neglect, act of sitting, foundations/bases, women who are past child bearing age,
elderly spinsters past child bearing age, one who sits at home, one who sits still,
seat or place of sitting, station, encampment.qa'ada vb. (I) - perf. act. 3168, 990,
impf. act. 4140, 668, 716, 786, 1722, 1729, 729,
impv. 95, 946, 983,
n. vb. 3191, 4103, 983,
pcple. act. (qa'id, pl. qu'ud) 495, 524, 946, 986, 1012, 856,maq'ad n.m. (pl. maqa'id) 3121, 981, 5455, 729,
qa'id n.compound. (adj.) 5017,
qawa'id n.f. (pl. of qa'idah) 2127, 1626, 2460
God bless
peace
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Peace hawk99,
No problem handshake
I think it was slaughtering the animals at the time of hajj and mentioning the creator's name on them, but that is not mentioned with Ibrahim so I'm not sure. I made the connection because hajj is mentioned in context of Ibrahim, and nusuk is mentioned in context of Ibrahim and explained in context of hajj. I haven't researched all the occurrences of Ibrahim one by one yet because there are soooo many! Let me know if you find out anything.
If all those verses are examined one by one and we cannot find what nusuk were shown to Ibrahim then maybe it is not important what nusuk were shown to him. That's why I said earlier we should focus on what nusuk are for us.
I apologize for saying I cannot do your homework. It's just that there are so many Ibrahim verses!
6162 proves salat and nusuk are different things.
The website was created by Wakas, and for that reason alone he has a very high station (maqam) and tremendous respect in my eyes.
My the creator bless you.
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Hawk99,
Is that so? I feel it is should be very clear and comprehensive answering many questions. But you always parrot the same reply at me regardless of how comprehensive my research is.
But you have a mind sold to the ancient sectarian account of an islam filled with Pagan rituals. It is not so.
If you think GOD needs your scheduled prayer so go on and continue the activity. I just feel you have missed something. You need constant contact with GOD and not some lame sequence of empty words which GOD knows you mean or not mean before you even opened up your mouth. It is not a man, a human king, you stand before.
I have already pointed out the fallacy of the praying birds and there is more. And do you really think that the first condition GOD asks for to Moses and more important than he being upright and following the decree is upholding a contact prayer? You are surely wholly, are you?
Salaam
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QA l-qwd () lit. means the remains not foundations . . .
Seems like your understanding fails a Quran cross-reference, albeit the above is commonly taken as a metaphor.
I'm not sure about that ... one thing for sure, foundations doesn't fit in 2460!
In modern-day Standard Arabic qidah (pl. qawid) is used in the sense of a rule, principle, or simply a fundament ... This later meaning, I concede, is more conceivable as a denotation of QA qwd (in 2127 & 1626) than my first suggestion (the remains).
In 2460, however l-qwd () is an adj., who's primary meaning I understand as the remaining X's from the central semitic root qd ~ to sit, or remain (behind) ...
So, after giving it a bit of contemplation,
my Current Understanding of QA l-qwd changes as follows002127004 (noun)
CU And as Abrahm hoisteth the fundaments of the Temple, and Imal , (saying) "Our Master, accept from us, for Thou art The knowledgeable Hearer"
016026010 (noun)
CU Those before them sure did plot. Then, G-D overtook their buildings from the fundaments; thus the roof above them fall over them. And the punishment overtook them from whence they did not estimate.
024060001 (adjective)
CU and the remnants of the women who anticipate no marriage , there is no taint upon them be it they lay (aside) their garments without flaunting with adornment; and to abstain is better for them. And G-D is a Knowledgeable Hearer.
Ps. Notably, a building's fundaments are chiefly what remains of it (when destroyed or decayed by time).
SLM
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peace t11,
- How would you explain Abraham raising the foundations from a land/town? What does that mean?
- I noticed you used both from/of in your translation of 2127. Why is that?
Re 2)
To my knowledge "min" can theoretically mean "of" or "from" and since I did not study Quran in detail with regard to this point and/or my knowledge of Arabic is not extensive enough to rule out "of" completely, I didn't. I tend to be cautious in my approach hence left both options in. However, I just recalled my following note'An Introduction to Classical and Koranic Arabic' by W.M. Thackston
http//islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/quran/thackston_arabic.pdf
p7
Quote "min(a) (+genitive) from/among/amongst/in (in a partitive sense)"'A Grammar of Classical Arabic' by Wolfdietrich Fischer
https//ia600806.us.archive.org/22/items/AGrammarOfClassicalArabic/AGrammarOfClassicalArabic.pdf
p90
Quote "If the sense is partitive, it is combined with the dependent genitive by min"
p160
Quote "In combination with terms that denote place and time, min refers to a certain segment of the place or time, e.g. min al-layli 'in a part of the night""bayti" in "alqawaAAida mina albayti" in 2127 is in the genitive construction, thus until proven otherwise I will take "min" here in the partitive sense.
So, that takes us to your question, Re 1)
Q3d can mean physical foundations/groundworks/bases (e.g. of a structure) but also how it is used in English, e.g. "he built his affair on a firm foundation" - Lane's Lexicon cites this example. So it seems there are some possibilities."...raising the foundations from/of the shelter..."
"...raising the foundations in a part of the shelter..."I would imagine this could refer to either
building a town's necessary basic structures, e.g. dwellings, communal/governing facilities, public areas for congregation, security, water wells/systems, enlarging it etc.
or
brought about various founding principles. This could be connected with "millat Abraham" mentioned later in 2130.
