Fitna/Test/Trial (54:27, 74:31, 17:60..) ?
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Peace brother Zlatan, sister Marie, all,
here are some other translations of the word fitnah from the dictionaries i have acces to
excuse
confusion
torment
torture
punishement
fascination
intrigueI think that we need to ask ourselves, what is a practical example of a "fitna(t)".
For example, we are told that our money and children are "fitna(t)". This is an example that all of us can relate to.
People get obsessed with growing and counting money and it becomes like an addiction. Similarly, people get obsessed with their children and spoil them, etc.
Thus, as far as worldly matters, I see fitna(t) as something people get obsessed with.
The fitna of counting 19 is emperically verifiable as we see those afflicted by it obsessed with counting 19 everywhere.
Also, here are few different readings and /or meanings of the word "`&iddat(h)" ...
3ida(t) occurs in
946, 936, 937, 3349, 2184-185, 1822, 651, 654, 74313349 makes it clear that the meaning of "3D(t)" is clearly not "number"
since the women that we divorce do not owe us a "number" but they owe usa "count". They have to count three menstrual cycles. This doesn't mean that women only have three menstrual cycles or that they only get three in a year. What this means is that out of the number/3DD/ of
menstrual cycles from the time of divorce, they only owe us the
count/3D(t)/ of three.651 talks about being accurate with the count/3D(t)/ . There is
nothing accurate or inaccurate about any number. Accuracy becomes an
issue only when there is measurement (i.e. counting). So once again, we
see that 3D(t)/ is what we measure/count out of a larger
population (see 936-37, 651-4) or estimate from possible alternatives
(see 1822).Notice the same word used in 946 to indicate what we count in
preparation for battle. For example, we prepare by counting supplies
based on the military objective. We don't just get any absolute number
of supplies.Notice that the same word is used in 7431 to indicate that the
"fitna(t)"/trial is in counting 19 and not in the number 19 itself.
There is no trial inherent in any abstract number but there is trial in
our actions.I hope this helps and I apologize for the late response but in the coming few months I will not be as active on the forum as I have a busy travel schedule.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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peace Marie, all
Peace Zlatan,
The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....
You are right, both "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" and "and "We have made their AAiddat to be a fitna" are for those who have rejected...
yes, i agree, but what i was thinking of is that others functions increasing in faith, searching for or attaining conviction etc that comes after li might build not solely upon (or result from) malaikah being wardens of the fire and u/iddatuhum being nothing but a fitnah but rather(or additionaly) upon some pivotal point stated before in the chapter....please allow me to remind you once again to check, if you havent checked it yet, this is very important, how 5141 and 43 rely or build upon the pivotal statement in 5137 and not to sentences or verses that come directly before them...(imo there are plenty of such constructions in the book....)
OK I see what you mean, thanks for the clarification.
As you stated, there are several of such constructions in the great reading. Your assumption is plausible but we can find other verses where li/to/in order/that" (2228 ) is a result from what is said in 2228. This is also the case for 202-3-
We have not bestowed upon you this Qur'an to cause you any hardship.
Ma anzalna AAalayka alqur-ana litashqa -
But as a Reminder to the reverent, those who stand in awe of the Creator.
Illa tathkiratan liman yakhsha
In the same manner the other part of 7431, starting from li/that/in order to be convinced(or search for conviction) those who are given the book etc... build upon or rely upon some pivotal point stated before..... maybe on the verse that mentions saqar or that describes it as lawwahatun this particularly due to certain meanings of lawwahatun ...it comes from verb laha ..it can mean(among other meanings) to shine, to flash, to glimmer, to sparkle, to shimmer; to appear to (imo it may imply giving signals, threating,
speakingto human)......Muhamad Asad translate it as making all truth visible to mortal.....(isnt it then logical that hell making all truth visible is increasing faith or gives conviction or incites to search for it...)Or it build upon 742 come out and warn-he is to warn us with the ayats/messages of The God then some increase in faith and/or convince and others are being exposed as bad people...
I see li/that/in order to be convinced in 7431 in the same way than li in 2228 and 202-3, IMHO.
The article hiya; feminine refers to saqar/the fire in wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari / And it is but a reminder for mankind (7431). Saqar in the same way than the fire we trike out (5671-74) is a reminder for us..
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Have you noted the fire you kindle?
Afaraaytumu alnnara allatee tooroona -
Did you establish its tree, or was it We who established it?
Aantum ansha/tum shajarataha am nahnualmunshi-oona -
We rendered it (feminine)a reminder, and a useful tool for the users.
Nahnu jaAAalnaha(feminine) tathkiratan wamataAAan lilmuqweena -
You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.
Fasabbih biismi rabbika alAAatheemi
There are several reminders in the Reminder; the Reading.
The retribution for the believers and the rejectors is the absolute truth and should grant us certainty. We can see a similar situation in the chapter 96
.
5692. But if he is one of the deniers, the strayers.
5693. Then an abode of boiling water.
5694. And a burning in Hell.
5695. This is the absolute truth.
5696. You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.what God want(or could want) with mathal like this is not a question of intelectual inquiry but of being prevented from understanding it or ridiculing....
see also 82 and 20113 and 132 to see how the convinction is attained and faith increasedAgree, I think there are several reminders and subjects which refer to the certainty inside the Reading.
Peace
MarieBasicaly I agree, nice thinking, its so good to see someone quoting a lot of verses and allowing The God to explain His messages....
p.s.
I was just pointing out to more potential roads leading to the same direction..... basically it boils down to the same...
Peace, Zlatan
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The article hiya; feminine refers to saqar/the fire in wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari / And it is but a reminder for mankind (7431). Saqar in the same way than the fire we trike out (5671-74) is a reminder for us..
nice analysis... we have 3 verses containing to/for mankind
lawahatun lil bashar/mankind 7429
but a reminder for mankind 7431
one of the greatest 7435
admonition to mankind 7436
hell promised to the rejecters is main focus and message of the passage
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Peace Nadia, all
Peace Marie,
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Meaning an acceptance of a sign as present, thats all.
I don't know what it proves for me, or what benefit it has for me in particular as i'm still studying both sides...I asked this question on the basis that there are many people who believe in some kind of pattern in the reading, of a number, that does not appear to be random and for them it increases their faith...these particular people do not disbelieve in any part of the reading, but their faith increases all the same...for them it's just another one of God's signs like the sun rising.
I would like to know what your interpretation says on the behalf of people like them who do not reject any part of the reading...where do they stand in this trial?
By the way, not everyone will be satisfied with anothers explanation of what it proves for them...as we are all different and see things differently, as long as they increase in faith and don't reject the message, i don't see what the issue would be...Would like your observations please )
Nadia
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Under the water there are following of conjectures, relying on man made sources besides The God
s guidance, placing our words into The Almightys, speaking of The God what is not true, misunderstanding and misinterpreting Him, sectarianism( and all that it carries!), and a lot of distrust to the God`s ayats/messages/sayings, that is, not really believing in what is said in the great reading, but merely paying the lip service to it.....The rejection of 9128-9 is a kind of physical or theoretical rejection of the God
s sayings...it is what is most obvious and can be noted by anybody and/or at the first sight...BUT under the water is what matters the most...that is, accepting of the code requires the practical or actual neglect or rejection of a lot of The Gods messages, precepts, morals and sayings...it is to reject The God`s teaching in general....Many people ask, "but what if I really see those patterns and they only convince me and increse my faith in Quran?"
Let me try to illustrate this fallacy with the following example...
?And we are sending down from this reading that that is a remedy and mercy to the believers/faithful, while it increases the wrongdoers nothing but loss/degradation....?1782
Now, we have some people who, having neurotic symptoms or serious problems or some worries in their life, BASED ON THIS VERSE take pages of the great reading, sink it the down in the water or recite it over the water, then they drink it believing they will get better due to the remedy they have applied...or they hang the pages of the great reading around they neck or put it under the pillow...and guess what, they sometimes indeed do get better...And it even increases their faith...
Let us reflect on this ....is the faith really incresed or they have decieved themselves....true, a certain faith has been increased, but allow me to ask, which faith?
The faith in THE READING OF THE ULAMA, mulahs, and priests who interpret the verses the way these people have applied it....surely not in the reading of The God...
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace brother Zlatan, sister Marie, all,
I think that we need to ask ourselves, what is a practical example of a "fitna(t)".
For example, we are told that our money and children are "fitna(t)". This is an example that all of us can relate to.
People get obsessed with growing and counting money and it becomes like an addiction. Similarly, people get obsessed with their children and spoil them, etc.
Thus, as far as worldly matters, I see fitna(t) as something people get obsessed with.
This is a completely different view from the 'fleeing' that you advocated before regarding 'fitnah'. You were saying that one needs to flee a fitnah when it was pointed out that 292-3 state that everyone will be put to "fitnah" to test their faith.
This reference to
6415 Your money and children are a test, and GOD possesses a great recompense.
is a good one. It shows that these are 'fitnah' and obviously one cannot flee these or abandon them.
One needs to give them their due consideration and position. That's all that I've been saying all along wheras the the team with Marie, Zlatan, and yourself are advocating the abandoning of this.
Here's another verse that places this meaning into context
639 O you who believe, do not be distracted by your money and your children from remembering GOD. Those who do this are the losers.
So the objects of the test can indeed become a distraction to remembering God; but it is not a reason to deny that the count of 19 is a sign.
The fitna of counting 19 is emperically verifiable as we see those afflicted by it obsessed with counting 19 everywhere.
3ida(t) occurs in
946, 936, 937, 3349, 2184-185, 1822, 651, 654, 74313349 makes it clear that the meaning of "3D(t)" is clearly not "number"
since the women that we divorce do not owe us a "number" but they owe usa "count". They have to count three menstrual cycles. This doesn't mean that women only have three menstrual cycles or that they only get three in a year. What this means is that out of the number/3DD/ of
menstrual cycles from the time of divorce, they only owe us the
count/3D(t)/ of three.651 talks about being accurate with the count/3D(t)/ . There is
nothing accurate or inaccurate about any number. Accuracy becomes an
issue only when there is measurement (i.e. counting). So once again, we
see that 3D(t)/ is what we measure/count out of a larger
population (see 936-37, 651-4) or estimate from possible alternatives
(see 1822).Notice the same word used in 946 to indicate what we count in
preparation for battle. For example, we prepare by counting supplies
based on the military objective. We don't just get any absolute number
of supplies.Notice that the same word is used in 7431 to indicate that the
"fitna(t)"/trial is in counting 19 and not in the number 19 itself.
There is no trial inherent in any abstract number but there is trial in
our actions.It is obvious that the sign of 19 has to do with counts; no one denies that. But just like in the verses it is the completed count which is the issue.
It is the completed count of THREE periods, not the counting itself that is an issue.
Moreover I think that this in fact strengthens the case that whatever it is with 19/nineteen - it involves a count - and that is what is important. So yes it is not some mystical faith in a number 19 that 'counts' (pardon the pun), but the count of it (in the Koran) which is the sign.
Regards.
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Peace Zaltan & All,
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Why the insistence to link the rejection of 9128-129 with 19?
I have found this to be a common theme in this thread when it is totally biased and based on the 'human' research of Rashad.
19 does not reject 9128-129, but Rashad's research did (please note the difference between the two).
Secondly, your example of the people who believe in mumbo jumbo by placing the text in water or around their neck is also unrelated to 19.
Finally, I want your answer on the following question
- Reviewing the Hafs & Warsh, we find that the Basmalla in Chapter 1 is treated differently than the other chapters...Which version (if any) is 'more correct'? Or do you believe that they are both inspired by God?
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
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Peace Layth all
Peace Zaltan & All,
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Why the insistence to link the rejection of 9128-129 with 19?
I am not insisting to link it, on contrary, i would actually like that people analyse it as separate issues....the rejection of 9128-129 was implied in the question of Nadia...that s why i have mentioned it....she has been asking/inquiring about such people like you, who believe in the code, but not in the rejection of 9128-9....then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19.... with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention....
this was my stance several years now...
see for example the thread that i have initiated on this topic named
Deletion of 9/128,129 is only a drop in the dark code ocean
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2006
I have found this to be a common theme in this thread when it is totally biased and based on the 'human' research of Rashad.
19 does not reject 9128-129, but Rashad's research did (please note the difference between the two).
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
Secondly, your example of the people who believe in mumbo jumbo by placing the text in water or around their neck is also unrelated to 19.
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith....both phenomenons are mumbo-jumbo..... its just that you are modernistically inclined and thus numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo doesnt looks like mumbo-jumbo to you...but both are highly subjective and based on misundrestanding and misinterpreting what is stated in the great reading... both are result of man-made interpretation of the book of The God thus injuring The God`s exclusive right to interpret and explain His sayings....
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Finally, I want your answer on the following question
- Reviewing the Hafs & Warsh, we find that the Basmalla in Chapter 1 is treated differently than the other chapters...Which version (if any) is 'more correct'? Or do you believe that they are both inspired by God?
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
Can you be more specific, i am not sure what you are trying to say here...are you claiming there are proofs of the code being inserted that are not discovered yet, but are only propheciesed in 7430-35?
best wishes,
Zlatan
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Peace Truth,
This is a completely different view from the 'fleeing' that you advocated before regarding 'fitnah'. You were saying that one needs to flee a fitnah when it was pointed out that 292-3 state that everyone will be put to "fitnah" to test their faith.
This reference to
6415 Your money and children are a test, and GOD possesses a great recompense.
is a good one. It shows that these are 'fitnah' and obviously one cannot flee these or abandon them.
You are right, no one should flee them, but one should not get obsessed with them or his money.
One needs to give them their due consideration and position. That's all that I've been saying all along wheras the the team with Marie, Zlatan, and yourself are advocating the abandoning of this.
The consideration and position of counting 19 is that it is a "fitna" NOT a "ayat/sign" as you advocate.
Here's another verse that places this meaning into context
639 O you who believe, do not be distracted by your money and your children from remembering GOD. Those who do this are the losers.
So the objects of the test can indeed become a distraction to remembering God; but it is not a reason to deny that the count of 19 is a sign.
The only reason to deny it as a sign is that it is NEVER described as a sign/"ayat" in the great reading.
Moreover I think that this in fact strengthens the case that whatever it is with 19/nineteen - it involves a count - and that is what is important. So yes it is not some mystical faith in a number 19 that 'counts' (pardon the pun), but the count of it (in the Koran) which is the sign.
The underlined is mystical faith because it is not based on the reality in the great reading. Where is the count of 19 described as a "sign/ayat" in the great reading? NOWHERE.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Zaltan,
then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19
Please give examples...I accept from my research that there is a 19 related design in the Scripture...I have not however ever heard that this design causes the rejection of 'other ayats/messages' as you have stated.
with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention.
Iron was sent down as a mercy from God to help mankind (5725)...Yet man abused this most precious of substances to create weapons of destruction and mayhem...It is not 'Iron' that is evil or from the devil, but what man has made of it is.
this was my stance several years now...
Our stances should be made based on 'truth'...Not simply because we have believed or accepted such a way for years or even decades.
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
LOL...I would be very worried if 19 or any other number were 'speaking to me'
The tool of '19' is extremely effective in identifying where potential issues of human error/manipulation in the text/design of the Scripture may be found...We have seen the example of 'BaSta' but also the examples of 'Sinwan' and a few other words that were misspelled in later editions of the text.
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith
Finding spelling errors in the text is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
Finding miscounts of the verses is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
You may 'chose' to ignore that these things have ever happened and believe that are comming from the realm of the 'mumbo jumbo' while in-fact the evidence is there for any who wish to see.
....both phenomenons are mumbo-jumbo..... its just that you are modernistically inclined and thus numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo doesnt looks like mumbo-jumbo to you...but both are highly subjective and based on misundrestanding and misinterpreting what is stated in the great reading.
Did I imagine Hafs & Warsh variation?
I wish I did and this was all a bad dream...But the reality is that the issue is there and it is bigger than being waved away into obsecurity.
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Is the Muhkam and the Mutashabih not both from God?
We are clearly permitted to study both, however the interpretation of one is more complex/deeper than the interpretation of the other (hence more mistakes may occur in the reading/tauweel).
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
See my post to Ayman on the subject of the 'verse stops'. The issue is not 'man-made' but is most relevant since the Scripture was revealed in verse format and then collected in its current format...
You are saying that we do not need to kown how the original structure looked like...I am of the opinoin that we do.
You are saying we do not need to worry about the meaning changes (like 51 in Hafs & Warsh)... I am of the opinoin that we do.
You are saying we do not need to worry about the word changes or spelling changes...I am of the opinoin that we do.
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
We have now the knowledge of the changes and the tool to measure these changes...To ignore such a blessing is to ignore the gift we are given.
To have come so far and then turn back is the worse thing we can do.
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Recall my example of the 'Iron'...It is only a Trojan horse if you want it to be.
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
Can you be more specific, i am not sure what you are trying to say here...are you claiming there are proofs of the code being inserted that are not discovered yet, but are only propheciesed in 7430-35?
I am saying that we will never have full knwoledge as that feature rests with God and God only...
We can only strive to learn and not be decieved into thinking that this is the end to it all or that this is the limit of the knowledge...
The scripture may be finite in its words, but it is infinate in its content.
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Peace Layth
this debate will lead to nowhere if you put in my mouth what i was not saying at all... and this is repeating from post to post now...
Peace Zaltan,
then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19
Please give examples...I accept from my research that there is a 19 related design in the Scripture...I have not however ever heard that this design causes the rejection of 'other ayats/messages' as you have stated.
I do not say at all that there is such a design in the scripture....what i was saying is that if one is to accept existence of Code 19(the invented/imagined code based on misinterpretation of the book`s sayings, subjective perceptions and failing to aplly the basics of the science of statistics) one must come into contradiction with other ayats/messages of the book....more simply said, if one claim the code is propheciesed in some verses of the book one is contradicting the very messages of the book.....
Here`s an example...though i have already cited it several times in this thread i think...
We know The God is the one who explain his ayats/messages/words/sayings...we see this process when we cross reference the sayings of the book...
now, which decisive/precise/explicit sayings of the book you have used to explain the hyper-ambiguous passage 7430-35?
None....and thats what i was saying....why you havent brought some more decisive sayings to explain the passage? why you didnt cross referenced it? Why you havent allowed The God to speak? And why you have brought your personal subjective man-made interpretation instead?(which is btw based on ignorance or not apllying the basics of the science of statistics)...you want me to accept your interpretation like the traditionalists accept their ulama`s interpretations?...With the behaviour described above you are proving that you do not believe that the God is the one who explains...and particularly that He is doing it by other of His words....
Do code 19 believers believe in this messages/ayats/signs?
7519 it is upon Us to explain it
20114 do not be haste with the reading before its revelation to you is finished, and say my lord increase to me the knowledge
2189 Thus The God explain His ayats/signs/messages to men in order that they may guard themsleves
And to the divorced women belongs recompense as an obligation upon
the righteous. Thus The God explains His ayats/signs/messages to
you in order that you may understand.---" 2241-242"Does anyone of you like that he have a garden with palm trees and
grapevines, and rivers flowing beneath it, and in it for him are all
kinds of fruits, then he is afflicted with old age and his progeny is
weak, and a whirlwind with fire strikes it and it all burns? ----It is
thus that God makes clear explains for you the ayats/signs/messages that you may reflect----" 2266And those who rejected said "If only the Quran was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly. And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation. (2532-3 FM)
What is used to explain the passage are man-made sayings of Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Abdullah Arik etc...and not other passages or The God`s sayings, His exclusive representative....
The God havent said there is the code embeded in the book, but Rashad has said it...
The God havent said the counts of the initials/letters should be 19 divisible(and true they are not except for a few counts), but Rashad, Edip and & co. have said it
I am asking you now who do we follow? And who is our lord and superior, The God or Edip and Rashad?
Now explain to me how are you any better from those who interpret obey the messenger as obeying the sayings of Muhamad besides the great reading/quran??
They too rush to interpret the verse (as you rush to interpret 7430-35)and study it in isolation using man made writings ....or even worse, explaining it with other even more ambiguous sayings to whome they have (again!) attached their man-made meanings....just like you...
and thats what i was saying....what you want me to do is to accept your interpretation as divine... but why should I? .. havent you said none of us have an absolute knowledge....why should i accept your interpretation and preffer it to the interpretation of the one who has an absolute knowledge....
If you admit that you have no absolute knowledge, how do you know that that 19 INdivisibility is not there for a higher purpose....you are only conjecturing when you claim they should be all 19 divisible and we are to correct the scriptur based on such a criterium...
I remember discussing the numerology thing with you at rope forum or FM emailing list and you wasnt having a statistical approach but a subjective one....judging from this post things havent changed....you are time and again proving that the faith in the code is not science based but on contrary, based on neglecting the true science....
with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention.
Iron was sent down as a mercy from God to help mankind (5725)...Yet man abused this most precious of substances to create weapons of destruction and mayhem...It is not 'Iron' that is evil or from the devil, but what man has made of it is.
yes but the God have said he sent the iron help the mankind...i cant remember He has said that He send the code to help mankind as well....besides i dont denie there might be some use out of this code...one of them might be to expose or mislead disbelievers/hypocretes....
this was my stance several years now...
Our stances should be made based on 'truth'...Not simply because we have believed or accepted such a way for years or even decades.
Have I said so?
I have mentioned that this was my stance by years now in order to prove that i realy believe that rejection of 9/128-9 is a minor issue and that that being my stance is not a quickly invented excuse...can you please be more careful next time not to put your words into my mouth Layth...
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
LOL...I would be very worried if 19 or any other number were 'speaking to me'
so basically you are admiting that you are only conjecturing what to accept and what to reject....the counts do not speak... it is you who have intepreted them to mean what you want them to mean...just like you intepret my words and even the words of The Almighty to suit your purposes......
The tool of '19' is extremely effective in identifying where potential issues of human error/manipulation in the text/design of the Scripture may be found...We have seen the example of 'BaSta' but also the examples of 'Sinwan' and a few other words that were misspelled in later editions of the text.
please show me say a few examples where the code can help to resolve say hafs - warsh differences?
and explain how do you, as you say, being void of possesion of absolute knowledge, know that The God have intended the counts to be 19 divisible? How do you know that there is not a higher purpose to 19 indivisible counts? Maybe there is even another 19 divisible pattern only ona higher level? see how your position is a very subjective one...at the end of the day who told you 19 divisibility is a tool? he must be your god since you claim it a divine tool? tell me who is he?
It is interesting to remember the History of the code ..... people in the beggining(having made a mistake in counting of sad by one) have claimed that unual spelling(sad instead of sin) is a divinely inspired error to fit 19 divisible count...this is a win-win situation and there s no way code 19 can loose...if there`s 19 divisibility we say, you see it is divinely preserved if theres not you correct it and then you say, you see its is divinely preserved...
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith
Finding spelling errors in the text is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
what evidence dear Layth you have? The evidence is actually saying that prevailing number of counts is not 19 divisible...maybe you can make them all 19 divisible if you are to run all over the word finding all different scripts picking from each whatever 19 divisible you can find there, and then composing a script which will have all counts 19 divisible...but then it wont be divine, but man made code....due to differences in dialect or modes of recording the scripts will normaly differ in counts......this way you can make up the code based on any number you want....
Finding miscounts of the verses is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
cant believe you are serious? tell me how do you know what was original number of verses? and how do you know it must be 19 divisible? who told you this...? and who told you these verses or sentences separated by verse sepatrators are divinely inspired? the separation of the scripture is clearly man made and they are irrelevent....
You may 'chose' to ignore that these things have ever happened and believe that are comming from the realm of the 'mumbo jumbo' while in-fact the evidence is there for any who wish to see.
how man verses there is or how many initals there is is totally irrelevant fact and clearly mumbo-jumbo that is nicely decorated to mislead from the real issues
Did I imagine Hafs & Warsh variation?
who told you code 19 will help differentiate between hafs and warsh...?besides the difference between hafs and warsh in regards of consonant basis is almost unexistent(few minute details having almost no bearing on the meaning7message)...how text shuold be vocalised will be clear from the context and by taking into consideration the general princliples of the book or those stated elswhere in the book....the sayings of the book are mutualy or self-explanatory....
I wish I did and this was all a bad dream...But the reality is that the issue is there and it is bigger than being waved away into obsecurity.
Yes, there is the issue of how the text should be vocalised ...but the judge can only be the context and cross references and not the code....cause the code is neither capable of it nor it has any authority at all...
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Is the Muhkam and the Mutashabih not both from God?
yes but muhkam/decisive/tightened/perfected/restrained are the basis/prototype/faoundation/referent place of the book not the mutashabihat/ambiguous/equivocal/indecisive sayings/words/messages
We are clearly permitted to study both, however the interpretation of one is more complex/deeper than the interpretation of the other (hence more mistakes may occur in the reading/tauweel).
yes but nowhere we are said to interopret it by man made sources subjective sayings... the interpreation is an exclusive right of The God...and perversed hearts are described as ones folowing the ambiguos/indecisive sayings and seeking excuse/discord/misleading/confusion and seeking to interpret it....
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
See my post to Ayman on the subject of the 'verse stops'. The issue is not 'man-made' but is most relevant since the Scripture was revealed in verse format and then collected in its current format...
verse stops? please how do you conclude there are any verse stops in the book of the God....and what difference it would make to the message? and that is all that counts....moreover I doubt there is any evidence that the book is consisting of verses at all.... do you think ayaat mean verses or some specific verses with separation points strictly defined? this is clearly not true...i wonder what evidences you might have fro what you are saying....please cite your evidences here or point to me the exact link to your arguments... there are plenty post and its hard to find that one to me....
You are saying that we do not need to kown how the original structure looked like...I am of the opinoin that we do.
Original meaning spelling should be found....but the original separation points or enumeration have no ANY relevance...
You are saying we do not need to worry about the meaning changes (like 51 in Hafs & Warsh)... I am of the opinoin that we do.
I have no warsh at my hands now( ill look it up when i will be at home GW) ... i have read it many times and cant remember any significant difference in the meaning of 51... whatever i think we should know the differences if theres any difference in the meaning
You are saying we do not need to worry about the word changes or spelling changes...I am of the opinoin that we do.
when the meaning is the same the spelling is irrelevant
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
We have now the knowledge of the changes and the tool to measure these changes...To ignore such a blessing is to ignore the gift we are given.
the knowledge you have and the tool you use is satanic not divinely inspired....
To have come so far and then turn back is the worse thing we can do.
allowe me to quote you
"Our stances should be made based on 'truth'...Not simply because we have believed or accepted such a way for years or even decades."
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Recall my example of the 'Iron'...It is only a Trojan horse if you want it to be.
the example is shown to be inadequate...The God has specifically mentioned iron as useful... but he hasnt mentioned any mathematico-numerical code, let alone code 19...(not that it cant be useful for misguiding the misbelievers.....and for learning a lesson to believers.....)
I am saying that we will never have full knwoledge as that feature rests with God and God only...
then stop paying lip service to it and allow The God to speak for Himself....
We can only strive to learn and not be decieved into thinking that this is the end to it all or that this is the limit of the knowledge...The scripture may be finite in its words, but it is infinate in its content.
you mean you`ll enrich the scripture with your subjective interpretations?
True, the words might have the levels of meanings but these levels can only be vertical(idolatry = bowing to statues/fearing other than God/following books other than that of The God/not upholding The God`s precepts/following desires etc ) and not of horisontal nature(obey the messenger =obey The Book of The God/obey additional revelation given Muhamad along with the great reading or quran/etc.).....cause then it would be a subjective inventing of what is not said or meant by God and following of a reading/quran other than this and it would open the doors for invention thousands of different contradicting doctrines all of them attributed to the God and it would inevitably led to sectarianism...we see this phenomenon at free minds discussions very well expounded.... it would even sanctioned the traditional understanding of obey the messenger ....we are not left to guess the meanings of the messages of the book.... they are already PRECISELY explained by The God....
bets wishes
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Peace all,
Just some rambling thoughts in my head today
I think the concept, the abstract, the message is more important than the concrete collection of numbers. The number, I've noticed, has increased pride in people, the same trait Iblis showed to God, and we all know what happened to him. But most importantly of all, I havent seen this number or code make people more righteous in the world. Think all the time and effort involved in counting words and numbers of the book could have been spent feeding a poor person or being righteous in some other way. I do agree we need to study the book and meditate on its meanings, but I fear this code 19 has become another idol, and has inflated egos.
One thing I've learnt this past year, since coming across FM is that Islam is pro-active, not made up of mindless rituals. Islam is life, doing good works for God. If God wanted us to get tangled up in numbers and codes, then the book might have been all numbers, or there would have been a direct commandments to find a code or something.
What is the urge driving people to look for this code though? I think this question is important. Sometimes I think people are looking for a code because then they would be able to tell the future in some convoluted way. This of course I dont agree with, I dont believe the book is prophetic in a specific manner, more in a general manner, i.e - 'this is how people are, this is what they do', not 'this country will do this, and something specific will happen in this year, etc'. Another reason for people to hunt for a code may be that it would confirm the book is Divine, but that would mean they arent believers in the first place, if they feel the need to confirm a code to prove this is God's book. If after learing the message you still dont believe it is a Divine and perfect system, a way of life, then you are not a believer.
The book is merely a reminder, a guide, and increases believers in their faith. To rejecters, it increases their non-faith, their aversion. Think about that. This book isnt meant to be used to convince others about Islam, its soley for believers to make them feel better, its a mercy from God, The Most Merciful. A creative method of bringing new followers to Islam, is that if believers follow the book the way they're meant to; their actions look good to non-believers, and thats how they become interested in Islam. A mathematical code isnt going to do this, as we can see.
Only God can guide people, or convince them to see the light, its not our job to do that, so I cant think of any other motivations for people to find a hidden code in this book. I understand a big motivation is to get closer to Islam, but like I said, the best way to do that is to follow the clear commandments of God, live righteously, submit to The Lord of the Worlds and His system.
Peace.
EDIT
When I read a chapter, I take it all in, taking verses alone isnt the way the book is meant to be read in my opinion. There are parts that are repeated throughout the book, but I think the main reason for that is that whenever you pick up the book, 90% of the time whatever chapter you decide to read, you'll get the main essence always, the main examples of Musa, etc.
So anyway, after reading chapter 74 again, here is what I'm thinking today, I'm thinking that the number 19 is not what is being referred to in this chapter, but the angels themselves. And they are not a test for us, but for people in hell. This chapter is primarily about hell, not Earth.
The beginning of the chapter leads up to hell, it talks about the non-believers for a while, before we finally reach a Scorching Heat. Upon it is nineteen, which may or may not be the angels mentioned in the next verse, it could be levels for all we know. When it does talk about the angels (beings of light, with no free will), it says God made them as a test for those who rejected. God made their number, as in God made them plural, as in more than one. God made angels as a test for rejecters within the Scorching Heat.
That may be the test. Rejecters will see angels hovering above them, and choose to believe in them or not, and will wonder "What did God mean with an example such as this?". The chapter talks about how people who were given the scripture and believed in Islam (maybe even Christians/Jews) will be increased in faith, and this is because they believed in angels all along.
Its a test for rejecters, "For any among you who wishes to advance or regress". Maybe this is about going through levels of hell? Eh, I dont know, I guess I'm stretching it alot now, but I do think its worth pondering whether angels are what is being speicified here as a test, not a number.
But even for believers it is important to know that "none know your Lord's soldiers/hosts except Him". This is another thing that points me towards thinking this chapter is about hell and angels, not numbers and Earth.
/end long ramble
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Peace Zaltan,
this debate will lead to nowhere if you put in my mouth what i was not saying at all... and this is repeating from post to post now...
To my knowledge I am using your words in a 'quote' most of the time...So unless you are not comfortable with what you have already said, I would not say that anyone is putitng words in your mouth.
I do not say at all that there is such a design in the scripture....what i was saying is that if one is to accept existence of Code 19(the invented/imagined code based on misinterpretation of the book`s sayings, subjective perceptions and failing to aplly the basics of the science of statistics) one must come into contradiction with other ayats/messages of the book....more simply said, if one claim the code is propheciesed in some verses of the book one is contradicting the very messages of the book.....
Not only have you failed to give an example of where this number would lead to rejection of ayat/messages, but you have also injected an extremely subjective statement based on no evidence that I could see.
Also, you seem to be insinuating that the Scripture has no prophecies? Perhaps I misread 174 and 541 as prophecies when they were something else?
Here`s an example...though i have already cited it several times in this thread i think...
We know The God is the one who explain his ayats/messages/words/sayings...we see this process when we cross reference the sayings of the book...
now, which decisive/precise/explicit sayings of the book you have used to explain the hyper-ambiguous passage 7430-35?
None....and thats what i was saying....why you havent brought some more decisive sayings to explain the passage? why you didnt cross referenced it? Why you havent allowed The God to speak? And why you have brought your personal subjective man-made interpretation instead?(which is btw based on ignorance or not apllying the basics of the science of statistics)...you want me to accept your interpretation like the traditionalists accept their ulama`s interpretations?...With the behaviour described above you are proving that you do not believe that the God is the one who explains...and particularly that He is doing it by other of His words....
First of all, I have not asked anything from you or anyone else regarding accepting or rejecting what I have stated.
Secondly, you speak untruth when you say that I did no cross reference for 7430-35...the entire article '19-Fact or fiction?' was built on examination of the initialed chapters/suras and placing them in relation to the 19 phenomena.
The article still exists on-line...Show me how ignorant I am of mathematics and reason by tearing it apart.
Do code 19 believers believe in this messages/ayats/signs?
Obvioulsy you seem to think the answer is 'no'. But whose looking for facts when it can all be subjective reasoning?
What is used to explain the passage are man-made sayings of Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Abdullah Arik etc...and not other passages or The God`s sayings, His exclusive representative....
You mean like your insistance that 19 is from the devil is not man made but has been inspired to you by God who teaches the Scripture?
The God havent said there is the code embeded in the book, but Rashad has said it...
What are you looking for...God to speak to you directly
Zaltan This is God, there is a code imbeded in the Scripture, and it is based on the number 19.
The God havent said the counts of the initials/letters should be 19 divisible(and true they are not except for a few counts), but Rashad, Edip and & co. have said it
Do not say what you have not verified. I have looked into this subject and the result was not a few as you claim again and again.
I am asking you now who do we follow? And who is our lord and superior, The God or Edip and Rashad?
Is this a trick question?
Unless it was Rashad and Edip who injected 19 in verse 7430 and all the initialed suras, then I would say it was and always has been 'God'.
Now explain to me how are you any better from those who interpret obey the messenger as obeying the sayings of Muhamad besides the great reading/quran??
They too rush to interpret the verse (as you rush to interpret 7430-35)and study it in isolation using man made writings ....or even worse, explaining it with other even more ambiguous sayings to whome they have (again!) attached their man-made meanings....just like you...
So much accuastion in your post...And all is not only unwaranted, but false.
You link obey the messenger and the Hadiths with 19, just like in your other posts you linked the mumbo jumbo of the sunnis or the rejection of 128&129 with 19...It does not make 19 any less than it is by these false associations.
and thats what i was saying....what you want me to do is to accept your interpretation as divine... but why should I? .. havent you said none of us have an absolute knowledge....why should i accept your interpretation and preffer it to the interpretation of the one who has an absolute knowledge....
Do not accept my interpretation...I have never asked you to so such...I am only surprized why the obsession you relate to this subject as you repeat it in nearly every post, yet you claim it is from the devil and is a trial for the unbelievers?
yes but the God have said he sent the iron help the mankind...i cant remember He has said that He send the code to help mankind as well....besides i dont denie there might be some use out of this code...one of them might be to expose or mislead disbelievers/hypocretes....
With such narrow interpretation you might as well throw away your children and your money since they have been identified as being a potential 'fitna' (82.
so basically you are admiting that you are only conjecturing what to accept and what to reject....the counts do not speak... it is you who have intepreted them to mean what you want them to mean...just like you intepret my words and even the words of The Almighty to suit your purposes......
Were you expecting the counts to speak?
Of course it is me (or you) who must speak and thus translate what we have understood/experienced into words/actions.
As for your accusation...I will leave your words to be your judge.
please show me say a few examples where the code can help to resolve say hafs - warsh differences?
You mean other than the examples of 'BaSta' and 'Sinwan' (which you must have overlooked in your haste).
and explain how do you, as you say, being void of possesion of absolute knowledge, know that The God have intended the counts to be 19 divisible? How do you know that there is not a higher purpose to 19 indivisible counts? Maybe there is even another 19 divisible pattern only ona higher level? see how your position is a very subjective one...at the end of the day who told you 19 divisibility is a tool? he must be your god since you claim it a divine tool? tell me who is he?
I thought (according to you) that we were not allowed to speak for God? Or is it ok for you to speculate about 19 but restrict it for others?
It is interesting to remember the History of the code ..... people in the beggining(having made a mistake in counting of sad by one) have claimed that unual spelling(sad instead of sin) is a divinely inspired error to fit 19 divisible count...this is a win-win situation and there s no way code 19 can loose...if there`s 19 divisibility we say, you see it is divinely preserved if theres not you correct it and then you say, you see its is divinely preserved...
How is it 'win-win' when you would have had a count of (-1) on one hand, and an even count on the other? Please do not bring me erronous research and tell me this is what 19 produces or how it can be interpreted...It either is or it is not.
what evidence dear Layth you have? The evidence is actually saying that prevailing number of counts is not 19 divisible...maybe you can make them all 19 divisible if you are to run all over the word finding all different scripts picking from each whatever 19 divisible you can find there, and then composing a script which will have all counts 19 divisible...but then it wont be divine, but man made code....due to differences in dialect or modes of recording the scripts will normaly differ in counts......this way you can make up the code based on any number you want....
Please update your knowledge on this subject if you wish to argue about it...the evidence is oppsite to what you have stated...As for the text being found that matches the expected results...Why would that worry you if it is found? Would you not be interested in preservation or authenticity of the most important of texts?
cant believe you are serious? tell me how do you know what was original number of verses? and how do you know it must be 19 divisible? who told you this...? and who told you these verses or sentences separated by verse sepatrators are divinely inspired? the separation of the scripture is clearly man made and they are irrelevent....
The only thing I am finding irrelevant is way you are researching the Scripture...The verse issue is a new fabrication that not only has no basis from the Scripture, but is in opposition to the evidence and even logic of its collection and revelation (16110-111).
how man verses there is or how many initals there is is totally irrelevant fact and clearly mumbo-jumbo that is nicely decorated to mislead from the real issues
For you it does nothing...For others it gives comfort/streangth and increases their faith.
who told you code 19 will help differentiate between hafs and warsh...?besides the difference between hafs and warsh in regards of consonant basis is almost unexistent(few minute details having almost no bearing on the meaning7message)...how text shuold be vocalised will be clear from the context and by taking into consideration the general princliples of the book or those stated elswhere in the book....the sayings of the book are mutualy or self-explanatory....
I rest my case that you argue without even studying what you are speaking about...
Hafs & Warsh have more difference than you care to realize...Just the issue of 'Maqam Ibrahim' turns the study of pilgrimage in a new direction.
Yes, there is the issue of how the text should be vocalised ...but the judge can only be the context and cross references and not the code....cause the code is neither capable of it nor it has any authority at all...
voacalization, spelling, reading, verse counts (Hafs, Warsh, Others)...You make lite of what is truly heavy.
yes but muhkam/decisive/tightened/perfected/restrained are the basis/prototype/faoundation/referent place of the book not the mutashabihat/ambiguous/equivocal/indecisive sayings/words/messages
That is why 7430 has no meaning on its own unless applied to the other verses/suras in the Scripture.
To look at it in isolation is to go in circles.
yes but nowhere we are said to interopret it by man made sources subjective sayings... the interpreation is an exclusive right of The God...and perversed hearts are described as ones folowing the ambiguos/indecisive sayings and seeking excuse/discord/misleading/confusion and seeking to interpret it....
We are all man made sources...So if I were to take your statement seriously, then no human would be allowed to study/interpret the Scripture ever.
Thus the Scripture is not for mankind, but is meant to sit in a museum and be looked at and admired.
verse stops? please how do you conclude there are any verse stops in the book of the God....and what difference it would make to the message? and that is all that counts....moreover I doubt there is any evidence that the book is consisting of verses at all.... do you think ayaat mean verses or some specific verses with separation points strictly defined? this is clearly not true...i wonder what evidences you might have fro what you are saying....please cite your evidences here or point to me the exact link to your arguments... there are plenty post and its hard to find that one to me....
And you claim that I am the subjective one!
Verses comprise the text of the Scripture...If you can't find the evidence to support that then I think it is not unreasonable to ask what qualifies you to argue about a subject like 19?
Original meaning spelling should be found....but the original separation points or enumeration have no ANY relevance...
So now you want to find the original spelling (a few paragraphs above I was accused of being subjective in hunting for text that matched a mathematical theory)...But you will share with me your methodology (are we going by the oldest is the more accurate approach?).
I have no warsh at my hands now( ill look it up when i will be at home GW) ... i have read it many times and cant remember any significant difference in the meaning of 51... whatever i think we should know the differences if theres any difference in the meaning
Good to hear you will now look at Warsh and not simply argue that there are no differences to metnion (you can look up the 8 other versions of the Quran while your going about this research).
when the meaning is the same the spelling is irrelevant
Relevant for me because I only care about what god revealed...Not what might be similar.
the knowledge you have and the tool you use is satanic not divinely inspired....
Is Satan responsible for the allignment caused in the Metonic cycle?
Is Satan reposnsible for injecting the word 19 into 7429?
Is Satan repsonsible for initialling 29 chapters/suras?
I think you make Satan proud by such a statement...
then stop paying lip service to it and allow The God to speak for Himself....
You make wild accusations but have neither the information nor the ability to back them up...Not a wise approach to take.
it would even sanctioned the traditional understanding of obey the messenger ....we are not left to guess the meanings of the messages of the book.... they are already PRECISELY explained by The God....
I like how you keep throwing in the 'obey the messenger' as a link when it is not.
It is apparant that you at this stage are still in wild conjecture, especially regarding chapter 74...But that is fine because we are all meant to find the answers when we are ready for them...
We all must respect one anothers beliefs...Is that not what the core of the message is about?
Or is intolerance now our way forward...
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Peace Layth
Also, you seem to be insinuating that the Scripture has no prophecies? Perhaps I misread 174 and 541 as prophecies when they were something else?
There might be some general prophecies ( i would rather call them laws/ways/modes of how people behave or will behave in the past, now and in future) but they must be described explicitely or clearly with the words of the God and not that you personaly and subjectively intepret it by placing your words in the mouth of The Almighty, thus imitating the traditional ulama and mulahs....
I know you are a lover of prophecies...however the scripture is lacking in classical pophecies....and most of its prophecies reffers to the happening around the Hour when there is no room for repentence....particularly there are no prophecies by exact dates and all such prophecies that people are making based on the book are simply conjecturing....
7430-35 mentions no mathematico-numerical code neither any other verse of the scripture explains it in such a way... so whether you have croos referenced it or not it doesnt really matter and people are simply lying by saying that the passage have propheciesed the code....
I havent read your article yet(please provide the link) but cross referencing 7430 to the letter or initials at the begginings of the chapter doesnt help the code s case either...these signs or letters do not say there is the code...or that nineteen is symbol of math. system embeded in the book...its only your, man-made, personal subjective interpretation of the letters/initials that is saying so....and this is not an atom better from interpretation of obey the messenger as obey Hadith..in reality you havent cross referenced it to the initials/letters but to your intepretation of it...and this is not the right attitude...
we, humans, when The Almighty is speaking, have to do nothing more but to sit down ad shut up.... and leave to The God to explain it... as 7519 goes
Moreover, it is upon US to explain it
Its not upon yourself Layth but it is upon God.... and as long as you are trying to interepret it you are but playing God....its not your duty to explain... you simply have no capacity nor authority to do it....
Referencing 7430-1 to the letters/initials is like Hadithers` attempts to justify Hadith by cross referencing obey the messenger to the verse "we have revealed to you the law and wisdom(al-kitab wal hikmah)" and claiming that Quran =kitab while Hikmah =Sunnah...
What they have cross refereced obey the messenger to are not the words of The Almighty, particulary not decisive ayaat which are basis/reffrent place of the book, but their man-made, subjective interpretation of the verse "we have revealed to you the law and wisdom(al-kitab wal hikmah)"
As i have already said, the code believers sometimes do use other verses to explain 7431 but these verses that they use are equaly if not more ambiguous from 7431 in the respect of the theme discussed...what they actually use is their man-made, subjective and personal intepretation of these verses and then they, equaly subjective, force its interpreation upon 7431 ... and they have stolen The God`s exclusive right to interpret His words...
In 174 imo The God is only quoting His prophecy that He(in the past book prior to this revealtion) have given to some people....
174 And We decreed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture(FM)...
imo 541 is describing a phase of the moon(maybe describing the passage of the time) or clefting asunder of the moon a part of the catastrophical happenings at or immediatelly before the Time of Judging...
I am not 100% sure and i would wellcome any of The Gods messages on this topic to be quoted to me...yet this is my stance according to my current knowledge
4718 So are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? For its conditions have already been met. But once it comes to them, how will they benefit from their message? (FM)
From this verse imo is pretty clear that from the moment this verse is reaveled every single minute the hour might come... and there are no prophecies to be fulfiled from then on...so all the prophecies have been fulfilled long time ago....
541 is an interesting unrestrained/ambiguous saying abused by both Coders and Hadithers... its an another striking similarity between the two...
best wishes
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Peace Layth
You have objected to my comparing the traditional interpretation of obey the messenger as obey Hadith, with your intepretation of upon it is/are nineteen as the mathematical code based on No 19...
However my objection is well justified and it glaringly makes clear how subjective Code 19 believers are ...it exposes their double criterias and standards... it clearly shows that Code 19 believers are doing the very same things which they are not allowing the others to do...you do not allow them to interpret the verse and insist on cross referencing to what is more clear precise and unambiguos, but you allow yourself to interpret 7430-1 it as you like.
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Peace
layth wrote
First of all, I have not asked anything from you or anyone else regarding accepting or rejecting what I have stated.
Havent you asked of people to accept the existence of the code 19 mathematico-numerical system embeded in the book based on your research of the counts of letters/initials and recomended them to correct the scripts based on 19 divisibility(things which The God have never ask me to do....)all these things are your invention and by proclaiming them true you are asking people to accept it....whether it is stated directly or not...
Secondly, you speak untruth when you say that I did no cross reference for 7430-35...the entire article '19-Fact or fiction?' was built on examination of the initialed chapters/suras and placing them in relation to the 19 phenomena.
the initials/letters do not say there is the code 19 embeded or upon Quran is mathematical code or correct script based on 19 divisibility or angels over the fire are symbol of the mathematical code 19.... or iddatuhum is the math. code ...It is only you who have subjectively interpreted them as such...
You have actually cross referenced 7431 to the writings of Rashad Khalifa( and other code 19 proponents) cause he was the one who made all these claims not The Almighty....
Thus you have made them and yourself a partner to The God
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Do code 19 believers believe in this messages/ayats/signs?
Obvioulsy you seem to think the answer is 'no'. But whose looking for facts when it can all be subjective reasoning?
Does you refusal to answer means that you do not believe in them?
namely that you do not believe that The God is one who explains and not humans and that He is doing it through cross/self-referencing
Here are again few verses(and there is a plenty of verses similar to these in the book) for the code 19 believers... let they ponder upon them cause by accepting the code they are at least failing to applie them, if not disbelieve, cause we know that truly/only believe in the messages of The God those who upon hearing them obey....
7519 it is upon Us to explain it
20114 do not be haste with the reading before its revelation to you is finished, and say my lord increase to me the knowledge
2189 Thus The God explain His ayats/signs/messages to men in order that they may guard themsleves
And to the divorced women belongs recompense as an obligation upon
the righteous. Thus The God explains His ayats/signs/messages to
you in order that you may understand.---" 2241-242"Does anyone of you like that he have a garden with palm trees and
grapevines, and rivers flowing beneath it, and in it for him are all
kinds of fruits, then he is afflicted with old age and his progeny is
weak, and a whirlwind with fire strikes it and it all burns? ----It is
thus that God makes clear explains for you the ayats/signs/messages that you may reflect----" 2266And those who rejected said "If only the Quran was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly. And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation. (2532-3 FM)
What is used to explain the passage are man-made sayings of Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Abdullah Arik etc...and not other passages or The God`s sayings, His exclusive representative....
You mean like your insistance that 19 is from the devil is not man made but has been inspired to you by God who teaches the Scripture?
If something is claimed to be revealed from The God to the messenger and we found it not in the great reading, then we know by default that its devils invention....
The God havent said there is the code embeded in the book, but Rashad has said it...
What are you looking for...God to speak to you directly
Zaltan This is God, there is a code imbeded in the Scripture, and it is based on the number 19.
Not to me but to the messenger.. and yes i want it to be direct and plain just like other guiding informations in the book are....otherwise every tom dick and hary may invent their code or sunnah and when objected they could simply say "you want The God to speak to you directly?"
Layth, ask yourself sincerely have you ever really left the sunnah and the religion of your ancestors? or you have simply made it a little bit modern?
In the great reading we found a plenty of details and direct explanations in regards the signs of Musa who have recieved the scripture in the past, however there are not any details in regards of its (allegedly) authenticating/convincing/faith increasing/correcting/guarding doctrine Code 19?
That is not logical and consistent....
We found in it the exact, precise and direct instructions with regard of how Saleh`s camel should be dealt with(a trial which have happened long time ago) but there are not any details and direct instructions about the Code??!!
Come on ! Use your reasoning...cause thats exactly what Code 19 believers reject....
best wishes, Zlatan
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who told you code 19 will help differentiate between hafs and warsh...?besides the difference between hafs and warsh in regards of consonant basis is almost unexistent(few minute details having almost no bearing on the meaning7message)...how text shuold be vocalised will be clear from the context and by taking into consideration the general princliples of the book or those stated elswhere in the book....the sayings of the book are mutualy or self-explanatory....
I rest my case that you argue without even studying what you are speaking about...
Hafs & Warsh have more difference than you care to realize...Just the issue of 'Maqam Ibrahim' turns the study of pilgrimage in a new direction.
The God is my witness that i have read it from cover to cover many times 2 or 3 years ago(when my kids tore some of its pages out)...I have read it 10 or 20 or 30 and maybe more times i cant recall exactly....If i recall well i sometimes used to read it 3 times a month from cover to cover....
And as i have said talking about consonant basis(vocalisation marks...) the difference in meanings are nuances or almost the same...moreover speaking about consonant
s basis(without dots and vocalistaion marks) they almost have no any difference...let alone a lot of significant differences you are talking about..their consonants basis (without both dots and vocalisation marks)differs only at few places....having no bearance on meaning toward my humble knowledge....if you have studied it please show me a single place where the difference make the difference in meaning....ttakhIdhoo or ttakhAdhoo have the same consonant basis...even the vocalistion marks that they are differing in, as i have said has no much bearing upon the meaning...."they took or take you out of position/place/stance of Abraham musallaa(not sure if warsh have it as musalla as well, will check it tonight)" has the same meaning if we are to take Abraham and/or those with him as a good example...
If this what you are reffering to.... please make numerical refference that i can know what you are reffering to...
Yes, there is the issue of how the text should be vocalised ...but the judge can only be the context and cross references and not the code....cause the code is neither capable of it nor it has any authority at all...
voacalization, spelling, reading, verse counts (Hafs, Warsh, Others)...You make lite of what is truly heavy.
If i recall well there are many arabic documents without dots and/or vocalistion marks( daily newspapers for example) ...even the students on courses or textbooks of arabic language are recomended to read the texts without dots or vovels....one who is familiar with the language should have no any difficulties....context is the judge....even in the english or any other language and/or text, that humans are reading, there is a lot of intelligent guessing based solely on context and general message of the text....
of course if one is not familiar with arabic it will not be easy to him with or without the dots and/or vocalisation marks...but to make a great issue of it and thus justify the code and claim that we are to differ between them based on 19 divisibility is to produce lies upon The God....
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http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/differences.htm
The above link is an insightfull text written by Mirgani Hamed titled Cult 19 and christian missionaries ...its an analysis of some of the "differences" between "different versions" of Quran and the resemblence of the code 19 believers and christian missionaries
best wishes
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The God havent said the counts of the initials/letters should be 19 divisible(and true they are not except for a few counts), but Rashad, Edip and & co. have said it
Do not say what you have not verified. I have looked into this subject and the result was not a few as you claim again and again.
Here`s an excerpt from my article written in the year of 26 AC*
....
I made some analyses according to simple and plain methods that could easily show does code exist or not. Datas for my analysis I took from tables with counts of initials of Abu Jamil(a code 19 proponent) www.q-zone.com ....
1.For example, if we count all the initials that crown particular chapter and if we divide its count/sum with 19 and if we analyse all 29 initialed surahs using the same method, we found that ONLY 3 surah out of 29 initialed surahs shows 19 divisible count/sum of its initials (chapters No19 Merjem , chapter No 36 ja seen,Chapter 50 Qaf). ONLY 3 out 29 ???!!! Is this a miracle??? What miracle is this???? ONLY 3 out 29 ???!!! This is on level of an everyday coincidence.
2.Similarly, people often say " In the surah No 50(surah qaf) there are 57 qafs(letter qaf), and in surah No 42(surah Shura) there are also 57 qafs, and 57+57 =114 and you see it is 19 divisible and it`s miracle!!!".
But, when we analyse other initials using the same method, none of the others "initals" (letters) show such a 19 divisibility pattern.(even in the case that Sin in the word bastaten(7/69) is corrected to Sad and Noon in 68/1 spelled out as NwN, even then we have only 3 out of 14 initials that have 19-divisible count)
So we have ONLY ONE(1) 19-divisible sum out of 14???? Is this a miracle ??? Is this a one of the graetest miracles???
3.Niaz(its actualy Edip Yuksel`s way of anylysing) analysed initals acording a method where initials are considered as a sets of initials. And he found five(5) of them 19 divisible out of 14. ....
......
This was at the year of 2000 according to the datas of some of the code 19 believers....I am just curios to know how the recounting goes/progresses and what are the newest discoveries...
best wishes, Zlatan
*AC - abbreviation- Anno Codini (used to indicate that a date comes the specified number of years after the date of Code`s birth).
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Peace Zaltan,
And as i have said talking about consonant basis(vocalisation marks...) the difference in meanings are nuances or almost the same...moreover speaking about consonant
s basis(without dots and vocalistaion marks) they almost have no any difference...let alone a lot of significant differences you are talking about..their consonants basis (without both dots and vocalisation marks)differs only at few places....having no bearance on meaning toward my humble knowledge....if you have studied it please show me a single place where the difference make the difference in meaning....I have studied them and have pointed out a few of the serious differences (such as "Qul" - a command, and "Qaal" - a fact...Such as "Itakhithu" - a command, and "Itakhathu" - a statement of fact").
I have not even touched on the differences in the 'other' versions...And they are quite numerous (such as 2191 "do not kill them at the Sacred Temple" and "do not fight them at the Sacred Temple", such as 6115 "Your Lord's words" and "Your Lord's word", such as 917 "God's Temple" and "God's tempels", etc.).
To deny the existence of these variations is to deny the truth of what is and create a false sence of security (no different to the Christians who hold on to the belief that the Bible is God's perfect word or the Jews to sing praise to the Torah as being preserved and perfected).
You also are not accurate in your comment about the dots...This issue is now past tense as documents have already come to light and been examined which used dots around the alleged time fo revealtion (see Ayman's post on this subject)...The lack of dots is a factor of the writing style and is predominant in the Kufi script even until at least two centuries after the revealtion.
namely that you do not believe that The God is one who explains and not humans and that He is doing it through cross/self-referencing
You seem to think that God doing the explaining also means He has to do the speaking?
As far as I am aware on this planet God does not communicate directly with any of us except through messengers or through inspiration...Thus it is us (humans) who will always be the transmitters (right or wrong)
If you have knowledge to the contrary then please share it...
We found in it the exact, precise and direct instructions with regard of how Saleh`s camel should be dealt with(a trial which have happened long time ago) but there are not any details and direct instructions about the Code??!!
When you hold a gun backwards, you will always be shooting yourself...
The mess with the versions of the Scripture were not created by '19' or any of the other fictional enemies you have declared to be from Satan...The versions were created by humans who were careless regarding the greatest gift that they have recieved...the words of the Almighty.
My intention was not to shake people in their faith (which is clearly what this whole subject has done), but my intention is that we get our act together and find the answers that we need to unify the Scripture back into the form it was revealed.
I am listening for solutions...I have heard nothing but static from nearly this whole group....Do you have a solution better than what I have proposed?
If you do, then share it...If you do not, then please see what you are doing and what you have become...No different from the Christians, Jews and Sunnis who believe they have the truth because they found it as such and it must be true.
There is only One God and One Scripture...I will not, God willing, be silent on this subject while even one letter of the revelation of the Almighty is in dispute.
We may part ways or be united in this task...
