Fitna/Test/Trial (54:27, 74:31, 17:60..) ?
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Peace Zaltan & All,
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Why the insistence to link the rejection of 9128-129 with 19?
I have found this to be a common theme in this thread when it is totally biased and based on the 'human' research of Rashad.
19 does not reject 9128-129, but Rashad's research did (please note the difference between the two).
Secondly, your example of the people who believe in mumbo jumbo by placing the text in water or around their neck is also unrelated to 19.
Finally, I want your answer on the following question
- Reviewing the Hafs & Warsh, we find that the Basmalla in Chapter 1 is treated differently than the other chapters...Which version (if any) is 'more correct'? Or do you believe that they are both inspired by God?
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
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Peace Layth all
Peace Zaltan & All,
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Why the insistence to link the rejection of 9128-129 with 19?
I am not insisting to link it, on contrary, i would actually like that people analyse it as separate issues....the rejection of 9128-129 was implied in the question of Nadia...that s why i have mentioned it....she has been asking/inquiring about such people like you, who believe in the code, but not in the rejection of 9128-9....then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19.... with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention....
this was my stance several years now...
see for example the thread that i have initiated on this topic named
Deletion of 9/128,129 is only a drop in the dark code ocean
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2006
I have found this to be a common theme in this thread when it is totally biased and based on the 'human' research of Rashad.
19 does not reject 9128-129, but Rashad's research did (please note the difference between the two).
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
Secondly, your example of the people who believe in mumbo jumbo by placing the text in water or around their neck is also unrelated to 19.
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith....both phenomenons are mumbo-jumbo..... its just that you are modernistically inclined and thus numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo doesnt looks like mumbo-jumbo to you...but both are highly subjective and based on misundrestanding and misinterpreting what is stated in the great reading... both are result of man-made interpretation of the book of The God thus injuring The God`s exclusive right to interpret and explain His sayings....
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Finally, I want your answer on the following question
- Reviewing the Hafs & Warsh, we find that the Basmalla in Chapter 1 is treated differently than the other chapters...Which version (if any) is 'more correct'? Or do you believe that they are both inspired by God?
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
Can you be more specific, i am not sure what you are trying to say here...are you claiming there are proofs of the code being inserted that are not discovered yet, but are only propheciesed in 7430-35?
best wishes,
Zlatan
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Peace Truth,
This is a completely different view from the 'fleeing' that you advocated before regarding 'fitnah'. You were saying that one needs to flee a fitnah when it was pointed out that 292-3 state that everyone will be put to "fitnah" to test their faith.
This reference to
6415 Your money and children are a test, and GOD possesses a great recompense.
is a good one. It shows that these are 'fitnah' and obviously one cannot flee these or abandon them.
You are right, no one should flee them, but one should not get obsessed with them or his money.
One needs to give them their due consideration and position. That's all that I've been saying all along wheras the the team with Marie, Zlatan, and yourself are advocating the abandoning of this.
The consideration and position of counting 19 is that it is a "fitna" NOT a "ayat/sign" as you advocate.
Here's another verse that places this meaning into context
639 O you who believe, do not be distracted by your money and your children from remembering GOD. Those who do this are the losers.
So the objects of the test can indeed become a distraction to remembering God; but it is not a reason to deny that the count of 19 is a sign.
The only reason to deny it as a sign is that it is NEVER described as a sign/"ayat" in the great reading.
Moreover I think that this in fact strengthens the case that whatever it is with 19/nineteen - it involves a count - and that is what is important. So yes it is not some mystical faith in a number 19 that 'counts' (pardon the pun), but the count of it (in the Koran) which is the sign.
The underlined is mystical faith because it is not based on the reality in the great reading. Where is the count of 19 described as a "sign/ayat" in the great reading? NOWHERE.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Zaltan,
then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19
Please give examples...I accept from my research that there is a 19 related design in the Scripture...I have not however ever heard that this design causes the rejection of 'other ayats/messages' as you have stated.
with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention.
Iron was sent down as a mercy from God to help mankind (5725)...Yet man abused this most precious of substances to create weapons of destruction and mayhem...It is not 'Iron' that is evil or from the devil, but what man has made of it is.
this was my stance several years now...
Our stances should be made based on 'truth'...Not simply because we have believed or accepted such a way for years or even decades.
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
LOL...I would be very worried if 19 or any other number were 'speaking to me'
The tool of '19' is extremely effective in identifying where potential issues of human error/manipulation in the text/design of the Scripture may be found...We have seen the example of 'BaSta' but also the examples of 'Sinwan' and a few other words that were misspelled in later editions of the text.
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith
Finding spelling errors in the text is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
Finding miscounts of the verses is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
You may 'chose' to ignore that these things have ever happened and believe that are comming from the realm of the 'mumbo jumbo' while in-fact the evidence is there for any who wish to see.
....both phenomenons are mumbo-jumbo..... its just that you are modernistically inclined and thus numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo doesnt looks like mumbo-jumbo to you...but both are highly subjective and based on misundrestanding and misinterpreting what is stated in the great reading.
Did I imagine Hafs & Warsh variation?
I wish I did and this was all a bad dream...But the reality is that the issue is there and it is bigger than being waved away into obsecurity.
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Is the Muhkam and the Mutashabih not both from God?
We are clearly permitted to study both, however the interpretation of one is more complex/deeper than the interpretation of the other (hence more mistakes may occur in the reading/tauweel).
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
See my post to Ayman on the subject of the 'verse stops'. The issue is not 'man-made' but is most relevant since the Scripture was revealed in verse format and then collected in its current format...
You are saying that we do not need to kown how the original structure looked like...I am of the opinoin that we do.
You are saying we do not need to worry about the meaning changes (like 51 in Hafs & Warsh)... I am of the opinoin that we do.
You are saying we do not need to worry about the word changes or spelling changes...I am of the opinoin that we do.
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
We have now the knowledge of the changes and the tool to measure these changes...To ignore such a blessing is to ignore the gift we are given.
To have come so far and then turn back is the worse thing we can do.
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Recall my example of the 'Iron'...It is only a Trojan horse if you want it to be.
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
Can you be more specific, i am not sure what you are trying to say here...are you claiming there are proofs of the code being inserted that are not discovered yet, but are only propheciesed in 7430-35?
I am saying that we will never have full knwoledge as that feature rests with God and God only...
We can only strive to learn and not be decieved into thinking that this is the end to it all or that this is the limit of the knowledge...
The scripture may be finite in its words, but it is infinate in its content.
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Peace Layth
this debate will lead to nowhere if you put in my mouth what i was not saying at all... and this is repeating from post to post now...
Peace Zaltan,
then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19
Please give examples...I accept from my research that there is a 19 related design in the Scripture...I have not however ever heard that this design causes the rejection of 'other ayats/messages' as you have stated.
I do not say at all that there is such a design in the scripture....what i was saying is that if one is to accept existence of Code 19(the invented/imagined code based on misinterpretation of the book`s sayings, subjective perceptions and failing to aplly the basics of the science of statistics) one must come into contradiction with other ayats/messages of the book....more simply said, if one claim the code is propheciesed in some verses of the book one is contradicting the very messages of the book.....
Here`s an example...though i have already cited it several times in this thread i think...
We know The God is the one who explain his ayats/messages/words/sayings...we see this process when we cross reference the sayings of the book...
now, which decisive/precise/explicit sayings of the book you have used to explain the hyper-ambiguous passage 7430-35?
None....and thats what i was saying....why you havent brought some more decisive sayings to explain the passage? why you didnt cross referenced it? Why you havent allowed The God to speak? And why you have brought your personal subjective man-made interpretation instead?(which is btw based on ignorance or not apllying the basics of the science of statistics)...you want me to accept your interpretation like the traditionalists accept their ulama`s interpretations?...With the behaviour described above you are proving that you do not believe that the God is the one who explains...and particularly that He is doing it by other of His words....
Do code 19 believers believe in this messages/ayats/signs?
7519 it is upon Us to explain it
20114 do not be haste with the reading before its revelation to you is finished, and say my lord increase to me the knowledge
2189 Thus The God explain His ayats/signs/messages to men in order that they may guard themsleves
And to the divorced women belongs recompense as an obligation upon
the righteous. Thus The God explains His ayats/signs/messages to
you in order that you may understand.---" 2241-242"Does anyone of you like that he have a garden with palm trees and
grapevines, and rivers flowing beneath it, and in it for him are all
kinds of fruits, then he is afflicted with old age and his progeny is
weak, and a whirlwind with fire strikes it and it all burns? ----It is
thus that God makes clear explains for you the ayats/signs/messages that you may reflect----" 2266And those who rejected said "If only the Quran was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly. And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation. (2532-3 FM)
What is used to explain the passage are man-made sayings of Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Abdullah Arik etc...and not other passages or The God`s sayings, His exclusive representative....
The God havent said there is the code embeded in the book, but Rashad has said it...
The God havent said the counts of the initials/letters should be 19 divisible(and true they are not except for a few counts), but Rashad, Edip and & co. have said it
I am asking you now who do we follow? And who is our lord and superior, The God or Edip and Rashad?
Now explain to me how are you any better from those who interpret obey the messenger as obeying the sayings of Muhamad besides the great reading/quran??
They too rush to interpret the verse (as you rush to interpret 7430-35)and study it in isolation using man made writings ....or even worse, explaining it with other even more ambiguous sayings to whome they have (again!) attached their man-made meanings....just like you...
and thats what i was saying....what you want me to do is to accept your interpretation as divine... but why should I? .. havent you said none of us have an absolute knowledge....why should i accept your interpretation and preffer it to the interpretation of the one who has an absolute knowledge....
If you admit that you have no absolute knowledge, how do you know that that 19 INdivisibility is not there for a higher purpose....you are only conjecturing when you claim they should be all 19 divisible and we are to correct the scriptur based on such a criterium...
I remember discussing the numerology thing with you at rope forum or FM emailing list and you wasnt having a statistical approach but a subjective one....judging from this post things havent changed....you are time and again proving that the faith in the code is not science based but on contrary, based on neglecting the true science....
with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention.
Iron was sent down as a mercy from God to help mankind (5725)...Yet man abused this most precious of substances to create weapons of destruction and mayhem...It is not 'Iron' that is evil or from the devil, but what man has made of it is.
yes but the God have said he sent the iron help the mankind...i cant remember He has said that He send the code to help mankind as well....besides i dont denie there might be some use out of this code...one of them might be to expose or mislead disbelievers/hypocretes....
this was my stance several years now...
Our stances should be made based on 'truth'...Not simply because we have believed or accepted such a way for years or even decades.
Have I said so?
I have mentioned that this was my stance by years now in order to prove that i realy believe that rejection of 9/128-9 is a minor issue and that that being my stance is not a quickly invented excuse...can you please be more careful next time not to put your words into my mouth Layth...
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
LOL...I would be very worried if 19 or any other number were 'speaking to me'
so basically you are admiting that you are only conjecturing what to accept and what to reject....the counts do not speak... it is you who have intepreted them to mean what you want them to mean...just like you intepret my words and even the words of The Almighty to suit your purposes......
The tool of '19' is extremely effective in identifying where potential issues of human error/manipulation in the text/design of the Scripture may be found...We have seen the example of 'BaSta' but also the examples of 'Sinwan' and a few other words that were misspelled in later editions of the text.
please show me say a few examples where the code can help to resolve say hafs - warsh differences?
and explain how do you, as you say, being void of possesion of absolute knowledge, know that The God have intended the counts to be 19 divisible? How do you know that there is not a higher purpose to 19 indivisible counts? Maybe there is even another 19 divisible pattern only ona higher level? see how your position is a very subjective one...at the end of the day who told you 19 divisibility is a tool? he must be your god since you claim it a divine tool? tell me who is he?
It is interesting to remember the History of the code ..... people in the beggining(having made a mistake in counting of sad by one) have claimed that unual spelling(sad instead of sin) is a divinely inspired error to fit 19 divisible count...this is a win-win situation and there s no way code 19 can loose...if there`s 19 divisibility we say, you see it is divinely preserved if theres not you correct it and then you say, you see its is divinely preserved...
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith
Finding spelling errors in the text is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
what evidence dear Layth you have? The evidence is actually saying that prevailing number of counts is not 19 divisible...maybe you can make them all 19 divisible if you are to run all over the word finding all different scripts picking from each whatever 19 divisible you can find there, and then composing a script which will have all counts 19 divisible...but then it wont be divine, but man made code....due to differences in dialect or modes of recording the scripts will normaly differ in counts......this way you can make up the code based on any number you want....
Finding miscounts of the verses is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
cant believe you are serious? tell me how do you know what was original number of verses? and how do you know it must be 19 divisible? who told you this...? and who told you these verses or sentences separated by verse sepatrators are divinely inspired? the separation of the scripture is clearly man made and they are irrelevent....
You may 'chose' to ignore that these things have ever happened and believe that are comming from the realm of the 'mumbo jumbo' while in-fact the evidence is there for any who wish to see.
how man verses there is or how many initals there is is totally irrelevant fact and clearly mumbo-jumbo that is nicely decorated to mislead from the real issues
Did I imagine Hafs & Warsh variation?
who told you code 19 will help differentiate between hafs and warsh...?besides the difference between hafs and warsh in regards of consonant basis is almost unexistent(few minute details having almost no bearing on the meaning7message)...how text shuold be vocalised will be clear from the context and by taking into consideration the general princliples of the book or those stated elswhere in the book....the sayings of the book are mutualy or self-explanatory....
I wish I did and this was all a bad dream...But the reality is that the issue is there and it is bigger than being waved away into obsecurity.
Yes, there is the issue of how the text should be vocalised ...but the judge can only be the context and cross references and not the code....cause the code is neither capable of it nor it has any authority at all...
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Is the Muhkam and the Mutashabih not both from God?
yes but muhkam/decisive/tightened/perfected/restrained are the basis/prototype/faoundation/referent place of the book not the mutashabihat/ambiguous/equivocal/indecisive sayings/words/messages
We are clearly permitted to study both, however the interpretation of one is more complex/deeper than the interpretation of the other (hence more mistakes may occur in the reading/tauweel).
yes but nowhere we are said to interopret it by man made sources subjective sayings... the interpreation is an exclusive right of The God...and perversed hearts are described as ones folowing the ambiguos/indecisive sayings and seeking excuse/discord/misleading/confusion and seeking to interpret it....
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
See my post to Ayman on the subject of the 'verse stops'. The issue is not 'man-made' but is most relevant since the Scripture was revealed in verse format and then collected in its current format...
verse stops? please how do you conclude there are any verse stops in the book of the God....and what difference it would make to the message? and that is all that counts....moreover I doubt there is any evidence that the book is consisting of verses at all.... do you think ayaat mean verses or some specific verses with separation points strictly defined? this is clearly not true...i wonder what evidences you might have fro what you are saying....please cite your evidences here or point to me the exact link to your arguments... there are plenty post and its hard to find that one to me....
You are saying that we do not need to kown how the original structure looked like...I am of the opinoin that we do.
Original meaning spelling should be found....but the original separation points or enumeration have no ANY relevance...
You are saying we do not need to worry about the meaning changes (like 51 in Hafs & Warsh)... I am of the opinoin that we do.
I have no warsh at my hands now( ill look it up when i will be at home GW) ... i have read it many times and cant remember any significant difference in the meaning of 51... whatever i think we should know the differences if theres any difference in the meaning
You are saying we do not need to worry about the word changes or spelling changes...I am of the opinoin that we do.
when the meaning is the same the spelling is irrelevant
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
We have now the knowledge of the changes and the tool to measure these changes...To ignore such a blessing is to ignore the gift we are given.
the knowledge you have and the tool you use is satanic not divinely inspired....
To have come so far and then turn back is the worse thing we can do.
allowe me to quote you
"Our stances should be made based on 'truth'...Not simply because we have believed or accepted such a way for years or even decades."
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Recall my example of the 'Iron'...It is only a Trojan horse if you want it to be.
the example is shown to be inadequate...The God has specifically mentioned iron as useful... but he hasnt mentioned any mathematico-numerical code, let alone code 19...(not that it cant be useful for misguiding the misbelievers.....and for learning a lesson to believers.....)
I am saying that we will never have full knwoledge as that feature rests with God and God only...
then stop paying lip service to it and allow The God to speak for Himself....
We can only strive to learn and not be decieved into thinking that this is the end to it all or that this is the limit of the knowledge...The scripture may be finite in its words, but it is infinate in its content.
you mean you`ll enrich the scripture with your subjective interpretations?
True, the words might have the levels of meanings but these levels can only be vertical(idolatry = bowing to statues/fearing other than God/following books other than that of The God/not upholding The God`s precepts/following desires etc ) and not of horisontal nature(obey the messenger =obey The Book of The God/obey additional revelation given Muhamad along with the great reading or quran/etc.).....cause then it would be a subjective inventing of what is not said or meant by God and following of a reading/quran other than this and it would open the doors for invention thousands of different contradicting doctrines all of them attributed to the God and it would inevitably led to sectarianism...we see this phenomenon at free minds discussions very well expounded.... it would even sanctioned the traditional understanding of obey the messenger ....we are not left to guess the meanings of the messages of the book.... they are already PRECISELY explained by The God....
bets wishes
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Peace all,
Just some rambling thoughts in my head today
I think the concept, the abstract, the message is more important than the concrete collection of numbers. The number, I've noticed, has increased pride in people, the same trait Iblis showed to God, and we all know what happened to him. But most importantly of all, I havent seen this number or code make people more righteous in the world. Think all the time and effort involved in counting words and numbers of the book could have been spent feeding a poor person or being righteous in some other way. I do agree we need to study the book and meditate on its meanings, but I fear this code 19 has become another idol, and has inflated egos.
One thing I've learnt this past year, since coming across FM is that Islam is pro-active, not made up of mindless rituals. Islam is life, doing good works for God. If God wanted us to get tangled up in numbers and codes, then the book might have been all numbers, or there would have been a direct commandments to find a code or something.
What is the urge driving people to look for this code though? I think this question is important. Sometimes I think people are looking for a code because then they would be able to tell the future in some convoluted way. This of course I dont agree with, I dont believe the book is prophetic in a specific manner, more in a general manner, i.e - 'this is how people are, this is what they do', not 'this country will do this, and something specific will happen in this year, etc'. Another reason for people to hunt for a code may be that it would confirm the book is Divine, but that would mean they arent believers in the first place, if they feel the need to confirm a code to prove this is God's book. If after learing the message you still dont believe it is a Divine and perfect system, a way of life, then you are not a believer.
The book is merely a reminder, a guide, and increases believers in their faith. To rejecters, it increases their non-faith, their aversion. Think about that. This book isnt meant to be used to convince others about Islam, its soley for believers to make them feel better, its a mercy from God, The Most Merciful. A creative method of bringing new followers to Islam, is that if believers follow the book the way they're meant to; their actions look good to non-believers, and thats how they become interested in Islam. A mathematical code isnt going to do this, as we can see.
Only God can guide people, or convince them to see the light, its not our job to do that, so I cant think of any other motivations for people to find a hidden code in this book. I understand a big motivation is to get closer to Islam, but like I said, the best way to do that is to follow the clear commandments of God, live righteously, submit to The Lord of the Worlds and His system.
Peace.
EDIT
When I read a chapter, I take it all in, taking verses alone isnt the way the book is meant to be read in my opinion. There are parts that are repeated throughout the book, but I think the main reason for that is that whenever you pick up the book, 90% of the time whatever chapter you decide to read, you'll get the main essence always, the main examples of Musa, etc.
So anyway, after reading chapter 74 again, here is what I'm thinking today, I'm thinking that the number 19 is not what is being referred to in this chapter, but the angels themselves. And they are not a test for us, but for people in hell. This chapter is primarily about hell, not Earth.
The beginning of the chapter leads up to hell, it talks about the non-believers for a while, before we finally reach a Scorching Heat. Upon it is nineteen, which may or may not be the angels mentioned in the next verse, it could be levels for all we know. When it does talk about the angels (beings of light, with no free will), it says God made them as a test for those who rejected. God made their number, as in God made them plural, as in more than one. God made angels as a test for rejecters within the Scorching Heat.
That may be the test. Rejecters will see angels hovering above them, and choose to believe in them or not, and will wonder "What did God mean with an example such as this?". The chapter talks about how people who were given the scripture and believed in Islam (maybe even Christians/Jews) will be increased in faith, and this is because they believed in angels all along.
Its a test for rejecters, "For any among you who wishes to advance or regress". Maybe this is about going through levels of hell? Eh, I dont know, I guess I'm stretching it alot now, but I do think its worth pondering whether angels are what is being speicified here as a test, not a number.
But even for believers it is important to know that "none know your Lord's soldiers/hosts except Him". This is another thing that points me towards thinking this chapter is about hell and angels, not numbers and Earth.
/end long ramble
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Peace Zaltan,
this debate will lead to nowhere if you put in my mouth what i was not saying at all... and this is repeating from post to post now...
To my knowledge I am using your words in a 'quote' most of the time...So unless you are not comfortable with what you have already said, I would not say that anyone is putitng words in your mouth.
I do not say at all that there is such a design in the scripture....what i was saying is that if one is to accept existence of Code 19(the invented/imagined code based on misinterpretation of the book`s sayings, subjective perceptions and failing to aplly the basics of the science of statistics) one must come into contradiction with other ayats/messages of the book....more simply said, if one claim the code is propheciesed in some verses of the book one is contradicting the very messages of the book.....
Not only have you failed to give an example of where this number would lead to rejection of ayat/messages, but you have also injected an extremely subjective statement based on no evidence that I could see.
Also, you seem to be insinuating that the Scripture has no prophecies? Perhaps I misread 174 and 541 as prophecies when they were something else?
Here`s an example...though i have already cited it several times in this thread i think...
We know The God is the one who explain his ayats/messages/words/sayings...we see this process when we cross reference the sayings of the book...
now, which decisive/precise/explicit sayings of the book you have used to explain the hyper-ambiguous passage 7430-35?
None....and thats what i was saying....why you havent brought some more decisive sayings to explain the passage? why you didnt cross referenced it? Why you havent allowed The God to speak? And why you have brought your personal subjective man-made interpretation instead?(which is btw based on ignorance or not apllying the basics of the science of statistics)...you want me to accept your interpretation like the traditionalists accept their ulama`s interpretations?...With the behaviour described above you are proving that you do not believe that the God is the one who explains...and particularly that He is doing it by other of His words....
First of all, I have not asked anything from you or anyone else regarding accepting or rejecting what I have stated.
Secondly, you speak untruth when you say that I did no cross reference for 7430-35...the entire article '19-Fact or fiction?' was built on examination of the initialed chapters/suras and placing them in relation to the 19 phenomena.
The article still exists on-line...Show me how ignorant I am of mathematics and reason by tearing it apart.
Do code 19 believers believe in this messages/ayats/signs?
Obvioulsy you seem to think the answer is 'no'. But whose looking for facts when it can all be subjective reasoning?
What is used to explain the passage are man-made sayings of Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Abdullah Arik etc...and not other passages or The God`s sayings, His exclusive representative....
You mean like your insistance that 19 is from the devil is not man made but has been inspired to you by God who teaches the Scripture?
The God havent said there is the code embeded in the book, but Rashad has said it...
What are you looking for...God to speak to you directly
Zaltan This is God, there is a code imbeded in the Scripture, and it is based on the number 19.
The God havent said the counts of the initials/letters should be 19 divisible(and true they are not except for a few counts), but Rashad, Edip and & co. have said it
Do not say what you have not verified. I have looked into this subject and the result was not a few as you claim again and again.
I am asking you now who do we follow? And who is our lord and superior, The God or Edip and Rashad?
Is this a trick question?
Unless it was Rashad and Edip who injected 19 in verse 7430 and all the initialed suras, then I would say it was and always has been 'God'.
Now explain to me how are you any better from those who interpret obey the messenger as obeying the sayings of Muhamad besides the great reading/quran??
They too rush to interpret the verse (as you rush to interpret 7430-35)and study it in isolation using man made writings ....or even worse, explaining it with other even more ambiguous sayings to whome they have (again!) attached their man-made meanings....just like you...
So much accuastion in your post...And all is not only unwaranted, but false.
You link obey the messenger and the Hadiths with 19, just like in your other posts you linked the mumbo jumbo of the sunnis or the rejection of 128&129 with 19...It does not make 19 any less than it is by these false associations.
and thats what i was saying....what you want me to do is to accept your interpretation as divine... but why should I? .. havent you said none of us have an absolute knowledge....why should i accept your interpretation and preffer it to the interpretation of the one who has an absolute knowledge....
Do not accept my interpretation...I have never asked you to so such...I am only surprized why the obsession you relate to this subject as you repeat it in nearly every post, yet you claim it is from the devil and is a trial for the unbelievers?
yes but the God have said he sent the iron help the mankind...i cant remember He has said that He send the code to help mankind as well....besides i dont denie there might be some use out of this code...one of them might be to expose or mislead disbelievers/hypocretes....
With such narrow interpretation you might as well throw away your children and your money since they have been identified as being a potential 'fitna' (82.
so basically you are admiting that you are only conjecturing what to accept and what to reject....the counts do not speak... it is you who have intepreted them to mean what you want them to mean...just like you intepret my words and even the words of The Almighty to suit your purposes......
Were you expecting the counts to speak?
Of course it is me (or you) who must speak and thus translate what we have understood/experienced into words/actions.
As for your accusation...I will leave your words to be your judge.
please show me say a few examples where the code can help to resolve say hafs - warsh differences?
You mean other than the examples of 'BaSta' and 'Sinwan' (which you must have overlooked in your haste).
and explain how do you, as you say, being void of possesion of absolute knowledge, know that The God have intended the counts to be 19 divisible? How do you know that there is not a higher purpose to 19 indivisible counts? Maybe there is even another 19 divisible pattern only ona higher level? see how your position is a very subjective one...at the end of the day who told you 19 divisibility is a tool? he must be your god since you claim it a divine tool? tell me who is he?
I thought (according to you) that we were not allowed to speak for God? Or is it ok for you to speculate about 19 but restrict it for others?
It is interesting to remember the History of the code ..... people in the beggining(having made a mistake in counting of sad by one) have claimed that unual spelling(sad instead of sin) is a divinely inspired error to fit 19 divisible count...this is a win-win situation and there s no way code 19 can loose...if there`s 19 divisibility we say, you see it is divinely preserved if theres not you correct it and then you say, you see its is divinely preserved...
How is it 'win-win' when you would have had a count of (-1) on one hand, and an even count on the other? Please do not bring me erronous research and tell me this is what 19 produces or how it can be interpreted...It either is or it is not.
what evidence dear Layth you have? The evidence is actually saying that prevailing number of counts is not 19 divisible...maybe you can make them all 19 divisible if you are to run all over the word finding all different scripts picking from each whatever 19 divisible you can find there, and then composing a script which will have all counts 19 divisible...but then it wont be divine, but man made code....due to differences in dialect or modes of recording the scripts will normaly differ in counts......this way you can make up the code based on any number you want....
Please update your knowledge on this subject if you wish to argue about it...the evidence is oppsite to what you have stated...As for the text being found that matches the expected results...Why would that worry you if it is found? Would you not be interested in preservation or authenticity of the most important of texts?
cant believe you are serious? tell me how do you know what was original number of verses? and how do you know it must be 19 divisible? who told you this...? and who told you these verses or sentences separated by verse sepatrators are divinely inspired? the separation of the scripture is clearly man made and they are irrelevent....
The only thing I am finding irrelevant is way you are researching the Scripture...The verse issue is a new fabrication that not only has no basis from the Scripture, but is in opposition to the evidence and even logic of its collection and revelation (16110-111).
how man verses there is or how many initals there is is totally irrelevant fact and clearly mumbo-jumbo that is nicely decorated to mislead from the real issues
For you it does nothing...For others it gives comfort/streangth and increases their faith.
who told you code 19 will help differentiate between hafs and warsh...?besides the difference between hafs and warsh in regards of consonant basis is almost unexistent(few minute details having almost no bearing on the meaning7message)...how text shuold be vocalised will be clear from the context and by taking into consideration the general princliples of the book or those stated elswhere in the book....the sayings of the book are mutualy or self-explanatory....
I rest my case that you argue without even studying what you are speaking about...
Hafs & Warsh have more difference than you care to realize...Just the issue of 'Maqam Ibrahim' turns the study of pilgrimage in a new direction.
Yes, there is the issue of how the text should be vocalised ...but the judge can only be the context and cross references and not the code....cause the code is neither capable of it nor it has any authority at all...
voacalization, spelling, reading, verse counts (Hafs, Warsh, Others)...You make lite of what is truly heavy.
yes but muhkam/decisive/tightened/perfected/restrained are the basis/prototype/faoundation/referent place of the book not the mutashabihat/ambiguous/equivocal/indecisive sayings/words/messages
That is why 7430 has no meaning on its own unless applied to the other verses/suras in the Scripture.
To look at it in isolation is to go in circles.
yes but nowhere we are said to interopret it by man made sources subjective sayings... the interpreation is an exclusive right of The God...and perversed hearts are described as ones folowing the ambiguos/indecisive sayings and seeking excuse/discord/misleading/confusion and seeking to interpret it....
We are all man made sources...So if I were to take your statement seriously, then no human would be allowed to study/interpret the Scripture ever.
Thus the Scripture is not for mankind, but is meant to sit in a museum and be looked at and admired.
verse stops? please how do you conclude there are any verse stops in the book of the God....and what difference it would make to the message? and that is all that counts....moreover I doubt there is any evidence that the book is consisting of verses at all.... do you think ayaat mean verses or some specific verses with separation points strictly defined? this is clearly not true...i wonder what evidences you might have fro what you are saying....please cite your evidences here or point to me the exact link to your arguments... there are plenty post and its hard to find that one to me....
And you claim that I am the subjective one!
Verses comprise the text of the Scripture...If you can't find the evidence to support that then I think it is not unreasonable to ask what qualifies you to argue about a subject like 19?
Original meaning spelling should be found....but the original separation points or enumeration have no ANY relevance...
So now you want to find the original spelling (a few paragraphs above I was accused of being subjective in hunting for text that matched a mathematical theory)...But you will share with me your methodology (are we going by the oldest is the more accurate approach?).
I have no warsh at my hands now( ill look it up when i will be at home GW) ... i have read it many times and cant remember any significant difference in the meaning of 51... whatever i think we should know the differences if theres any difference in the meaning
Good to hear you will now look at Warsh and not simply argue that there are no differences to metnion (you can look up the 8 other versions of the Quran while your going about this research).
when the meaning is the same the spelling is irrelevant
Relevant for me because I only care about what god revealed...Not what might be similar.
the knowledge you have and the tool you use is satanic not divinely inspired....
Is Satan responsible for the allignment caused in the Metonic cycle?
Is Satan reposnsible for injecting the word 19 into 7429?
Is Satan repsonsible for initialling 29 chapters/suras?
I think you make Satan proud by such a statement...
then stop paying lip service to it and allow The God to speak for Himself....
You make wild accusations but have neither the information nor the ability to back them up...Not a wise approach to take.
it would even sanctioned the traditional understanding of obey the messenger ....we are not left to guess the meanings of the messages of the book.... they are already PRECISELY explained by The God....
I like how you keep throwing in the 'obey the messenger' as a link when it is not.
It is apparant that you at this stage are still in wild conjecture, especially regarding chapter 74...But that is fine because we are all meant to find the answers when we are ready for them...
We all must respect one anothers beliefs...Is that not what the core of the message is about?
Or is intolerance now our way forward...
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Peace Layth
Also, you seem to be insinuating that the Scripture has no prophecies? Perhaps I misread 174 and 541 as prophecies when they were something else?
There might be some general prophecies ( i would rather call them laws/ways/modes of how people behave or will behave in the past, now and in future) but they must be described explicitely or clearly with the words of the God and not that you personaly and subjectively intepret it by placing your words in the mouth of The Almighty, thus imitating the traditional ulama and mulahs....
I know you are a lover of prophecies...however the scripture is lacking in classical pophecies....and most of its prophecies reffers to the happening around the Hour when there is no room for repentence....particularly there are no prophecies by exact dates and all such prophecies that people are making based on the book are simply conjecturing....
7430-35 mentions no mathematico-numerical code neither any other verse of the scripture explains it in such a way... so whether you have croos referenced it or not it doesnt really matter and people are simply lying by saying that the passage have propheciesed the code....
I havent read your article yet(please provide the link) but cross referencing 7430 to the letter or initials at the begginings of the chapter doesnt help the code s case either...these signs or letters do not say there is the code...or that nineteen is symbol of math. system embeded in the book...its only your, man-made, personal subjective interpretation of the letters/initials that is saying so....and this is not an atom better from interpretation of obey the messenger as obey Hadith..in reality you havent cross referenced it to the initials/letters but to your intepretation of it...and this is not the right attitude...
we, humans, when The Almighty is speaking, have to do nothing more but to sit down ad shut up.... and leave to The God to explain it... as 7519 goes
Moreover, it is upon US to explain it
Its not upon yourself Layth but it is upon God.... and as long as you are trying to interepret it you are but playing God....its not your duty to explain... you simply have no capacity nor authority to do it....
Referencing 7430-1 to the letters/initials is like Hadithers` attempts to justify Hadith by cross referencing obey the messenger to the verse "we have revealed to you the law and wisdom(al-kitab wal hikmah)" and claiming that Quran =kitab while Hikmah =Sunnah...
What they have cross refereced obey the messenger to are not the words of The Almighty, particulary not decisive ayaat which are basis/reffrent place of the book, but their man-made, subjective interpretation of the verse "we have revealed to you the law and wisdom(al-kitab wal hikmah)"
As i have already said, the code believers sometimes do use other verses to explain 7431 but these verses that they use are equaly if not more ambiguous from 7431 in the respect of the theme discussed...what they actually use is their man-made, subjective and personal intepretation of these verses and then they, equaly subjective, force its interpreation upon 7431 ... and they have stolen The God`s exclusive right to interpret His words...
In 174 imo The God is only quoting His prophecy that He(in the past book prior to this revealtion) have given to some people....
174 And We decreed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture(FM)...
imo 541 is describing a phase of the moon(maybe describing the passage of the time) or clefting asunder of the moon a part of the catastrophical happenings at or immediatelly before the Time of Judging...
I am not 100% sure and i would wellcome any of The Gods messages on this topic to be quoted to me...yet this is my stance according to my current knowledge
4718 So are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? For its conditions have already been met. But once it comes to them, how will they benefit from their message? (FM)
From this verse imo is pretty clear that from the moment this verse is reaveled every single minute the hour might come... and there are no prophecies to be fulfiled from then on...so all the prophecies have been fulfilled long time ago....
541 is an interesting unrestrained/ambiguous saying abused by both Coders and Hadithers... its an another striking similarity between the two...
best wishes
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Peace Layth
You have objected to my comparing the traditional interpretation of obey the messenger as obey Hadith, with your intepretation of upon it is/are nineteen as the mathematical code based on No 19...
However my objection is well justified and it glaringly makes clear how subjective Code 19 believers are ...it exposes their double criterias and standards... it clearly shows that Code 19 believers are doing the very same things which they are not allowing the others to do...you do not allow them to interpret the verse and insist on cross referencing to what is more clear precise and unambiguos, but you allow yourself to interpret 7430-1 it as you like.
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Peace
layth wrote
First of all, I have not asked anything from you or anyone else regarding accepting or rejecting what I have stated.
Havent you asked of people to accept the existence of the code 19 mathematico-numerical system embeded in the book based on your research of the counts of letters/initials and recomended them to correct the scripts based on 19 divisibility(things which The God have never ask me to do....)all these things are your invention and by proclaiming them true you are asking people to accept it....whether it is stated directly or not...
Secondly, you speak untruth when you say that I did no cross reference for 7430-35...the entire article '19-Fact or fiction?' was built on examination of the initialed chapters/suras and placing them in relation to the 19 phenomena.
the initials/letters do not say there is the code 19 embeded or upon Quran is mathematical code or correct script based on 19 divisibility or angels over the fire are symbol of the mathematical code 19.... or iddatuhum is the math. code ...It is only you who have subjectively interpreted them as such...
You have actually cross referenced 7431 to the writings of Rashad Khalifa( and other code 19 proponents) cause he was the one who made all these claims not The Almighty....
Thus you have made them and yourself a partner to The God
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Do code 19 believers believe in this messages/ayats/signs?
Obvioulsy you seem to think the answer is 'no'. But whose looking for facts when it can all be subjective reasoning?
Does you refusal to answer means that you do not believe in them?
namely that you do not believe that The God is one who explains and not humans and that He is doing it through cross/self-referencing
Here are again few verses(and there is a plenty of verses similar to these in the book) for the code 19 believers... let they ponder upon them cause by accepting the code they are at least failing to applie them, if not disbelieve, cause we know that truly/only believe in the messages of The God those who upon hearing them obey....
7519 it is upon Us to explain it
20114 do not be haste with the reading before its revelation to you is finished, and say my lord increase to me the knowledge
2189 Thus The God explain His ayats/signs/messages to men in order that they may guard themsleves
And to the divorced women belongs recompense as an obligation upon
the righteous. Thus The God explains His ayats/signs/messages to
you in order that you may understand.---" 2241-242"Does anyone of you like that he have a garden with palm trees and
grapevines, and rivers flowing beneath it, and in it for him are all
kinds of fruits, then he is afflicted with old age and his progeny is
weak, and a whirlwind with fire strikes it and it all burns? ----It is
thus that God makes clear explains for you the ayats/signs/messages that you may reflect----" 2266And those who rejected said "If only the Quran was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly. And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation. (2532-3 FM)
What is used to explain the passage are man-made sayings of Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Abdullah Arik etc...and not other passages or The God`s sayings, His exclusive representative....
You mean like your insistance that 19 is from the devil is not man made but has been inspired to you by God who teaches the Scripture?
If something is claimed to be revealed from The God to the messenger and we found it not in the great reading, then we know by default that its devils invention....
The God havent said there is the code embeded in the book, but Rashad has said it...
What are you looking for...God to speak to you directly
Zaltan This is God, there is a code imbeded in the Scripture, and it is based on the number 19.
Not to me but to the messenger.. and yes i want it to be direct and plain just like other guiding informations in the book are....otherwise every tom dick and hary may invent their code or sunnah and when objected they could simply say "you want The God to speak to you directly?"
Layth, ask yourself sincerely have you ever really left the sunnah and the religion of your ancestors? or you have simply made it a little bit modern?
In the great reading we found a plenty of details and direct explanations in regards the signs of Musa who have recieved the scripture in the past, however there are not any details in regards of its (allegedly) authenticating/convincing/faith increasing/correcting/guarding doctrine Code 19?
That is not logical and consistent....
We found in it the exact, precise and direct instructions with regard of how Saleh`s camel should be dealt with(a trial which have happened long time ago) but there are not any details and direct instructions about the Code??!!
Come on ! Use your reasoning...cause thats exactly what Code 19 believers reject....
best wishes, Zlatan
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who told you code 19 will help differentiate between hafs and warsh...?besides the difference between hafs and warsh in regards of consonant basis is almost unexistent(few minute details having almost no bearing on the meaning7message)...how text shuold be vocalised will be clear from the context and by taking into consideration the general princliples of the book or those stated elswhere in the book....the sayings of the book are mutualy or self-explanatory....
I rest my case that you argue without even studying what you are speaking about...
Hafs & Warsh have more difference than you care to realize...Just the issue of 'Maqam Ibrahim' turns the study of pilgrimage in a new direction.
The God is my witness that i have read it from cover to cover many times 2 or 3 years ago(when my kids tore some of its pages out)...I have read it 10 or 20 or 30 and maybe more times i cant recall exactly....If i recall well i sometimes used to read it 3 times a month from cover to cover....
And as i have said talking about consonant basis(vocalisation marks...) the difference in meanings are nuances or almost the same...moreover speaking about consonant
s basis(without dots and vocalistaion marks) they almost have no any difference...let alone a lot of significant differences you are talking about..their consonants basis (without both dots and vocalisation marks)differs only at few places....having no bearance on meaning toward my humble knowledge....if you have studied it please show me a single place where the difference make the difference in meaning....ttakhIdhoo or ttakhAdhoo have the same consonant basis...even the vocalistion marks that they are differing in, as i have said has no much bearing upon the meaning...."they took or take you out of position/place/stance of Abraham musallaa(not sure if warsh have it as musalla as well, will check it tonight)" has the same meaning if we are to take Abraham and/or those with him as a good example...
If this what you are reffering to.... please make numerical refference that i can know what you are reffering to...
Yes, there is the issue of how the text should be vocalised ...but the judge can only be the context and cross references and not the code....cause the code is neither capable of it nor it has any authority at all...
voacalization, spelling, reading, verse counts (Hafs, Warsh, Others)...You make lite of what is truly heavy.
If i recall well there are many arabic documents without dots and/or vocalistion marks( daily newspapers for example) ...even the students on courses or textbooks of arabic language are recomended to read the texts without dots or vovels....one who is familiar with the language should have no any difficulties....context is the judge....even in the english or any other language and/or text, that humans are reading, there is a lot of intelligent guessing based solely on context and general message of the text....
of course if one is not familiar with arabic it will not be easy to him with or without the dots and/or vocalisation marks...but to make a great issue of it and thus justify the code and claim that we are to differ between them based on 19 divisibility is to produce lies upon The God....
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http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/differences.htm
The above link is an insightfull text written by Mirgani Hamed titled Cult 19 and christian missionaries ...its an analysis of some of the "differences" between "different versions" of Quran and the resemblence of the code 19 believers and christian missionaries
best wishes
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The God havent said the counts of the initials/letters should be 19 divisible(and true they are not except for a few counts), but Rashad, Edip and & co. have said it
Do not say what you have not verified. I have looked into this subject and the result was not a few as you claim again and again.
Here`s an excerpt from my article written in the year of 26 AC*
....
I made some analyses according to simple and plain methods that could easily show does code exist or not. Datas for my analysis I took from tables with counts of initials of Abu Jamil(a code 19 proponent) www.q-zone.com ....
1.For example, if we count all the initials that crown particular chapter and if we divide its count/sum with 19 and if we analyse all 29 initialed surahs using the same method, we found that ONLY 3 surah out of 29 initialed surahs shows 19 divisible count/sum of its initials (chapters No19 Merjem , chapter No 36 ja seen,Chapter 50 Qaf). ONLY 3 out 29 ???!!! Is this a miracle??? What miracle is this???? ONLY 3 out 29 ???!!! This is on level of an everyday coincidence.
2.Similarly, people often say " In the surah No 50(surah qaf) there are 57 qafs(letter qaf), and in surah No 42(surah Shura) there are also 57 qafs, and 57+57 =114 and you see it is 19 divisible and it`s miracle!!!".
But, when we analyse other initials using the same method, none of the others "initals" (letters) show such a 19 divisibility pattern.(even in the case that Sin in the word bastaten(7/69) is corrected to Sad and Noon in 68/1 spelled out as NwN, even then we have only 3 out of 14 initials that have 19-divisible count)
So we have ONLY ONE(1) 19-divisible sum out of 14???? Is this a miracle ??? Is this a one of the graetest miracles???
3.Niaz(its actualy Edip Yuksel`s way of anylysing) analysed initals acording a method where initials are considered as a sets of initials. And he found five(5) of them 19 divisible out of 14. ....
......
This was at the year of 2000 according to the datas of some of the code 19 believers....I am just curios to know how the recounting goes/progresses and what are the newest discoveries...
best wishes, Zlatan
*AC - abbreviation- Anno Codini (used to indicate that a date comes the specified number of years after the date of Code`s birth).
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Peace Zaltan,
And as i have said talking about consonant basis(vocalisation marks...) the difference in meanings are nuances or almost the same...moreover speaking about consonant
s basis(without dots and vocalistaion marks) they almost have no any difference...let alone a lot of significant differences you are talking about..their consonants basis (without both dots and vocalisation marks)differs only at few places....having no bearance on meaning toward my humble knowledge....if you have studied it please show me a single place where the difference make the difference in meaning....I have studied them and have pointed out a few of the serious differences (such as "Qul" - a command, and "Qaal" - a fact...Such as "Itakhithu" - a command, and "Itakhathu" - a statement of fact").
I have not even touched on the differences in the 'other' versions...And they are quite numerous (such as 2191 "do not kill them at the Sacred Temple" and "do not fight them at the Sacred Temple", such as 6115 "Your Lord's words" and "Your Lord's word", such as 917 "God's Temple" and "God's tempels", etc.).
To deny the existence of these variations is to deny the truth of what is and create a false sence of security (no different to the Christians who hold on to the belief that the Bible is God's perfect word or the Jews to sing praise to the Torah as being preserved and perfected).
You also are not accurate in your comment about the dots...This issue is now past tense as documents have already come to light and been examined which used dots around the alleged time fo revealtion (see Ayman's post on this subject)...The lack of dots is a factor of the writing style and is predominant in the Kufi script even until at least two centuries after the revealtion.
namely that you do not believe that The God is one who explains and not humans and that He is doing it through cross/self-referencing
You seem to think that God doing the explaining also means He has to do the speaking?
As far as I am aware on this planet God does not communicate directly with any of us except through messengers or through inspiration...Thus it is us (humans) who will always be the transmitters (right or wrong)
If you have knowledge to the contrary then please share it...
We found in it the exact, precise and direct instructions with regard of how Saleh`s camel should be dealt with(a trial which have happened long time ago) but there are not any details and direct instructions about the Code??!!
When you hold a gun backwards, you will always be shooting yourself...
The mess with the versions of the Scripture were not created by '19' or any of the other fictional enemies you have declared to be from Satan...The versions were created by humans who were careless regarding the greatest gift that they have recieved...the words of the Almighty.
My intention was not to shake people in their faith (which is clearly what this whole subject has done), but my intention is that we get our act together and find the answers that we need to unify the Scripture back into the form it was revealed.
I am listening for solutions...I have heard nothing but static from nearly this whole group....Do you have a solution better than what I have proposed?
If you do, then share it...If you do not, then please see what you are doing and what you have become...No different from the Christians, Jews and Sunnis who believe they have the truth because they found it as such and it must be true.
There is only One God and One Scripture...I will not, God willing, be silent on this subject while even one letter of the revelation of the Almighty is in dispute.
We may part ways or be united in this task...
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Peace all,
Just some rambling thoughts in my head today
I think the concept, the abstract, the message is more important than the concrete collection of numbers. The number, I've noticed, has increased pride in people, the same trait Iblis showed to God, and we all know what happened to him. But most importantly of all, I havent seen this number or code make people more righteous in the world. Think all the time and effort involved in counting words and numbers of the book could have been spent feeding a poor person or being righteous in some other way. I do agree we need to study the book and meditate on its meanings, but I fear this code 19 has become another idol, and has inflated egos.
One thing I've learnt this past year, since coming across FM is that Islam is pro-active, not made up of mindless rituals. Islam is life, doing good works for God. If God wanted us to get tangled up in numbers and codes, then the book might have been all numbers, or there would have been a direct commandments to find a code or something.
What is the urge driving people to look for this code though? I think this question is important. Sometimes I think people are looking for a code because then they would be able to tell the future in some convoluted way. This of course I dont agree with, I dont believe the book is prophetic in a specific manner, more in a general manner, i.e - 'this is how people are, this is what they do', not 'this country will do this, and something specific will happen in this year, etc'. Another reason for people to hunt for a code may be that it would confirm the book is Divine, but that would mean they arent believers in the first place, if they feel the need to confirm a code to prove this is God's book. If after learing the message you still dont believe it is a Divine and perfect system, a way of life, then you are not a believer.
The book is merely a reminder, a guide, and increases believers in their faith. To rejecters, it increases their non-faith, their aversion. Think about that. This book isnt meant to be used to convince others about Islam, its soley for believers to make them feel better, its a mercy from God, The Most Merciful. A creative method of bringing new followers to Islam, is that if believers follow the book the way they're meant to; their actions look good to non-believers, and thats how they become interested in Islam. A mathematical code isnt going to do this, as we can see.
Only God can guide people, or convince them to see the light, its not our job to do that, so I cant think of any other motivations for people to find a hidden code in this book. I understand a big motivation is to get closer to Islam, but like I said, the best way to do that is to follow the clear commandments of God, live righteously, submit to The Lord of the Worlds and His system.
Peace.
EDIT
When I read a chapter, I take it all in, taking verses alone isnt the way the book is meant to be read in my opinion. There are parts that are repeated throughout the book, but I think the main reason for that is that whenever you pick up the book, 90% of the time whatever chapter you decide to read, you'll get the main essence always, the main examples of Musa, etc.
So anyway, after reading chapter 74 again, here is what I'm thinking today, I'm thinking that the number 19 is not what is being referred to in this chapter, but the angels themselves. And they are not a test for us, but for people in hell. This chapter is primarily about hell, not Earth.
The beginning of the chapter leads up to hell, it talks about the non-believers for a while, before we finally reach a Scorching Heat. Upon it is nineteen, which may or may not be the angels mentioned in the next verse, it could be levels for all we know. When it does talk about the angels (beings of light, with no free will), it says God made them as a test for those who rejected. God made their number, as in God made them plural, as in more than one. God made angels as a test for rejecters within the Scorching Heat.
That may be the test. Rejecters will see angels hovering above them, and choose to believe in them or not, and will wonder "What did God mean with an example such as this?". The chapter talks about how people who were given the scripture and believed in Islam (maybe even Christians/Jews) will be increased in faith, and this is because they believed in angels all along.
Its a test for rejecters, "For any among you who wishes to advance or regress". Maybe this is about going through levels of hell? Eh, I dont know, I guess I'm stretching it alot now, but I do think its worth pondering whether angels are what is being speicified here as a test, not a number.
But even for believers it is important to know that "none know your Lord's soldiers/hosts except Him". This is another thing that points me towards thinking this chapter is about hell and angels, not numbers and Earth.
/end long ramble
peace beatnik
nice work/approach..just a note.... fitnah may mean torment and/or punishement and that would fit in your understanding pretty well...
also reading uddatuhum(their equipement or readiness-strong severe strictly obeying the God`s commands of torturing 666)instead of idattahum also fit nicely ....just like reading idatuhum(a single d)(promising/threat of them or their threat/promise would fit nicely into your thinking....
fitnah may also mean confusion or excuse ... the rejecters are bewildered and their attention is caught by a minute details of the doctrine( why exactly 19 of the angels? or how 19 angels over the fire are suposed to increase the faith) instead with the essence of the message....
whichever it may be, out of these more holistical meanings, its sure its not about some Code 19 -a hidden message/sign that is to come out and warn(741-2) as interpreted by Rashad and some of his proponents!?
The book of the God is simply not a book of hidden and misterious messages, but a book of clear, plain and obvious warnings ....
Code 19 is but a burden placed upon this book by a man of Sufi background- Rashad...He has never left the faith of his ancestors....
best wishes, Zlatan
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please show me say a few examples where the code can help to resolve say hafs - warsh differences?
You mean other than the examples of 'BaSta' and 'Sinwan' (which you must have overlooked in your haste).
I have checked baStah(769) and Sinwaan (134) and they are spelled the same way in Hafs and Warsh...(btw i dont undertstand what correction of Sinwaan reffers to?)
Can you then show few examples of hafs-warsh differences that code might resolve?
p.s. Have you maybe thought of of taskent copy(or any other) correcting hafs and warsh? Then again your wrong.... the correction is rather based on subjectivity and not on a scientific code because of assured existences of many counts which are not 19 divisible....
As i have said you may travel the world searching for the variants that will give most 19 divisible hits....and you may even make corrections to the text based solely on conjecture that all counts must be 19 divisible inspite many of them clearly being not - a fact confirmed time and again by proponents as well as opponents. Thus you can make all the counts to be 19 divisible, however, its only that in that case it will be man-made code not God- made....and that way you can make code based on any number...say for example code 8...
Here`s the verse that you can (ab)use(as described in 37)
6917 And the Angels will be on its borders, and eight will carrie the throne of your Lord, above them...
Here you have a key word for your code e.i. eight or 8...you also have a prophecy of a day...so calculate the summ of gematrical values of the verses` letters or use verse numbers in this or that variant or do something similar to get the exact date( after all Quran is full of similar prophecies isnt it?). And finaly here you have the word arsh/throne that is pregnant in meaning and can mean authority... There you have it... code 8 as mark or stamp of The God given authority for- you name it!
This is because The God is communicating with us different ways not only through words...
best wishes
Zlatan
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Peace be upon you,
Trust in what has descended upon you and what has descended upon those before you.
What is the count of "19"? In the system of numbers, there is only 1-9, 0 is "no things".
In the system used by the ancient Kemetens, Cannanites, and others, they had a system that goes like this.
0 = the subjective realm where all things come from (Amen)
Next comes the objective realm
1-9 = the hidden faculties/controllers/malaika
10 = the illusion of this world/the physical realm
Anyway, in keeping in line with the topic, the count of 1-9 refers to the HIDDEN OBJECTIVE realm.
This HIDDEN realm is a trial for rejectors, they cannot understand why the same things keep happening to them, they do not understand that the God's controllers/commander(malaika) do not flinch in executing the commands of the God.
Those of us who understand the hidden faculties that GOVERN life increase in faith by trusting in the UNSEEN.
I find it hard to believe that the "19" topic relates to this Rashad Khalifa theroy that came thousands of years after the initial message. 1000, years ago, these verses had to mean something to human beings, it was not to be a future "fitna" of which they had no understanding. This was not a meaningless verse to those after the revelation but before the discovery of some "code".
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Peace
the entire article '19-Fact or fiction?' was built on examination of the initialed chapters/suras and placing them in relation to the 19 phenomena.
The article still exists on-line...Show me how ignorant I am of mathematics and reason by tearing it apart.
Your article 19 fact or fiction ? time and again proves that belief in Code 19 is not based on the objective study but rather upon utter ignorance or failing to apply a basic principles of science of the statistic....
I have read your article and, in short(and i am going to publish a more detail response God willing) here is why yours and Rashad`s study of initials are defective
Not only the counts are incorrect but there is also a serious error in the method of analysis or how the counts are generated....
You have tried to confirm or verify the counts of Rashad and havent objected to the method of analysis of initials...that is, you havent noticed the defective and misleading way how some initials are joined or their counts calculated together....Namely counts ta-ha, taseen meem, ta seen, taseen meem were joined together with the count of letter ha(one of 5 letters at the beggining of chapter 19) and this is contrary to the way how others initials are grouped or their counts or totals calculated.....
This serious mistake shows that you are not qualified for the studies of such kind...And that you neither posses updated knowledge(as you have so proudly objected to me)...
Have you checked the claim 33 of the study of your close companion Running like zebras which is 10 years old now, and which you have even linked your article to, you would know about this defect which is humbly admited even by Edip Yuksel the master of Code 19 apologetic himself....
When the errors in the Khalifas counts which you have also found and/or this mistake in method is taken into consideration the significance(of actually aready insigificant discovery) totally diminishes ....and does not remotely suggest existence of code 19
The way how you have spelled out the conclusion or the result of your study is also significant of significant incompetency on your side to competently judge and estimate Code 19....
Out of a total of 29 initialed chapters, 15 have been positively confirmed in this paper as complying with the research submitted by Dr. Rashad Khalifa over 20 years ago.
The results of the paper at the time concluded that 15 out of 29 initialed Chapters were a ?match? for the mathematical count of the letters,
It is not 15 counts that you have found 19 divisible(and thats probably why you have objected my claims that only few counts are 19 divisible) but 7 out of 14.... (initals of 15 surahs are joined into 7 counts) .....(actualy only 5 were 19 divisible... thats because of 1. your count of sad was incorrect and 2. ta ha, ta seen meem , ta seen, ha set/count that is generated subjectively)
One could easily positively confirm all of 29 chapters( using several positive ways of analising) by adding up the counts of all letters and try this method by including or not bismilahs and/or occurence of initial themselves or not or some mixture of it.... 19 divisible count that includes all the chapters and initials could be easily found but the significance wouldnt be high....the probability of geting 19 divisibility would range from 1/19 to 1/1 .... and thats not significant, let alone miraculous....
When we take into consideration that sets/surahs counts were incorrectly or inconsistently joined to form a count we are left with 11 out of 29 chapters or 10 out of 29 or basicaly 5 out of 14 counts...i say 5 and not 6( and 10 and not 11) beacause the 19 divisible count of sad is achived by or based on making the correction on the text that is analysed or upon error in counting which you and/or Rashad have made(chapter 7 have 98 sads not 97)...
And the counting based on altered text can not be accepted cause then one can (even unconsciously ) generate the sign/miracle(based on any number not only on 19) by choosing and picking upon from other numerous scripts whenever the count does not conform to the researchers preconcieved conclusions in regards of by which number count should be divisible...(Nevertheless, even with count of sad being arteficialy 19 divisible theres no proof for the code)
So, as i have mentioned in an analysis above we are left with five(5) 19 divisible counts out of 14 counts ....and this is a result of 30 years of study and all that is based on using the method of analysis choosen by code 19 proponents (which gives most of 19 divisible results)......and there are numerous others methods(see one of my posts above which are more simple intuitive and logical....) resulting in even worse results and thus drasticaly decreasing the already low, and well inside of probability, significance...
best wishes
