On intuition and false prophets
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Yeah I understand FreedomStands. I am still figuring out myself on these matters. And why God would set up a universe like this and still call Itself most compassionate, merciful, wise and just. Feels like actions and words have trouble matching up a lot of the time, right?
Peace.
In my case, I believe it is because God is literally those things. For example, only God can literally know what someone else is feeling or has access to that experience or information, whereas we are always cut off we can never truly be "compassionate" in its literal definition. Likewise, any "mercy" that comes is ultimately from God, so that makes God literally the only "merciful" plus God could make things even worse than they already are, which is another "mercy". Whatever "justice" there is and whatever "wisdom" also, solely are invented by God, so that puts God in the position of literally being those things.
I write about it a bit here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607580.0
and maybe a bit here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607564.0
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Freedom, you are free (great surprise) to take life as rape or to take life as comunion. As eaters, we are communers, as breathers we are communers, as sweaters we are communers. Shy should we understand that sweat is extracted from us, that viruses and parasites rape us, etc. etc.? Is it no better to thin that life and existence is a great sharing experience, tht we are all one and love each other and therefore exist from one to another, that we are no alone or unwanted... Cannibalism is mabe not the best nourishment and unnecessary since we can eat and "rape" the whole universe or at least let the whole universe feed on us. Adn in that sense, yes, rape is the permanent state, but the difference between rape and love is consent, is it not?
Salaam
Yes, but we haven't given consent.
I did not give consent for there to be troubles in the world or misery or evil.
I did not give consent that I should be harmed or that I should require these things.
These things were forced on me.
That is why people who come with messages of hope and softness seem to me to be lying to themselves and others.
Did the ground give consent that we walk on it? Did the trees give consent that we cut them down? Did we give consent to die?
All of it is forced on us, that is why rape seems more appropriate a term than love.
Where is the love?
If God loves in any normal definition of the world, would the child be born deformed? Would evilness even exist? Would the diseases be put in people and make them suffer immensely? Would madness be so prevalent? What kind of love is that? It is no love at all.
Not only that, but we were made almost powerless to help ourselves, we are dependent constantly, always in need.
Would your friend or lover do that to you? Would your friend or lover kill your parents, fill you with disease, give you deformed children, make you witness horrors?
Certainly not, by any normal definitions of the world love.
Someone who loves you, would not hurt you, or leave you to be hurt, but would prevent it. You are simply not loved.
518 "And (both) the Jews and the Christians say "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all)."
Come to terms with the truth. The truth is that you are the creation of God, and God can do whatever God wants to do and there is none to stop God. You are expendable, and God is not in need of anything. You're part of one particular piece of artwork, and you can be replaced in a moment with something even better.
4738 "Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold . And whoever withholds only withholds from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."
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518 "And (both) the Jews and the Christians say "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones." Say "Why then does He punish you for your sins?" Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all).
Basically then Allah is saying that if He really loved the human beings and considered them as His children, He would not punish them. Hmm. I am not sure on what to say on this.
He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills? Wow. In a way FreedomStands is right on his idea on this.
I think you guys heard my criticism regarding the Quran earlier. Here is another verse deserving criticism of this god who apparently sent the Quran. This god is by no way Most Compassionate, Merciful, Wise and Just, because there are many people who are apparently better than this god. We are like toys to this god, to be rewarded and punished according to His will (or whims, the way I am seeing it).
I know a God does have an outmost power like this, and for many of us who are unaware if the grand design do feel like this about the world. Hence this is another reason why I keep searching for spiritual truths which hopefully resonate with me somehow. One thing though, just saying, I do not trust the Quran's current standard translation. I dont know which person can read such verses and feel uplifted, except to think "well its all a test anyway, and the Hereafter is the real world" or "we should be grateful for the existing love and blessings in this life". The second point I agree with myself, but not in the context of accepting the Quran the way it is written as well.
Peace.
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Basically then Allah is saying that if He really loved the human beings and considered them as His children, He would not punish them. Hmm. I am not sure on what to say on this.
He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills? Wow. In a way FreedomStands is right on his idea on this.
I think you guys heard my criticism regarding the Quran earlier. Here is another verse deserving criticism of this god who apparently sent the Quran. This god is by no way Most Compassionate, Merciful, Wise and Just, because there are many people who are apparently better than this god. We are like toys to this god, to be rewarded and punished according to His will (or whims, the way I am seeing it).
I know a God does have an outmost power like this, and for many of us who are unaware if the grand design do feel like this about the world. Hence this is another reason why I keep searching for spiritual truths which hopefully resonate with me somehow. One thing though, just saying, I do not trust the Quran's current standard translation. I dont know which person can read such verses and feel uplifted, except to think "well its all a test anyway, and the Hereafter is the real world" or "we should be grateful for the existing love and blessings in this life". The second point I agree with myself, but not in the context of accepting the Quran the way it is written as well.
Peace.
I've always been right, at least based on the mainstream interpretations of the Qur'an, that God is plainly the source of all the harm(evil) in existence (according to the Qur'an translations, and Bible even, and Vedas), and coming to terms with the truth of nature being harsh and not cuddly is part of the Surrender.
The fact is, things are bad, and there isn't much we can do about it, the best we can do is try to make things pleasant for ourselves if we can and avoid much trouble. Part of that includes doing good, so that you don't contribute to seeing more evil or evil by your own hands.
I too am puzzled by people who talk of a loving cuddly world, it is like they are delusional or something. I also find it curious that people, being unable to face the harsh reality, reject reality as a whole just because evil exists, they deny that all information was generated by an Ultimate Cause.
Everyone turns towards some kind of other hope, some kind of savior. Even the Buddhists turn away from suffering and put their hope in certain practices.
I don't have any hope whatsoever. I was born in hell, and if I suffer, there is none who can save me, and if I feel any pleasure, then it was of no merit of my own that I was given anything good.
I work to do good because I hate evil and evilness, and don't want to contribute to suffering, so I try to make things good in-front of my own eyes and to my own ears, by doing beautiful things and being kind to people and alleviating their troubles when I can or making them happy. I don't do it for God, but because I hate seeing suffering and troubles.
The worst thing a person can do is lie, it seems, and to give false hopes, to tell people there is a bridge where there is no bridge, that there is an escape when there is no escape.
False Hope is attributed in the Qur'an to Shaitan, the enemy of humanity, who even from his early encounter with Adam offered a solution where there was none.
?I will lead them astray and fill them with false hopes. I will command them and they will cut off cattle?s ears. I will command them and they will change Allah?s creation.? Anyone who takes satan as his protector in place of Allah has clearly lost everything.? (Surat an-Nisa?, 119)
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I've always been right, at least based on the mainstream interpretations of the Qur'an, that God is plainly the source of all the harm(evil) in existence (according to the Qur'an translations, and Bible even, and Vedas), and coming to terms with the truth of nature being harsh and not cuddly is part of the Surrender ...
Did you even read Sreh 479 30, &c.]!?
The worst thing a person can do is lie, ...
Lying about G-D is even worse (in retribution)!
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The Quran is a contradictory book in a number of ways. Which is why I said earlier that I do not trust the current translation of the Quran to depend on living my life on this earth and on areas of the Hereafter.
Peace.
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The Quran is a contradictory book in a number of ways.
I beg to differ.
Which is why I said earlier that I do not trust the current translation of the Quran to depend on living my life on this earth and on areas of the Hereafter.
You don't seem to be aware of the logical contradiction in your statements and implications of your own beliefs!
First, you confidently testified against the Quran claiming it's "a contradictory book in a number of ways"!
But then you admitted you can't even read and/or understand its original language! -
First, you confidently testified against the Quran claiming it's "a contradictory book in a number of ways"!
But then you admitted you can't even read and/or understand its original language!Um, I didn't say that.
What I meant is that the way the Quran has been translated, or it's current method of translation on relying on Arabic dictionaries, produce meanings of verses which one time says one thing, another time something else. Which is why I don't trust it when mainstream Arabic dictionaries are being used.
Man of Faith has better ways of translating the verses. Actually I am not sure on how he is doing it, but the meanings he is taking out of his method of translation sound better and less contradictory.
Peace.
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Um, I didn't say that.
Um, I guess denial ain't just a river in Egypt!
What I meant is that the way the Quran has been translated, or it's current method of translation on relying on Arabic dictionaries, produce meanings of verses which one time says one thing, another time something else. Which is why I don't trust it when mainstream Arabic dictionaries are being used.
Ahok!
The Quran is a contradictory book in a number of ways.
The rest is reasonable.
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hicham9, aren't you getting what I am saying? I suspect that the Classical Arabic of the Quran has not been translated properly. The Arabic dictionaries do not quite match up to what ancient Arabic stood for initially. Hence due to problems in translation from that ancient Arabic, we have now a book which contains contradictory statements often.
Man of Faith says the Classical Arabic must have worked like ancient languages, where each letter had its own meaning, and the collection of letters produced a meaning for a word. Which is how he has been translating (I am not sure how he has been figuring out the individual letter meanings), but whatever meaning he is getting out of the verses, they make more sense than the existing Quran's translation.
I am sorry if I offend anybody here for saying so. I myself have grown up as a quite devout Muslim, so figuring out this journey has not been easy for me at all. And more so I am not interested in simply raising people's hairs for the sake of it.
Peace.
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Okay. But then I am liking what Man of Faith has been presenting. At least his version does not contain rigid societal rules for government, certain penalties for crimes, strict gender roles, and a God who is too contradictory in His nature. Which is what I have been appreciating about it.
Peace.
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I believe there are a number of spiritual messengers that have come on earth, before our time, during our time, and would be after our time as well. So whoever suits with our intuition more, we should follow them.
Following just one messenger, that too dogmatically, is not a good idea for a society's people to be actually progressive and keep up with the times as civilization advances. My opinion only.
Peace.
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I believe there are a number of spiritual messengers that have come on earth, before our time, during our time, and would be after our time as well. So whoever suits with our intuition more, we should follow them. Following just one messenger, that too dogmatically, is not a good idea for a society's people to be actually progressive and keep up with the times as civilization advances. My opinion only.
Ok, thank you for sharing your current understanding.
The messenger (of G-D) I follow is the Quran.
And, whosoever obeys the messenger has thereby obeyed G-D.
Be sound.
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Basically then Allah is saying that if He really loved the human beings and considered them as His children, He would not punish them. Hmm. I am not sure on what to say on this.
He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills? Wow. In a way FreedomStands is right on his idea on this.
I think you guys heard my criticism regarding the Quran earlier. Here is another verse deserving criticism of this god who apparently sent the Quran. This god is by no way Most Compassionate, Merciful, Wise and Just, because there are many people who are apparently better than this god. We are like toys to this god, to be rewarded and punished according to His will (or whims, the way I am seeing it).
I know a God does have an outmost power like this, and for many of us who are unaware if the grand design do feel like this about the world. Hence this is another reason why I keep searching for spiritual truths which hopefully resonate with me somehow. One thing though, just saying, I do not trust the Quran's current standard translation. I dont know which person can read such verses and feel uplifted, except to think "well its all a test anyway, and the Hereafter is the real world" or "we should be grateful for the existing love and blessings in this life". The second point I agree with myself, but not in the context of accepting the Quran the way it is written as well.
Peace.
Salam Samira,
You have not understood the context of the verse,
Some people claim that we are blessed people and closer to God and so loved ones, its a common verse that says judgement is common for all from a JUST GOD, even its muslims/jews/christians/ or whomsoever, who else can say this except a enlightened person.
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The Quran is a contradictory book in a number of ways. Which is why I said earlier that I do not trust the current translation of the Quran to depend on living my life on this earth and on areas of the Hereafter.
Peace.
If the Qur'an said what people want to hear, which is that God is not the source of all evil, then it is lying.
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Did you even read Sreh 479 30, &c.]!?
Lying about G-D is even worse (in retribution)!
Have you read 478
"Wherever you may be, death will overtake you - even though you be in towers raised high. "Yet, when a good thing happens to them, some say, "This is from God," whereas when evil befalls them, they say, "This is from thee !? Say "All is from God." What, then, is amiss with these people that they are in no wise near to grasping the truth of what they are told?"
That is the verse right before the one you're quoting, it clearly states that "All is from God" and tells us to say so, then it repeats what the foolish people who "are in no wise near to grasping the truth" say which is "Good is from God, evil is from humans".
Here is another for you
5722
No evil befalls on the earth nor in your own self, but it is in a book before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to Allah1049
Say "It is not within my power to avert harm from, or bring benefit to, myself, except as God may please. For all people a term has been set when the end of their term approaches, they can neither delay it by a single moment, nor hasten it."So are you claiming that Allah is not the sole power that controls all harm and benefit to anyone and all that is in creation? Are you claiming there are other powers at work? Then at the very least you're claiming Allah is passively allowing evil to persist, merely "allowing" the children to be raped and whatever, which is still evil.
I am stating "All is from God", and that "whatever evil/misfortune/calamity befalls anyone is from God, brought into existence by God" that God is to be feared and can do anything terrible freely and is completely unfettered, and that God controls everything.
If the Qur'an says otherwise, the Qur'an means nothing to me, but luckily the Qur'an confirms the truth that I'm stating anyway based on observing reality.
For example, if the Qur'an said there is no suffering in the world, then it is lying, but it doesn't say that.
I like the Qur'an so much because it says the right things, it doesn't seem to lie at all, it is very straightforward, and it says that God alone is the sole power, in control of everything from setting up your adversaries to making people evildoers made for hell like fish are made for water, and that Allah is responsible for absolutely everything, down to guiding and misguiding people, and that you're not special but can easily be replaced.
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Basically then Allah is saying that if He really loved the human beings and considered them as His children, He would not punish them. Hmm. I am not sure on what to say on this.
He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills? Wow. In a way FreedomStands is right on his idea on this.
I think you guys heard my criticism regarding the Quran earlier. Here is another verse deserving criticism of this god who apparently sent the Quran. This god is by no way Most Compassionate, Merciful, Wise and Just, because there are many people who are apparently better than this god. We are like toys to this god, to be rewarded and punished according to His will (or whims, the way I am seeing it).
I know a God does have an outmost power like this, and for many of us who are unaware if the grand design do feel like this about the world. Hence this is another reason why I keep searching for spiritual truths which hopefully resonate with me somehow. One thing though, just saying, I do not trust the Quran's current standard translation. I dont know which person can read such verses and feel uplifted, except to think "well its all a test anyway, and the Hereafter is the real world" or "we should be grateful for the existing love and blessings in this life". The second point I agree with myself, but not in the context of accepting the Quran the way it is written as well.
Peace.
Salamun Alaikum.
Allah guides to the straight route whomever He wills and He deviates whomever He wills.
He makes suffer whomever He wills and He forgives whomever He wills.
If He wished the people of the world would not have fought wars. But that?s not what He willed. He does whatever He wills.
He creates life out of lifeless, and He takes dead from the living and He gives everyone a appointed life-span ? some 100 years ? some 100 secs ? based on His will.
He gives Kingdom to whomever He wills and takes away kingdom from whomever He wills, and He gives provision to whomever He wills beyond measure.And still Allah is the Wise, the Merciful, the Just.
How?
Allah is wise because through the trials of disease and suffering, war and terror, destruction and death, Allah makes known the faithful, He makes known the patient and He takes the witness (martyrs). Allah knows if everyone were given a life of comfort and a knowledge of Allah ? everyone would like to be pious. But the true faithful is the one who remains strongest on faith even in face of the most horrendous of trials.
Allah is Merciful, only because He prescribed Mercy upon Himself. He has absolutely no obligation to show anyone any mercy in any form what-so-ever. But, still by His mercy the universe comes into being, life springs out of no-where, birds sing, flowers bloom, humans love. Because He is Merciful - even in spite of all the mischiefs and tragedy in the world when we look at the face of our children ? we feel hope and inspiration to keep the struggle on.
Allah is Just ? because He has given each of us the ?Free will?. Although it is He who writes our destiny, each of us have the option to exercise the ?choice? ? to earn what we deserve. Those whom Allah deviates ? get deviated by their own choice, and those whom Allah guide ? takes guidance by their own choice. Once the ?illusion? of life is over and all souls are gathered together the combined perspective of all creation will offer perfect justice for all of us. Whoever chose to remain grateful and faithful by being righteous will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. But whoever willfully chose to repress faith and engage in wrongdoing will have their due share of condemnation from Allah, the angels and mankind all together. No one will be wronged by a hair?s breadth.
The analogy of Allah is to that of a novelist ? who exercises 100% freedom over how He will plot His novel ? a tragedy or a comedy. Blessed are those, who irrespective of the plot, choose to be on the right side of the story. They are the winners ? doesn?t matter if they died fighting a war for a just cause at the age of 21 or died of a deadly disease while trying to serve in an epidemic zone. And those who are the villains in the story - be they the mighty Pharaoh or the hated ISIS - they are doomed to painful suffering - they will be in it permanently.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman