Ramadhan = ?
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Peace,
I have had a look at the thread by "noshirk".
The argument has merit as indeed the word "qadr" can mean "measure" and and timing of September is when the rains hit the dry/hot earth (Ramadhan?).
What I don't find agreement with is the definition of "shahr" as "full moon" since the word is meant as an indication of time (the fasting of 2 months does not mean the fasting of 2 full moons - rather it is 60 days). If we were to speak about the moon, its cycle begins with the crescent (old palm sheath) and not the full moon - 3639.
I also agree with the 4 restricted months beginning in the Spring Equinox.
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Peace,
I have had a look at the thread by "noshirk".
The argument has merit as indeed the word "qadr" can mean "measure" and and timing of September is when the rains hit the dry/hot earth (Ramadhan?).
What I don't find agreement with is the definition of "shahr" as "full moon" since the word is meant as an indication of time (the fasting of 2 months does not mean the fasting of 2 full moons - rather it is 60 days). If we were to speak about the moon, its cycle begins with the crescent (old palm sheath) and not the full moon - 3639.
I also agree with the 4 restricted months beginning in the Spring Equinox.
Peace Bro,
and thanks for adding to the confusion confused
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LOL
The silver lining is that most threads I have looked at now agree that the "Restricted Months" begin with the Spring Equinox and last for 4 months...That is a breakthrough is establishing our synchronization with God's calender system that protects nature and people.
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LOL
The silver lining is that most threads I have looked at now agree that the "Restricted Months" begin with the Spring Equinox and last for 4 months...That is a breakthrough is establishing our synchronization with God's calender system that protects nature and people.
I agree sun
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If we were to go with noshirk's view - what would be the translation of Ramadan "Scorching or Scorched" or something different?
I wanted to answer you on this about the verse of Quran on Ramadan, and the word shahr.
If I recall, in the verse, it uses 3idatun for the period, not shahr, so I am still unsure about the meaning for shahr, is it a period too? if it were, why not then say akmilu (or atimmu?) alshahr, instead of al3idatu?
In programming, in C++ they got that thing about overloading operators, by extending their function, so a marker can also signify a period, and so Ramadan could both mean the beginning of a period and the period itself.
and strictly, phonetically, it is not Ramadan, but Ramadhan, with a dh not a d )
in September, there is no scorching heat, nor in December, so scorching might have nothing to do with it? scorched might be better, as that will be the result in September at the end of the heat period where indeed the place will look golden from the lack of water with the colour of the dried up vegetation... ready for the rains for relief.
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Peace,
I have had a look at the thread by "noshirk".
The argument has merit as indeed the word "qadr" can mean "measure" and and timing of September is when the rains hit the dry/hot earth (Ramadhan?).
What I don't find agreement with is the definition of "shahr" as "full moon" since the word is meant as an indication of time (the fasting of 2 months does not mean the fasting of 2 full moons - rather it is 60 days). If we were to speak about the moon, its cycle begins with the crescent (old palm sheath) and not the full moon - 3639.
I also agree with the 4 restricted months beginning in the Spring Equinox.
if sawm is during 3 days it make sense!--> the fasting of 2 full moons 2 x 3 days during the full moon
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Salaam All
I have to do some remarks concerning what i have read here
1- Meaning of Ramadhan
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( ةWell, we have two possible meanings for ramadhan. One is the "scorching heat" and other is first cloud/rain after heat.
Ramadan in spetember fit with the second one.2- Ripes dates
according to this link (http//www.eurobroker.fr/dattes/) , harvest of date is between october and december.t
i verified information with specialists in north africa. they say harvest is october and november.if we consider the ripe indication of quran, we are more near december
and 9 month before, we are near equinox (leilatou el qadr) of march.we have also another argument (that can be considered as week).
introduction of Gospel of luke is interesting. It give an information confirmed by quran that i found nowhere elseLuke 1-20
20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."this is the sign given to Zachariah.
and this sign (Zachariah could not speak) is confirmed in two verses341 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn.?
1910 He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?this part of gospel, enlighted by quran, indicates also that
Luke Chapter 1
26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.Thus, we would have two "angels" descent (then two leylatou el qadr) seperated by six months.
Now, readers have to note that there is clear contradiction in quran for verses 19-10 and 3-41 i have mentionned.
It seems that Allah dont know that the sign (not be able to speak) is for three nights or three days.
The only way to remove the contradiction is to consider that Zachariah was fasting from speaking because fasting is
1926 ?So eat and drink and be content. If you see any human being, then say ?I have vowed A SAUM for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.??So starting with ripe dates,, seems that we found a prophet making saoum of three days in september.
3-is islam a new religion ?
i find comfortable to find similarty between quran and older books.
some other understandings leads quite to the conclusion that islam is a new religion4-What to do in ashor haram ?
this is a serious problem whether if and if not we consider Ramadan one of them.I have and obstacle to enter is such complicated discussion since i have difficulties in english language
however, il will summarize my opinion.Siyyam is spiritural retreat. as 2-185 says
....then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in MASAJID...
so devotion is masajid (whatever is) are required during day.Saum is for thre days= length in with full moon appears full.
Saum is individual and occurs in ramadhan
Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
Hajj has two objectives. Nourish soul and body of poors.
So to give food (safa=livestck) and drinks (marwa).
and to give spiritual food by teachnings and debate.3 kinds of particpants
- Hojjajs (speakers/ debators) who come with arguments (hojajs)
- Those making Omra (simple Listeners). They come to learn and hace to make saoum (no speak during lessons)
- thos who assist for commercial purposes (9-19).
so hajj occurs 4 times a year, around equinoxes and solstices. But only ramadhan is for individual saoum.
Now, i will try to give a traduction to one of the more complicated verses in quran 2-196
this is complete verse 2-196
this is monotheist translation
2196 And conclude the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are secure, then whoever makes the visit, but decides to continue until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten - this is for those whose family is not resident at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.and accomplish Hajj and Omra but if you are prevented, then try to obtain what is possible of guidance.
Hady is reffering to teachings of words of Allah.
don't raise your heads until the lessons reach his target (that is the mind)
Whoever of you is ill or has an ailment to his head, then he may redeem by Saoum (spiritual retreat/individual study) or giving a charity or a Nosk (something that make you more nearby to god)
amana is same rrot as moomin and no relation with security. Aim of Hajj is to give amana (that is teaching of god) to faithfull carriers of the message.
so verse is saying to who come to learn (making omra) to search for residual teachings (had'y) after the "official courses".and if there is no possibilty for residual teaching then make a spiritual retreat for 7 days when returning home.
I suppose this to assimilate all what have been stuided during Hajj.
So, if ramadan is only three days (please note that the there days mention), the hajj periode is saoum three days for "listeners" + 7 personal revision days when returning home.this is for those whose family/people is not resident at Masjid Haram (the place wenhere lessons are given)
So 7 seven residual days of individual study are not required for "listeners making only omra" whose family/people didnt assist lessons.
Why ?
simple because i suppose they have the duty to report to their people/family what that have heard in Hajj at their return.and take prevention/refuge to Allah, and know that God is severe in retribution.
so, according to my understanding
Saoum/ramadan is required each year for 3 days.
Hajj is each quarter. it is forum/seminar with debators (hojjajs) and students (making omra) . 3 days official lessons (and saoum for listeners) + 7 days of individual study for students or report to absent people w )en returnning home.and of course, Hajj can occurs also in ramadhan.
Peace
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Peace
Saum is for thre days= length in with full moon appears full.
Saum is individual and occurs in ramadhan
Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
Hajj has two objectives. Nourish soul and body of poors.
So to give food (safa=livestck) and drinks (marwa).
and to give spiritual food by teachnings and debate.What about if we put all pieces together, first you have a start --> laylat alqadar during Ramadhan which is a deep study of the Book, then after come hajj (could be debate) to debate what you have been studying!!!
Question is why
This is meant for developed societies learn/criticize/debate and than choose the best option- this would answer question about abortions, bio ethic, societal problems, etc etc...
How many debates do you see in so called Muslim countries? It is like that full stop , no why no how we don't care even what you think!!! This leads to the situation we are facing today in muslim countries.
At the contrary "developed" countries have the party meeting takinkg place in late summer to debate about societal problems in France for example they use to call it Summer University
https//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit%C3%A9_d'%C3%A9t%C3%A9
Peace
- this would answer question about abortions, bio ethic, societal problems, etc etc...
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You only fast a few days for health reasons though right? Do you do the charity thing to replace the fasts or do them with separations so that you make up the 28 or 30 fasts?
Nope, not anymore, since I realised that in fact Ramadan fast is between 3 and 10 days, no more.
See other threads/posts about the argument for this.
Peace
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Nope, not anymore, since I realised that in fact Ramadan fast is between 3 and 10 days, no more.
See other threads/posts about the argument for this.
Peace
Why wouldn't that tradition persist? Why would it become a whole month later? It would seem that people are eager to reduce things and would have been in the past, I don't know how they could be doing this tradition within the lifetime of the Prophet and then it changes to a whole month and for what purpose? There is no precedent set in other religions of this practice, it is uniquely a Muslim practice of a month long fasting period, it seems to not have suddenly been invented at a later date but has been continuous since at least a pretty early time. The Hadith did not have a widespread impact on the whole Muslim world until relatively recently, even though those traditions were floating around most people didn't know them very well or have access to the books for centuries upon centuries (and most were illiterate to top it off for long periods), yet fasting for a whole month is a tradition found across the Muslim world for a very long time, moon to moon.
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Are you being rhetorical?
there is no point arguing if you have not read the rationale based on Quran.
I'm not arguing I think. Can you give me the twitter or short version of the rationale based on the Qur'an?
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Why wouldn't that tradition persist? Why would it become a whole month later? It would seem that people are eager to reduce things and would have been in the past, I don't know how they could be doing this tradition within the lifetime of the Prophet and then it changes to a whole month and for what purpose? There is no precedent set in other religions of this practice, it is uniquely a Muslim practice of a month long fasting period, it seems to not have suddenly been invented at a later date but has been continuous since at least a pretty early time. The Hadith did not have a widespread impact on the whole Muslim world until relatively recently, even though those traditions were floating around most people didn't know them very well or have access to the books for centuries upon centuries (and most were illiterate to top it off for long periods), yet fasting for a whole month is a tradition found across the Muslim world for a very long time, moon to moon.
It does still persist. September 22-23. This is when jews celebrate yom kippur this year. They fast for 25 hours.
Peace
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@FS, the Arabic word ma3dudat refers to a small amount in Arabic between 3 and 10, ayaman ma3dudat, 3 to 10 days.
What is all this stuff though
O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil). 2183
2184 Fast for a specified number of days, but if any one among you is ill or on a journey, let him fast the same number of days later. For those who can fast only with extreme difficulty, there is a way to compensatethe feeding of a needy person. But he who does good of his own accord shall be well rewarded; but to fast is better for you, if you only knew.
2185 The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.
2186
AND IF My servants ask thee about Me - behold, I am near; I respond to the call of him who calls, whenever he calls unto Me let them, then, respond unto Me, and believe in Me, so that they might follow the right way.2187 IT IS lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the fast they are as a garment for you, and you are as a garment for them. God is aware that you would have deprived yourselves of this right, and so He has turned unto you in His mercy and removed this hardship from you. Now, then, you may lie with them skin to skin, and avail yourselves of that which God has ordained for you, and eat and drink until you can discern the white streak of dawn against the blackness of night, and then resume fasting until nightfall; but do not lie with them skin to skin when you are about to abide in meditation in houses of worship. These are the bounds set by God do not, then, offend against them - it is thus that God makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might remain conscious of Him.
3335
VERILY, for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves , and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remember God unceasingly for them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.589
GOD will not take you to task for oaths which you may have uttered without thought, but He will take you to task for oaths which you have sworn in earnest. Thus, the breaking of an oath must be atoned for by feeding ten needy persons with more or less the same food as you are wont to give to your own families, or by clothing them, or by freeing a human being from bondage; and he who has not the wherewithal shall fast for three days . This shall be the atonement for your oaths whenever you have sworn . But be mindful of your oaths!' Thus God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might have cause to be grateful.595
O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. God forgives what is past for repetition God will exact from him the penalty. For God is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.al-Baqarah 2185
So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting,
the biggest relief in life is simply coming to terms with reality, surrendering to the truth of things, it seems easy but when Allah has put people in blissful delusions there is nothing that can wake them up from their dream, the favor of Allah is the awakening of people, but we wake up to the truth of things which is not all that pleasant, but we hope and pray to Allah that we're given the best in this life and the next and any of our experiences, and there is no guarantee for any of us that we will attain it, but we strive hard to make goodness in-front of us always and hope that Allah saves us from trouble and suffering, and that is the way of the Prophets, and the religion of the angels
when I say religion of the angels, we just have a few clues but that give lots of informationThey seem to not like the trouble and bloodshed or plight of the believers, but are surrendered and can't do anything about it except as Allah wills. They say that for Allah it is simply a matter of Be and it is, and they are militant and warriors when they are sent on those tasks, and are transformed freely Allah adding to their creation freely, and they are surrendered also to ignorance, that they know that they don't know except what Allah tells them, and that they glorify Allah unceasingly but we know the glorification of Allah is simply stating facts, just like they stated the facts regarding Be and it Is they never said it is good or anything. They are the ones who have surrendered and surrender to chaos, to war, to whatever Allah wants to create and do.
then the Qur'an brings this imagery in of the eyes and the ears being witnesses and recorders, and that people see themselves doing evil with their eyes and their own hands, and the imagery of what ones own hands send forth and stuff, so one should only witness themselves doing justice and goodness, charity, all that good stuff, restraint
and the angels are in support of the good people, as should we, basically we should be as much like the Prophets and angels as possible, the angels philosophy and their practice of unflagging meditative thinking and truth and surrender, and the Prophets in their softness, sincerity, sensitivity, compassion, and worship and all that
and to be extremists, but not in silly things, but extremists in goodness, because there is nothing to hold on to really, but to be good to ourselves and good to others and kind and charitable to our own families and everyone we encounter, as representatives of justice and excellence in a world where it is scarce
and if in the end we are cast in hell for that, then there wasn't really a chance for us anyway, it should be that we tried our absolute best -
@FS
Stop being lazy, and learn Arabic, as I learnt English, there are inconsistencies in translations.
That is something I seriously should do, I guess I don't want it badly enough even though I really do want to know classical Arabic fluently for the sake of the Qur'an.
