Islam was never as peaceful as you claim.
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How about a bit of research?
and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) Emesa , and many villages were ruined with killing by Muhammad and a great number of people were killed and captives from Galilee as far as Bth
Check pg 188-189 https//goo.gl/BkG6X7
AG 945, indiction VII On Friday, 4 February, at the ninth hour
Check battle of Dathin https//goo.gl/mQqJVO
It is a bizarre battle. Romans and historians state that Arabs were raiding the land, but they don?t mention why this raiding didn?t include use of weapons and why the people they were raiding didn?t put any obstacle. But the funny thing is that the battle was started by the romans apparently because they thought Arabs were becoming victorious.At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet , a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher the path of truth. He taught
How about some details?
Twelve peoples all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Iranian troops had departed and left the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan to the sons of Ishmael. called to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Testament. Although were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, a merchant, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God's command, was revealed to them, and taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history. Because the command had come from On High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said "God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father, Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you."
Source http//quransmessage.com/articles/non-muslim%20sources%20FM3.htm
Excerpts from Robert G.Hoyland's book 'Seeing Islam as Others Saw It' A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early IslamThen God raised up against them the sons of Ishmael, as the sand on the sea shore, whose leader (mdabbrnā was Muhammad (mhmd). Neither walls nor gates, armour or shield, withstood them
Check page 189-190 https//goo.gl/BkG6X7
Having let their dispute run its course, after much fighting had taken place between them, the Westerners, whom they call the sons of ?Ammy, gained the victory, and one of their number, a man called M?awy ,
Check page 225 to know who Mr Muawiya was https//goo.gl/cz7y1L
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Hi everyone,
First I would like to point that I am not here to argue or troll but I am very intersted in finding the truth(so the real God or the lack of him) and Quran-only islam really draw my strong attention. However, I try to be as critical as possible and whenever I find something controversial I try to challange(after own research of course) people who know the topic and might be smarter than me, therefore are able to straighten my supposedly false views. I will be really pleased to find out in those discussion that I am mistaken.Good attitude, please continue to be as critical as possible to anything and anyone.
But the hardest part is To be critical towards yourselves and your own thought and opinion.So my problem for now is that claim of Quran-only muslims, that islam is is rather peaceful religion is false in my opinion.
DEFINITELY.
Because- islam is (supposedly) not a religion.
- There is no such thing as "peaceful religion", all religion was invented with the sole purpose of "power" and controlling the mind of the populace.
Quran itself provide lines promoting both peace and war. Therefore it's quite open to interpration. I've read peaceful interpretions and they are quite covincing. However, we cannot lie to ourselves and the best way to examine how to interpret those verses is looking at the practices of Muhammad and first muslims.
Muhammad is DEFINITELY NOT A Muslim or a member of religion called ISLAM.
Given to be recognized as such he need to proclaim the "Shahada".
And how did his Shahada sounds like?
"I testify that I AM the messenger of God"????By that criteria alone, it's clear that MUHAMMAD WAS AN INFIDEL / A KUFFAR, by Islam's standard.
The Religion of Islam is not a peaceful religion at all.
The history of the Religion of Islam is full of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture.
The Religion of Islam was invented with "Political objective" in mind.
And Muhammad himself was not and cannot be a member of the Religion of Islam.Salam / Peace
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Peace McKenna.
Having read your following quote
"Some 4000 poor villagers of Palestine were killed there, Christians, Jews and Samaritans. The Arabs ravaged the whole region."
"the Arabs climbed mountain of Mardin and killed many monks there in Kedar and Benth. There died the blessed man Simon, doorkeeper of Qedar, brother of Thomas the priest."
"The Arabs gained countrol of Mahoze and all the territory. They also came to Byzantine territory, plundering and ravaging the entire region of Syria. "
I have the following comments
1- One has to check and confirm that this information is correct and a true fact.
2- The described action was agressive and it goes against Qoran. If that is a true fact,then those who did this are not "True Muslims" as per Qoran.
3- Qoran for me sets the criteria of "True Islam". I do not find any instruction of aggression/oppression... in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
When people mention "Islam" and "muslims", do they really refer to the real meaning of Islam and the real meaning of muslims?
Do we even have many of muslims these days? I don't think so.
If I could speak honest, then based on my understanding, the "muslims" who accept/follow both (man-made hadiths & the Qur'an) are basically not true muslims, and they're actually rejectors/deniers.
I have that understanding, though it saddens me and it seems there's still part of me who reluctant to accept that understanding (it is hard), since I think that among those kind of people are my own relatives, and also a great number of self-proclaimed "muslims" nowadays.
I truly desire salvation for myself and for all of the people who are dear to me, but I consider that understanding is what I have if I apply honesty without being biased,
and I can't do much to change the situation around me. What I could do is pray that Allah will forgive me and those who are dear to me, and hope that our good deeds will be accepted by Allah.
It's impossible to adhere to both hadiths and the Qur'an, because they clash each other (they don't match), and if there are those who say that they can accept/follow both without problem... then their honesty is questionable.
I think we could use this method to know whether someone (adult people who could read) is actually a denier/rejector, or even a loser
Let them know the Qur'an. If they are not even interested to read the Qur'an (after it reaches them*), then they're ignorant, negligent, and they have zero (or lack of) interest to know about their own Creator and the truth, thus they are losers.
*It reminded me of the "muslims" who treat their Qur'an as bookshelf filler (display).
If they read it, but then they hate (& deny) all of it, then it's obvious that they're betrayers (toward their own Creator) and disbelievers, thus they are also losers.
If they do not submit to all of the messages in the Qur'an, then it's mean they reject, maybe there are people who reject all/many of it, or some parts of it, or maybe only reject few verses, but basically... they commit rejection, they don't surrender themselves entirely to the Creator.
For those who reject all of it, of course they're definitely losers, and for those who reject partially, they put themselves at the risk of become losers.
And there are more problems, such as there are people who "follow" the Qur'an - except for the verses which are not in line (contradict) with "popular pseudo science", I call such conduct as "hidden rejection".
Also, there are "deceitful manipulators", those who use the Qur'an for unrighteous purpose and eager to have followers/adorers. Such people are dangerous in my opinion, because in my view, they blur the line between right and wrong and try to lure people by boasting about miracle/supernatural thingies.
I dislike the people who lead their followers/victims to hell with "smiles and/or insincere kindness" (appear as if they're special holy people) + miracle splashes here and there - they are among of disgusting people on earth.
Peace.
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Peace Jafar.
You say ( Your quotes in green)
1- The Religion of Islam is not a peaceful religion at all.
It depends what Islam you mean. A)"Traditional Islam as per "Sunnin, Shiite,...etc" or B) "True Islam" as per Qoran.
I agree with you on A) ,but disagree with you on B).
2= The history of the Religion of Islam is full of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture.
All history can be a mixture of truth and "made up propaganda/ Victors point of view. It needs to be checked/evidenced.
Again, B)-True Islam" is against conquest,massacre,rape ,oppression,slavery and torture.
3-The Religion of Islam was invented with "Political objective" in mind.
I agree with you , most definitely with A)- Traditional Islam-.
4-And Muhammad himself was not and cannot be a member of the Religion of Islam.
100% agree with you on A). 100% disagree with you on B), according to my understanding of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Jafar.
You say ( Your quotes in green)
1- The Religion of Islam is not a peaceful religion at all.
It depends what Islam you mean. A)"Traditional Islam as per "Sunnin, Shiite,...etc" or B) "True Islam" as per Qoran.
It doesn't matter, it can be "Sunni Islam", "Shiite Islam", "Quran Only Islam", "True Islam", "The Truest Islam" etc..
The name doesn't matter..
Once it has become a RELIGION marked by introduction of one or more DOGMA which is to be enforced to be believed by it's sect member and others. Then it will not be peaceful at all..2= The history of the Religion of Islam is full of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture.
All history can be a mixture of truth and "made up propaganda/ Victors point of view. It needs to be checked/evidenced.
Again, B)-True Islam" is against conquest,massacre,rape ,oppression,slavery and torture.
Once "True Islam" become a religion, the cycle of conquest, raid, massacre, rape, oppression, slavery and torture shall soon started.
The word islam has a meaning and it's an attitude, a character (muslim) within the same domain as "honest", "happy", "peaceful" etc..
One can for example invented a religion called "HONEST", and declare those who are not "HONEST" were subjected for conversion, invasion, torture and their blood are allowable to be shed.
And I will agree if someone say
"Honest were never as honest as they claimed, infact they're a bunch of liars and hypocrites".Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar.
Brother, never mind what "one" declares.,if human.
What about when GOD ( Creator/Originator/cause of all this...) declares in His message? Or is there no message from GOD?Or is there no GOD?
When you say
One can for example invented a religion called "HONEST", and declare those who are not "HONEST" were subjected for conversion, invasion, torture and their blood are allowable to be shed.
My answer to that is simple,if he was "truly honest" ,he should/would not do such a thing,according to the message from the Creator!
It just means he is pretending to be "Honest" or misunderstanding what "Honest" is. It does not mean "Honest" does not exist or is not a "Deen"?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Jafar.
Brother, never mind what "one" declares.,if human.
What about when GOD ( Creator/Originator/cause of all this...) declares in His message? Or is there no message from GOD?Or is there no GOD?
What about it?
If this GOD is the true controller of this universe, He / It doesn't need to "declare or send message".
As what it will or plan shall be executed.. as it is the planner and also the executor.I'm sorry but I don't buy to the idea about a Deity who wrote a book and got pissed of if somebody did a bad review of his book and burned them to hell for all eternity.
What usually happened was an insane psychopathic ruler declare that his propaganda book / decrees is to be declared as HOLY across his kingdom/fiefdom/sultanate/caliphate whatever.. and those who dare to criticize and / or do a bad review and / or do not believe that his propaganda book / decrees are backed by a Deity and 100% true shall be put to DEATH.
As thus the insane ruler has created an insane religion based on his insane propaganda book / decrees which MUST be recognized as HOLY BOOK.
Salam / Peace
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"Kill the disbelievers until they repent and perform Salat"
But Islam is "peaceful" )
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I'm sorry but I don't buy to the idea about a Deity who wrote a book and got pissed of if somebody did a bad review of his book and burned them to hell for all eternity.
Aren't we supposed to ponder upon the verses and not apply anything without understanding them? Won't that mean sometimes coming up with bad review of his book? Those who are patience and open minded will however blame their lack of understanding instead of cursing the deity.
I thought we would be thrown in hell if we do things against Quran.
As thus the insane ruler has created an insane religion based on his insane propaganda book / decrees which MUST be recognized as HOLY BOOK.
I don't think the ruler needs to do it. A normal human being who received guidance and benefits from it can also consider it holy.
Insane rulers don't read the holy book. They make up their own rules and force their nation to follow them by saying they have been approved by God.Kill the disbelievers until they repent and perform Salat
Distorted by rulers who love to kill!
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Hi reel,
Distorted by rulers who love to kill!
I know the passages actually do not say something like that, but I just took an example of how people interpret it traditionally. Qatal does not mean kill and kafar does mean that someone is deluded, i.e. confused into believing something that is not true. The true account is that the passages speak about convincing people about God, defeating them in their delusion. It is hard to reach a sectarian person, but it is possible if you aim for the right argument and keep calm.
Be well
Emanuel -
Peace Jafar.
OK,so you are asking
What about it?
If this GOD is the true controller of this universe, He / It doesn't need to "declare or send message".
As what it will or plan shall be executed.. as it is the planner and also the executor.How about if "sending a message with instructions" to us was the plan?
You may say we are already" programmed" with a basic instinct to choose?
I say ,the plan was for both,the basic instinct and the message .
The trial is in process to bring out your true conviction. The "ego" has to be tamed.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The message is just that, to tame the beast/ego
Be well
Emanuel -
Qatal does not mean kill and kafar does mean that someone is deluded, i.e. confused into believing something that is not true. The true account is that the passages speak about convincing people about God, defeating them in their delusion. It is hard to reach a sectarian person, but it is possible if you aim for the right argument and keep calm.
This is simply not true. Qatal does mean kill. The root word is many times used on steles speaking of the slaying of their enemies (resulting in their deaths). One of the most famous ones is the Tel Dan stele.
Your understanding of kfr is also flawed; see http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/KFR-root_from_Bible_to_Koran.htm
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I don't know where the "religion of peace" meme came from. The quran allows to wage war against aggressors. Yes, if you're an empire, and try to take me, another empire, I as an empire can wreck you all the way to your capitol, if I have to go that far to stop you from destroying me.
There's nothing wrong with that. The quran clearly states to maintain a strong military to deter potential aggressors from attacking.
This is basically what the USA has done militarily. There's LITERALLY nothing wrong with this, and self defence as well.
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It also says that you should kill disbelievers unless they perform Salat.
That interpretation is bogus.
Be safe
Emanuel -
Peace Man Of Faith.
Each generation has their ways/traditions/...Do you think GOD is not aware of this?
You are putting everything into the same mix and interpreting Qoran according to "how you see things" only?
Are you willing to accept that sometimes Qoran addresses you and me ,sometimes it addresses what was relevant when the prophet was alive,sometimes it addresses only certain generation,with lessons to all of us.
When you say It also says that you should kill disbelievers unless they perform Salat. Are you aware of the history and the situation that existed at that time? Are you reading all the verses incontext?
For example when GOD says
813
This is what they have justly incurred by fighting God and His messenger. For those who fight against God and His messenger, God's retribution is severe.What is the history/event behind this? What is the lesson? Or what is your interpretation of it?
Then this
839
You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your deen devoted to God alone. If they refrain from aggression, then God is fully Seer of everything they do.Again same questions apply? Or what is your interpretation of this?
Or these verses
860
You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of God, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; God knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of God will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.861
If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.And the same questions can be asked here...
Of course GOD is not saying "kill the disbelievers if they do not observe salat" ,that is your own corruption by leaving out the "context" to make it look absurd.
Read /ponder/study Qoran properly and convey its true message. Do not ignore most of it and present only your limited understanding and claim some absurd interpretation without context .To me not only the "Mullahs/Islamic scholars..." are abusing/doing injustice to Qoran,also those that ignore a big chunk of its message/lessons...are doing the same.
So many are now hell bent on claiming Qoran matches their belief/ideal,that they are "abusing"it, hijacking /hiding/twisting its true meaning to fit their belief/agenda...
We have to make sure/be careful if we know we are accountable before GOD.However one can give his/her opinion ,providing they make this clear to others.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace mmkhan
I've read that, it's interesting. However do you claim that man mentioned in my non-muslim resources who is called there as Muhammad and is leader of Arabs isn't a Messanger of God who brought Quran? Where is Quran coming from then? Who and when wrote it?Peace brother,
Sorry for late reply.
Red Yes that is because alQuraan does not support this claims.
Blue It came down in Arabic writing from Allah same as it was given to Musa in writing. Please click here to see this aayat.
Green It is since Adam. To whom it was given is not important at all. As you can see in 172 that the book was given to Musa but it was not a guidance for Musa but for Bani Isreal.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Good logic,
The decree has always been the same, and the "enemy" has always been the same too, i.e. our Body and its Satan.
Methodology may vary but the approach must remain the same.
Be safe
Emanuel