Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Users
Skins
  • Light
  • Brite
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse
Free Minds Forum Icon
  1. Home
  2. General Issues / Questions
  3. General Issues / Questions
  4. The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed

The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Issues / Questions
164 Posts 24 Posters 8.9k Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • R Offline
    R Offline
    runninglikezebras
    wrote on last edited by
    #109

    You're welcome Jafar. I will continue the translation until the document is complete. Haters gonna hate.

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • T Offline
      T Offline
      Taro_Hiroshi
      wrote on last edited by
      #110

      Peace runninglikezebras,

      I suggest translating the whole book and then post it here. I think it will be easier for people to read the book, if you translate the whole book, then create a pdf file, and share it on this thread. I think it is easier to be able to read all of a book, instead of having to wait and only read it little by little until it's translation is finished.

      Keep up the good work.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • R Offline
        R Offline
        runninglikezebras
        wrote on last edited by
        #111

        I agree in a sense. The end-result will be exactly that. Olaf will be using these translations in helping to create an English version of his work and make it available as a pdf.

        My modus operandi is such that I prefer to chop up the work in parts and publish those when ready. This has certain advantages. The first pieces of translation are with this method more quickly available to Olaf and to the freeminds community. They are sort of an English premiere, you should feel privileged.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • O Offline
          O Offline
          Olaf
          wrote on last edited by
          #112

          Two american scholars are currently translating the book. The work of runninglikezebras speeds us the process. A finalized english version will be published within a month and half/ two monthes maximum (pdf document under creative commons licence, with nice layout, images, maps, photos, and internet links to sources and usefull information). It will be avalaible freely on my website, like the french edition.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • R Offline
            R Offline
            runninglikezebras
            wrote on last edited by
            #113

            KEYS OF READING THE ISLAMIC DISCOURSE IN THE LIGHT OF ITS REAL ORIGINS

            What became the Quran has changed considerably since the proto-Quran composed of judeonazarene sheets until the development of its final text. It suffered as seen an amount of manipulations during a very complex process. The Qur'an thus proves to be one of the most reworked texts and is therefore one of the most difficult to access. It is also difficult to understand it without its glosses and without accompanying texts who explain it. Likewise, the discourse of explaining has also changed dramatically over time, undergoing its share of manipulation. In short, it has long been very difficult to read it clearly. But giant strides have been made with the work of Edouard-Marie Gallez on judeonazarenes and highlighting their key role. While there is still much to be done for researchers to unravel the layers of rewriting and manipulation of texts and manipulation of the Islamic discourse. Lets use this light brought to us to clear things up in the future.

            SOME CONSTITUTIVE MANIPULATIONS OF THE ISLAMIC DOGMA

            We can already isolate some mechanical manipulations of dogma and Islamic history, and even date them in the light of events we have showed. We must understand that there have been two major "technical" manipulations

            • When the texts were in the hands of the Muslim leaders (first caliphs, until Abd al-Malik), it was relatively easy to directly change their content, but at the risk of civil war destruction or addition of sheets, scratching and rewriting unseemly references (palimpsests), pure and simple additions of words or whole sentences in the course of the text (interpolations) ... And of course, the scribes of the caliphs also used the tools of the reorganization of the text constitution of suras by the choice of the most appropriate verses, ordering of the suras and verses ... We can speak in this case of text manipulation, as was noted in the study of the Quranic Sanaa manuscripts .

            http//i.imgur.com/qDTVDoN.jpg

            Examples of manipulation of the Qur'an revealed on the Sanaa manuscripts by the visible presence of palimpsests (the lower writing being scraped or washed off, is still visible in the upper writing)

            1 - David Manuscript 86/2003, front (photo Sotheby's, carried out for the auction in 1992)
            2 - Enlargement of a manuscript fragment photographed by Gerd Puin
            3 - Lighting of a portion of the portfolio with ultraviolet light revealing the palimpseste
            4 - Inferior text of a palimpsest reconstituted by Asma Hilali (see note 13; here it shows an earlier version of a fragment of text s24,33 different from the Cairo edition

            • When the written Arabic language began to settle under Abd al-Malik, and the Qur'an was distributed more widely, it proved far more difficult to directly manipulate the text. This phenomenon occurred more often (for example by playing with the vocalization of the text allowing for example the change of a verbal form from active to passive, we'll see an illustration of this on page 87 ). Also, as mentioned above, it was preferred instead to manipulate the meaning of the texts change the meaning of certain words, arbitrary assignment of names of places or people to make the text mean something differently, inventing a speech in annex to explain and interpret the text according to what its manipulators wanted them to mean, creation of false evidence by the hadiths, rewriting of historical events ... The creation of the episode of the night journey illustrates very well the imagination of scribes and historians serving the caliphs. We can speak in this case of manipulation of discourse. This operation continues still today with the work of concordists they are Islamic scholars who absolutely try to find in the Qur'an today established scientific truths, but inconceivable at the time of Mohammed. Sometimes reaching the grotesque , these attempts to establish so-called "scientific miracles of the Qur'an" perfectly illustrate the backwards logic presiding in Islam, that is to say building constructed reasoning to justify predetermined conclusions.

            These "techniques" were employed in the service of the formation of Islamic dogma. The starting points that constituted the "religion of Abraham and the Messiah Jesus " as preached by the judeonazarenes and the memory of the actual historical origins have become very difficult to discern under the thick layers of successive manipulations. The text of the Quran explained by the Islamic discourse has almost completely overshadowed them. But thanks to new scientific research as presented in these pages, it becomes possible to clarify some of these manipulations. The understanding allows to decrypt the Islamic discourse, and thus by using the right reading keys, to find its real origins. Let us examine a few symbolic manipulations, such as the manipulation of terms to denote believers of different monotheistic religions, and historical and geographical transfer of the actual origins of Islam. We will see later how this knowledge restores a little of the historical truth in the Quran and in the Islamic discourse.

            These manuscripts of the Koran are among the oldest ever, found in Sanaa, Yemen in 1972, and having escaped destruction ordered by the caliphs of all non-compliant writings. Some date back to the second half of the 7th century (perhaps even before for the dating of the erased writings and recovered palimpsests). The German palaeographer Gerd R?diger Puin was called by the Yemeni authorities to restore, catalog and investigate these manuscripts (estimated at 12,000 fragments and whole folios). He realized, with other researchers, an impressive collection of photographs currently under study. These manuscripts reflect heterodox versions of the Koran, and at least one story of his writing, progressive and eventful as we have seen, contradicting that of Muslim traditions (final edition of the Koran under the Caliph Uthman). They support some of analysises of Edouard-Marie Gallez of manipulations of the Qur'anic text. This discovery rather disturbs, as shown, and makes Yemeni authorities feel uneasy - See also the work of Asma Hilali and her study of Sanaa Qurans, published in The World of the Bible (Summer 2012) and developed since (her article "The Palimpsest Sana'a and the canonization of the Qur'an New Developments&quot. She assumes that "Heterodoxy" of manuscripts can be explained by the requirements of that time and by the process of exegesis and learning.
            Remember that this work of vocalization of the text lasted until the 10th century
            Many Muslims recognize this themselves and are demanding an end to these works that "demean Islam." Some examples on this site http//www.miraclesducoran.com/scientifique_index.html

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • FusionF Offline
              FusionF Offline
              Fusion
              wrote on last edited by
              #114

              Thanks buddy for your snaps of the oldest quran found.

              I maybe asking too early but It would be interesting to know how much Sanaa palimpsest differs from the Quran that we have today. Especially if there is a change of meanings. Does it also present new chapters or deleted chapters ?

              Another interesting aspect is to wait and see the results of the investigation into Sanna manuscripts. Muslims common belief is that the Quran we have today is the perfect unchanged word of God, unlike Bible which has gone through various changes through history.

              The claim that Sanna quran is the oldest, as you mentioned during first two centuries of Islam, it is imperative that we know the variations to the present day Quran. The most important is were the changes minor or major .

              cheers

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • FusionF Offline
                FusionF Offline
                Fusion
                wrote on last edited by
                #115

                Some research I found.

                http//www.answering-christianity.com/karim/mosque_of_sanaa.htm

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • R Offline
                  R Offline
                  runninglikezebras
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #116

                  Thanks buddy for your snaps of the oldest quran found.

                  I maybe asking too early but It would be interesting to know how much Sanaa palimpsest differs from the Quran that we have today. Especially if there is a change of meanings. Does it also present new chapters or deleted chapters ?

                  Another interesting aspect is to wait and see the results of the investigation into Sanna manuscripts. Muslims common belief is that the Quran we have today is the perfect unchanged word of God, unlike Bible which has gone through various changes through history.

                  The claim that Sanna quran is the oldest, as you mentioned during first two centuries of Islam, it is imperative that we know the variations to the present day Quran. The most important is were the changes minor or major .

                  cheers

                  The author is not making claims it is the oldest Quran but among the oldest fragments known today. Their study is ongoing. You can find a list of suspected verses on the website of E-M Gallez see http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Codicology_and_suspected_verses.htm

                  You may also want to check Gerd R. Puin 's work, though I'm not sure his work has been translated from German to English. For a short summary in video format check https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXCSATYVGBA

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • T Offline
                    T Offline
                    Taro_Hiroshi
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #117

                    I agree in a sense. The end-result will be exactly that.

                    Good to hear

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • R Offline
                      R Offline
                      runninglikezebras
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #118

                      Muslims, Christians, Jews and "polytheists" according to the Islamic dogma

                      As we saw in the introduction, Islam claims to have appeared in an environment which remained fiercely polytheistic even though the entire Middle East had been christianizing for six centuries, and even though regular and close contacts with Jews and Christians were established a long time ago for commercial reasons. Among Qorechites, these connections with Jews and Christians have been particularly important for Muhammad, as has been emphasized in the Muslim tradition. In the sense that the "prophet of Islam ", did not need either of them since his message was directly dictated by an angel of God. Based on these elements of the Islamic dogma, Western discourse sought to rationally imagine how Islam has been founded by Muhammad. As such we can imagine how the latter could obtain information from representatives of Christianity and Judaism in order to make himself a "new religion." And even though it denies any divine intervention, this seemingly rational Western discourse followed that of Islam in its main premise no group of former judeochristians such as that of the judeonazarenes could have been the direct initiator of changes among Qorechites, and Islam would have suddenly appeared out of nothing, that is to say within a polytheistic environment (Mecca). How is such blindness even possible?

                      It seems that the factor that has so long kept in check the Western rationality was firstly the ability shown by the caliphs, with the scribes who worked for them, to fully retract the memory of judeonazarenes. If there is indeed question of Christians and Jews in the idealized life of Muhammad as the Islamic discourse reconstructed it, then there is no trace of judeonazarenes. By what trick could they be completely hidden in the history of Islam while they have contributed so much to it?

                      To understand this, we have to go back in history to the time of the alliance between judeonazarenes and Arabs, in Syria and in Yathrib-Madina. Here is how they then considered different types of believers in their neighborhood (qualifiers all come from the judeonazarane doctrine) there were Christians, most of them Arab (and other Syro-Aramaic speaking Christians), qualified as idolaters ("musrikun" ) and the Rabbinical Jews, qualified as concealers ("kuffar" - see note ), hated by judeonazarenes ("Nasara&quot, and converted Arabs (to judeonazarism). Rabbinical Jews and judeonazarene Jews together constituted the "people of the Book" ("ahl al kitab&quot. What "book" could be referred to at the beginning of the seventh century? Obviously the Torah, the book of books , the reference book of judeonazarenes. "People of the Book", are thus all the Jews of that time, the heirs of the Torah. This primarily concerns the rabbinical Jews, the most numerous. But the small group of judeonazarenes share this heritage with their rabbinical "ethnic" cousins, even when they revile as much as they can these "kuffar" in their texts and in their indoctrination among Arabs. Moreover, judeonazarenes and Arabs who made their allegiance, sharing the same faith and the same messianic project, form the ummah ("umma&quot, which can be translated as "clan", "tribe", " community "or "nation".

                      Let us ponder on this term umma, a very common word formed from "umm," mother. It comes from the Torah , where it refers to the twelve tribes of Israel, the chosen people. The term was preserved by judeonazarenes who considered themselves according to their faith as the only true Jews. They claimed to be the true Israel, the community (meaning the tribal clan, the people) of just Jews, of the solely elect. This is attested to even in the Koran if you read it correctly, as we shall see. When the alliance with the Arabs becomes effective, over the indoctrination of the late 6th century and early 7th, the ummah will include the allocation by the patriarch Abraham by Arab descent. It will become a composite judeonazarene and Arab community.

                      Then comes the episode of 640 and the retraction of the judeonazarenes. To justify it a posteriori, we saw that Omar, Uthman and their successors changed the sheets that form the Quran by adding (interpolating) the term "Nasara" (= Nazarenes = judeonazarenes) to certain verses of distrust towards Rabbinical Jews. They then wanted to flatten by force the meaning of "Christians" in this term. It is a case of manipulation of text and discourse, simple enough to understand but difficult to detect . It was initially to justify the sudden hatred of Arabs towards their former masters. But it moved quickly to transfer the meaning of the original ummah exalted in the texts to that of the new Ummah consisting of only Arabs, the community of true believers (marking their contempt for the false beliefs of judeonazarenes) and then to that of the ummah of Muslims only.

                      And so, with these first manipulations and over the many others that followed, a new religion appeared. A religion that is no longer justified by its real historical past, radically derived from Judeo-Christianity as operated by judeonazarenes but by a new revelation, a new choice of God. And as it is imperative that this choice is new, it is also necessary that the Arabs have nothing to do with the past. It had to be so that Islam and Quran appeared in a milieu untouched by Christian and Jewish previous revelations. They must therefore invent an environment of pagan origin, an idolatrous and polytheist environment and it must be so that the Quran and its external discourse mention this polytheistic substrate in which it affirms that Islam has been revealed. The problem, though, is that the discourse of this new religion was mainly developed after the text of the Quran had been almost fixed and distributed by Abd al-Malik and his successors. How then make these texts say what is not written, what they do not mean?

                      This will be an emblematic case of manipulation of discourse and meaning by transfers, shifts of the meaning of words represented in the following diagram

                      http//i.imgur.com/o1nZiiK.png

                      John of Damascus wrote in 746 in his treatise on Heresies that Arabs accused the Christians "to introduce a partner alongside God saying that Christ is the son of God, and is God." They were repeating the judeonazarene indoctrination of faith, as we have seen on Page 26. It translates the Arabic 'musrikun "with" idolaters "and not by" pagans "or" polytheists. "
                      Just as the word "Bible" comes from the Greek "" or "bible" and simply means "books" (originally it comes from elsewhere Byblos, a major center for the production of books).
                      For example Genesis 25 (translation "nation", "people", "tribe&quot
                      This manipulation was established by Antoine Moussalli Edouard and Marie-Gallez (see note 84).
                      "You are the best nation produced for mankind"(S3,110)

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • R Offline
                        R Offline
                        runninglikezebras
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #119

                        This manipulation was made gradually made since the early caliphs it began with the addition of "Nasara" in texts, since Omar, the adding intended to justify the reversal of alliance against the judeonazarenes. Then it continued until the 10th century by forcing the meaning of words in the Quran and building around it a discourse justifying this new sense (with as a key, the force of Hadith and other chronicles of so-called historians). The Ummah has become the Muslim community alone (initially the community of Arabs in the new religion of Abraham, and the community of all Muslims with the opening of the universal Islam under the Abbasids). The "People of the Book" have become believers of the three monotheistic religions each with a holy book.

                        By the way, this new concept of "People of the Book" suits Islam well as it becomes a religion just as valid as the other two, with a Koran it claims as completely comparable to the Bible ( and even better). This is further justification with the story of the prophet's discourse of succession of divine revelations correcting eachother, one after another and completed with Islam. This very subtle theological construction moreover allows to explain the similarities between the monotheistic religions (hence the qualifier "Abrahamic religions&quot They are obvious in view of the many shared laws, customs and traditions and troubling similarities between the sacred texts. We now know what is the real reason. And this is especially true for Messianic Judaism and Islam, which we now understand, are very close relatives who are unaware of eachother. Returning to the terminology of manipulation it retracts the judeonazarenes indeed. Their old designation of "Nasara" now returns to Christians. When we want to change reality, we always start by changing the meaning of words. It has also twisted the meaning of "kuffar" and the verb "kafara" (cover, to cover up) which characterized the rabbinical Jews versus the Nazarene Jews, to give them new meaning of "infidels" and "unbelievers" and respectively "to reject" and "to deny". This avoids uncomfortable questions being raised about the reasons of distincting between bad Jews who "conceal their texts" and good Jews who do not cover them who are these good Jews then? So why would they be friends of Muslims? What had these evil jews concealed so they are hated as much? Finally, the meaning was distorted from "musrikun" which originally meant Christians to the famous invented polytheists, similar to how this mythical "jahiliya" was invented , this time of ignorance in which they received the Islamic revelation. In the end, this is how we come to find all the concepts that justify the discourse of Islam in the Quran.

                        Some transfers of real history to the Islamic discourse

                        Along with these manipulations of terminology, manipulations were also made to the historical and geographical material of actual origins of Islam. This was of course initially to mask the role of judeonazarism. Then, driven by the game of outbidding, it led to the current discourse. It proceeded on the one hand to a self-justification of logic, but also to a logical interpretation of the historical evidence. Among these testimonies, there was of course the Quran, whose verses became very obscure and which required an effort of consistent imagination to make sense of them. There was also material evidence place names, buildings, such as mosques and the nonconforming qibla or the Dome of the Rock (which originally had nothing to do with the night journey it's supposed to celebrate according to the Muslim discourse, as we recall).

                        But there were also oral testimonies, the memories reported by word of mouth which had to be reinterpreted with the formation of hadiths. The first collections of these hadiths appeared at the end of the 8th century, there has been considerable inflation of these "testimonies" as we move further away in time or further from the words spoken as they were supposed to be reported. We see them competing with eachother with more and more details and which fifty or a hundred years ago the few testimonies related to the same subjects proved very much more succinct or did not exist at all. The goals of these manipulations are clear to attribute to the figure of an idealized Muhammad the remains and memories of historical events which resulted in Islam. Without going into the details of all these transfers, here are some of the most emblematic in the sense of logic of manipulation

                        • In geographical terms, the most significant transfers are those that affect the environment of the tribe of Muhammad (around Latakia in northwestern Syria, as we have seen); changing to Mecca names places, names of hills, destination of the pilgrimage (originally made to Jerusalem) and prayer orientations ...

                        • In a historical perspective, it was the same for the memory of ancient battles that ultimately led to the surrender of Jerusalem, transferred and deformed in the Muslim discourse in as many episodes of the struggle of the party of Medinan against the supposed Meccans.

                        • In terms of inspiring figures, the influence of judeonazarene preachers could not be hidden. We find the figure of the judeonazarene priest Waraqa who in the Muslim discourse is simply made a Christian priest. About Bahirah, he is a late figure in the Islamic discourse; he is found first in the Christian apologetic to personify the judeonazarene environment which indoctrinated Muhammad. Islamic discourse partially returns this figure by making him a Christian monk who recognizes the prophethood of Muhammad.

                        • Regarding the anti-Judaism in the Islamic discourse, we can find its true source in the judeonazarene opposition towards the rabbinical Jews (as we shall see later in the review of the Qur'an). To recall, it was particularly materialized during the conquest of Jerusalem in 614, when the rabbinical jews drove their judeonazarene cousins and their Arab allies out of the city or region. In the final Islamic discourse, this souvenir is spoken of with the theme of betrayal, particularly that of the "Jewish tribes" of Medina. This story also refers to Muhammad's life certain events befallen otherwise and later under Umar in 640, when Arab leaders had broken with the judeonazarenes, massacred their leaders and expelled others. In the current Muslim narrative, these memories, of anti-Judaism which it relates to Mohammed giving it legitimacy, are expressed by the expulsion by the "Prophet" of two of the "three Jewish tribes of Medina" (fictitiously placed in 624-625) and the massacre of the third (supposedly 627).

                        • The theme of illegitimate challenges to the authority of the representative of God on earth does not arise at the time of the historical Muhammad. But the extension of his sacralized figure to his successors (the rachidun or "rightly guided&quot, will be used to legitimize the authority of the following caliphs. When it is said that Mohammed represses the opposition of Munafiqun (hypocrites), all present and future opponents are covered - the wars of apostasy (al houroub ridda) are thus legitimized.

                        What then are the elements of reality that have crossed the manufacturing of hadiths and formation of the Muslim discourse? The following diagram incorporates some elements within this historical reality, reinterpreted within the final Islamic legend (10th century), highlighting the transfers in space and in time.

                        http//i.imgur.com/e65Xfzq.png

                        We referring here to a Judaism claiming for itself a messianic project. This temptation has never left rabbinic Judaism, it is being expressed for example in the episode of Sabbatai Zevi in the 17th century, or today among some "ultras" of Zionism, including those wanting to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
                        It is to meet this requirement that a Muslim would invent this discourse of small girls being buried alive in the time of polytheists (mentioned in the introduction), wishing to interpret this verse in the sense intended by this concept of jahiliya "He hides himself from the people because of the ill of which he has been informed. Should he keep it (he little newly born girl) in humiliation or bury it in the ground? Unquestionably, evil is what they decide." (S16,59). The Muslim discourse insists to mean "bury" in the Arabic phrase (dassa fi-t-turab), whose primary meaning is nevertheless that of "lay in the dust," or "to give up". Today this expression has even become synonymous with "burying" another example of manipulation of discourse.
                        These include the iconic Bukhari hadith "The time will not rise until the Muslims fight the Jews, to the point that the Jew will hide behind rocks and trees. The rocks and trees will say, "O Muslim Here is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!". Unless a thorny tree of Jerusalem named "gharqad". It is indeed a tree belonging to the Jews. "

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • J Offline
                          J Offline
                          Jafar
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #120

                          This manipulation was made gradually made since the early caliphs it began with the addition of "Nasara" in texts, since Omar, the adding intended to justify the reversal of alliance against the judeonazarenes. Then it continued until the 10th century by forcing the meaning of words in the Quran and building around it a discourse justifying this new sense (with as a key, the force of Hadith and other chronicles of so-called historians). The Ummah has become the Muslim community alone (initially the community of Arabs in the new religion of Abraham, and the community of all Muslims with the opening of the universal Islam under the Abbasids). The "People of the Book" have become believers of the three monotheistic religions each with a holy book.

                          There are lot of going on during Abbasid era..
                          Which I believe can "enrich" your essay or hypothesis..

                          One of important "chapter" within the Abbasid era (which also lay the foundation of events to come afterwards)
                          was how they use the Islam religion to "Solve the Turkic problem".

                          Initially the Abbasid were not so "religious".. "scientific method" and "critical thinking" find it's initial root there..

                          Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (living around 900 AD) during the height of Abbassid era wrote (among others) the earliest writings of "critics towards dogmatic thinking and religion".

                          "On what ground do you deem it necessary that God should single out certain individuals , that he should set them up above other people, that he should appoint them to be the people's guides, and make people dependent upon them?"

                          "If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed."

                          "You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. , By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say "Produce something like it"?!"
                          -- Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (Obviously a kuffar and an apostate even with today's Islam standard)

                          The dude was also a brilliant scientist + physician, wrote many other materials related to diseases, anatomy and biology.
                          He's now considered as "Father of pediatrics".

                          He was not murdered, tortured or captured due to his blatant and up front approach criticizing religion and it's dogmatic thinking.
                          It shows

                          1. "The religious" were not powerful during that era.
                          2. There were conflict among "The religious / Clerics" versus "Critical thinker / Scientist" within the Abbasid society.

                          After the Abbassid era, there isn't any similar "critics towards dogmatic thinking and religion" on any part of the world.. until late 19th century. And continues up until today.

                          Back to the Abbassid and their "Turkish problem"..

                          The rise of converted Turkish kingdoms (overthrowing the disintegrated Abbassid) also open a new chapter for "The Religion of Islam". The once Arab's controlled religion of Islam was being used and applied by the new Turkish ruler to promote their agenda, kingdom's wealth and power expansion. This is the first time that the religion of Islam was applied without the Arabic language by non Semitic people (neither Arabs or Jews) and the religion works very well with them. Up to the era of Ottoman Caliphate.. until early 20th century.

                          And much later on, the religion of Islam was again used by non-Semitic people (the invading Mongols, Timurid) with the same purpose.. expanding their dominion to the east.. Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, crossing the sea to Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines.. And it also works well for them.. without the Arabic language..

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • R Offline
                            R Offline
                            runninglikezebras
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #121

                            The Abbasid era is definitely interesting but falls a bit out of scope of the work, dealing mostly on the origins of Islam. The Abbasid era already had a fixated Quranic text (dating back to Uthman), this of course doesn't negate the fabrication of hadith was still a flourishing business. I found what you posted to be a very interesting piece of criticism, which demonstrates that the inconsistencies resulting from the text manipulation and manipulation of discourse was already a topic during the Abbasid period.

                            By Islamic standards, Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi would have been called an apostate and a kuffar. Anyone opposing the islamic discourse is labeled as such in the modern Islamic discourse.

                            However, originally kuffar never meant any such thing. It was a precise word used for those who "conceal" (Jewish communities who didn?t recognize Jesus as the Messiah).

                            You can find E-M Gallez excellent article on the aramaic root kfr here

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • J Offline
                              J Offline
                              Jafar
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #122

                              The Abbasid era is definitely interesting but falls a bit out of scope of the work, dealing mostly on the origins of Islam.

                              By Islam here you mean "The Religion of Islam as we recognized today"?
                              If that's the case, the Abbasid era (and also the Turkic and Mongolian era) should be put inside the "scope of work".

                              The author has addressed the "Semitic" (judeo, arabs etc..) root of Religion of Islam. And how come he disregard the "Persian, Turkic and Mongoloid" root of Religion of Islam?

                              The most notable example is
                              The Turkic + Mongoloid culture and religion of "Tengriism" has 'contributed' this
                              http//www.peacefulmind.com/images/symbols/crescent_star.jpg

                              To the Religion of Islam.
                              Many people has died and willing to die just to 'defend' the honor of the above symbol..

                              The Abbasid era already had a fixated Quranic text (dating back to Uthman), this of course doesn't negate the fabrication of hadith was still a flourishing business. I found what you posted to be a very interesting piece of criticism, which demonstrates that the inconsistencies resulting from the text manipulation and manipulation of discourse was already a topic during the Abbasid period.

                              text manipulation and manipulation of discourse has happened since the "Semitic" era of the religion of Islam. As the author has pointed out...

                              By Islamic standards, Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi would have been called an apostate and a kuffar. Anyone opposing the islamic discourse is labeled as such in the modern Islamic discourse.

                              Anyone who oppose the "Official Doctrine" will be treated harshly as he or she is a "threat" to the social and power structure of the society.

                              You can see the evidence of such even inside this forum right?

                              One that really amazed me was how Razi can "get away with it" during the Abbassid era. He was not being apprehended, murdered, tortured or burned at the stake.

                              A giant leap of improvement, considering what happened to Abraham when he opposed the religion of his time at nearly the same place much centuries earlier.

                              Which makes the "Abbassid era" an interesting subject to dig further..
                              Unfortunately the majority of the writings during that era was lost when the Mongols burned and sacked Baghdad. (13th century)

                              You can find E-M Gallez excellent article on the aramaic root kfr here

                              I'm aware of that..
                              Those who has "something to hide"
                              That's why they reacted with "Force" trying to instill fear and terror to those who tried to expose the things which he or she is trying to hide.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • R Offline
                                R Offline
                                runninglikezebras
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #123

                                http//i.imgur.com/e65Xfzq.png

                                As complicated as it may seem, this scheme does not claim completeness. Islamic discourse has become remarkable complex to satisfy its logic and internal consistency. Muslim tradition has recreated a mythical past, borrowing some real memories transformed by the imagination of scribes and the religious. Obviously, it is also necessary to consider that the Qur'anic text was already spread, resulting in an imaginative game of back and forth between interpretation of this text and the 'making of the past. " In the end, one has the illusion of a clear history and a text that would be just as clear. Some verses of the Quran are also invoked to confirm this clarity in the eyes of Muslims, despite the fact that its making mention of a total different text (the "qor'?no" or "Koran" of judeonazarenes, their lectionary, which existed already). In fact, no careful reader of the Quran can find it clear and the Islamic themes of clarity and the "miracle of the Qur'an" lend themselves to laughter, in addition to the loss of a number of meanings, successive manipulations removed the text of the original Quranic sheets and the clarity which it claims.

                                Despite all their talent, it was indeed impossible for the scribes of the caliphs to retain overall consistency to a text as big as it was when they began to manipulate it, and started playing with the meaning of words. To change the meaning of an expression requires it be compatible with all its occurrence in all 114 suras and 6236 verses accounted for in the canonical version of the Quran. And if this new meaning is in conflict with what is already written in it, we must make further manipulations, textual or interpretative. It is even less possible given that it must also take into account requirements linked to the concealment of the real historical and geographical origins how to achieve to keep everything in line with what is demanded by the Islamic discourse and tradition?

                                Despite the meticulous effort which Islam makes to absolutely destroy everything that preceded it, there always remain traces. The believer must therefor believe so willingly or by force, without question, without doubt. Doubt is also one of the worst sins in Islam. And if the threat of hell and terrible punishments awaiting the wrong believers is not yet enough, the punishment can also be very earthly apostasy, already subject to hell according to the Koran, is also punishable by death (in the words of the hadith related by Muhammad Bukhari "Whoever changes his religion, kill him&quot. Every believer is encouraged to monitor and correct his neighbor, his friend, his son, his daughter or his parents if they prove guilty of deviance. Any "novelty" (bidah) is perceived as heretical, reprimanded and banned since the crystallization of Islam in the 10th century. The prohibition of critical thinking that has prevailed thus locks the believer forever into submission to religion according to its discourse and logic. And since religion has been reduced to the idealized figure of Muhammad, the prohibition of critical thinking will apply in particular about him. Any doubt, any critical approach - not even talking about the cartoons - are therefore more than prohibited they are sacrilegious.

                                Yet even a simple reading of the Quranic text raises many questions, as we shall see.

                                Among the many references of the Quran concerning clarity of language and intelligibility of its own verses, we cite the following s5,15 "There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book."; s26,192-195 "And indeed, the Qur'an is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds. The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down. Upon your heart, - that you may be of the warners - In a clear Arabic language."; s39,28 " an Arabic Qur'an, without any deviance that they might become righteous"
                                114 is also the number of "logia" of the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, a writing a widely circulated during the first centuries in Syria and in judeonazarene environments.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • R Offline
                                  R Offline
                                  runninglikezebras
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #124

                                  By Islam here you mean "The Religion of Islam as we recognized today"?
                                  If that's the case, the Abbasid era (and also the Turkic and Mongolian era) should be put inside the "scope of work".

                                  The author has addressed the "Semitic" (judeo, arabs etc..) root of Religion of Islam. And how come he disregard the "Persian, Turkic and Mongoloid" root of Religion of Islam?

                                  The most notable example is
                                  The Turkic + Mongoloid culture and religion of "Tengriism" has 'contributed' this
                                  http//www.peacefulmind.com/images/symbols/crescent_star.jpg

                                  To the Religion of Islam.
                                  Many people has died and willing to die just to 'defend' the honor of the above symbol..

                                  text manipulation and manipulation of discourse has happened since the "Semitic" era of the religion of Islam. As the author has pointed out...

                                  Anyone who oppose the "Official Doctrine" will be treated harshly as he or she is a "threat" to the social and power structure of the society.

                                  You can see the evidence of such even inside this forum right?

                                  One that really amazed me was how Razi can "get away with it" during the Abbassid era. He was not being apprehended, murdered, tortured or burned at the stake.

                                  A giant leap of improvement, considering what happened to Abraham when he opposed the religion of his time at nearly the same place much centuries earlier.

                                  Which makes the "Abbassid era" an interesting subject to dig further..
                                  Unfortunately the majority of the writings during that era was lost when the Mongols burned and sacked Baghdad. (13th century)

                                  I'm aware of that..
                                  Those who has "something to hide"
                                  That's why they reacted with "Force" trying to instill fear and terror to those who tried to expose the things which he or she is trying to hide.

                                  The Abassid period is mentioned by the author where the Mu`tazila are mentioned. It is a part of the "crystallization" of Islam. It is not discussed in detail since it had no influence on the already "fixated" Quranic text and it does not help shedding more light on the origins of Islam. The Abassid era universalized Islam; this explains why it also was more tolerant towards criticism (at least during certain parts of it). It was literally impossible to keep everyone in check and it had to appeal to a much more diverse audience of converts. The Abassid era does remain interesting as it had a time in which critical thinking flourished for a while. But keep in mind this time of free thinking was soon after crushed by proto-sunnism, which eventually evolved into the modern day sunnism we know today. Proto-sunnism was an allergic reaction to the free thinking of the mutazila (which briefly had the support of the Abassid rulership and had many heterodox interpretations).

                                  In this sense the Abassid era has all the features of the vicious circle as shown in the earlier posted diagram. Mutazila raising critical questions => discord in the ummah => return to enforcing sunnah and hadith.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • R Offline
                                    R Offline
                                    runninglikezebras
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #125

                                    WHAT DOES THE QURAN ITSELF SAY ABOUT THE GREAT SECRET OF ISLAM?

                                    Despite its current state, the Qur'an is worth studying closely. We now have some reading keys that can take down the manipulations suffered by the text or imposed on its reading by the Islamic discourse.

                                    We have spoken about some, such as the invention of the prophethood of Muhammad (this is undoubtedly the main manipulation of Islam), such as changes in terminology designating the different believers, historical and geographical transfers of origins of Islam, the invention of Mecca, the invention of the Qur'an as a book that is being dictated but nevertheless making reference to itself as an already written book, the resacralization Jerusalem (since Abd al-Malik) after its desecration (640) - and there are many others ...

                                    We will also take into account the profound manipulations suffered by the text of the Quran. Its compilation and its "editions" of the 7th and 8th century under the conditions that we now discern and followed by the work of scribes of Baghdad caliphs have led to a disruption of the logical sequence of ideas in its suras and verses . The disappearance of whole passages deemed harmful to the new dogmas, additions of phrases, even whole verses add to the confusion, to the inconsistencies, to the breaking down of meaning. In addition, the compilers chose to classify the suras in spite of common sense, by decreasing length. The scholars of Islam who studied in the first centuries the inconsistencies that resulted from it had to invent a chronology of the Suras of revelation to mitigate them. We have already seen how this parallel was established by classification between Meccan suras and Medinan suras (also known as pre-and post-hijra suras). This arbitrary distinction masks the true historical underpinnings and inconsistencies in the Quran, further enabling commentators to promote violence and commands of hatred through the doctrine of abrogation and the abrogated which was previously detailed.

                                    Here are some selected verses, delivered to the sagacity of the reader. They are classified according to some of the major themes of the judeonazarene preaching that appear when you know how to decipher with good reading keys. Between Muslim holy history and decrypted history, informed reader can choose which version seems the most likely. They are presented in tables that detail the Quranic verses , the meaning in Islam and interpretation that can disentangle the various manipulations as outlined above.

                                    Reciting the lectionary adapted to Arab by judeonazarenes

                                    Remember, the original mentions of the word "Koran" in the Qur'anic text clearly refers to a lectionary then used. This lectionary is the collection of texts from the Torah and the Gospel used by judeonazarenes, Aramaic for themselves, Arabic translation for their Arab allies. As we have seen, the word "Qur'an" itself reveal this use of lectionary, quite comparable to how the East SyrianAramaic christans are still using their "qor'?no "(or" qer'yana &quot. Numerous copies of these lectionaries were accompanied by oral preaching, carried out by the judeonazarenes themselves and by converted Arabs, including Mohammed and probably a few other preachers.

                                    To support this preaching, judeonazarenes have given their instructions in leaflets of catechesis, teaching and exhortation written in Arabic. If one judges by the oldest manuscripts of the collection which will be called "Koran" in turn,they were more a kind of notes and memory aids that consisted of a manual (hence initial drafting of simple consonant letters without vowels). The form of some verses indicates in some cases writings of Arab followers, future preachers, under the dictation of their Nazarene masters. Every preacher should have with him his sheets to prepare and organize his sermons. These are specifically collections, selections (sometimes divergent) and manipulations of these sheets after 640 that will be the source of the Quran in the Islamic conditions we have explained. The lectionaries that had been translated into Arabic were then destroyed, as well as judeonazarene reference texts (lectionaries in Aramaic, Gospel, Torah, that is to say the "Book ", the "Mother Writing&quot. They remembered too much of the memory of the old masters of the religion for them to survive.

                                    | Quranic Text
                                    | Meaning in Islam
                                    | Decrypted

                                    | The Detailed Verses
                                    4144 Had We sent this as a Qur'an other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! not in Arabic and They are being called from a place far distant!" (IFTA translation)
                                    | (pre-Hijra)
                                    Muhammad faces the fierce opposition of the Meccans. Allah here takes note of their criticism of the choice of Arabic as the language of revelation of Quran. He explained later to Muhammad that despite all his efforts, the world is still divided between those who believe and those who will not believe.
                                    | The judeonazarene teacher explains to the Arab preacher the need for a lectionary in the Arab language for the use of preaching to his flock rather than returning them to the Hebrew scriptures or to a lectionary written in Aramaic which they could not understand and they would have considered alien to their culture. He gives him some arguments to convince the Arab audience of the benefits of this lectionary, while warning him that he will always find disbelievers facing him

                                    |

                                    | Yunus, or Jonah
                                    1037. This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds. (IFTA translation)

                                    | (pre-Hijra)
                                    Allah says the divine origin of the Quran and the truth, confirming the scriptures revealed before to the Jews and the Christians (original writings, they have falsified and who disappeared) on the immutable model of the heavenly Quran.

                                    | The judeonazarene master says his lectionary and the preaching which accompanies it does not blaspheme the Holy Scriptures on the contrary, they are based directly on the Torah, which is obviously coming from God himself.

                                    |

                                    | YUSUF, or Joseph
                                    121. Alif Lam Ra These are the symbols of the perspicuous Book.
                                    122. We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.
                                    123. We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this Qur'an before this, thou too was among those who knew it not.
                                    (IFTA translation)
                                    | (pre-Hijra)
                                    Allah speaks to Muhammad. It refers to the revelation of His own words contained in the Quran, even if it is not yet written at a time when the angel Gabriel conveyed the word of Allah to Muhammad. This revelation exceeds all previous revelations (meaning Jewish and Christian). The follow-up of the Sura will clarify the story of Joseph son of Jacob, persecuted prophet of Allah, of which the persecution must be put in parallel with that of Mohammed by the Meccans.

                                    | The Arab preacher, converted to judeonazarism (or judeonazarene himself) addresses an Arab audience and presents the translation he made to Arabic of the lectionary of texts from the Torah and the Gospel. He is about to review for his Arab audience the story of the biblical Joseph, contained in the "clear book" (the Torah). To do this, he adapted to Arabic a traditional Jewish tale relating to this Joseph; following this Surah 12 is indeed an incomprehensible comment except for those (Christian Arabs) already knowing the biblical account.

                                    |

                                    | Zukhruf, or Gold Adornments
                                    432. By the Book that makes things clear,-
                                    433. We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand .
                                    434. And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high , full of wisdom.
                                    (IFTA translation)

                                    | (pre-Hijra)
                                    God glorifies the celestial Quran (see Night Journey) and the revelation that He has done in Arabic to Mohammed for the Arabs and all the men following them so they can understand. This will allow him to urge the Meccans to be converted by dismantling their criticisms and their false religion in the rest of the Sura.

                                    | The judeonazarenes remind Arab preachers and the Arabs themselves, that they have translated into Arabic a lectionary consisting of selected texts from the Torah (the explicit "Book&quot which they keep in their possession, in Hebrew (the Mother Writing , the writing in sacred liturgical language). With this, the Arabs will be able to understand by themselves the wisdom that this precious Torah contains.

                                    |

                                    | Yunus, or Jonah
                                    1094. If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord so be in no wise of those in doubt.

                                    | (pre-Hijra)
                                    Faced with criticism from Makkah, Allah recommends Muhammad and Muslims to visit Christians and Jews who received during their time a similar revelation. This will prove difficult because they have falsified their scriptures. The meaning of this verse is to be taken in future, addressing the Muslims who doubt and recommending them to consult then Muslims more wiser and more advanced in knowledge of religion then themselves.

                                    | The preacher recommends its Arab audience to directly question the judeonazarenes when in doubt they have been reading the Torah for a long time and will be able to explain it to them, as well as this new religion they are preaching.

                                    | Qiyamat, or the Resurrection
                                    7416. Move not thy tongue concerning the to make haste therewith.
                                    7417. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it
                                    7418. But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital
                                    7419. Nay more, it is for Us to explain it
                                    (IFTA translation)

                                    | (pre-Hijra)
                                    The word Qur'an in these verses 17 and 18 is read as referring to the Qur'anic text. Therefore, we must expound the verses so they refer thereto. IFTA offers the translation of (16) as "Do not move your tongue to hasten its recitation (17) its collection (in your heart and fixing it in your memory) and how to recite it is our responsibility. According to the Islamic comments, we see here Allah asking Muhammad to not say more than what has already been revealed to him and comply exactly with the terms of the recitation of the Qur'an as it was made by the angel Gabriel, without trying to interpret it for himself which comes only Allah. These verses guarantee that Muhammad preached the exact revelation of Allah, no more, no less. The affirmation of the impossibility for man to interpret the Quran (which belongs only to Allah Himself) is taken in s3,7 "(...) no one knows the interpretation but Allah. "

                                    |
                                    The word "Qur'an" means the lectionary (recitation) translated by judeonazarenes for their Arab allies. The manipulations of the Qur'anic text of the time of the caliphs wanted to make it evoke the heavenly Quran (that is the purpose of the additions). But here it appears with its original meaning, that of recitation. What did the Arabs have to recite? What they learned about the "Day of Judgment". Regis Blachere and offers this translation (17) we collect it and preach it. (1 When we preach it, be in preaching. The meaning of these verses is therefore entirely fitting the theme of Sura 75 the judgment that is to come, the end of time, the advent of the perfect society impatiently expected by the judeonazarenes and their Arab allies. In the particular extract of this Surah, we see the judeonazarene master berating his pupil, a preacher in the Arabic language feverish at the prospect of the "Day of Judgment". They urge him to adhere strictly to the teaching he receives with the texts of the lectionary which he must learn by heart, and whose compilation (order) and explanation only befall to the judeonazarenes fall.

                                    |

                                    | Baqara, or the Heifer
                                    21 Alif, Lam, Mim
                                    (IFTA translation)

                                    Sometimes abbreviated as "ALM", these letters are included in the introduction to 29 of the 113 suras in the Quran. Other group of of letters are included in the same way opening other suras

                                    | (pre-Hijra)
                                    The editor states that "the letters of the alphabet do not have any special meaning. The Prophet himself did not seem to have clarified their meaning. "These letters are still an enigma of Islam. Numerous commentators consider them one of the miracles of the Qur'an, only Allah knows their meaning.

                                    |
                                    The letters "A", "L", "M" in Hebrew are the abbreviation for "God of salvation " the traditional opening for the religious Jews and judeonazarenes for their prayers and sermons. Their frequent use in the Quran opening suras unquestionably indicates its Jewish references, or rather judeonazarene references. These being completely forgotten by the Muslim tradition is very revealing of the former retraction of these references.

                                    The text in brackets (...) are the comments or aids to understanding the Qur'anic text added by the publisher, according to Islamic tradition (glosses). We also added a case by case text in brackets to assist in the understanding of the text cited are the words of the Quran in Arabic transliterated into Latin script or reading notes. The translations used the IFTA (canonical reference translation) of Regis Blachere (French orientalist) or Muhammad Hamidullah (more literal translation, and often closer to the Arab sense).
                                    In addition to the reading notes are present in most editions of the Qur'an and various Islamic scholars of tafsir, the internet is full of websites explaining the meaning of the Quran by the Islamic discourse that accompanies it. This one, for example, is quite well done

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • J Offline
                                      J Offline
                                      Jafar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #126

                                      The letters "A", "L", "M" in Hebrew are the abbreviation for "God of salvation " the traditional opening for the religious Jews and judeonazarenes for their prayers and sermons. Their frequent use in the Quran opening suras unquestionably indicates its Jewish references, or rather judeonazarene references. These being completely forgotten by the Muslim tradition is very revealing of the former retraction of these references.

                                      Interesting hypothesis, do you have any reference?

                                      ALM in Hebrew will be Aleph Lamed Mem

                                      It might be a shortened / abbreviated form of Aleph Lamed He Yod Mem (Elohym)

                                      Or Aleph Lamed Mem (Eylem) itself in Hebrew means "Silence! or Hush!", a saying telling the audience to be quiet and pay attention to the speaker.
                                      Ref http//www.studylight.org/lexicons/hebrew/hwview.cgi?n=482

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • O Offline
                                        O Offline
                                        Olaf
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #127

                                        Hi Jafar

                                        About ALM

                                        Runninglikezebras translated what I wrote in French about "ALM" into "God of salvation". One can also translate into "God of deliverances" (but "salvation" is very close to "deliverances&quot

                                        ALM in Hebrew 'el lem?sh??t
                                        A= alif = first letter of Hebrew 'el = Arabic il?h
                                        L= preposition
                                        M = first letter of m?sh??t

                                        This can be found in Psalm 68,21 (or 68,20, depending on editions) "Our God is a God of Deliverances"
                                        You can see it here
                                        http//qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/psalms/68.html
                                        http//www.messianic-torah-truth-seeker.org/Scriptures/Tenakh/Tehillim/Tehillim68.htm

                                        The scholar who found this is austrian professor Kurt Hruby (he was catholic, born from a jewish mother, studied the Talmud at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and was a judaism teacher at the Catholic Institute of Paris). This can be found in Bruno-Bonnet Eymard's translation of the Quran (Le Coran, traduction et commentaire syst?matique, tome 1), also in Sami Awad Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh's translation (Le Coran, version bilingue arabe-fran?aise), and of course in Edouard-Marie Gallez's thesis (Le Messie et son Proph?te). Those are all French editions ...

                                        The intepretation you provided as "silence" is also very interesting ! I will discuss it with Edouard-Marie Gallez. It also links the Quran to a jewish/aramaic background.

                                        The scientific approach of the Quran is very new, lots and lots of things like this are to be discovered. Still, there is no scientific edition of the Quran yet. The work of Corpus Coranicum project is painstakingly slow ....

                                        Peace,

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • H Offline
                                          H Offline
                                          hicham9
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #128

                                          To my knowledge, the quranic term for 'salvation/deliverence' is 'prqan'.

                                          That said,

                                          ALM

                                          Lit ? Bind (MSA &#1591
                                          Fig ? Mute (MSA &#1578

                                          Arabic ? Hebrew

                                          (1) Silence (MSA &#1578. i.e. Be silent. Be mute (or speechless).
                                          (2) A primitive root; to tie fast; hence (of the mouth) to be tongue-tied - i.e., Bind, b

                                          |

                                          e dumb, put to silence.


                                          Etymology
                                          Biblical Hebrew ? (alam)

                                          Noun (il?m) ? Mute (unable to speak)
                                          Verb (il?m) ? transitive ? (He/it) bundled, bound.

                                          Phonetic Spelling aw?lam / Arabic Spelling alm (or alm&#702


                                          Quranic Frequency
                                          6 times (21, 31, 291, 301, 311, 321)

                                          Biblical Frequency
                                          http//biblesuite.com/hebrew/481.htm
                                          http//biblesuite.com/hebrew/strongs_481.htm

                                          The above is not necessarily correct.

                                          Slm

                                          1 Reply Last reply
                                          0
                                          Reply
                                          • Reply as topic
                                          Log in to reply
                                          • Oldest to Newest
                                          • Newest to Oldest
                                          • Most Votes


                                          • Login

                                          • Don't have an account? Register

                                          • Login or register to search.
                                          • First post
                                            Last post
                                          0
                                          • Categories
                                          • Recent
                                          • Users