How to prostrate....On CHIN or on FOREHEAD?

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Thank you brother. Well said.
However, I think learning start by asking P

Learn the message of the Quran first. Then youll understand that "salat" and "sujud" are not mindless rituals, but natural and logical concepts.

To my understanding, "salat" is turning towards God's law and guidance by reading and upholding the Quran. "Sujud" is done, meaning acknowledging and obeying the signs/messages of God.

Man_of_Faith

Progressive1993,

You walk alright bro. That is exactly what qum salat refers to.

You are also right about sujud.

I have worked hard to elaborate on that point to thoroughly show that this is exactly what salateh means. People just need to reflect upon the alleged praying birds. Are they praying in midair or are they guiding each other and FOLLOW THE OTHER CLOSELY (see saad-lam-waw definition in Lane's Lexicon).

The word salateh means "guidance" as object more or less. It literally refers to perception (of path-taking or being).

It would collide with the meaning of huda , if it had the right meaning traditionally, but it does not. Huda means grace/blessing/gift (gift can be verified by Lane's).

Salaam

theAlchemist

Following is my very personal understanding of the word kharra which means fell down. This trilateral roots kha-ra-ra ( &#1585 occurs 12 times in the whole Quran in one derived form and that is verb kharra. These 12 occurrences are as follows

(Yusuf Ali)

007143 When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.

012100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.

016026 Those before them did also plot (against Allah's Way) but Allah took their structures from their foundations, and the roof fell down on them from above; and the Wrath seized them from directions they did not perceive.

017107 Say "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,

017109 They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.

019058 Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.

019090 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,

022031 Being true in faith to Allah, and never assigning partners to Him if anyone assigns partners to Allah, is as if he had fallen from heaven and been snatched up by birds, or the wind had swooped (like a bird on its prey) and thrown him into a far-distant place.

025073 Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind;

032015 Only those believe in Our Signs, who, when they are recited to them, fall down in prostration, and celebrate the praises of their Lord, nor are they (ever) puffed up with pride.

034014 Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).

038024 (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).

Let?s assume ?Felling down to chin? has a 50-50 chance to be a physical act or an idiomatic phrase. All occurrences stated above indicate the falling down as a physical act without verse 2573.
Only verse 2573 is resemble the phrase fall in love, darkness fall upon them etc.

Saheeh International

And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall upon them deaf and blind.

In the rest of the occurrences fell down on /to ground fits the context.
Then why it would be exceptional where it is associated with the word prostration?

From my own view of understanding I believe that sujud or prostration doesn?t mean to place your forehead or chin on the ground. In verse 17107 it first tell us to fall on our chin and then prostrating. If prostrating means fall on ground then what the use of fall on chin?
What if I say sujud means prostrate,being humble, submissive or to salute, honour, magnify by lower/or bend oneself down towards the ground?

All I?m saying that the core part of a prostration is humble, submissive, adore, make obeisance, to honour/salute/magnify, to pay respect etc. But it should be supported by body languages.

Allah knows best.
Let Allah develop our mind enough to reach the most rational understanding of His noble book.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

can also mean a change from something to another, i.e. a transition. This is why which is traditionally The Hereafter uses this root. literally means The Transition.

You can always try that on instances where you translate "fall down". For example, change into tears etc rather than fall into. Also sujud is not physical so it can be that they turned into respect or reverence rather than physically prostrating. And the mountains were turned into rubble etc. I doubt sujud has the connotation as far as actual prostration. It needs more advanced vocabulary.

Salaam

GODsubmitter

Progressive1993,

You walk alright bro. That is exactly what qum salat refers to.

You are also right about sujud.

I have worked hard to elaborate on that point to thoroughly show that this is exactly what salateh means. People just need to reflect upon the alleged praying birds. Are they praying in midair or are they guiding each other and FOLLOW THE OTHER CLOSELY (see saad-lam-waw definition in Lane's Lexicon).

The word salateh means "guidance" as object more or less. It literally refers to perception (of path-taking or being).

It would collide with the meaning of huda , if it had the right meaning traditionally, but it does not. Huda means grace/blessing/gift (gift can be verified by Lane's).

Salaam

Please pardon my intrusion or interruption here, but, would you be so kind to indicate me where I could find your final explanation of salat and sojood, without too elaborate texts and lengthily explanations?
Thank you @Man of Faith

Man_of_Faith

The recent posting in The Nearness and Guidance thread has one about salateh.

Sujud is not particularly hard to figure out, it means to show respect/submissiveness, without direct physical connotation. Bowing, prostration or shaking hand is a voluntary expression, and need further vocabulary to write about.

Salaam

GODsubmitter

Thank you

Mazhar

The recent posting in The Nearness and Guidance thread has one about salateh.

Sujud is not particularly hard to figure out, it means to show respect/submissiveness, without direct physical connotation. Bowing, prostration or shaking hand is a voluntary expression, and need further vocabulary to write about.

Salaam

Verb Sajada

What type of verb is this? Action or stative; transitive or intransitive; relational or non relational

JavaLatte

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.30g.gif

"Be informed that I am placing-declaring Adam in the Earth as self-governor enjoying freedom-discretion-free will of self rule-decision-governance".

Where is the seat of self governing? Where is the seat of executive functions of this self governing sovereign?

It lies in the prefrontal area of brain located behind the forehead. http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.034/150.%20Isjidoo%20Seen%20Jeem%20Daal/5.gif The act of laying the forehead on the ground for Allah the Exalted explicitly expresses the willful and affectionate surrender of one's will and self governing liberty at the mercy of the Will of the Sustainer Lord. This non verbal communication to Allah the Exalted much loudly expresses that henceforth one will not follow his own will, but will regulate and administer his life and actions according to the dictates conveyed through the elevated and honoured Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam in the Book Grand Qur'aan.

I think there are parts of your statement above which beneficial for me to strengthen my understanding of prostration, insha'Allah.

Btw, I hope you could make another posts on this forum again, big brother Mazhar.

I like your firm attitude* on this forum! yay

(*it seems that you have strict/firm attitude, I'm sorry if I'm wrong)

Salaam.

ths

Peace Wakas,

Professor Mustansir Mir in "Verbal Idioms of The Quran", cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom implying extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in The Quran means to humble oneself before God, and cites Classical Arabic poem by Imru al-Qays about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they "fell to the chin". It is unlikely a tree would actually fall down due to a heavy downpour of rain, but it is possible to take it as a physicall fall.

Grammatically, the accusative word "sujjudan" in "yakhorruun lil'adhqaan sujjudan" names the action or manner of the verb preceding. In other words, it describes how "they fell to their chins". So if "they fell to their chins" is an idiom then "sujjadan" is also idiomatic and is not body-physical.

Firstly, didn't you contact Mustansir Mir a few years ago and he confirmed to you that he thinks they are physically prostrating here and that only "chins" is idiomatic? I don't want to have to dig up that argument from 3 years ago.

Secondly, you are fond of repeating the argument that the whole phrase has to be an idiom if a part of it is an idiom. This is not the case, as we've discussed before, and as I've said, the addition of "chins" is just to add intensity

.

The literal expression is "i bought it for the cheapness of dirt".
The actual meaning is "i bought it for really cheap"

So the purchase was very cheap, and adding "turab" (dirt) into the phrase just adds intensity

Another one

The literal meaning is "he hit him a hit"
The actual meaning is "he hit him really hard"

Together they make an idiomatic phrase, because "he hit him a hit" is nonsense if taken literally, but the addition of the 2nd word adds intensity to the hit that actually happened.

Another one in English

"It rained cats and dogs"

"cats and dogs" is not an idiomatic phrase alone. I can't say "I feel cats and dogs", or "she screamed cats and dogs".

Cats and dogs is only an idiom when paired with "rain". The accepted form of the expression is "it is raining cats and dogs"

Does it still rain? Yes it does!

Another one

"I am feeling blue"

Blue here means 'sad'.
But it only means 'sad' when added to 'feeling'.

I can't say "that event was really blue" or "the way she said that was really blue"

I can only use "blue" for "sad" when talking about feelings.

Some more

A little bird told me
I am so hungry I could eat a horse
I caught her red-handed
I slept like a log
I slept like a baby
Dressed to the nines
He was armed to the teeth

So you and Ayman have misinterpreted how idioms work and built up an argument on this false assumption.

It is completely possible to have an idiomatic phrase where the action still occurs, and the dependent words only add intensity to the action. Unless you want to claim that it doesn't rain when it's raining cats and dogs, or that you didn't sleep when you slept like a log, etc. etc..

The entire argument here is that if you really want to be 'armed', you need to have weapons on your teeth. Otherwise "armed to the teeth" is entirely idiomatic and there are no weapons anywhere!

good_logic

Peace ths.

I have the same problems / issues with many who want to apply "our human rules" about grammar/spelling/meaning of words to Qoran.

We simply do not/cannot match that standard . GOD s standard of the language is amazing/perfect when it comes to Qoran.

One needs "wahi" /inspiration/ GODs help when it comes to Qoran as well as all the knowledge one can acquire of Arabic.

Rules can be applied/broken/defy our logic... Actually as GOD puts it" BAL AJIBTA WA YASKHAROON"!!!!!!

Here is just a small example, how do we translate?

Using the normal "word by word meaning" will render the verse as nonsensical garbage?

I keep saying GOD means it when He clearly says " LA YAMASSUHU ILLA ALMUTAHAROON"!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace ths,

Firstly, didn't you contact Mustansir Mir a few years ago and he confirmed to you that he thinks they are physically prostrating here and that only "chins" is idiomatic? I don't want to have to dig up that argument from 3 years ago.

Yes, and I mentioned that on the forum. However, that does not mean I agree with his interpretation.

Secondly, you are fond of repeating the argument that the whole phrase has to be an idiom if a part of it is an idiom. This is not the case, as we've discussed before, and as I've said, the addition of "chins" is just to add intensity

Bro Ayman was the first to mention this argument and you and him discussed this a fair bit and he did not agree with you (if I recall correctly). I also do not agree. I do not think you (and others, such as Lane) are being consistent or comparing like with like in your examples. It would be good to have others knowledgeable of Arabic analyse the examples to test this.

In my view
yakhorruun lil'adhqaan sujjudan ~ they fall to the chin sujjudan
"sujjudan" describes the manner in which they "fall to the chin" <--- to my knowledge, this is the same as bro Ayman's view
The idiom is "fall to the chin" not simply the word "chin"
"fall to the chin" means extremely humbled / extreme humility

Thus, my understanding of its use in Quran is that they submit/pay respect/honour (i.e. SJD) with extreme humility, or, with extreme humility they submit/honour/pay respect

Makes sense to me. And even you must admit, this is a theoretical possibility?

ths

Ok questions

When someone is "armed to the teeth", are they still armed? Is not the addition of the word "teeth" here the only actual idiom in the phrase? Why does this example not apply to "they fall to the chins" ? It is an identical analogy, except in the first people are actually armed and in the second no one falls because 'the whole phrase has to be an idiom'.
In 1958, the blessed people "kharruu sujjadan wa bakiyyan". Both SJD and BKY are in accusative. Does this mean that they were neither falling nor weeping?
Have you re-translated the word rukoo3 as well? In your article you've translated it as inclining/humbling. Has the physical aspect of this word been eliminated as well?

Bro Ayman was the first to mention this argument and you and him discussed this a fair bit and he did not agree with you (if I recall correctly). I also do not agree. I do not think you (and others, such as Lane) are being consistent or comparing like with like in your examples.

And neither of you have provided any evidence of your linguistic rule. Both of you are simply claiming that the whole phrase has to be an idiom, and continue to do so when faced with multiple everyday examples (like 'armed to the teeth&#039 that break your linguistic rule. As well as Lane's Lexicon that specifically gives examples of this phrase when applied to trees.

Either way, I'll try to dig up some Arabic phrases until I find one like 'armed to the teeth'.

Thus, my understanding of its use in Quran is that they submit/pay respect/honour (i.e. SJD) with extreme humility, or, with extreme humility they submit/honour/pay respect

Yes, no one, even the most ardent sunnis deny this. You can go and pose this to any corner-mosque sunni sheikh and he will agree with you. The point is, as Lane's Lexicon so clearly explains, that sujood is physical prostration with humility, and not khudoo3 and khushoo3 which mean submissive humility but have no physical connotation. The Quran is filled with the term khushoo3 KHSH3 to describe the true believers, and it also uses khudoo3 KHD3 in 264, so why use this particular word and why pair it with falling and bowing? Because that's what it means.

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace everyone,

I think that Wakas's understanding of the word Sujud is correct. Also, the word Sujud seems to be related to obedience. Because in verse 2278, the word Sujud (wa-usjudu) comes right before the word Ibada (wa-abudu), which means service. Hence it seems that the word Sujud (wa-usjudu) is connected to the word Ibadah (wa-abudu), in verse 2278. Is it possible to serve the creator before obeying the creator's laws/commandments? If we do not obey the creator's laws/commandments, then how can we serve the creator? These questions are worth pondering upon, in my opinion.

It seems that there is a possibility that the word Sujud means physical prostration. But in verse 2218, the Quran suggests that the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees and the beasts Sujud themselves before God.

Quran 2218 ART THOU NOT aware that before God Sujud themselves all that are in the heavens and all that are on earth, the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts, whereas many will inevitably have to suffer ; and he whom God shall scorn will have none who could bestow honour on him for, verily, God does what He wills.

If Sujud means physical prostration in verse 2218, does that mean that the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees and the beasts physically prostrate before God, like a praying man? Does that sound logical? Does that sound possible? Or does the word Sujud means something else than physical prostration in verse 2218? If the word Sujud means something else than physical prostration in verse 2218, is there a possibility that the word sujud means something else than physical prostration in regards to Salat as well? These questions are worth pondering upon, in my opinion.

Quran 8420-21 What, then, is amiss with them that they will not believe ? and , when the Qur'an is read unto them, they do not fall down in Sujud?

In verses 8420-21, the Quran suggests that those who do not believe, do not fall down in Sujud when the Quran is read to them. If Sujud means physical prostration in verses 8420-21, does that mean that people should physically prostrate before God, like a praying man, when the Quran is read to them? Does that sound logical? Does that sound possible? Or does the word Sujud means something else than physical prostration in verses 8420-21? If the word Sujud means something else than physical prostration in verses 8420-21, is there a possibility that the word sujud means something else than physical prostration in regards to Salat as well? I think that these questions are worth pondering upon.

Quran 1648 Did they not see that what God has created, its shadow inclines to the right and the left Sujud to God, willingly?

In verse 1648, the Quran suggests that the shadow of what God has created, Sujud to God. If Sujud means physical prostration in verse 1648, does that mean that the shadow of what God has created, physically prostates to God, like a praying man? Does that sound logical? Does that sound possible? Or does the word Sujud means something else than physical prostration in verse 1648? If the word Sujud means something else than physical prostration in verse 1648, is there a possibility that the word sujud means something else than physical prostration in regards to Salat as well? In my view, these questions are also worth pondering upon.

There seems to be two logical explanations

The evidence we have seen in several Quranic verses, seem to suggest that the notion that the word Sujud means physical prostration, can be problematic. Because the above-mentioned quranic verses seem to suggest that the word Sujud means something else than physical prostration. And if that is the case, it seems to be possible that word Sujud does not mean physical prostration in regards to Salat as well.
The word Sujud can mean physical prostration in regards to quranic verses about Salat, but have other meanings in regards to those quranic verses that do not speak about Salat. It seems possible that the word Sujud has different meanings depending on the context of a quranic verse.

It seems that the above-mentioned explanations are the only explanations that make sense. In my view, there are no other logical explanations.

runninglikezebras

We can see that since the time of Abraham (alehisalam), even before Christianity and Judaism, Allah has been worshipped and prostrated.

Genesis 2017 Wa salee Abraham qadam Allaha .The second pillar of Islam is ?? (Salaah) which is the same word used in the Aramaic vers (salee). Here, the word means ?(he) prayed?. Worshipping God has always been the most basic and fundamental teaching of all the prophets. It was strictly forbidden to worship any other being, object entity, etc., except for Allah. This was made very clear in many places throughout the Bible as well as the Qur?an. Jesus for example states in Matthew 410 Kateeb geir dal? Marya Allahak tasjood, wa leh balhoodawhee tifloohIn John 424, he continues to express the attributes of Allah in terms of worshipping Him. In other words, images of any kind representing God were forbidden. This teaching is found in first of the Ten Commandments. This fundamental teaching is in complete harmony with Islam. Rooha haw geir Allaha, wwaylein d? sajdeen l eh, brooha wa bashrara wa le d? nesjedoon In these verses, Jesus cannot be anymore clear than this. He not only talks about the high importance of worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth, but also talks about prostrating to Him. In Matthew 410 he uses (tasjood), and in John 424 he uses (sajdeen) and (nesjedoon). All of these are derived from the Aramaic root s-j-d . The meaning is = (Sejed) To prostrate oneself; bow down; adore; worship. The Arabic equivalent is = (Sajada) Prostrated himself; to be submissive; obeisance; to adore. Prostrating was the common practice of worship for these prophets and those who followed them. Prostration is in fact the highest form of submission to Allah and is known to be the most favorable position to Allah; this is confirmed in the following references. Genesis 173 ?And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him, saying?? Joshua 514 ??And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship?? 1 Samuel 2041 ??(David) fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times?? Numbers 145 ??Moses and Aaron fell on their faces?? 1 Kings 1839 ??.they fell on their faces and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.? Matthew 2639 ?And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed??

I am very critical of those trying to remove the physical meaning of S-J-D. It's fully contradicting the etymology of the aramaic root.

truthseeker11

Peace Taro Hiroshi,