Is it zina?
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Im thinking about this. What is the different between being righteous and being evil. Suprisingly, there is no difference. Both need you to use your peakest potention. Both need extra work, and both need inteligence. But yeah, there is difference, while being good you face the worst temptation you ever see, while being evil, you face the worst life you ever see.
I wonder, why bother be a righteous? ;D
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Do note that "chick" is a derogatory term.
Sorry just got used to it sometimes
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Im thinking about this. What is the different between being righteous and being evil. Suprisingly, there is no difference. Both need you to use your peakest potention. Both need extra work, and both need inteligence. But yeah, there is difference, while being good you face the worst temptation you ever see, while being evil, you face the worst life you ever see.
I wonder, why bother be a righteous? ;D
Being evil is just...evil, no need to think deep about it
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Peace kameriderkiki, all,
So there's a reason behind my logic whether a sexual bond between a GF/BF is okay, so what are your thoughts on how the quran manages to deal with the two male and female above? does the quran categorized them as Fornicators since they have no papers, or witnesses,or parental agreement??
I think that the answer to your question can be found in the following verses of AQ.
Quran 231-7 Those who acknowledge are indeed successful. Those who are humble in their contact prayer. They abstain from vain talk. They are active towards betterment. They guard their private parts. Except around their mates, or those whom they have contractual rights, they are free from blame. But whosoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.
Quran 7019-31 Indeed, human being is created anxious. When adversity touches him he is miserable. When good touches him he is stingy. Except for those who make the contact prayer. Who are always maintaining their support/contact prayers. Those who set aside part of their wealth. For the seeker and the deprived. Those who acknowledge the day of Judgment. Those who are fearful of their Lord's retribution. The retribution of their Lord is not to be taken for granted. Those who conceal their private parts. Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame. Then, whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.
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In 23.1-7 what appears translated as "or those whom they have contractual rights" and what in 70.19-31 appears translated as "or tho0se sommitted by oath" is the same thing in arabic, that is "mamalakat aymanu..." and the terms "mates" and "spouses" which appear differently translated in both quotes, translate in fact the same word in arabic, that is, "azwaj".
Salaam
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Peace kameriderkiki, all,
I think that the answer to your question can be found in the following verses of AQ.
Quran 231-7 Those who acknowledge are indeed successful. Those who are humble in their contact prayer. They abstain from vain talk. They are active towards betterment. They guard their private parts. Except around their mates, or those whom they have contractual rights, they are free from blame. But whosoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.
Quran 7019-31 Indeed, human being is created anxious. When adversity touches him he is miserable. When good touches him he is stingy. Except for those who make the contact prayer. Who are always maintaining their support/contact prayers. Those who set aside part of their wealth. For the seeker and the deprived. Those who acknowledge the day of Judgment. Those who are fearful of their Lord's retribution. The retribution of their Lord is not to be taken for granted. Those who conceal their private parts. Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame. Then, whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...
In my opinion i think gf/bf relationship are categorized as wives committed by oath ,since they have committed to each other even though there are no dowries set by the female, and marriages are not determined only by dowries according to the quran.
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In my opinion i think gf/bf relationship are categorized as wives committed by oath ,since they have committed to each other even though there are no dowries set by the female, and marriages are not determined only by dowries according to the quran.
When I first read your early posts on this thread I thought they seemed insincere (i.e. you weren't interested in what Quran says, and simply wanted answers that would justify your pre-conceived views).
Your lack of reply to the points in my posts, failure to provide Quranic evidence and your subsequent posts, especially the one above confirms what I thought about you is true.In my view you are not sincere, thus not worth replying to. Peace out.
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In my opinion i think gf/bf relationship are categorized as wives committed by oath ,since they have committed to each other even though there are no dowries set by the female, and marriages are not determined only by dowries according to the quran.
If I were you, I would take that nonsensical/foolish opinion and throw it into oblivion. Because there is ABSOLUTELY NO QURANIC EVIDENCE that supports your opinion. Therefore your opinion is based on your selfish purposes/desires. Your opinion is NOT BASED ON THE QURAN.
If you want to have a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with sexual relations, no one is stopping you. But if you think that the Quran supports your opinion, then you are wrong/mistaken. And if you say that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are categorized as wives, then you might be inventing a lie against God. Because God is the author of the Quran. Hence the words in the quran are God's words. Therefore, I advise you to refrain from saying such a thing in the future. By the way, there are many verses in the Quran that warn us from inventing lies against God. If I were you, I would read them (see verse 3094, 450, 5103, 621, 693, 6144, 737, 1017, 1059, 1060, 10 69, 1118, and 6117).
The aim/objective of this life is to get/come closer to God. The aim/objective of this life is not to indulge in a hedonistic lifestyle. In my view, the way to get/come closer to God is through obedience/humility. And in my view, one obeys God by obeying God's laws/commandments. From my understanding of the Quran, if someone has sexual relations outside of marriage (with a boyfriend/girlfriend), then he/she is being disobedient. Because he/she is not obeying the laws/commandments of the Quran. The Quran suggests that you have to be obedient if you want to get a rich reward.
Quran 3335 For men and women who are devoted to God- believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember God often- God has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.
If you worked for a company and did not give a sh** about the laws/rules of that company, do you think that your boss would give you a higher salary? Do you think that your boss would promote you? Do you think that your boss would like you? Why would your boss raise your salary, promote you, or like you, if you did not give a sh** about the laws/rules of his company, and breaked/ignored those laws/rules? Why would your boss raise your salary, promote you or like you, if you did not obey the laws/rules of his company? Why would your boss reward you if you did not do the things which he told you to do? You should think/reflect on these questions.
Understand You are like the employee of the company (that I mentioned above). And Islam is like that company. And the laws/commandments of the Quran are like the laws/rules of that company. Thus, if you want to succeed and get rewarded in this life and in the next life, then you have to obey the laws/commandments of the Quran. Disobedience is not an option.
Understand You are supposed to change your lifestyle to fit your religion, not alter the teachings of your religion to fit your lifestyle. If you change your religion to fit your life, then you are being dishonest, disloyal and insincere. And if you only accept the laws/commandments and principles in the quran that suit your lifestyle, then you are following islam half- heartedly. Is that your goal? Is your goal to follow islam half-heartedly? Is your goal to be a half-hearted muslim? If you worked for a company and you only followed half of the laws/rules of that company, while ignoring/breaking the rest of the laws/rules of that company, do you think that your boss would reward you? Do you think that your boss would give you more responsibilty and better pay? Do you think that your boss would like you? You should think/reflect on these questions.
I don't know about you, but personally, I would not follow islam half-heartedly. Personally, I would not be able to only accept those quranic verses that suit my inclinations/preferences, while ignoring/rejecting the rest. If I ignored/rejected a lot of quranic verses and pretended that they did not exist I would end up living a lie. And if I lived such a life my conscience would haunt me alive. Every quranic verse I rejected would hit (my conscience) like a shot from a shotgun. And those shots would create spiritual bulletwounds in my conscience. Because my conscience is not bulletproof. My conscious is penetrable and soft like wool. But you, on the other hand, seem to be a superhuman with a bulletproof conscience.
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Peace everyone,
GF/BF relationship definitely cannot be categorized as marriage or spouses as per al-quran. Agreed that if something is not present in al-quran and is attributed to allah by claiming it to be present in al-quran, it is inventing a lie about allah.
I have some relevant questions for which I need everyone's help
- What is your understanding of the following verses?
235 And they guard/protect their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.7029 And those who guard/protect their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
7031 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.Private parts are to be guarded/protected around everyone except mates/spouses and MMA. What exactly do you understand by "lifuroojihim hafithoon"? What does guarding/protecting private parts mean?
- Which verse/verses in al-quran prohibit sex with any adult except spouse? Need the specific verse/verses please.
As defined in al-quran, zina is public sex witnessed by at least 4 witnesses. So by definition even if a husband and wife have public sex with each other in front of at least 4 witnesses, it will be zina. So zina itself can include a married couple having public sex with each other in front of at least 4 witnesses, and thus is not prohibition of sex with any adult except spouse, but just prohibition of public sex in front of 4 or more witnesses.
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What is fahisha as defined by al-quran as opposed to our subjective interpretation?
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Where is sex with any adult except spouse defined as fahisha in al-quran? Need verse/verses please.
Let's keep the principle of not inventing lies about allah in mind while answering these questions.
1059 Say "Have you seen what allah has sent down to you from provisions, then you have made some of it forbidden and some lawful?" Say "Did allah authorize you, or do you invent lies about allah?"
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about allah. Those who invent lies about allah will not succeed.
Peace
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My conscious is penetrable and soft like wool. But you, on the other hand, seem to be a superhuman with a bulletproof conscience.
Well you're kinda wrong, from my "Salat is not physical" post you managed to convince me that salat isn't really physical, and i'm grateful for that and god bless you, but your accusation about me being not open minded and inventing lies towards God seems to came out of nowhere, i've stated the reason why a gf/bf relationship is on the same level because of this verse saying wives committed by oath;
" O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,..."
Then please explain to me how i'm inventing lies towards GOD, since my opinion is based on my own interpretation that's different than your's which you too have that some i don't agree with.
And if you say that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are categorized as wives, then you might be inventing a lie against God. Because God is the author of the Quran. Hence the words in the quran are God's words. Therefore, I advise you to refrain from saying such a thing in the future. By the way, there are many verses in the Quran that warn us from inventing lies against God. If I were you, I would read them (see verse 3094, 450, 5103, 621, 693, 6144, 737, 1017, 1059, 1060, 10 69, 1118, and 6117).
People in this forum seems to forget that we're in a forum called "Free-minds" where people can share their thoughts and wondrous interpretation of the quran without hesitation and without worrying that they'll get lynced or be labeled as blasphemers.
Like it or not the quran has a lot of interpretation, you have your own interpretation and i have mine, and keep in mind that not everyone in this forum agrees on your interpretation also.
So please think before you accuse me of inventing lies towards god or not open minded(superhuman with a bulletproof conscience) out of the blue, not trying to spread cancer in free-minds or anything we just have our own interpretaion
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When I first read your early posts on this thread I thought they seemed insincere (i.e. you weren't interested in what Quran says, and simply wanted answers that would justify your pre-conceived views).
Your lack of reply to the points in my posts, failure to provide Quranic evidence and your subsequent posts, especially the one above confirms what I thought about you is true.In my view you are not sincere, thus not worth replying to. Peace out.
no one's forcing you to, peace
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Peace kamenriderkiki,
This is what I wrote in my post
"And if you say that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are categorized as wives, then you might be inventing a lie against God."
I DID NOT say that you are inventing a lie against God. I said that you might be inventing a lie against God. There is a difference between you are inventing a lie and you might be inventing a lie. Please ponder on this.
You seemed to be following your selfish purposes/desires (in some of your posts in this thread). Because, instead of letting the evidence in the Quran speak for itself, you seemed to be looking for reasons that support your preconceived notions about sexual relations. If you have made up your mind that girlfriends/boyfriends can have sexual relations before marriage, then you will only look for reasons that support your preconceived notions. And if I or someone else tell you something that goes against your preconceived notions, it will fall on deaf ears.
Also, you seemed to be dismissing Quranic evidence that went against your view about sexual relations before marriage (in some of your posts in this thread). Therefore, I was harsh with you because I thought it was the best way for you to learn. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing/rejecting Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me that I am wrong and disprove my views. And I would want you to use a harsh approach towards me. Because sometimes, that is the only thing that can shake us out of our slumber and make us understand that we are deceiving ourselves and leading ourselves down the path of darkness.
Also, you seemed to be implying that sexual relations between girlfriends/boyfriends is sanctioned/permitted by the Quran (in your first post in this thread). When I and Wakas showed you Quranic verses that did not support your view, you seemed to ignore/dismiss them. I believe that it is our duty to tell eachother what is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran. Therefore I can not tell you what you want to hear, but I will tell you what you need to hear. If someone is trying to jump down from a building, one should not tell him or her to jump, in my opinion. But I think that one should try to save that person, even if ones method is HARSH. In my view, sometimes one has to be harsh in order to get a point across. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me the same things that I told you (in my post). But each to their own, I guess.
The Quran suggests that every man and woman has sinned/wronged themselves at least once during their lifetime (see verse 3545). Also, it seems that all humans have a dark side. I think that one of the aims/objectives of this life is to eliminate our dark side. The Quran suggests that we will be held to account for all of our deeds in the next life. Therefore I think that it would be prudent to not do an action if it IS NOT RIGHT. Because an action that is not right seems to be BAD FOR THE SOUL/SELF. It seems that the devil sometimes tries to tempt God's servants in a tricky way. Therefore I think that it is vital to be aware/conscious of the vicious tricks of the devil. I would like to share a quote from a movie with you. In the 1995 movie "Usual Suspects", Roger "Verbal" Kint says the following
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
The Quran suggests that the devil advocates immorality and vice (see verse 2141). Also, the Quran suggests that the devil is an enemy to mankind (see verse 2168, 2208, 6147 and 722). Whether the devil is a force inside of ourselves or outside of ourselves, does not matter, in my opinion. In my view, the only thing which matters is the notion that the devil exists. And the notion that the devil exists, seems to be a fact. Also, the Quran seems to suggest that the devil has no power/influence over the faithful servants of God (see verse 1542 and 1765).
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Peace kamenriderkiki,
This is what I wrote in my post
"And if you say that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are categorized as wives, then you might be inventing a lie against God."
I DID NOT say that you are inventing a lie against God. I said that you might be inventing a lie against God. There is a difference between you are inventing a lie and you might be inventing a lie. Please ponder on this.
You seemed to be following your selfish purposes/desires (in some of your posts in this thread). Because, instead of letting the evidence in the Quran speak for itself, you seemed to be looking for reasons that support your preconceived notions about sexual relations. If you have made up your mind that girlfriends/boyfriends can have sexual relations before marriage, then you will only look for reasons that support your preconceived notions. And if I or someone else tell you something that goes against your preconceived notions, it will fall on deaf ears.
Also, you seemed to be dismissing Quranic evidence that went against your view about sexual relations before marriage (in some of your posts in this thread). Therefore, I was harsh with you because I thought it was the best way for you to learn. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing/rejecting Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me that I am wrong and disprove my views. And I would want you to use a harsh approach towards me. Because sometimes, that is the only thing that can shake us out of our slumber and make us understand that we are deceiving ourselves and leading ourselves down the path of darkness.
Also, you seemed to be implying that sexual relations between girlfriends/boyfriends is sanctioned/permitted by the Quran (in your first post in this thread). When I and Wakas showed you Quranic verses that did not support your view, you seemed to ignore/dismiss them. I believe that it is our duty to tell eachother what is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran. Therefore I can not tell you what you want to hear, but I will tell you what you need to hear. If someone is trying to jump down from a building, one should not tell him or her to jump, in my opinion. But I think that one should try to save that person, even if ones method is HARSH. In my view, sometimes one has to be harsh in order to get a point across. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me the same things that I told you (in my post). But each to their own, I guess.
The Quran suggests that every man and woman has sinned/wronged themselves at least once during their lifetime (see verse 3545). Also, it seems that all humans have a dark side. I think that one of the aims/objectives of this life is to eliminate our dark side. The Quran suggests that we will be held to account for all of our deeds in the next life. Therefore I think that it would be prudent to not do an action if it IS NOT RIGHT. Because an action that is not right seems to be BAD FOR THE SOUL/SELF. It seems that the devil sometimes tries to tempt God's servants in a tricky way. Therefore I think that it is vital to be aware/conscious of the vicious tricks of the devil. I would like to share a quote from a movie with you. In the 1995 movie "Usual Suspects", Roger "Verbal" Kint says the following
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
The Quran suggests that the devil advocates immorality and vice (see verse 2141). Also, the Quran suggests that the devil is an enemy to mankind (see verse 2168, 2208, 6147 and 722). Whether the devil is a force inside of ourselves or outside of ourselves, does not matter, in my opinion. In my view, the only thing which matters is the notion that the devil exists. And the notion that the devil exists, seems to be a fact. Also, the Quran seems to suggest that the devil has no power/influence over the faithful servants of God (see verse 1542 and 1765).
Okay Peace Taro, you know the quran doesn't tell us to have a big ceremony or anything or somekind of witness,right? and in god explains there's another way of marriage without dowry and that is commitment by oath, and i didn't dismiss wakas or your suggestions on some quranic verse i've read them all before i even started the thread!
The quran said there are wives that are lawful by dowry and oath, dowry seems to be another way to get married with your money and by a certain oath committed(without dowry) you can fall into the same category as married too
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Plus a marriage should not be determined with papers, and marriage issues should be solved by the couple without lawyers or a law involved to reduce hardships in a certain divorce
And once again i did not reject the quranic verse that you and @wakas brought me, but i'm trying to say that the quran provides a way for a couple to be categorized as married without dowry and that is by oath which a couple does before entering in a relationship.
Please hold your suspicion how i follow my greedy desire and @Wakas suspicions about how i ignore the quran and how insencere i am, i'm only here to have a healthy non-emotional discussion
O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
The reason i believe a gf/bf relationship is that i believe that the quran was supposed to evolve as time passes by and i believe that god uses flexible words to allow time and place to fit that person's situation.like in;
2431 "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."
god didn't told us what is necessary is but at some part of a certain country you need to be a little revealing if you want to fit in as time goes by this verse evolve, like wearing a hijab in the us, bad idea
and in O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
as time evolve
al-khamr(intoxicants) can mean drugs or any pharmaceutical ones that humans develop that can be a tool by the devil not just liquors
Al-Maisir(gamblin/games of chance) as time evolve it can be understood that it's just not gambling but any kind of game that involve luck and chance, for instance i got so hooked up in csgo that i forgot to salat, and in 591 al khamr and al-maisir are used to prevent believers from remebering god and contact prayer in todays world video games seems to be in the same cateogry as liquors because players have forgotten about salat after getting so
Al-Ansab(shrines) can mean any kind of place of worship not just altars but any kinds of place that involve a certain religious practice which by today used to manipulate their believers into doing evil things like spreading anti-semitism and such which probably all of us can relate
"Al-Azlam"(arrows of chance)in today's society, if they're in a tight situation they flip a coin to determined what they'll do next or any kind of decision making that uses luck even without arrows.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
And i've realized also that to prevent diseases like AIDS to spread we cannot teach our kids that sex with your gf is sin or forbidden or go to hell because they'll just forget from time to time, but what we need is to teach them about loyalty, whether it's in a gf/bf relationship or legal marriage it's the loyalty, trust, and compassion that needs to be taught to to a kid, and with this technique when they're a fully grown mature adult they've already learned to respect the partner that has given her whole body and soul to and i guarantee STD's and any other disease will dicrease every year as long as we see pass out of our traditional views on what marriage is.
And i think that's about it, that's my reason on how the quran evolves after a centuries and so as the definition of marriage from time to time
Btw nice Keizer soze quote! love kevin spacey! and the movie(watched it 2 times and loved every bryan singers movie) )
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When I first read your early posts on this thread I thought they seemed insincere (i.e. you weren't interested in what Quran says, and simply wanted answers that would justify your pre-conceived views).
Your lack of reply to the points in my posts, failure to provide Quranic evidence and your subsequent posts, especially the one above confirms what I thought about you is true.In my view you are not sincere, thus not worth replying to. Peace out.
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...
I have provided a verse which states there is a way to marry without dowry and that is by oath
Ask yourself wakas before you label me as insincere, you seemed to disagree also that this verse is saying there other ways to marry without dowry,are you being insincere also, and nothing in the quran that says we need an imam or a fancy seremony to be marriedand a gf/bf relationship seems to fit right in your conditions before marriage below
What does The Quran say about marriage?
The Quran gives guidelines and mentions situations and conditions that should be considered before marriage
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any)
Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract
If male, capable of providing for the family/household
To have physically matured / post-pubertyIf the marriage is unsuccessful, one should also be capable of undertaking divorce proceedings, e.g. separation period, arbitration, discussion of settlement etc .
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility CHECK
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith CHECK
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) (GF/BF relationship is a dowerless marriage and falls into the category of verse 3350)CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
If male, capable of providing for the family/household CHECK(The male usually provides more but sometimes each other if they're staying in the same house)
To have physically matured / post-puberty CHECK(In reality gf/bf relationships occurs in puberty they recognize love and intimacy after puberty)O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
Before you label me as insincere ask yourself why you disagree with the verse that says marriage with commitment by oath is possible is yourself being insincere also??A gf/bf relationship seems to check out above and the verse 3350 and, and @Wakas i didn't come here to have an emotional debate or judge or label people from what they think or write, i'm only here to have a healthy discussion
And do read my reply to TaroHiroshi on why the quran was meant to evolve from time to time
I'm interested to hear from you or your response @Wakas
Peace
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4.21.
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant? (21)This talking about marriage.
What is marriage? The signing of some papepr or the uttering of some words, or on the other thand THIS that the Qur'an calls "mithaq galith", that is going unto each other, or what is commongly called consumation or find "having sex".
This " mithaq ghalith" that Yusuf Ali translates a solemn covenant appears some other times int he Qur'an, ALL OF THEM, referring to a covenant between God and his prophets or between -god and the prophets people.
The mithaq galith is obviously the sexual act betwen the woman and the man.
?Is that marriage? Before God it obviously is. And in fact along history there has been a conscience that that is marriage, even if just "plain marriage", like de fato marriage or common law marriage.
Of course, people have been having sex without any intention at all of being in a mithaq ghalith. Does that mean that marriage is something else?
Yes for peole who do that marriage is something else, but not for God, because in no other case where the sex is not mentionned does God say or call anything mithaq ghalith.
Salaam
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Kamenriderkiki,
Firstly, you refer to a verse that is CLEARLY directed to the prophet. Do you take other verses directed to the prophet for all believers? Or have you not bothered to research this?
Secondly, you didn't mention anything about a contract. Probably because you either did not read my following posts in this thread or you did but selectively chose to ignore the information.
To have the marriage contract/oaths witnessed
And lastly, you did not comment on others posts about chastity before marriage, and not allowing for lewdness/illicit sex / secret lovers, e.g. 425, 55 etc.
If you are so confident of your position, simply write an article about it, tackling the potential objections/problems of your argument (e.g. some of them raised in this thread). Take your time, spend weeks, even months if you want. If you do that, then I might think you are sincere.
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Kamenriderkiki,
Firstly, you refer to a verse that is CLEARLY directed to the prophet. Do you take other verses directed to the prophet for all believers? Or have you not bothered to research this?
Secondly, you didn't mention anything about a contract. Probably because you either did not read my following posts in this thread or you did but selectively chose to ignore the information.
And lastly, you did not comment on others posts about chastity before marriage, and not allowing for lewdness/illicit sex / secret lovers, e.g. 425, 55 etc.
If you are so confident of your position, simply write an article about it, tackling the potential objections/problems of your argument (e.g. some of them raised in this thread). Take your time, spend weeks, even months if you want. If you do that, then I might think you are sincere.
O ye who believe! obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4 59)
The same message that the prophet got is the same for the other believers as well Wakas, They're humans just like us, no different, even they can't use their miracles as they please, only when God told them to
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
I posted some questions earlier in this thread but no one has answered them yet
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376593#msg376593
When I initially started studying al-quran I used to think like you about this issue but with further deep study, I was shocked to find out that some of my preconceived beliefs about this issue were not actually supported by al-quran! My personal desire and personal understanding might be that sexual relations outside marriage are forbidden, but is that personal desire or personal understanding really supported by al-quran?
There is a very long 100+ page thread on this forum where this very issue was discussed and debated in past, in which even some "heavyweights" participated, and you will be surprised at the conclusions based on quranic evidence. I will highly recommend reading it in its entirety if you really want to get to the bottom of this issue as per al-quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.0
A summary of this thread is as follows, but I would urge you to read the entire long thread to understand all the fine points
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604063.0
From my understanding of the Quran, if someone has sexual relations outside of marriage (with a boyfriend/girlfriend), then he/she is being disobedient. Because he/she is not obeying the laws/commandments of the Quran.
Can you please provide evidence from al-quran to support this quote of yours? More specifically, please provide proof from al-quran that all sexual relations outside of marriage are forbidden with MMA. Please read the above referenced thread first; provision of this proof is not expected in a hurry.
The general principal of al-quran is that the default state is not "forbidden" but DEFAULT STATE IS "PERMITTED". For example, in another thread hawk99 issued a challenge to anyone to show whether physical prostration is forbidden in al-quran, and if it is not forbidden, it is by default permitted. In other words, if something is not expressly/explicitly permitted in al-quran, it does not mean it is not permitted or that it is forbidden, unless it is expressly/explicitly forbidden.
Peace
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Okay Peace Taro, you know the quran doesn't tell us to have a big ceremony or anything or somekind of witness,right? and in god explains there's another way of marriage without dowry and that is commitment by oath, and i didn't dismiss wakas or your suggestions on some quranic verse i've read them all before i even started the thread!
The quran said there are wives that are lawful by dowry and oath, dowry seems to be another way to get married with your money and by a certain oath committed(without dowry) you can fall into the same category as married too
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Plus a marriage should not be determined with papers, and marriage issues should be solved by the couple without lawyers or a law involved to reduce hardships in a certain divorce
And once again i did not reject the quranic verse that you and @wakas brought me, but i'm trying to say that the quran provides a way for a couple to be categorized as married without dowry and that is by oath which a couple does before entering in a relationship.
Please hold your suspicion how i follow my greedy desire and @Wakas suspicions about how i ignore the quran and how insencere i am, i'm only here to have a healthy non-emotional discussion
O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
The reason i believe a gf/bf relationship is that i believe that the quran was supposed to evolve as time passes by and i believe that god uses flexible words to allow time and place to fit that person's situation.like in;
2431 "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."
god didn't told us what is necessary is but at some part of a certain country you need to be a little revealing if you want to fit in as time goes by this verse evolve, like wearing a hijab in the us, bad idea
and in O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
as time evolve
al-khamr(intoxicants) can mean drugs or any pharmaceutical ones that humans develop that can be a tool by the devil not just liquors
Al-Maisir(gamblin/games of chance) as time evolve it can be understood that it's just not gambling but any kind of game that involve luck and chance, for instance i got so hooked up in csgo that i forgot to salat, and in 591 al khamr and al-maisir are used to prevent believers from remebering god and contact prayer in todays world video games seems to be in the same cateogry as liquors because players have forgotten about salat after getting so
Al-Ansab(shrines) can mean any kind of place of worship not just altars but any kinds of place that involve a certain religious practice which by today used to manipulate their believers into doing evil things like spreading anti-semitism and such which probably all of us can relate
"Al-Azlam"(arrows of chance)in today's society, if they're in a tight situation they flip a coin to determined what they'll do next or any kind of decision making that uses luck even without arrows.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
And i've realized also that to prevent diseases like AIDS to spread we cannot teach our kids that sex with your gf is sin or forbidden or go to hell because they'll just forget from time to time, but what we need is to teach them about loyalty, whether it's in a gf/bf relationship or legal marriage it's the loyalty, trust, and compassion that needs to be taught to to a kid, and with this technique when they're a fully grown mature adult they've already learned to respect the partner that has given her whole body and soul to and i guarantee STD's and any other disease will dicrease every year as long as we see pass out of our traditional views on what marriage is.
And i think that's about it, that's my reason on how the quran evolves after a centuries and so as the definition of marriage from time to time
Btw nice Keizer soze quote! love kevin spacey! and the movie(watched it 2 times and loved every bryan singers movie)
I have to say I agree with both you and Taro to some degree.
With me, I have had sexual relations with my "boyfriends", but i do not call them boyfriends. They are my partner, a partner who I hope I will be with for a very long time. To me, when I get to know a man, and our relationship turns from friendship to something more, I ask if he is willing to commit himself to me and me alone - God be our witness. To me, this is an oath that is taken out between us - is that no essentially what a marriage is? What can be deemed as a dowry? What is deemed as a marriage? I am quite against the whole idea that in order for you to be married you need a ring on your finger and signing some book. As Man Of Faith once said to me, a marriage is between you, the other person and God. AND, you must not be promiscuous or trying to keep your feelings/relationship hidden from anyone else i.e. family etc. If you are true to yourself and know your intentions, there shouldn't be a need to "fit" the quran into your understanding. It is simply a guide - one that you can choose to follow or not, and the consequences of following and not following it are obvious because of how life will manifest itself.
This is a part of a discussion me and MoF were having together a while back
"God does actually say that an oath taken verbally is valid but that a formal "marriage contact" is for the benefit of both. One does not even need any other witness than God for the verbal one. Although in some communities it may look negative because people simply cannot comprehend that a marriage oath can be taken straight with God. God recommends following the laws to keep the respect, even if God accepts it as it is. A marriage ceremony is not required, simply writing a marriage contract by law is sufficient. Many women, perhaps also men, appreciate something romantic though and a memory."
God knows what is in our hearts... If we do not wish to be with someone for a long period of time or for the foreseeable future, then I would say it is not correct/good for the soul to do such a thing. I, myself, have done that once in my life where I didn't know the person for very long and they took advantage. But I had no enjoyment out of it and i was a bit scared to say no or run... but i wouldn't say that's following ones desires (there were none...). The desire to be with someone i.e. be held, cuddled, talked to, and understood is a much more powerful feeling to believers and ones who wish to live a moral decent life than those who wish to take advantage and release their sexual desires on others. I always tell people "if your urge is that bloody high, you have your hands to sort yourself out if need be... atleast it will tame your feelings and prevent you from giving yourself away to someone you don't even love/want to be with long-term". Sorry to be graphic about it, but that's literally how i see it... And love should rise above lust.... but with love, does come the need to sometimes be intimate with a loved one, and God outlines how you should be dealing with the situation and what your thoughts/actions should be. Everyone gets desires, but we must control them because of the effect it can have on ourselves and others.
Peace,
Sushi
