Why Should We Believe the Quran is Divine?

Osman

I see. You want me to convince you?

Quran 2111 - And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

So I ask you good logic to produce your proof, if you should be truthful.

I have asked 5 times to provide proof and 5 times you have avoided my challenge.

The first time I made this challenge was in the form of an open question to the whole Free-Minds community, you came forward of your own volition.

Qoran is a unique book, full of miracles, full of guidance and full of light. One of the unique characters of the Quran is that while it is a book of guidance to the sincere believers it would misguide those who are not sincere in seeking the truth.

This is is no more than God fulfilling His promise to give the humans what they asked for, to choose freely and decide to accept Him and His scroptures or not.

So is it me who is blind to your 'proofs' or is it you who is blind to my assertation that you have not provided any proof in the first place? I argue the latter.

I don't mean to criticise but your stance is identical to those fundamentalist Christians who argue that you can only 'get' the divinity of Christ if you allow Christ into your life - which equates to 'I have no proof'. I hold you and the other members of this community to a higher accountability than this.

As insulting as I may come across in this post it is you Sir who have hurled the greatest insult at me for simply asking for clear and straightforward proof of your assertation, and have levelled the accusation that I am of the evil wrongdoers whose heart is corrupt soimply because I have disagreed with you 4 (and now 5) times.

You can only accuse me of rejecting the clear proofs when you have presented those proofs.

You cannot imply that I have rejected the proofs when the proofs have not been revealed (and by that I mean within the context of this forum thread for the sake of discussion). The way you have approached the issue is to simply stifle all discussion.

We should not be taken by surprise when we find others reading the same verses or read about the miracles of the Qoran and get nothing out of them or even get the opposite understanding. It is God's system, "No compulsion in religion" 2256

We all know that there are over 1.5 billion Muslims around the world who read the same Qoran but most of them get nothing out of it or get a distorted meaning and understanding supported by corrupted scholars or others who are misguided because they chose to ignore God's teaching in the Qoran and go after man-made books .

You cannot say that someone is blind to the rationality of the right path when the path hasn't even been laid out to begin with! The path is the right assertation vs. the wrong assertation and as the verses you have shown details it is up to the people to chose between them.

Essentially for me there were no right or wrong answers in the sense that I was more interested at the kinds of reactions I would get with the proposal and depressingly it seems this community is in a dire situation. I wonder what kind of responses I would get on a Sunni or Shi'i forum. And to any who wish to argue out of the fact that this is a community. It clearly is, it is a community of those who wish to worship God alone through teachings established in the Quran. This online presence is all that people have in the form of a community as after years of existence it has failed to coalesce into the real world.

It's like we exist in an electronic limbo.

Thank you good logic for taking the time responding to my posts.

Peace.

NielsJacob

Peace Osman

The reason why we should belive that the Quran is Divine, is that can God make you see its Divine !
There aint in my view any shortcut or 100 % convincing arguments thats its from God.( Neighter that it aint)
But the claim is that the holy spirit has brought it down from God (16-102)
And since nobody really cant find real mistakes in it. You should be able, if God lead you to belive, that it?s Divine

What I?m trying to say that it all come down to you relasenship with God. Cause its only if you belive in Gods sign you are led to the right path (16-104, 6-39).
And God lead the one he wants to the a straith path (16-93). So I dont belive that God make wrongdoers belive in his divine revalation. Thats why I think its Divine.

But I came to some second thoughts concerning this. If these terrorist belive in the Holy Quran, Why are they then led to do evil.
Maybe they dont know it at all or what? That couldbe a new topic,

Peace

Jafar

Hi all,

Me again! ;D I know I've been starting a lot of threads lately and I'm sure the mods don't mind as they've generated a bit of activity. My next question is plain and simple - why on earth should anyone believe that the Quran is divine?

Can you explain "What is Divine"?

So, my question now is - On what authority do we have that the Quran is divine and sent from the ruler of the universe and therefore serves as the basis and framework for what we should follow?

Authority?

In case of the Quran (the book) then it's based on the authority of those who wrote and compile it.
In this case it's "The authority of a caliph named Uthman bin Affan".
According to the "tale" as wrote by Bukhari some 200 years later..

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace Osman and everyone,

Interesting thread.

As far as I know, the Quran is the only scripture in the world that speaks about the creator of the Universe from a rational/logical perspective. And in my view, this is a proof that the Quran is divine. In addition to that, there are several verses in the Quran that seem to confirm observable phenomena in nature/reality. See the posts below.

Who created the God?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607021.msg359448#msg359448

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607021.msg359468#msg359468

Who/what is the God?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606664.msg376206#msg376206

Also, I recommend the book "The Amazing Quran" by Gary Miller.

https//archive.org/details/TheAmazingQuran.pdf

In my view, the Quran is the only scripture that gives humans true equality. Because the Quran seems to suggest that males and females are completely equal. Also, the Quran seems to be the only scripture that has the potential to eliminate racism from the society once and for all. See the post below

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607803.msg375932#msg375932

By the way, I would like to share a quote here. There is a quote by Mos Def which goes like this

"If Islam's sole interest is the welfare of mankind, then Islam is the strongest advocate of human rights anywhere on Earth."

good_logic

Peace Osman.

I understand you.

Now let me see if I can clarify here so you can understand me.

It is not my job to convince you or anyone of the divinity of Qoran. I can only give you my view/understanding.
Like you I started my journey by checking the same claim.Among many claims that I checked was this one
http//submission.org/Word_of_God.html

It is a process that one must undertake and check for themselves, if they are serious about finding out.

Actually Qoran issues this challenge quite confidently and authoritatively.

Different people will give you different reasons of why they do or do not hold the Qoran as divine.

However you must check each claim yourself,study Qoran, and make up your own mind according to your findings.

I speak only for me when I say I have my answer and I am certain Qoran is divine.

Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

ths

Salaam Osman!

I remember being immediately filled with fervent faith when coming cross the numerological miralces of the Quran and how this proved beyond doubt its divinity - I'm referring to "day" being mentioned 365 times and other words etc. in sites such as Harun Yahya, then when actually doing the work myself to validate this I remember feeling the dejection of low of realising that "day" doesn't appear 365 times at all and most of the claims made on sites like Harun Yahya's are bold faced lies.

Actually I hate to tell you this, but you're wrong. The word day does appear 365 times. I recently counted this myself and posted about it here.

I even provided pictures from the Quran software Zekr that I used to search for the words.

I got really excited and went and told some friends. And one of them responded with, "what about the word 'month'?"

I told him "That appears 12 times!"
The he asked "What about 'months'?"

Well..months, doesn't seem to have any relevance whatsoever, and now that has irritated me ever since he pointed it out! Why make 'day' appear 365 times, 'days' appear 30 times and 'month' appear 12 times, only for 'months' to appear a totally random number of times?

But I digress.

Actually I think that Quranic divinity is the result of a number of factors. The numerology aspect is definitely impressive to me, but there are a few other things that stand out to me.

First - we can immediately perceive in the tafsirs and hadiths plenty of manifestly incorrect things to do with science. For example, I believe it was in Ibn Kathir that it was stated that the earth sits floats on an ocean, which sits in a bowl, which sits on the horns of a bull...or something like that. The Quran has nothing like this. There isn't even a single occasion when the Quran says "if a fly falls into your drink, dip it into the liquid because the disease is on 1 wing and the cure for the disease is on the other." Do you see what I mean? The tafsirs and hadiths are perfect examples what everyday desert-dwelling people believed in 1400 years ago. The Quran isn't.

Secondly - the Quran has a mysteriously consistent logical exposition. Many stories are written in a step-by-step rational rhetorical style. I mentioned elsewhere in the forum that I started a project a few years ago that I abandoned out of laziness, where I tried to follow the Quran's logical argument. I found that the beginning of surah 2 has an extremely strong logical pattern. Just as an example

21-5 this is the book - an explanation of what the book is (hudan lil-muttaqeen). and an explanation of who these ppl are
5-20 definition of who the kuffar are > confrontations with others and lying (11,13,14)
17-20 analogies of the kuffar
21-26 therefore worship Him + reasons given for worship- creation, a catering environment, and paradise (25)
22-23 if you doubt then bring forth an equal surah or witnesses; this finishes the argument from beginning (let there be no doubt)
26 parable of a gnat
27-29 again describing the iniquitous. and giving reasons to believe.

So to summarize what happens in the first 30 verses of surah 2, we get an introduction to what the book is, a description of who the good and bad people are, analogies to help people understand, instruction to worship, reasons for worship, challenge to deniers, 2nd description of bad people, questions how one can still deny, and then 2nd time same reasons given to worship.

This sort of logical exposition is especially apparent later on with the story of the Israelites from verse 40 to 70.

Man_of_Faith

Hello Osman,

The 14 chapters with their so-called initials carry certain weight for me personally after I realized they actually hint a perceptive reader towards the fact that Arabic (and for that sake Semitic) letters carry an innate meaning and the one composing Quran was well aware of that fact while the amateurish interpreters throughout the centuries have not even been close to knowing why these mysterious letters introduce the chapters.

But if one reads and understands Quran from the viewpoint of all those amateurish interpreters they will not even gain 1% of the scripture's total wisdom but rather a Pagan religion based on hardcore worship of an image called Allah while Allah means "who such is". Also the word Allah is a cryptic, esoteric word God basically uses to refer to someone "who lives" because "they are". It is based on a root-word that is Alif-Lam-Lam which the AL article is also based on but All - ah uses the full root with a third-person suffix and means "near to a kind or near to something (in features or quality)", which means Allah means "who is such as" with the third-person being the "who". The reason for this is the symbiotic coexistence in God that we are supposed to find and it should be understood in conjunction with the mysterious Messianic saying "I am in the Father and the Father in me" which basically teaches the same thing as what God spoke to Moses about "I am who am I" (see below). People seem perplexed to what this expression means and I am saying it out loud in text form here, but it is up to you to be able to accept it.

For those willing to accept it, that stems from the narrative where Moses (Musa) gets in contact with God and God says "I am who am I". Allah is obviously the third-person version of this. That was a few thousand years ago and obviously ignorant wannabe interpreters have twisted its implication.

There is nothing such as a god that is supposed to be pleased through Pagan means of satisfaction of a huge ego larger than the biggest mountain on Earth. The God that exists is a symbiotic phenomenon in absolute Oneness and the wise one finds a place under Its umbrella (I am talking in parables oftentimes). The fool thinks that there is an image to worship and that everything has to do with believing while it is rather a matter of realization.

Be safe
Amenuel

TheUnseenLight

You guys are making this harder then it actually is, there is in no way of convincing anyone the "Quran is Divine".

Indeed, , you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the guided.

These "miracles" are completely objective to whether someone believes or disbelieves due to witnessing them. We see this clearly with the miracle that Musa demonstrated to the Children of Israel, parting the sea (personally my opinion, most amazing miracle in my book), and they STILL did not believe.

Tribe of Israel! Remember the blessing I conferred on you and that I preferred you over all other beings. (247)

Remember when We rescued you from the people of Pharaoh. They were inflicting an evil punishment on you-slaughtering your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a terrible trial for you from your Lord. (249)

And when We parted the sea for you and rescued you, and drowned the people of Pharaoh while you watched. (250)

Musa brought you the Clear Signs; then, after he left, you adopted the Calf and were wrongdoers. Remember when We made a covenant with you and lifted up the Mount above your heads "Take hold vigorously of what We have given you and listen." They said, "We hear and disobey." They were made to drink the Calf into their hearts because of their disbelief. Say, "If you are believers, what an evil thing your faith has made you do." (292-93)

On the metaphysical level, we are only dependent on God making us believe or not. Therefore, our proof is that He caused us to believe that His scripture is divine. Therefore if we can say that "miracles" in itself is what convinces us, we are associating them to the One, God.

Glory be to God, the Controller of of ALL things!

hawk99

So, my question now is - On what authority do we have
that the Quran is divine and sent from the ruler of the universe and therefore
serves as the basis and framework for what we should follow?

Peace Osman

Who is the "we"? confused

God bless you

fye

.....
i think it's good to believe in the quran because once again it's full of "miracles" (unexplained or investigated events and occurances)

you should believe in the quran because it's true and teaches wisdom, like a physic book (which it is) and like a science book (which it is) and like a psychology book (which it is)

i have a question for you osman, i'm glad you came to free-minds your lighting up the place lots of good post , but here's a question

what is a miracle?

and another question

what is divine (being of a diety)?

give me an answer based on your own understanding of a miracle i think miracles are just unexplained science like the creation of earth or the dead returning to life, even the soul is affected by chemicals so what is a miracle and what is or is not divine (of a diety)?

sorry to post a question under a question post

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace everyone,

If there are few or none contradictions in the Quran, then this might prove that the Quran is divine.

Quran 482 Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it were from any other than God they would have found many contradictions in it.

Personally, I have found no contradictions in the Quran.

Has anyone found many contradictions in the Quran?

Let me hear your thoughts.

hicham9

The Author of the 'Qurn' doesn't use synonyms (throughout the text)!
Adamites cannot help but do when communicating (particularly in writing).

This is but one droplet ...
within an ocean of signs.

Man_of_Faith

Peace everyone,

If there are few or none contradictions in the Quran, then this might prove that the Quran is divine.

Quran 482 Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it were from any other than God they would have found many contradictions in it.

Personally, I have found no contradictions in the Quran.

Has anyone found many contradictions in the Quran?

Let me hear your thoughts.

The whole traditional interpretation of Quran is a contradiction in itself ;D

Invalid777

The whole traditional interpretation of Quran is a contradiction in itself ;D

Like the interpretation were you are told to beat your wife or have a sex slave. Today's translations of the Quran is heavily influenced by hadith books. Hadith followers have translated the Quran with the intention of trying to fit the Quran into the hadith book collection. The Arabic language is also heavily influenced by them.

Man_of_Faith

Like the interpretation were you are told to beat your wife or have a sex slave. Today's translations of the Quran is heavily influenced by hadith books. Hadith followers have translated the Quran with the intention of trying to fit the Quran into the hadith book collection. The Arabic language is also heavily influenced by them.

Bold and underlined That is still an understatement. ;D

But I agree yes

Be safe
Amenuel

zayd

Just finished counting "yawm" myself to satisfy my curiosity. If there are any mistakes, please point them out.

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=ywm

The triliteral root y ww mm ( &#1605 occurs 405 times in the Quran as the nominal yawm (&#1605.

365 singular

3 dual
27 plural
10 not counted (e.g. yawmikum)
= 405 total

Also not counted yawma-idhin
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3Ayawoma}i*

SINGULAR x 365

14
28
248
262
285
2113
2123
2126
2174
2177
2212
2228
2232
2249
2254
2259
2259
2264
2281
39
325
330
355
377
3106
3114
3155
3161
3166
3180
3185
3194
438
439
459
487
4109
4136
4141
4159
4162
53
53
55
514
536
564
569
5109
5119
612
615
622
673
673
693
6128
6141
6158
714
732
751
753
759
7163
7163
7167
7172
841
841
848
93
918
919
925
929
935
936
944
945
977
999
9108
1015
1028
1045
1060
1092
1093
113
118
1126
1143
1160
1177
1184
1198
1199
11103
11103
11105
1254
1292
1418
1431
1441
1442
1444
1448
1535
1536
1538
1625
1627
1627
1663
1680
1680
1684
1689
1692
16111
16124
1713
1714
1752
1758
1762
1771
1797
1819
1819
1847
1852
18105
1915
1915
1915
1926
1933
1933
1933
1937
1938
1938
1939
1985
1995
2059
2064
20100
20101
20102
20104
20124
20126
2147
21104
222
229
2217
2247
2255
2269
2316
2365
23100
23111
23113
23113
242
2424
2437
2464
2514
2517
2522
2525
2526
2527
2569
2638
2682
2687
2688
26135
26155
26156
26189
26189
2783
2787
2841
2842
2861
2862
2865
2871
2872
2874
2913
2925
2936
2955
3012
3014
3043
3055
3056
3056
3133
325
3225
3229
3321
3344
3366
3430
3440
3442
3514
3654
3655
3659
3664
3665
3720
3721
3726
37144
3816
3826
3853
3878
3879
3881
3913
3915
3924
3931
3947
3960
3967
4015
4016
4016
4017
4017
4018
4027
4029
4030
4032
4033
4046
4049
4051
4052
4119
4140
4147
427
4245
4247
4339
4365
4368
4410
4416
4440
4441
4517
4526
4527
4528
4534
4535
465
4620
4620
4621
4634
4635
5020
5022
5030
5034
5041
5042
5042
5044
5112
5113
529
5213
5246
546
548
5419
5448
5529
5650
5656
5712
5712
5713
5715
586
587
5818
5822
603
606
629
649
649
649
652
667
668
6824
6839
6842
6935
704
708
7026
7043
7044
7314
7317
749
7446
751
756
767
7610
7611
7627
7712
7713
7714
7735
7738
7817
7818
7838
7839
7840
796
7935
7946
8034
8215
8217
8218
8219
835
836
8311
8334
852
869
9014
1014

DUAL x 3

2203, yawmayn
419, yawmayn
4112, yawmayn

PLURAL x 27

280, ayyaamaa
2184, ayyaamaa
2184, ayyaam
2185, ayyaam
2196, ayyaam
2203, ayyaam
324, ayyaamaa
341, ayyaam
3140, al-ayyaam
589, ayyaam
754, ayyaam
103, ayyaam
10102, ayyaam
117, ayyaam
1165, ayyaam
145, bi-ayyaam
2228, ayyaam
2559, ayyaam
324, ayyaam
3418, ayyaamaa
4110, ayyaam
4116, ayyaam
4514, ayyaam
5038, ayyaam
574, ayyaam
697, ayyaam
6924, al-ayyaam

NOT COUNTED x 10

6130, yawmikum
751, yawmihim
21103, yawmukum
3214, yawmikum
3971, yawmikum
4383, yawmahum
4534, yawmikum
5160, yawmihim
5245, yawmahum
7042, yawmahum

GODsubmitter

Excellent thread!
thank you all

Osman

Peace Osman

Who is the "we"? confused

God bless you

The 'we' is, 'we' as a community of people who take the Qur'an as a perfect and divinely created text, and use this text as the foundation for our world view and philosophy/religion, whatever you call it.

hawk99

The 'we' is, 'we' as a community of people who take the Qur'an as a perfect and
divinely created text, and use this text as the foundation for our world view and
philosophy/religion, whatever you call it.

Thank you Osman, you do see "we" can mean the human race which
includes believers, kafirs, hypocrites, tyrants, agnostics, atheists etc.,
so if the question is why should believers believe that the Quran is
divine I would say that the juncture where our will and the will of the
creator intersect is the reason we believe the Quran is divinely inspired.

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him
believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared
for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call
for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds
faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to Islam;
and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted
as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement
upon those who do not believe.

May God bless you

Man_of_Faith

who take the Qur'an as a perfect and divinely created text

I do that too, but the interpretations I know are not divinely blessed... hypno

Be safe
Amenuel