THE ONLY TWO COMMUNITIES - Where do you belong?
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Hello Omeiza,
Taking your house analogy - you can be standing on the doorway and you will be neither in or outside the house?
What I am trying to say to you is that seeing things in such black and white limits our understanding of Divinity. Lumping human groups into two camps limits our understanding of humanity.
I think it is not helpful to see things in a such limited view. In between black and white there are many shades of grey.
Being faithless and not believing can also be beneficial to overall growth of that individuality. Overcoming doubts is a prelude to a better understanding of divinity. These can be positive experiences and should be looked on as positive experiences.
Regards,
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Hello Omeiza,
Taking your house analogy - you can be standing on the doorway and you will be neither in or outside the house?
What I am trying to say to you is that seeing things in such black and white limits our understanding of Divinity. Lumping human groups into two camps limits our understanding of humanity.
I think it is not helpful to see things in a such limited view. In between black and white there are many shades of grey.
Being faithless and not believing can also be beneficial to overall growth of that individuality. Overcoming doubts is a prelude to a better understanding of divinity. These can be positive experiences and should be looked on as positive experiences.
Regards,
Dear LoteTree ? My regards.
I thought this much that you will bring the idea of standing on the doorway. What if there is definition of being inside the house? A person then can either be inside the house or he is not inside.In clarity of thought, we can?t avoid seeing things in distinct ways if not we can not have any definition. When we give a definition, we intend to isolate and where we are not able to then our definition is faulty.
A human being must either decide to be in charge of his affairs and submit to none but God or he is not a believer. Compromise which could have been the in-between is not accepted in anyway. A polytheist or an indecisive person is not a monotheist. This is the pure truth.
However, as I have said, among the people in the camp of Iblis are ignorant people. We have the duty to explain issues until truth becomes clear to them. No human being can be indifferent.
No human being can live in isolation of belief. A person must have beliefs. There is absolutely no free-thinker; a person can only be vigilant of his biases.
If a person must belief, what is wrong in telling this person to belief correctly? Names do not matter but beliefs and values. A belief is either totally correct or not correct. This is a question of thought; it is not question of accommodating a person?s behaviour.
What I am simply saying is that a person should live a natural life whereby he sees things as they are and not as he would have wanted them to be or as he would be manipulated to see them. Mind can not remain barren; it is either a person cultivates it or it is taken over by weeds (cultivated by other factors)
A person is either a human being or he is not. All human beings are the same in matter of heart (potentially). Whatever I say here is applicable to all human beings.
I have not said that you are either with us or against us instead; I am saying that you are either for us or you are not with us. Of course, anyone who is not with us is either an enemy or he is potentially one.
No human being does not have at least a god and no human being is without a religion ? a person?s world-view is his religion
With best regards.
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Hello Omeiza,
you wrote
"No human being can live in isolation of belief. A person must have beliefs. There is absolutely no free-thinker; a person can only be vigilant of his biases."you wrote
"If a person must belief, what is wrong in telling this person to belief correctly? Names do not matter but beliefs and values. A belief is either totally correct or not correct. This is a question of thought; it is not question of accommodating a person?s behaviour".I like to believe that I am a free thinker and as a free thinker I don't like this kind of lumping human beings into two distinct groups. I would rather look at the whole suffering humanity in more compassionate sense. And I would rather see each individual as trying hard to make sense of this amazing but terrifying world of ours with their own God-given faculty of reason. And I would rather have each individual come to an understanding of God on their own terms, not imposed on them by someone else.
We should not be arrogant in claiming that we know the correct beliefs. It is also arrogant of us to tell someone else what the "correct" beliefs are. This kind of thinking has always led one group of individuals oppressing another (Crusades, Spanish Inquisition etc). This kind of thinking is the cause of many suffering in the world. This kind of thought processes is the thought processes of the tyrannical "Ulemas" of the past and present ages. Is it not in our best interest to rise above this kind of "tribal" view and see things in a more compassionate and unifying sense?
Perhaps we should stop dividing humanity into camps and start unifying them with compassion? Instead of seeing ?believers? and ?unbelievers?, should we not try to see each individual as struggling within himself to make "sense" of God in their life and Universe?
It is in this struggle to understand God that an individual may lose their beliefs but gain it again later or lose it again. That is why I believe that we should not make distinctions like ?believer? and ?unbeliever? because any given time we could hold either of these two positions. Therefore we should not force someone to choose either of these positions.
We need to start letting go all notions of what is the "correct" belief for others. Whatever "correct" beliefs you have, this belief should be for yourself only. Not for me and not for others. The Creator has given each individual the gift of reason to decide for him/herself his own set of "correct" beliefs. We should encourage individuals to make use of this reasoning faculty.
you wrote
"I have not said that you are either with us or against us instead; I am saying that you are either for us or you are not with us. Of course, anyone who is not with us is either an enemy or he is potentially one."This is more like the President's George Bushes "Axis of Evil" speech! ?You are either with US or With Them! Can you not see how blinkered that view is? Many innocent people around the globe are now feeling the grave consequences of this misguided view.
Seeing things in such narrow terms limits you seeing the WHOLE. The ?Truth? is infinitely more complex that you can possibly ever imagine.
Is Unbeliever a potential enemy? Surely you don't believe that do you? I know many Atheists but I never see them as potential enemy. Unbelievers are human beings too. Their ?unbelief?, do not make them any different. They are still frail and fallible as you are. If you prick them, they will still bleed; if you tickle them, they will still laugh and if you poison them, they too will die?
The world is never black and white. The world is full of colour of many shades. There is no ?believer? and ?unbeliever? rather ?belief? and ?non-belief? is a process that we go through in finding God?
We need to rise above all our prejudices Omeiza, and see this mass of suffering humanity in more a compassionate sense?just like God embraces all creation, likewise we need to cultivate a sense of unity and embrace all humanity ? believers and unbelievers?
Regards,
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Hi,
Nothing concerning a human being can be referred to as absolutely black and white, also not the submission to Allah.
It would be a strange World if we had only two types of humans, either completely ?inside? or completely ?outside?.
But this is, actually, what all religions are trying to establish, ?you are either one of us or you are one of them?.
This is Bush-type stupidity.This apple is rotten this is not, this glass is full this is not, this is hot this is not, this car is good this is not, this house is big this is not.
There are only two types of everything, including humans?
How incredibly shortsighted!There is an old saying ?You are never so good that you can not be better?.
If you can not see the gray shades, it is pitiful.
I wholeheartedly agree with LoteTree.
Best regds,
Ali Omar
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Peace be upon you all,
Either you submit or you don't, why are we looking for a place in between? Lote Tree, you have Yoda as your avatar, you don't remember when he told Luke Skywalker, "Either Do , or do not do, there IS NO TRY"?
There is no in between.
Some have mentioned that there are people who are good people but don't believe in the God. I would state that they just don't believe in some object called "God", which is the correct view, but most "religious" people have not understood that yet.
TRuth stands clear from falsehood, so how is there an in between? EVERYONE does some wrong, its a matter of outweighing the bad with the good.
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Hello Idolfree,
you wrote
"Either you submit or you don't, why are we looking for a place in between?"I can't look at the world in such narrow terms. World is not black and white. There are many shades of grey. If you can't see the shades of grey then as Ali Omar said, "it is pitiful!". This "Them" and "Us", "Believer" and "Non-believer", "Submitter" and "Non Submitter" mentality is the cause of so many suffering in this world. This kind of mentality is the mentality of a closed mind. If you can't see that "belief" and "non belief" is a process you go through in finding God then that is sad.
you wrote
"Some have mentioned that there are people who are good people but don't believe in the God. I would state that they just don't believe in some object called "God", which is the correct view, but most "religious" people have not understood that yet".No, there are people who do not believe in the concept of a Divinity altogether and yet they are still decent individuals.
you wrote
"TRuth stands clear from falsehood, so how is there an in between? EVERYONE does some wrong, its a matter of outweighing the bad with the good".But our search for Truth is never that clear and whatever Truth we find, it is always be our version of that Truth. And I would rather NOT anyone impose their version of "Truth" on me. I would prefer to find my own "Truths" because I believe that "Truth" is infinitly more complex than you could possibly ever imagine...
Thanking you for reminding of Yoda. I never thought of Yoda as a "Submitter" -)
Regards,
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And I would rather see each individual as trying hard to make sense of this amazing but terrifying world of ours with their own God-given faculty of reason. And I would rather have each individual come to an understanding of God on their own terms, not imposed on them by someone else.
This is perfectly the message of Islam. Nobody is allowed to accept what he does not understand. Both Brain and Heart are private to every individual for this purpose. Nobody would be called to account for what he could not have understood by his reasoning faculty. This is the freedom we talk about. Anyone who is like this is truly not a slave.
My dear! Forget about any preconceived ideas you have and analyze my statements objectively.
We should not be arrogant in claiming that we know the correct beliefs. It is also arrogant of us to tell someone else what the "correct" beliefs are. This kind of thinking has always led one group of individuals oppressing another (Crusades, Spanish Inquisition etc). This kind of thinking is the cause of many suffering in the world. This kind of thought processes is the thought processes of the tyrannical "Ulemas" of the past and present ages. Is it not in our best interest to rise above this kind of "tribal" view and see things in a more compassionate and unifying sense?
Again, you are making a point but not against me. Every human being is a king and must be respected as such. Privacy is in freedom of thought and decisions. ?There is no compulsion in world-view? is a statement of fact. No adult can be forced because intention is a private affair.
As kings and Queens, we are expected to see things in a rational way without allowing prejudices to blind our sight. We should be scientific in our approach to issues.
Truth is one because there is just a Universal Law. Human beings are the same and have identical Hearts from the start. Our differences are only in our bodies.
If we have accepted this basic fact and we are applying it successfully in fulfilling the desires of heart, what is wrong in advising that we apply the same to our Vertical Life (making of the desires)? Is there anything wrong in inviting human beings to justice?
Perhaps we should stop dividing humanity into camps and start unifying them with compassion? Instead of seeing ?believers? and ?unbelievers?, should we not try to see each individual as struggling within himself to make "sense" of God in their life and Universe?
It is in this struggle to understand God that an individual may lose their beliefs but gain it again later or lose it again. That is why I believe that we should not make distinctions like ?believer? and ?unbeliever? because any given time we could hold either of these two positions. Therefore we should not force someone to choose either of these positions.
It is not for us to divide or not to divide ? it is just the nature of things.
In as much as we have the freedom to think and decide ? the chances are that we all decide to do the same thing or decide to do different things. What if we chose to be different as it is today?
How many people are ready to be in charge of their cars? If only the world leaders can come together to think objectively about the world issues, you think there would be differences again? Or you think that we do not have the right to stop the greed and excesses of others; May be you will not even be here today.
Can you force everyone to love you or stop anyone from hating you? You try your best which some will appreciate and some detest. It is the nature of life. Then you have so called intimate friends and possibly enemies.
We need to start letting go all notions of what is the "correct" belief for others. Whatever "correct" beliefs you have, this belief should be for yourself only. Not for me and not for others. The Creator has given each individual the gift of reason to decide for him/herself his own set of "correct" beliefs. We should encourage individuals to make use of this reasoning faculty.
Perfect statement; we should only express our understanding and allow every individual to accept or reject. Prophets were sent to awaken people to the use of their reasoning faculty then they discuss with them. God discusses with us.
Again, we can escape the fact that in the end we are going to be divided based on our beliefs. Don?t I have the right to be attracted to the one who shares my beliefs? We do not fight those who do not fight us.
This is more like the President's George Bushes "Axis of Evil" speech! ?You are either with US or With Them! Can you not see how blinkered that view is? Many innocent people around the globe are now feeling the grave consequences of this misguided view.
Seeing things in such narrow terms limits you seeing the WHOLE. The ?Truth? is infinitely more complex that you can possibly ever imagine.
Is Unbeliever a potential enemy? Surely you don't believe that do you? I know many Atheists but I never see them as potential enemy. Unbelievers are human beings too. Their ?unbelief?, do not make them any different. They are still frail and fallible as you are. If you prick them, they will still bleed; if you tickle them, they will still laugh and if you poison them, they too will die?
The world is never black and white. The world is full of colour of many shades. There is no ?believer? and ?unbeliever? rather ?belief? and ?non-belief? is a process that we go through in finding God?
We need to rise above all our prejudices Omeiza, and see this mass of suffering humanity in more a compassionate sense?just like God embraces all creation, likewise we need to cultivate a sense of unity and embrace all humanity ? believers and unbelievers?
Regards,
Let us assume we are investigating an issue scientifically to find out the truth. Let us avoid sentiments (for the time being) and try to see the pure truth.
The world is a reality and all human beings have the same nature. There is just a single universal law. I would want you to dispute these assertions.
In this universe, a person is either totally complying with the universal law or he is not ? is this not a reality?
Human beings are at the apex of creation. Why do you think we are here (this forum) in the first place?
Nature, like digital machine, is based on ?1? and ?0? so a thing is either 1 or 0. The Unicode would invariably accommodate all characters. Remember, we are talking of clarity of thought. Our target in life is to see things distinctly. Cloudy thought is not part of pure thought.
The heart at any moment in life is either active or inactive. When the heart is active, it is either positive or negative though it may keep shifting between the two ? this is a reality that we can not avoid.
While in body human beings have individual differences, we all have identical hearts from the start. God is only concerned about our hearts.
Every human being is motivated by the heart. We do not act (consciously) until there is an urge and we do not stop to act until there is satisfaction. The heart takes us through the cycle of desire ? satisfaction.
Our desires are based on our thought which is based on our beliefs.
We did not enter into this world with any single belief. We learnt everything here. A human being is always learning whether attentively or inattentively.Today, we are adults ? instead of just trying to cope with life, we want to manage our affairs. The world is mathematical and science has already proven that to us.
If in trying to fulfill our desires, we have traveled this long scientifically and we have come to identify that truth is just one, what is wrong in applying the same to our VERTICAL LIFE?
What I am simply saying is that we become scientific in building our desires ? is this too much?
I have said that no human being is truly a free-thinker because no human being is without a belief ? is this not true?
If everybody must have a belief at any given moment of life, a person can only manage this biasness by deciding to be neutral where that is needed. That is why you hear of all these rules concerning scientific investigations.
Creatures in the world are of two categories It is either a creature is a human being or it is not. There is just no in-between except we do not have definition.
A human being is either in charge of his heart or he is not. A person who is not in charge of his heart is either making the effort to be or he is not.
A Muslim is any person who has decided and is struggling to be in charge of his heart or is in charge already. What is the in-between?
While it is possible for a person to keep on shifting between being a Muslim and leaving Islam it is not possible for a person to be partly a Muslim and partly a non-Muslim at any moment. I do acknowledge that there are sympathizers.
A person who submits to his desires can turn out to be anything tomorrow even if he is not that thing today. When I talk of a potential enemy I mean the likelihood of becoming an enemy. All it takes for a slave to behave strangely is ?instruction? and the blind heart can come up with any desire at any time or it can be manipulated.
Am I wrong for telling you to trust only such person that is in charge of his heart and has focus in his life? Every human being is selfish and therefore a potential threat except those who are JUST and are VIGILANT and DETERMINED. Is this not true? Don?t you need this basic fact in order for you to be rational in behaviour?
There are just two communities in the world ? a reality. It is either a person is serving no lord but just God or he is a slave.
A person that is not free from other lords is either aware or he is not. A person that is aware has either chosen to abandon freedom or he is yet to decide. A person who does not cultivate his mind himself will get it cultivated for him.
Say "o people of the book! Come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves lords and patrons other than God." if then they turn back say "bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God?s will)." (Q364)
So if they dispute with thee say "I have submitted my whole self to God and so have those who follow me." and say to the people of the book and to those who are unlearned "do ye (also) submit yourselves?" if they do they are in right guidance but if they turn back thy duty is to convey the message; and in God?s sight are (all) his servants. (Q320)
My best regards.
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Hello Omeiza,
With due respects, I have analysed your statements objectively. Lets recap on some of the things you have said
Quote - Omeiza wrote
"1. THE ONLY TWO COMMUNITIES - Where do you belong?"
"2. A person is either in the camp of Allah or in the other camp."
"3. It is like I built a house and I say a person is either inside the house or outside."
"4. What if there is definition of being inside the house? A person then can either be inside the house or he is not inside."These statements shows that you see the world in black and white - You are either "inside" or "outside" the house, you are either "With Us" or "With Them".
When it comes to human beings and nature of beliefs, Omeiza, you cannot view it in such restrictive terms. There are shades of grey Omeiza. There are always shades of grey in our life and our understanding and in our beliefs. Human mind is not a binary computer. It does not operate on 1 and 0's. It is intuitive and imaginative and it can rise above logic and reason to apprehend ineffable truths. It can contain two contradictory ideas at the same time, and still find a way to live with these contradictions. When you see in black and white you tend to overlook the possibilities that exists in the shades of grey. Do not be "grey-blind".
you wrote
"1. If a person must belief, what is wrong in telling this person to belief correctly?"
"2. A belief is either totally correct or not correct."Belief correctly? and "Belief" is either "totally correct" or "not correct"?
Correct according to who? This is an arrogant presumption say that you have the correct belief. How do you know you have the "correct" belief in the first place?You wrote
"A person is either a human being or he is not."I like to believe that we are all human beings, Omeiza. Our unbelief does not make us inhuman. Our "carnal" desires do not make us non-human, whether we are in charge of them or not.
You wrote quote
"I have not said that you are either with us or against us instead; I am saying that you are either for us or you are not with us. Of course, anyone who is not with us is either an enemy or he is potentially one."What is the objective truth of these statements Omeiza? Too others and me it means "Them" and "US". Why such shortsighted view? Why choose to live in this kind of division? And why do you have to see others as enemy or potential enemy just because they are not in the "Camp of Allah"?
you wrote quote
"No human being does not have at least a god and no human being is without a religion. a person?s world-view is his religion"I disagree. Your world-view may be your religion not mine. My world view is nothing to do with religion. Atheist for example does not have a God or religion. Scientists view world scientifically - no God there either.
You wrote quote
"It is not for us to divide or not to divide, it is just the nature of things"It is we who create divisions Them and Us, Inside The House or Outside etc. Why is it a nature of things? Should we not try to rise above these divisions and see humanity in a more compassionate sense? Not believing in God does not make us inhuman or an enemy...
As an individual you have chosen to see the world in Black and White.
And I respect your views though I may not agree with them...Regards,
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Peace,
I think Omeiza is talking about being righteous or being unrighteous, yes with a special style of sentences, some of them worrying, like when s/he use Arabic words, Al Islam, Allah, Kurf, Kaffir, as suggesting that just Muslims are in the right side, (Muslims the label) and when specifying who is bad, USA, (all Americans? just USA?) but s/he has said something that I think clarifies the position " It does not matter what a person calls himself but what his values are"
Maybe LoTe Tree and Omeiza are saying the same thing, just the styles are different. That's my reading of the thread. -
Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
I see the Party of the God and I see the Party of Satan, which party to the "Gray" people belong to?
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Hello Idolfree,
Party of God? Are you member of Hizbollah?
This is such an "anthromorphic" understanding of God. Peopel who can percieve the shades of grey do not limit the infinite God in this fashion. Perhaps you too see everything in such black and white that you never consider that there are many shades of grey in our life, beliefs and understanding of Truth, thats is why you use God as a prop in dividing humanity into groups.
God should help us to transcend barriers and boundaries and not enforce them...
Regards,
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Party of God? Are you member of Hizbollah?
Those are the words of God -
- And whoever allies God and His messenger and those who believe; then the party of God are the ones who will be victorious.
- Waman yatawalla Allaha warasoolahu waallatheena amanoo fa-inna hizba Allahi humu alghaliboona
The shades of gray also fall within these boundaries. You either believe in God, or not.
For those who are unsure, they better know before death overtakes them. ) -
Hi,
You may believe in God and try to follow what God prescribes, still, how do you ascertain that everything you do, is according to God?s will?
What we humans believe and what we do might be totally different.We do some good deeds and we do some bad deeds. Some ?black? and some ?white?, i.e. we, usually end up with a mix of white and black, or in other words, some shade of gray.
Show me the human being who knows what is absolutely correct, what is the absolute truth, and I will show you a liar.So, where do we belong then, do we belong where we think we do, or in the other camp, or somewhere in between camps?
This is not for us to decide; only Allah knows. Therefore, don?t go there.Live your life the way you think is right, try to see if what you do is good or bad for everything and everyone, or anything and anyone.
If it seems to be good, then it is according to God?s will, if not, it is against God?s will, as God?s will is what is best for the Universe and everything in it.Best regds
Ali Omar
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Peace,
I think Omeiza is talking about being righteous or being unrighteous, yes with a special style of sentences, some of them worrying, like when s/he use Arabic words, Al Islam, Allah, Kurf, Kaffir, as suggesting that just Muslims are in the right side, (Muslims the label) and when specifying who is bad, USA, (all Americans? just USA?) but s/he has said something that I think clarifies the position " It does not matter what a person calls himself but what his values are"
Maybe LoTe Tree and Omeiza are saying the same thing, just the styles are different. That's my reading of the thread.Peace Elena.
Thanks for the beautiful clarification.
Peace
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Hello Zenje,
You wrote
"Those are the words of God -
- And whoever allies God and His messenger and those who believe; then the party of God are the ones who will be victorious.
All scripture came through, written and memorised by flawed human beings. Divine ?hand? did not write anything down on paper or stone. Therefore how can you be so certain that these are the actual words of God?
The meeting between Humanity and the Divine is never a "logical" encounter because God is beyond Language and Reason. Therefore, Scripture can only be a "rationalised" interpretation of one individual's experience of his meeting with Divinity. So how can you be sure that these ?interpretations? are the very words of God?
When it comes to God and religion there are no Absolute Truths and people should not take it as such because God is not an objective fact rather it is an subjective experience of the individual. People who take the Scripture to be the Absolute Truth limit and deny God's infinite possibility of revelations to individuals. They also tend to see the world in ?Black and White?. They only see "The Righteous" and "The Damned", "The Believer" and "The Unbeliever", ?In The Camp of Allah? or ?In The Camp of Satan?. This kind of thinking is the cause of so much suffering in this world. This kind of thought processes led to the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition and the rise of the tyrannical rule of the ?Ulemas?. This kind of belief has been used to deny the rights and dignity of individuals and also to commit horrible crimes against humanity throughout history.
We need to develop more intuitive and imaginative understanding of God, Zenje, an understanding of God that allows us to rise above all our man-made divisions and boundaries. We should never use God to divide humanity nor should we use Satan to make excuses for our own human fallibility and frailty. We should take charge of our own life and take responsibility for our own actions. Scripture should only be used as "guide" to understanding Divinity. It should never be taken as Absolute Truth. Every Scripture is A TRUTH and not the WHOLE truth.
Taking scripture as Absolute Truth also denies the possibility of us developing spiritually as individuals, and limits our understanding of the infinite God. Human history tells us that the belief in an Absolute Truth can easily be used to reinforce our innate prejudices, instead of transcending them with compassion and understanding.
You wrote
?For those who are unsure, they better know before death overtakes them."
Why? What would happen if you died unsure about God? Eternal Damnation and Hell Fire? If that is the case then I say to you that you are mistaken. Without a personal revelation, it would be very unjust of God to punish you for your indecision in your beliefs.
Therefore it does not matter whether you live your life with a mixture of ?belief? and ?non-belief?, neither will it make any difference whether you died believing in a God or not. What is important that you tried to live a righteous life and that you tried your best to grasp some understanding of the infinite God that created you. God has given each individual the gift of reason to discover the creator within himself. All we can do is to encourage individuals to make use of this reasoning faculty in their life and in their search for God?
Regards,
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Peace Lote Tree,
All scripture came through, written and memorised by flawed human beings. Divine ?hand? did not write anything down on paper or stone. Therefore how can you be so certain that these are the actual words of God?
I took it for granted you believed the quran is God's words... for that I apologize. Therefore, I believe this nullifies the earlier discussion (atleast between you and me), and would create a whole different subject. If you wish, you may start another thread on that issue.
Peace be with you )
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Hello Zenje,
you wrote
"I took it for granted you believed the quran is God's words... for that I apologize. Therefore, I believe this nullifies the earlier discussion (atleast between you and me), and would create a whole different subject. If you wish, you may start another thread on that issue"I thought you would have given your views on nature of Absolute
Truths -) but there is no need for appologies -)It is my view that we should encourage indivduals not to take anything for granted even scripture... perhaps this can be debated on a separate thread as you suggested....
Regard,