THE ONLY TWO COMMUNITIES - Where do you belong?
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Hello Omeiza,
With due respects, I have analysed your statements objectively. Lets recap on some of the things you have said
Quote - Omeiza wrote
"1. THE ONLY TWO COMMUNITIES - Where do you belong?"
"2. A person is either in the camp of Allah or in the other camp."
"3. It is like I built a house and I say a person is either inside the house or outside."
"4. What if there is definition of being inside the house? A person then can either be inside the house or he is not inside."These statements shows that you see the world in black and white - You are either "inside" or "outside" the house, you are either "With Us" or "With Them".
When it comes to human beings and nature of beliefs, Omeiza, you cannot view it in such restrictive terms. There are shades of grey Omeiza. There are always shades of grey in our life and our understanding and in our beliefs. Human mind is not a binary computer. It does not operate on 1 and 0's. It is intuitive and imaginative and it can rise above logic and reason to apprehend ineffable truths. It can contain two contradictory ideas at the same time, and still find a way to live with these contradictions. When you see in black and white you tend to overlook the possibilities that exists in the shades of grey. Do not be "grey-blind".
you wrote
"1. If a person must belief, what is wrong in telling this person to belief correctly?"
"2. A belief is either totally correct or not correct."Belief correctly? and "Belief" is either "totally correct" or "not correct"?
Correct according to who? This is an arrogant presumption say that you have the correct belief. How do you know you have the "correct" belief in the first place?You wrote
"A person is either a human being or he is not."I like to believe that we are all human beings, Omeiza. Our unbelief does not make us inhuman. Our "carnal" desires do not make us non-human, whether we are in charge of them or not.
You wrote quote
"I have not said that you are either with us or against us instead; I am saying that you are either for us or you are not with us. Of course, anyone who is not with us is either an enemy or he is potentially one."What is the objective truth of these statements Omeiza? Too others and me it means "Them" and "US". Why such shortsighted view? Why choose to live in this kind of division? And why do you have to see others as enemy or potential enemy just because they are not in the "Camp of Allah"?
you wrote quote
"No human being does not have at least a god and no human being is without a religion. a person?s world-view is his religion"I disagree. Your world-view may be your religion not mine. My world view is nothing to do with religion. Atheist for example does not have a God or religion. Scientists view world scientifically - no God there either.
You wrote quote
"It is not for us to divide or not to divide, it is just the nature of things"It is we who create divisions Them and Us, Inside The House or Outside etc. Why is it a nature of things? Should we not try to rise above these divisions and see humanity in a more compassionate sense? Not believing in God does not make us inhuman or an enemy...
As an individual you have chosen to see the world in Black and White.
And I respect your views though I may not agree with them...Regards,
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Peace,
I think Omeiza is talking about being righteous or being unrighteous, yes with a special style of sentences, some of them worrying, like when s/he use Arabic words, Al Islam, Allah, Kurf, Kaffir, as suggesting that just Muslims are in the right side, (Muslims the label) and when specifying who is bad, USA, (all Americans? just USA?) but s/he has said something that I think clarifies the position " It does not matter what a person calls himself but what his values are"
Maybe LoTe Tree and Omeiza are saying the same thing, just the styles are different. That's my reading of the thread. -
Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
I see the Party of the God and I see the Party of Satan, which party to the "Gray" people belong to?
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Hello Idolfree,
Party of God? Are you member of Hizbollah?
This is such an "anthromorphic" understanding of God. Peopel who can percieve the shades of grey do not limit the infinite God in this fashion. Perhaps you too see everything in such black and white that you never consider that there are many shades of grey in our life, beliefs and understanding of Truth, thats is why you use God as a prop in dividing humanity into groups.
God should help us to transcend barriers and boundaries and not enforce them...
Regards,
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Party of God? Are you member of Hizbollah?
Those are the words of God -
- And whoever allies God and His messenger and those who believe; then the party of God are the ones who will be victorious.
- Waman yatawalla Allaha warasoolahu waallatheena amanoo fa-inna hizba Allahi humu alghaliboona
The shades of gray also fall within these boundaries. You either believe in God, or not.
For those who are unsure, they better know before death overtakes them. ) -
Hi,
You may believe in God and try to follow what God prescribes, still, how do you ascertain that everything you do, is according to God?s will?
What we humans believe and what we do might be totally different.We do some good deeds and we do some bad deeds. Some ?black? and some ?white?, i.e. we, usually end up with a mix of white and black, or in other words, some shade of gray.
Show me the human being who knows what is absolutely correct, what is the absolute truth, and I will show you a liar.So, where do we belong then, do we belong where we think we do, or in the other camp, or somewhere in between camps?
This is not for us to decide; only Allah knows. Therefore, don?t go there.Live your life the way you think is right, try to see if what you do is good or bad for everything and everyone, or anything and anyone.
If it seems to be good, then it is according to God?s will, if not, it is against God?s will, as God?s will is what is best for the Universe and everything in it.Best regds
Ali Omar
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Peace,
I think Omeiza is talking about being righteous or being unrighteous, yes with a special style of sentences, some of them worrying, like when s/he use Arabic words, Al Islam, Allah, Kurf, Kaffir, as suggesting that just Muslims are in the right side, (Muslims the label) and when specifying who is bad, USA, (all Americans? just USA?) but s/he has said something that I think clarifies the position " It does not matter what a person calls himself but what his values are"
Maybe LoTe Tree and Omeiza are saying the same thing, just the styles are different. That's my reading of the thread.Peace Elena.
Thanks for the beautiful clarification.
Peace
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Hello Zenje,
You wrote
"Those are the words of God -
- And whoever allies God and His messenger and those who believe; then the party of God are the ones who will be victorious.
All scripture came through, written and memorised by flawed human beings. Divine ?hand? did not write anything down on paper or stone. Therefore how can you be so certain that these are the actual words of God?
The meeting between Humanity and the Divine is never a "logical" encounter because God is beyond Language and Reason. Therefore, Scripture can only be a "rationalised" interpretation of one individual's experience of his meeting with Divinity. So how can you be sure that these ?interpretations? are the very words of God?
When it comes to God and religion there are no Absolute Truths and people should not take it as such because God is not an objective fact rather it is an subjective experience of the individual. People who take the Scripture to be the Absolute Truth limit and deny God's infinite possibility of revelations to individuals. They also tend to see the world in ?Black and White?. They only see "The Righteous" and "The Damned", "The Believer" and "The Unbeliever", ?In The Camp of Allah? or ?In The Camp of Satan?. This kind of thinking is the cause of so much suffering in this world. This kind of thought processes led to the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition and the rise of the tyrannical rule of the ?Ulemas?. This kind of belief has been used to deny the rights and dignity of individuals and also to commit horrible crimes against humanity throughout history.
We need to develop more intuitive and imaginative understanding of God, Zenje, an understanding of God that allows us to rise above all our man-made divisions and boundaries. We should never use God to divide humanity nor should we use Satan to make excuses for our own human fallibility and frailty. We should take charge of our own life and take responsibility for our own actions. Scripture should only be used as "guide" to understanding Divinity. It should never be taken as Absolute Truth. Every Scripture is A TRUTH and not the WHOLE truth.
Taking scripture as Absolute Truth also denies the possibility of us developing spiritually as individuals, and limits our understanding of the infinite God. Human history tells us that the belief in an Absolute Truth can easily be used to reinforce our innate prejudices, instead of transcending them with compassion and understanding.
You wrote
?For those who are unsure, they better know before death overtakes them."
Why? What would happen if you died unsure about God? Eternal Damnation and Hell Fire? If that is the case then I say to you that you are mistaken. Without a personal revelation, it would be very unjust of God to punish you for your indecision in your beliefs.
Therefore it does not matter whether you live your life with a mixture of ?belief? and ?non-belief?, neither will it make any difference whether you died believing in a God or not. What is important that you tried to live a righteous life and that you tried your best to grasp some understanding of the infinite God that created you. God has given each individual the gift of reason to discover the creator within himself. All we can do is to encourage individuals to make use of this reasoning faculty in their life and in their search for God?
Regards,
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Peace Lote Tree,
All scripture came through, written and memorised by flawed human beings. Divine ?hand? did not write anything down on paper or stone. Therefore how can you be so certain that these are the actual words of God?
I took it for granted you believed the quran is God's words... for that I apologize. Therefore, I believe this nullifies the earlier discussion (atleast between you and me), and would create a whole different subject. If you wish, you may start another thread on that issue.
Peace be with you )
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Hello Zenje,
you wrote
"I took it for granted you believed the quran is God's words... for that I apologize. Therefore, I believe this nullifies the earlier discussion (atleast between you and me), and would create a whole different subject. If you wish, you may start another thread on that issue"I thought you would have given your views on nature of Absolute
Truths -) but there is no need for appologies -)It is my view that we should encourage indivduals not to take anything for granted even scripture... perhaps this can be debated on a separate thread as you suggested....
Regard,