Is Qur'an Alone the Last Step Before Leaving Islam Completely?
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It's interesting how you say to me "get over yourself" whilst at the same time claiming I feel threatened by your posts and the mods are out to get you and you have "inadvertently challenged one of the fundamental ideological positions of Free-Minds" etc. You have done none of these things.
Yes I have. Your problem is you can't stand the fact that Muslim countries follow the Quran a lot closer than you're willing to admit - and I find it very telling the way you've painted me as someone who thinks like a 'traditional' simply for taking the verse around cutting of hands literally and stating it's no wonder Muslims are harsh towards gays due to what is stated in the Quran.
It's really simple what happened
I said, quote "Many western countries have the basic Quran principles in place...".
TH mentioned the same thing, quote "...Quranic principles...".
You even quoted TH and said "Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles" then went onto discuss "Quran and Torah"!Let's check that quote then
I think many western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) are closer to Quranic principles than eastern countries. But I also acknowledge the fact that there are a few eastern countries that are very close to Quranic principles (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan). The few eastern countries (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan) that are close to Quranic principles, are probably as close to Quranic principles as the western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) that are close to Quranic principles.
I disagreed with this quote and stated that Muslim countries still follow Quranic principles in certain areas closer than the West - are you going to disagree with me on this one?
You replied primarily discussing Quran, not clarifying part of your claims were based on Torah not Quran.
You've just contradicted yourself here, who isn't trying exactly and who is building straw men now?
I then replied putting you firmly on the spot, pointing out the specific claims.
Yes and I gave you the verse with chopping off the hands as well as God abhoring homosexuality and destroying the sexual deviants.
I will admit my brief mentioning of covering heads was referring to Christianity rather than the Quran, but the fact still remains that in Muslim countries people remain modest as per God's commands vis a vis the West.
Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles
You take a tiny part of what I say, you run with it, you insult me and you ignore the main points of what is said because you know you can't prove it otherwise.
Listen to me carefully Wakas - the West does not follow Quranic principles in the Quran regarding Homosexuality and Women's clothing closer than most Muslim countries - will you please stop avoiding this obvious and respond???
And yes, I will re-iterate this - you reserve a special type of negative behaviour for anyone who challenges the Free Minds position, in your eyes that is anyone who observes a 'traditional' muslim interpretation of anything. Don't try and wriggle out of the act that you've made personal attacks against me. Even if you're convinced you're in the right, why wouldn't you give the other person in the debate the benefit of the doubt instead of labelling them as being deceitful?
I'm not going to disagree with you that the Quran does not explicitly mention covering heads, I was referring to Christianity on that one - but again you're avoiding the point - is the West closer to Muslim countries on this one?
severe punishment for insulting parents
This is your clearest error by far. The Quran verse you reference showed nothing of the sort. To be honest, it seems you gave up on arguing this one. One would have thought you would have honestly admitted your mistake.I posted the wrong verse and added the correct one in the post right after, why don't you have a look at that? It's in the Torah isn't it? Am I lying again Wakas? There must be something seriously wrong with me not to be able to 'correct' myself towards your position.
In case it is not obvious by now, TH and I were discussing Quran principles, not Torah, not Muslims, not Islam.
And the topic I started was something else - so what's your point here exactly? You went off topic just like everyone else - did I commit a thought crime by going off topic in a way you didn't like oh great and mighty Wakas? Give me a break - this is a complete joke - the way you've blown this thing out of proportion betrays your true feelings.
And that is just one half of what his beef is. The other has to do with going around saying 'it's just all so wrong, I feel it y'all' regarding the state of the forum and how it's helping people over to the dark side boatloads at a time.
Oh my goodness, talk about jumping to conclusions!!! When did I say ANYTHING of the sort? Why do you guys get so defensive all the time? I can't even ask reasonable questions without you getting angsty.
And I'm the one getting accused of creating straw men! rotfl yeahIf that was the case, then there would be no dissent but obviously when one is in the throes of passionate axe grinding, facts don't matter.
The axe that's being grinded is the immense issues you guys have with anything you consider 'traditional Islam' and the paraonoia is that anything that you consider challenges your beliefs is some kind of 'traditional conspiracy'.
With regards to megalomania, I don't think it's anything personal against me, I think it's anyone who may be perceived as espousing a traditional viewpoint.
I honestly thought these threads I was creating would have me seen as an Atheist rather than a traditional but that just goes to show how things are perceived here.
Here's a hint, we could ban you in a minute and delete all your posts if we were evil and if you were actually a threat and if we really wanted to shut you up. As happens in other places. The next step now that the passive aggressive mask is off is to up the ante and scream 'help i'm being oppressed by the stakeholders of the forum' in every post dealing with how dead and awful the forum is, how everyone is leaving for the arms of darkness and that the ones in the know are threatened by your amazing powers of deduction and observation but still let you opine...somehow, magically, mysteriously.
Threaten us right or go home.
Seriously, guys calm down. It's clear that I've hit a nerve to warrant these kinds of personal attacks in the last couple of days. Who said you were evil? I never even thought that about either of you. I have told you why I believe you react the way you do. Can't you see the way you've both pincered against me? Wow
Maybe I've answered a few of my own questions today
Please excuse me now while I run off to inform my Sunni friends on wahabiforever.net that stage one of operation bring down Free-Minds is complete - MWAHAHAAAH!
I'll get you Quran aloners! And your little dog too! > > >
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Oh my goodness, talk about jumping to conclusions!!! When did I say ANYTHING of the sort? Why do you guys get so defensive all the time? I can't even ask reasonable questions without you getting angsty.
And I'm the one getting accused of creating straw men!
Yes, you've never mentioned or even implied anything of the sort even repeatedly. We're all just crazy. Cool. And well done?The axe that's being grinded is the immense issues you guys have with anything you consider 'traditional Islam' and the paraonoia is that anything that you consider challenges your beliefs is some kind of 'traditional conspiracy'.
With regards to megalomania, I don't think it's anything personal against me, I think it's anyone who may be perceived as espousing a traditional viewpoint.
I honestly thought these threads I was creating would have me seen as an Atheist rather than a traditional but that just goes to show how things are perceived here.
Who are 'you guys'? I'm pretty live and let live myself. There's only one bringing the paranoia, and it's pretty evident to most if not you. All they have to do is read the thread. Atheist? Traditional? Look all I wanted was to discuss frickin' communes and you didn't even give me that. That's considered excessive cruelty.Seriously, guys calm down. It's clear that I've hit a nerve to warrant these kinds of personal attacks in the last couple of days. Who said you were evil? I never even thought that about either of you. I have told you why I believe you react the way you do. Can't you see the way you've both pincered against me? Wow
Lol calm down? Personal attacks? It's...astounding that you can play it like this when everything is kinda written down...? Did I say you said I was evil? Wakas I'm not sure of though, he may be with his whole food plant based diet. I don't like repeating myself but for your benefit...why can't you just discuss stuff as users, it's pretty common for two mods to respond to one thread, particularly when it's regarding the forum, it's happened countless times in the past without people losing their heads thinking they're out to get someone. So, yeah, really, chill with the hysterics? Kk?Maybe I've answered a few of my own questions today
I've always wanted to do that.Please excuse me now while I run off to inform my Sunni friends on wahabiforever.net that stage one of operation bring down Free-Minds is complete - MWAHAHAAAH!
I'll get you Quran aloners! And your little dog too! >D >D >D
I'm a cat person. I'll even help you get that dog. -
Yes, you've never mentioned or even implied anything of the sort even repeatedly. We're all just crazy. Cool. And well done?Who are 'you guys'? I'm pretty live and let live myself. There's only one bringing the paranoia, and it's pretty evident to most if not you. All they have to do is read the thread. Atheist? Traditional? Look all I wanted was to discuss frickin' communes and you didn't even give me that. That's considered excessive cruelty.Lol calm down? Personal attacks? It's...astounding that you can play it like this when everything is kinda written down...? Did I say you said I was evil? Wakas I'm not sure of though, he may be with his whole food plant based diet. I don't like repeating myself but for your benefit...why can't you just discuss stuff as users, it's pretty common for two mods to respond to one thread, particularly when it's regarding the forum, it's happened countless times in the past without people losing their heads thinking they're out to get someone. So, yeah, really, chill with the hysterics? Kk? I've always wanted to do that.I'm a cat person. I'll even help you get that dog.
Yes I am indeed a cruel and ruthless individual for not letting you discuss communes )
Stop playing dumb, 'traditional' has been slapped about at the drop of a hat.
And you guys (mods) are anything but 'live and let live' when it comes to most Muslims in the world.
You've behaved much worse than Wakas savage_carrot, and you jump to conlcusions all the time it's ridiculous. Take this thread for instance, do you want me to dredge up every time you've made faulty inferences?
You like cats over dogs eh? Sounds like a 'traditional' to me - burn her! Witch! Witch! ;D
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And the venom just keeps dripping. 'Wow'.
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Darn, it looks like my conspiracy to spread traditional muslim lies around this forum has failed '(...looks like it's time for phase 2
https//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b7/cb/db/b7cbdba9c123da7f9baab6fda2ab9f58.gif
FLY MY PRETTIES! FLY! AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > >
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Osman,I cannot rad the whole lot of nonasnwers inthis exchange, but I am sure of something, either you do not know the Qur'an nor are interested at all in what it does say and what it does not say or you are getting some satisfaction from utting it down nd disfigure it.
A pity.
Salaam
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Osman,I cannot rad the whole lot of nonasnwers inthis exchange, but I am sure of something, either you do not know the Qur'an nor are interested at all in what it does say and what it does not say or you are getting some satisfaction from utting it down nd disfigure it.
So I'm 'putting it down' by taking the verse around chopping hands of thieves literally and saying the Qur'an detests homosexuality?
http//30.media.tumblr.com/e2f57c656019882327212b53b32cb612/tumblr_musdmpZ5Lz1spo3yuo1_500.gif
Of course - I must be the unreasonable one here in the cult of Free-Minds.
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Perhaps this thread needs a bomb to be even more festive!!
http//emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-monkey/crazy-monkey-emoticon-109.gif?1292792408
Bombs? You sound like a traditional JavaLatte!
I suppose we better get back on topic - someome messaged me a few weeks back telling me about the various places some former members had gone to - I understand one does have a Quran alone facebook group that they maintain.
Obviously not everyone is going to make a dramatic one-time exit and many will just trail off but are there any farewell threads around where we can exactly what people have said their reasons are?
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I don't think there is such a hread. Usually when peole go away and say something do so individually aand the reason they give ar also very diverse.
On the other hand it is normal that people come and go. Tis like a village market place. People go there to exchange. Sometimes they find some times do not, or partially, so they water somewhere elso or they do it at home.
And then sometimes, new markets open somewhere else...
Life is movement and nothing is forever not even the bad things.
Salaam
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Salam,
The answer to your question is that it might be a potential path but it is not a conclusive last step.
perhaps the problem is in a misguided belief that by throwing away the Hadith we will all be headed on the same path in the same direction and at the same point in the road and hence be some enlightened group
Perhaps you are right, where did you come up with such a belief?
Discord has existed for a very long time, ever read debates between scholars of the same faith/creed/jurisprudence? Confusion is natural until you are enlightened with certainty, facts and knowledge.
I know many people who used to frequent this forum are now probably no longer Muslims by their own considerations
I guess it's difficult to digest that many people you know are "probably" not muslim but funnily our lives are not in a bubble of one or a few forums. it's true our life experiences help shape our understandings of the world but it is by no means a fact that if some have come across a certain path that it would potentially lead to a last step of leaving Islam.
I'm confident and comfortable in my ways/belief because of what I have read, researched and discovered.
Do you feel scared you might leave Islam because of your beliefs in Quran?
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Peace SarahY
The answer to your question is that it might be a potential path but it is not a conclusive last step.
Yes, absolutely.
I guess it's difficult to digest that many people you know are "probably" not muslim but funnily our lives are not in a bubble of one or a few forums. it's true our life experiences help shape our understandings of the world but it is by no means a fact that if some have come across a certain path that it would potentially lead to a last step of leaving Islam.
The reason I'm mentioning this is because I left just after there was a crisis in the forum, there was an Egyptian guy called Ahmed Bahgat who created a rival website and he had a gang who left and started their own forum and I remember there were a few, particularly Western converts, who were having massive issues which started by being caught between a debate going on with the Mods and the aforementioned gang. So unfortunately there weren't any resolutions at that time and a lot of divisions.
A couple longstanders here have been overly defensive and have come to the conclusion I'm trying to find holes or something, the point of my post was to investigate root causes of people leaving and see if these can be addressed in order for Free-Minds to reach a critical mass and acheive the thing many people here have been posting about - that being creating a true Qur'an alone movement that doesn't just exist in cyberspace.
Do you feel scared you might leave Islam because of your beliefs in Quran?
Now THAT is a very good question indeed )
I wouldn't say scared, as I mentioned to the original poster in the "Can some one help me out of this extreme frustration" thread, so long as you're confident with yourself the reasons why you've gone about something and you know deep down you're at a position for a good reason then I don't think fear should play a part.
I'm quite secular anyway and borderline agnostic to begin with so the 'actively taking part in religion' criteria doesn't apply to me so the fear aspect wouldn't be present.
I don't think anyone who leaves Islam is scared about it on a spiritual level. There may be a situation of fear and doubt just before the phase of leaving when the thoughts of hell and damnation loom, but if they're on the road to apostasy and they read something or do some research to make them come to the final conclusion of 'It nothing but tales of the ancients', this will be the final straw that pushes them in their decision and by that point they will no longer be believing in hell etc and the fear aspect will go.
I definitely think that in many cases with people who have taken an active interest in religion, there will be a characteristic 'crisis' phase which is followed either by leaving the belief system that they find irreconcilable behind or go back into that belief system once their issue(s) has been resolved.
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Javalette, do you mean the thread needs fireworks?
They have been going on for a week where I am! Fireworks that is.
Osman, ( I will go back on topic) . I never felt entering or leaving any religion or sect or... All my life.
I have always felt going on a journey through dabbling with Christianity, looking into traditional Islam and so forth.
To me, I am simply travelling towards wherever I should be. I feel the constant factor in all this is GOD . I have always felt a pull towards my creator. It is like following a sent/trail...etc.
Funny,but my enthusiasm now is fiercer and stronger than it has ever been. I am eager and more than willing to carry on this crazy routine of constantly searching ,studying,looking,... Where do I get the energy from,, I keep asking myself,but I do want to keep on going and going. Strange!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Certainly it is the first step to leaving the Islam that most of the world know as Islam...and the first step to finding the Islam that only a handful of people know about.
Peace. -
Javalette, do you mean the thread needs fireworks?
They have been going on for a week where I am! Fireworks that is.
Then you must be in the UK too?
Osman, ( I will go back on topic) . I never felt entering or leaving any religion or sect or... All my life.
I have always felt going on a journey through dabbling with Christianity, looking into traditional Islam and so forth.
To me, I am simply travelling towards wherever I should be. I feel the constant factor in all this is GOD . I have always felt a pull towards my creator. It is like following a sent/trail...etc.
Funny,but my enthusiasm now is fiercer and stronger than it has ever been. I am eager and more than willing to carry on this crazy routine of constantly searching ,studying,looking,... Where do I get the energy from,, I keep asking myself,but I do want to keep on going and going. Strange!
GOD bless you.
Peace.And I think that's why for people who see it like yourself will never be afraid so long as you're confident all the choices you make are for the right reasons. As someone said in the thread earlier, we're all at different stages of our journey.
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Bombs? You sound like a traditional JavaLatte!
Well, I don't want to follow sunna, but I also don't want to become secular.
I want to follow the path that ALLAH taught/teaches me. )
Javalette, do you mean the thread needs fireworks?
Hehe, I think fireworks would be nice to replace that bomb! P
http//emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-monkey/crazy-monkey-emoticon-112.gif?1292792408
They have been going on for a week where I am! Fireworks that is.
Whether your place is celebrating something?
Peace.