No God Exists: Why Should I Be Good to humans?
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Peace everyone,
William Buhlman, in this video and the videos I referenced in the above post, was an agnostic and atheist but after he started astral projecting he became a spiritual person. He even mentions Quran in the following video! He has been astral projecting for more than 42 years. He also talks about the silver cord (in his case it comes out of back of neck) and how to astral project. He says that he sees even animals astral projecting during their sleep! Astral projection primer
https//m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IDouR9Uvg
His website
http//www.astralinfo.org/
I forgot to mention that in addition to traveling in space and time, you can also travel to other dimensions during astral projection and can visit any dimensional reality you want out of the infinite number of multidimensional realities that exist. For example you will be able to visit "heaven" or "hell" and see what it looks like!
You will see the true reality of all existence with your own "eyes" and go from a state of "belief/trust/faith" to "those given the knowledge". You will understand exactly how and where Muhammad traveled to when he traveled from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa, when you learn astral projection yourself. You will realize that you are in reality a spiritual being in a temporary physical body illusion, rather than a purely physical being, and that you are in reality connected with all existence.
Peace
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I would like to see a world without God. Don't be surprised. Its just a case study of whether we can control the animals we have within us without religions/deen.
Okay, for a second let's say God doesn't exist. Belief has gone down the drain and all religions are banned. There is nothing called afterlife. There is no reason to believe in anything called karma because just like God it cant be measured in some lab. We can do whatever we like as long as no law is broken! You know in that case, government can punish us. Keeping this in mind and the idea that I am an atheist (just pretending), tell me why should I be good to certain people who provide nothing useful to me?
the specif group of people not useful to me in economic sense
not my teacher or employer
don't provide me any products
can't sell my own products to them
they don't live in my countryLets start from here. Give me rational reasons and moral values for which I should be good to them. Please, do debunk anything you deem illogical here. I am trying to see if a peaceful world without belief in God is possible.
Shalom Aleikhem,
Even though the qualities I will talk about are also present in other creatures to a degree, I'll limit my post to discussions about human beings only.
Unless there is something wrong with your brain, you should have the ability to empathize. You should prefer life over death, health over sickness, pleasure over suffering. The mirror neurons in your brain helps you put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand the consequences of your actions to their lives. We are social creatures after all. Not only us, almost all creatures that evolved under the selection pressure of being in groups possesses the ability to get along by reciprocating.
Do this thought experiment
WARNING, DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE TO BRUTAL AND GORE THINGS
Imagine taking a knife and shoving it into the eye socket of a baby while using a drilling machine to brutalize the anus of the baby.
Did that thought disturb you? Was there a discomfort involved in your head when you were visualizing doing that? Or did it feel just like being asked to read a newspaper? If it felt horrible, then you, like 99.99% of human beings have a built in sense for this. That built in sense is what guides you. It is not perfect but works. If it felt just as normal as reading a newspaper, please see a psychiatrist and a neurosurgeon ASAP!
The biggest defeater to your line of reasoning I believe is this
Conduct a little study. Find out the religious demographic of various countries. Do this for as many countries as possible. Now, do a religious demographic study for the prison population of those same countries. If your line of reasoning is correct, then you should expect to find that the prison populations of all these countries are overwhelmingly disbelievers in God.
Guess what? Your research will surprise you. Atheists do not make up the majority of the inmates in any country's prisons (unless of course that country already has atheists as the majority of their population). This alone should conclusively prove to you that the mere lack of belief in Gods and Goddesses does not tell you ANYTHING about how moral or immoral a person IS.
It's sad that one would even think that. Please do not take offence to what I will say now. It's not personal but merely a remark based on my observation. You make it sound like the only reason you have the will to do good and avoid evil is because someone is looking (in your case Allah). When an atheist buys a poor guy some food, she does it not because someone is looking, but because she genuinely feels for that poor guy. I don't know about you but when an atheist wakes up in the morning and doesn't go around killing and raping everyone, it's not because of what would God think. It is because they aren't a psychopath. If you genuinely felt for others, you wouldn't require the permission of a cosmic deity to do the right thing. I think we all should have enough dignity and self respect to not wait for someone's permission to be good and to avoid bad. I mean, really? I have seen animals share food with other species of animals. I have seen a dog trying to save a freaking fish! And now I have to explain why I, one of the most highly intelligent species on this planet capable of decoding human genome and sending man to moon, should naturally be better at those things than those animals?
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Its weird that I was directed to this thread when I was posting somewhere else.
So I have deleted the post to take it over there. And people, I didn't get to read all the replies. I will do it very soon. Sometimes I get tempted to respond in other threads. Sorry about it. -
Jack,
I'm not sure that humans are necessarily incapable of thinking for themselves, or that religion has absolutely no effect on our tendency for violence.
Look at what religion teaches - blind faith, conformity, fear of hell, etc. Those are things that can be great motivators for people to commit violence.
I do think a world without religion would be more peaceful. And maybe it's not a coincidence that we are living in the most peaceful time in human history and it is also a time when belief in God and religion are at an all time low.
And religion will continue to lose followers and science replaces it in all aspects of life. And I think humans will continue to become more and more peaceful overall. I say that because our natural tendency is to be good to others. We're designed to show empathy, to self-sacrifice. I think the struggle has been to extend that past our immediate friends and family and apply that to everyone. Religion has been a tool that has worked against it. And our globalized world is now making it easier to connect emotionally with people from all backgrounds, from all over the world.
And this is speculation, but we have practically been artificially selecting ourselves into becoming more domestic, more docile creatures. We have been breeding out our more aggressive, violent traits. And we are reaching the point where we'll be able to pick and choose our genes - and we'll cut out the violent tendencies.
But, having said that, there will always be people who put their self-interest above others. And some of those people will always be in powerful positions. And so we will probably continue to have wars and conflicts over nothing. But it will be less than it is now.
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Very good and accurate description of the humanoid creature. Indeed, without the Ruuh/Spirit, this creature/bashar walking on two legs is no different than an instinct driven beast. It is the God given sense of morality that makes this creature/Bashar, into "The human being" - Al Insaan.
But to address the topic, alright, you'll find that the number of people driven by instinct (this can be good or bad) will increase, but more of the "bad" type. This is because now even for those who would have otherwise been God conscious, would suddenly find themselves indulging in highly selfish behavior, many of which can often be destructive in the long run.
To others why should you give charity to an unknown person? Why should you care to give if someone's dying from thirst on the street and you have a full bottle of water for example? No reason, you're not getting anything in return for helping X, Y, Z.
Being useful or useless are highly relative terms.
To a national army, you and the majority of people are useless, and therefore should be annihilated because we're not helping the army in anyway (unless you join it in some way) and are a burden, for example, - that is rational. Would you now happily accept being eliminated in the name of rationality? This is actually going on in the grand scheme of things the world over, even if it's not bluntly obvious, if you want to see. And it is being done by those uh, "intelligent and rational" people.
A relative dying from cancer in 5 years, is useless to the society because he/she is not going to be productive. What about his/her family? To them those 5 years of company and moments are worth it - making this time "useful".
A no God scenario creates a materialistic, selfish world. Even those athiests you cite who are supposedly being very "moral", are driven by selfishness (i.e. they have instincts that fall into actions/behavior we understand as "good", they derive pleasure from helping people, giving their love and care to people and/or animals and in return they enjoy all these chemical reactions that makes them feel good, like a drug).
There is a universe of difference between morality, enjoyment, struggle, pain for God, and the same things driven by selfish instinct. In the former, you will also find doing things that are against your instinct, but may classify as "good". And you will also find yourself avoiding some things that otherwise resonate with your instincts, even though they may classify as "bad".
With the latter, you only follow your instincts, and the instinct is only focussed on the self with no regards for anything else.
I'm sorry, but that description of human nature is not accurate and really outdated.
Biology, not God (or God has through biology), has given us the ability to be moral and sympathetic and altruistic.The idea that humans only act good because of fear of hell or for the reward of heaven is completely wrong. Normally our actions are not based on such a rational decision.
And the idea that there is some sort of spirit in us urging us to do good is also not founded in fact. There is no evidence of any kind of soul/ruuh/spirit inside us.The fact is, even without god, there are many incentives, rational and instinctive, for us to be good. And for the most part people are good.
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There is a Spirit inside of us, our higher state of consciousness is that, but being good is a personal choice. There are other reasons than God and fear of Hell that causes people to be benevolent and one is obviously the fulfillment of the ego for the approval of being goodly from your surroundings. The same is true for being evil as you can gain approval for this and thus continue it. It is very primitive psychology.
People have the ability to think and such as anger and wrath has negative influence on a person. It generally causes them to be more of an animal.
Apart from God and Hell or Heaven, a person might also draw the conclusion that goodness brings consolation to the person. But in the end we can speak of doing what is commendable and is it commendable to be an animal?
The human Body evidently gains pleasure in violence, the media portrays violence in motion pictures, and cartoons for children are violent, just think of Tom & Jerry. We like to play games where we kill others. We may compete in sports where we beat someone else up. Many watch such matches. It is obviously in the instinct.
Care for our own is in the instinct but as soon as our empathy goes away we no longer care. We have problems to care for troublemakers.
Being good is usually constructive for the community while being evil generally only "benefits" the person doing it and maybe his closest kin. Being evil often causes discord and it will cause you to gain enemies as you wrong people being evil. Is that the life people like? Most people probably choose to be good because it will cause a lot of trouble not being so.
In Arabic evil uses the same word as darkness metaphorically and everything that brings darkness upon oneself is evil. When you are in darkness you cannot see. An evil person is shaded by that beast of theirs with its instinct and wanders in darkness and they cannot think straight. Any ignorant thought is darkness. Any thought of hatred is darkness. One is blinded consequently.
When you lose control and do something this is darkness even if innocently.
Be safe
Amenuel -
I'm sorry, but that description of human nature is not accurate and really outdated.
Biology, not God (or God has through biology), has given us the ability to be moral and sympathetic and altruistic.The idea that humans only act good because of fear of hell or for the reward of heaven is completely wrong. Normally our actions are not based on such a rational decision.
And the idea that there is some sort of spirit in us urging us to do good is also not founded in fact. There is no evidence of any kind of soul/ruuh/spirit inside us.The fact is, even without god, there are many incentives, rational and instinctive, for us to be good. And for the most part people are good.
I truly agree with you...God created morality, reasoning and knowledge for us to dwell the earth and, and we don't need any scripture to know that there is a god.
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Anyway, back to the exercise. Humans are groupthinkers, first and foremost and they always need someone to tell them what to do. Let's look at the world. The populace follow their leaders (their Gods as it were) because most people are incapable of thinking on their own. The leaders use religion as a tool to fulfill their agenda, because that's what the people follow. There will always be a "God". There will always be war, violence, chaos. If God didn't exist, does it stop? No; man is a beast and obsessed with ego and conquering 'my land is better than your land', 'I need better weapons than your weapons'. If you eliminate religion or God, I don't think you stop this mentality from happening. Atheists feel oppressed and attack the religionists. Religionists feel attacked and attack atheists. How does believing in a God or no-God stop blood from being shed? Ego conquers all.
I see that you have the same opinion that Emanuel and I have. I am scared of the consequences. It is unrealistic to think that once religions are banned there will be no more wars. That ego mixed with greed is the biggest problem we have in the world. But of course, not every country may get affected by it. They may still go downhill because of one group trying to have power over another.
Would people stop building bombs and fighting even if there was no God? hardly and that's rather naive to think so. The controllers, forces of nature (or angels if you prefer) prophecize this nature of man before man is even created (230).
Hmm and there will never be even end of suicide bombers. As we know, Kamikaze pilots didn't crash their planes into American ships because of Buddhism, but for the love of Japanese emperor.
I personally wish religions and dogmas didn't exist either, but the nature of man can't be helped. I think Atheism itself is a religion. It is not 'rational' to say that everything came from nothing.
Dogmas won't go anywhere....I understood it once I saw a thread where the member was trying to establish "a religious" one for this forum. And when it comes to atheism, the only thing that comes to my mind is sunnism. The people of the two groups share uncanny similarities.
Science is not about conclusions. There are no 'answers' in science. That's dogma. Saying God doesn't exist definitely is illogical and unscientific, not to mention arrogant.
It is not permissible to question science. Just "believe" http//www.mazeguy.net/bigsmilies/hypnotized.gif
In response to Reel. Few know what law is, and I fear even fewer grasp hierarchy, hence the delusion people need a leader, when in reality people need community which is denied through hierarchy.
You are talking about social construction. My entire master?s program has been all about it. Feel free to check out New Public Service Serving, Not Steering and an Invitation to Social Construction. The idea is very noble and according my preachers, I mean professors, its our job to demolish bureaucracy to make people come together to take all governmental decisions. I am supposed to work as a facilitator and not as public servant. I took it all in until two problems began challenging my view and I even wrote about this in one of my papers. Got a good grade, but no comment/ criticism from the professor. Now the two problems 1. Uninformed sheeples (the majority) 2. Elite consisting of corporations and defense
Social construction is not completely impossible. You can apply it in small communities, but in an entire country, it is not easy because of problem number 2.
That said, I have finally started telling myself the truth that there will never be equality among humans. Its just their fault. They search for leaders instead of doing things on their own. They only read what they want to hear.If a being is not empathic they are psychopathic, so yes not all beings are empathic, but that is to say not all beings have a soul, and on that is a profound truth, the war is between the empathic and the psychopathic, sadly the empathic are oblivious to that reality, so are easy prey. The hierarchical "world" is the manifestation of this war, the psychopathic rule the empathic with cold hatred and contempt, and the empathic for the most part worship what they fear, and fear is the basis of the psychopathic model, the fiction of God or any Deity is constructed to control the empathic and distract them from any truth, as knowledge will set you free, the chains of ignorance must be re-forged and well oiled to prevent such an enlightenment. So the fiction is used to prevent investigation of the truth, so they use the logical fallacy of a God or no creator as a limited choice fallacy to hide the nature of the Creator.
As I keep saying all the time, anything can be used to control humans and this includes atheism.
Law is constructive, always, and sharia is substantive , always, of course you must know what the two forms are, if you do not then you do not understand the subject
Constructive verse substantive -- http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/264/317/
Nice way you explained it. I am not a supporter of sharia laws. They are just one step closer to hell.
Look at what religion teaches - blind faith, conformity, fear of hell, etc. Those are things that can be great motivators for people to commit violence.
It seems we can say the same about government.
Blind faith= Government
Conformity= bureaucracy, rules and regulations some which are extremely painful
Fear of hell= Fear of jail when law is broken.
People also commit violence in the name of democracy.I do think a world without religion would be more peaceful. And maybe it's not a coincidence that we are living in the most peaceful time in human history and it is also a time when belief in God and religion are at an all time low.
And religion will continue to lose followers and science replaces it in all aspects of life. And I think humans will continue to become more and more peaceful overall.
Yeah, it would be great because then we will be able to save our natural resources through assisted suicide. Apparently, science is all about logic. Why allow retired old people to eat up the resources of healthy young workforce?
Biology, not God (or God has through biology), has given us the ability to be moral and sympathetic and altruistic.
Link to research study?
And the idea that there is some sort of spirit in us urging us to do good is also not founded in fact. There is no evidence of any kind of soul/ruuh/spirit inside us.
But you just claimed I say that because our natural tendency is to be good to others. We're designed to show empathy, to self-sacrifice.
The fact is, even without god, there are many incentives, rational and instinctive, for us to be good. And for the most part people are good.
Like the government, the boss at work, the teacher in school, the cop on the road, marshal law, no privacy?.its so much fun to not have any say and be slave to humans.
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I would like to see a world without God. Don't be surprised. Its just a case study of whether we can control the animals we have within us without religions/deen.
Okay, for a second let's say God doesn't exist. Belief has gone down the drain and all religions are banned. There is nothing called afterlife. There is no reason to believe in anything called karma because just like God it cant be measured in some lab. We can do whatever we like as long as no law is broken! You know in that case, government can punish us. Keeping this in mind and the idea that I am an atheist (just pretending), tell me why should I be good to certain people who provide nothing useful to me?
the specif group of people not useful to me in economic sense
not my teacher or employer
don't provide me any products
can't sell my own products to them
they don't live in my countryLets start from here. Give me rational reasons and moral values for which I should be good to them. Please, do debunk anything you deem illogical here. I am trying to see if a peaceful world without belief in God is possible.
Are you saying that all athiests have no morality? A lot of the morality we follow is not just religious, its cultural as well. Cultural and societal pressures play a big part in what we do and what we avoid in life.
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?Oh we would have god or gods all right! whoever needs a god willget it, even if it is not called a godbut something else, may be dad, may be a Censor,may be a Presidente may be an Idea who rules or imposes criteria through its propounders or interreters. Ideas are not God, but they do have a potential for getting illegitimate power using them.
Finally God, gods mostly are ideas.
Also, power and thirst for power exist independently of gods or no gods or God or no God, and whoever thirsts for power will use everythign to get it. That is, will do the same power seeker sdo now but will use a different vocabulary.
Salaam
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Are you saying that all athiests have no morality? A lot of the morality we follow is not just religious, its cultural as well. Cultural and societal pressures play a big part in what we do and what we avoid in life.
Read the past posts and see what is going on.
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What makes us truly sophisticated is our share of Rabb in ourselves. One cannot say God does not exists but the answer is that God is a pantheistic phenomenon. The more developed a soul the greater their influence in the Grand Consciousness they are, but obviously the total Rabb is always greater in encompassing measure.
We are also not as independent as we may think due to above argument, but our aim is to become as independent as we can and a considerable part of Rabb. If a powerful soul has prophesied in the past we are victim to the prophecy if we are destined to fulfill it. We create the future in symbiosis together, affecting depending on our generation of independence. This collective makes Rabb. That way Rabb is always greater than an individual soul, but we are not separate from Rabb even if we are to be considered lifeless (in soul mental level).
Lifelessness is being a lack of conscious awareness and particularly those who are slaves to the Bodies, often called "The Flesh" (the Bodily = al-jinn). These people do not really exist even if they may be deluded enough to believe so in their own little sphere. These people are victims and the culprit is their own Bodies which were designed to deceive and corrupt. A grand majority of people in the World are "automated" beings very predictable and lost. It is hard to exit the delusion. The only way is to take steps to get out of its pattern, and the most crucial is to take control and cut off from its instinctive drive.
Living oblivious of who you are is vanity. One should reflect every time they do things in life of why they do it. "Why do I like to do this?". "Am I not a slave by this arousal and release of dopamine?"
I am sure a great amount of people would realize how vain lives they actually live doing meaningless things. What do they satisfy, a lowly primate or a powerful Spirit?
The only meaningful purpose is to nurture spirituality and make sure offspring get the equal level of nurture and to learn that Satan (the instinct) is the most important problem in their lives. The life does not have to be become unexciting but can be fairly exciting actually. You feel you grow in control of everything. Learn what comes from your Body and what comes from Spirit - make a separation. That Holy Spirit is very superior and powerful and is inherent in every conscious being but many do not let it grow within in them, or rather it is imperceptible to them.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Why would you want to see it?
lol, no, I just wanted to know how it would go. A claim circulating online is that the world will be peaceful without God/religions. But umm, all of us are pretty educated about what happens when men are given the right to decide what is moral.
I have been still doing research on morals in the atheist world theme. Unfortunately, what I find equals to what wahhabis and other sectarian scholars say to keep Muslims under control and without rights. That's scary. These days, even the atheist scholars have started looking like clerics to me. If today things look like this then imagine how the real atheist world will look like. Here comes the renowned Sheikh Richard Dawkins
https//lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TkR5_czUar8/VpLXDnC20QI/AAAAAAAAAHE/fUNA5GtrWWM/s600-Ic42/d.pngThen salafi atheists (his fans) give him support
https//lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aE0l9Iirh14/VpNTLA4-ezI/AAAAAAAAAHo/0_t7qy7GCoo/s512-Ic42/salafiatheists.pngApparently, another atheist sheikh named Harris believes our decisions are not guided by free will. He also believes in violence and profiling of infidels called Muslims.
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Religions being the culprit of everything is such a commonplace... As if religions were something outside human beings, some sort of etereal existence that fromthe nothingness manages to make men do that they the etereal thing named religion decides, because religions are also beings though etereal capable to decide and to decide instead of people.
Also ideas are not responsible for anything at all, but persons who old them or who hate them or who given them cult are the ones who are bad or good. As long as there is people there will be bad and good, because it is them who get the ideas and use them for this or that.
Salaam
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It is the level of empathy that matters. Sympathy or not is one thing, but one needs empathy.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Religions being the culprit of everything is such a commonplace... As if religions were something outside human beings, some sort of etereal existence that fromthe nothingness manages to make men do that they the etereal thing named religion decides, because religions are also beings though etereal capable to decide and to decide instead of people.
Atheism is pretty much a religion.
God is like the cushion for the survival of the humans.
Take him out of the picture and you will find dominating humans taking over your mind and body. There will be no way to argue about why certain innocent person does not deserve to die.
It is the level of empathy that matters. Sympathy or not is one thing, but one needs empathy.
Not possible for certain groups
Group 1 Those who can't think independently and decide. Must stick to what the society says.
Group 2 Those who believe everything shown on tv is correct.
Group 3 Those who believe we know everything.
Group 4 Those who think rationality is the key to all the possibilities.Do you mean we are all atheists, or simply God does not exist?
No mention of God anymore. No one is allowed to practice his religion.
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No mention of God anymore. No one is allowed to practice his religion.
Salaam,
Ok
God is just a weird excuse to do bad things.
The wicked will always find justifications for their doings.
People kill in name of freedom, democracy, love, etc etc etc
So I think it would not change anything, only a shift in motivation.Salaam,
Bender