The "Difference between Messengers/Prophets" .
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peace .
two important verses that i left out of my initial post351 Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, who
appointeth the angels messengers...3428 And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of
good tidings and a warner unto all mankind; but most of mankind
know not. -
Peace All,
I think 4251 sums it up nicely
It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.
Wama kana libasharin an yukallimahu Allahu illa wahyan aw min wara-i hijabin aw yursila rasoolan fayoohiya bi-ithnihi ma yashao innahu AAaliyyun hakeemun
Here we see 3 ways that God communicates with man
(1) Inspiration
(2) From behind a veil/barrier
(3) Through a messengerIn my opinion, wahy through inspiration is found when we are clear of worldly thought and bias. Wahy from behind a veil/barrier is found when we witness nature. And the 3rd form of wahy is self-evident, although, I think one still needs to be free of preconceptions and wordly thought and bias to be able to pick up on this form of wahy through a messenger.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
I think 4251 sums it up nicely
Here we see 3 ways that God communicates with man
(1) Inspiration
(2) From behind a veil/barrier
(3) Through a messengerI think the God communicated with Moses behind a non physical veil/barrier because when the God revealed Himself to the mountain, He caused it to crumble (7143)
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Peace Marie,
You stated
I think the God communicated with Moses behind a non physical veil/barrier because when the God revealed Himself to the mountain, He caused it to crumble (7143)
I've thought about this also. What steers me away, however, is that Moses was in fact a messenger. Hence, his wahy was revealed to him through the 3rd avenue of revelation, as stated in 4251..."or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills"
Peace,
Tay -
Salam Tay,
I've thought about this also. What steers me away, however, is that Moses was in fact a messenger. Hence, his wahy was revealed to him through the 3rd avenue of revelation, as stated in 4251..."or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills"
Moses talked to the God (2253), that doesn't exclude other ways of revelation (452).
- Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.
The prophet Muhammad received His wahy (26192) through the trusted Spirit (26193), I don't think that he receided it only through this way.
Below is an example
- God said ?O Jesus, I will let you die, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who rejected until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me is your return so I will judge between all of you in what it was that you disputed.?
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Peace Marie,
You stated,
Moses talked to the God (2253), that doesn't exclude other ways of revelation (452).
I agree. Although, I don't see the connection to 452.
I think what is important is in 4251, we are told that God does not talk to man except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger
What I gather is that man and messenger here are seperated, and man indeed is capable of 'talking" to God.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Moses talked to the God (2253), that doesn't exclude other ways of revelation (452).
I agree. Although, I don't see the connection to 452.
The connection to 452 is that Moses is more than a mortal man like the other messengers.
I think what is important is in 4251, we are told that God does not talk to man except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger
What I gather is that man and messenger here are seperated, and man indeed is capable of 'talking" to God.
The human beings who speak to the God by inspiration, or behind a veil or through a messenger are more than a mortal human being messenger like Muhammad, Isa, Moses, Salih, Nooh...
379 Never would a human being, whom Allah has blessed with the Scripture, Wisdom and Prophethood, say to people, ?Be servants of me instead of Allah.? Instead he would say, ?Become men of God by spreading the knowledge of the Scripture and the teachings you learn there from.?
4251 And it is not for any human being that Allah will speak to him other than through direct Revelation (on the heart of His Messengers) or from behind a barrier (such as at Mount Sinai to Moses) or by sending a Messenger to convey His Words with His Permission (as all Messengers did). Verily, He is the Most High, the Wise.
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Peace Marie,
452 It is they whom Allah has rejected, and there is no one to help whom Allah rejects.
Please, forgive my ignorance, but how, exactly, does this connect to "Moses is more than a mortal man like the other messengers."
The human beings who speak to the God by inspiration, or behind a veil or through a messenger are more than a mortal human being messenger like Muhammad, Isa, Moses, Salih, Nooh...
So there are messengers, and people who are more than messengers?
Doesn't the Qur'an tell us that all messengers were merely people who had to eat and sleep like the rest of us?Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
So there are messengers, and people who are more than messengers?
No.
Sometimes, I say the opposite of my thought ops
I rephrase my statement Moses is anything other than a human messenger.Doesn't the Qur'an tell us that all messengers were merely people who had to eat and sleep like the rest of us?
.Exactly )
This is why the God speaks about them as human beings whom He blessed by His revelation through several ways.
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Peace Marie,
I understand that English is not your native tongue. Please allow me to correct you based on what I think you're expressing
"Moses is anything other than a human messenger."
this should be stated as
"Moses is nothing more than a human messenger"
or, more succintly
"Moses is a human messenger"
This is why the God speaks about them as human beings whom He blessed by His revelation through several ways.
This is where we differ. 4251 addresses "messengers" as one way mankind receives wahy. The other 2 ways are through inspiration and from behind a barrier.
If 4251 was only addressing messengers, then that would entail other messengers who deliver the messages to the messengers.
This does not make sense to me.
Do you know of any examples where a messenger received wahy by way of another messenger? This would help matters.
Peace,
Tay -
in the name of God , Most Gracious,Most Merciful.
peace all.
i think i have found the perfect verse to show that the man in 381 was prophet Muhammad who confirmed those sent before him , not Rashad Khalifa3735-37 For when it was said unto them, There is no god save Allah, they
were scornful . And said Shall we forsake our gods for a mad poet? Nay, but he brought the Truth, and he confirmed those sent
(before him).the "mad poet" was Muhammad . who confirmed those sent before him . not RK . it shows that the messenger in 381 who confirm the previous prophets was Muhammad , not RK .
CASE CLOSED .
thank u God .
peace.
fahad. -
Peace Tay,
Do you know of any examples where a messenger received wahy by way of another messenger? This would help matters.
The God speaks to His messengers, to Mary the mother of Isa through His messengers
2275 (In His Almightiness) Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. Behold, Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.
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And the Angels said ?O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over the women of the worlds.?
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And the Angels said ?O Mary, God gives good news of a word from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. Honourable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close.?
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She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity.
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She said ?I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith.?
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He said ?I am the messenger of your Lord, to give you the gift of a pure son.?
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And this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
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It was sent down with the trusted Spirit.
1169 Our Messengers came to Abraham bearing a glad tiding. They greeted Abraham with ?Peace!? And he greeted them back with "Peace!" and made haste to place before them a roasted calf.
1177 When Our Messengers came to Lot he was distressed, and knew not how to save his people. He exclaimed, "This is a difficult day!?
339 While he was still praying in the chamber, angels announced to him, ?Allah gives you the good news of a son, Yahya (John the Baptist) who would reiterate the Word of Allah, be outstanding among men, and a strict disciplinarian, and a Prophet among those who greatly contribute to humanity.?
Of course, the God speaks to us through His messengers prophets and He gives His wahy to whom He chooses )
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salam all .
i need to make a correction hereMESSENGERS SENT TO HUMANITY WERE ALWAYS HUMAN
And naught prevented mankind from believing when the guidance came unto them save that they said Hath Allah sent a mortal as (His) messenger? Say If there were in the earth angels walking secure, We had sent down for them from heaven an angel as messenger.
actually messengers to humanity were not always humans, because the koran and the angels etc also act as messengers .
salam. -
Peace be upon you all,
I think what is important is in 4251, we are told that God does not talk to man except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger
What I gather is that man and messenger here are seperated, and man indeed is capable of 'talking" to God.
Yes, man is capable of talking to the God or Musa would not be an EXAMPLE for us.
However, I want to remind us all that the word "rasool" means BOTH messenger AND MESSAGE.
So it is not man and messenger that are seperated it is man from teh MESSAGE that is seperated, once they come together, that man becomes messenger.
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Peace Marie,
Thanks for the references. The answers were too obvious oops
Although I felt this would help matters, I'm afraid it's only compounded the issue.
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.
And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise.It seems to me the context preceding 4251 is about normal people, not messengers. Do you disagree with this?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
It seems to me the context preceding 4251 is about normal people, not messengers. Do you disagree with this?
If you prefer 4251 is about normal people who receive the God's revelation/inspiration and deliver it to us.
The messengers are nothing more than normal mortal human being like us and not super human.I try to seek the meaning of each word in the Reading in the light of the Reading itself. 4251 is a definition of the process by which a human being receives the inspiration from the God.
Which type of inspiration and which category of human being are concerned by this process ? The answer is inside this Reading.The Reading is an example of the God's inspiration. I consider it as a science/knowledge emanating directly from the God towards His messengers in contrast to the human sciences which are the fruit of several years of observation, experimentation.....We can see the difference between the content of this Reading and any scientific books.
We read in the Reading sevral information about the Day of Resurrection and after this Day....etc, Only the God holds this information which is not accessible to our scientific tools.
I hope that answers a bit your question.
Peace,
Marie -
Peace Marie,
Thank you for your eloquent response. I do realize that messengers are/were nothing more than normal humans. My apologies for being so vague.
Nevertheless, you have answered my question thoughtfully and, as I always respect your opinions, in this case, I remain in disagreement.
Surely I need to meditate on this some more, but I can tell, as of right now, all of my reading and witnessing via the avenues available to me points toward wahy being accessible to the layman, to every man and woman and child alive. Of course, this is only through the grace of God, but God's grace is infinite.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Surely I need to meditate on this some more, but I can tell, as of right now, all of my reading and witnessing via the avenues available to me points toward wahy being accessible to the layman, to every man and woman and child alive. Of course, this is only through the grace of God, but God's grace is infinite.
I completly agree with you but I think there are several type and level of inspiration with different purposes.
213 and 427 are a good example
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And We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired (awhayna) them to do good work and hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.
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And thus We have inspired (awhayna) to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.
Other Wahi than the quran ?
Peace
Marie -