The "Difference between Messengers/Prophets" .

Tay

Peace Marie,

452 It is they whom Allah has rejected, and there is no one to help whom Allah rejects.

Please, forgive my ignorance, but how, exactly, does this connect to "Moses is more than a mortal man like the other messengers."

The human beings who speak to the God by inspiration, or behind a veil or through a messenger are more than a mortal human being messenger like Muhammad, Isa, Moses, Salih, Nooh...

So there are messengers, and people who are more than messengers?
Doesn't the Qur'an tell us that all messengers were merely people who had to eat and sleep like the rest of us?

Peace,
Tay

marie

Peace Tay,

So there are messengers, and people who are more than messengers?

No.

Sometimes, I say the opposite of my thought ops
I rephrase my statement Moses is anything other than a human messenger.

Doesn't the Qur'an tell us that all messengers were merely people who had to eat and sleep like the rest of us?
.

Exactly )

This is why the God speaks about them as human beings whom He blessed by His revelation through several ways.

Tay

Peace Marie,

I understand that English is not your native tongue. Please allow me to correct you based on what I think you're expressing

"Moses is anything other than a human messenger."

this should be stated as

"Moses is nothing more than a human messenger"

or, more succintly

"Moses is a human messenger"

This is why the God speaks about them as human beings whom He blessed by His revelation through several ways.

This is where we differ. 4251 addresses "messengers" as one way mankind receives wahy. The other 2 ways are through inspiration and from behind a barrier.

If 4251 was only addressing messengers, then that would entail other messengers who deliver the messages to the messengers.

This does not make sense to me.

Do you know of any examples where a messenger received wahy by way of another messenger? This would help matters.

Peace,
Tay

Fahad1

in the name of God , Most Gracious,Most Merciful.
peace all.
i think i have found the perfect verse to show that the man in 381 was prophet Muhammad who confirmed those sent before him , not Rashad Khalifa

3735-37 For when it was said unto them, There is no god save Allah, they
were scornful . And said Shall we forsake our gods for a mad poet? Nay, but he brought the Truth, and he confirmed those sent
(before him).

the "mad poet" was Muhammad . who confirmed those sent before him . not RK . it shows that the messenger in 381 who confirm the previous prophets was Muhammad , not RK .

CASE CLOSED .

thank u God .
peace.
fahad.

marie

Peace Tay,

Do you know of any examples where a messenger received wahy by way of another messenger? This would help matters.

The God speaks to His messengers, to Mary the mother of Isa through His messengers

2275 (In His Almightiness) Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. Behold, Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

And the Angels said ?O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over the women of the worlds.?
And the Angels said ?O Mary, God gives good news of a word from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. Honourable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close.?
She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity.
She said ?I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith.?
He said ?I am the messenger of your Lord, to give you the gift of a pure son.?
And this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
It was sent down with the trusted Spirit.

1169 Our Messengers came to Abraham bearing a glad tiding. They greeted Abraham with ?Peace!? And he greeted them back with "Peace!" and made haste to place before them a roasted calf.

1177 When Our Messengers came to Lot he was distressed, and knew not how to save his people. He exclaimed, "This is a difficult day!?

339 While he was still praying in the chamber, angels announced to him, ?Allah gives you the good news of a son, Yahya (John the Baptist) who would reiterate the Word of Allah, be outstanding among men, and a strict disciplinarian, and a Prophet among those who greatly contribute to humanity.?

Of course, the God speaks to us through His messengers prophets and He gives His wahy to whom He chooses )

Fahad1

salam all .
i need to make a correction here

MESSENGERS SENT TO HUMANITY WERE ALWAYS HUMAN

And naught prevented mankind from believing when the guidance came unto them save that they said Hath Allah sent a mortal as (His) messenger? Say If there were in the earth angels walking secure, We had sent down for them from heaven an angel as messenger.

actually messengers to humanity were not always humans, because the koran and the angels etc also act as messengers .
salam.

salikahDC

An example of a messenger that was not human

Isa, perhaps?

What do you guys think?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I think what is important is in 4251, we are told that God does not talk to man except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger

What I gather is that man and messenger here are seperated, and man indeed is capable of 'talking" to God.

Yes, man is capable of talking to the God or Musa would not be an EXAMPLE for us.

However, I want to remind us all that the word "rasool" means BOTH messenger AND MESSAGE.

So it is not man and messenger that are seperated it is man from teh MESSAGE that is seperated, once they come together, that man becomes messenger.

Tay

Peace Marie,

Thanks for the references. The answers were too obvious oops

Although I felt this would help matters, I'm afraid it's only compounded the issue.

It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.
And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise.

It seems to me the context preceding 4251 is about normal people, not messengers. Do you disagree with this?

Peace,
Tay

marie

Peace Tay,

It seems to me the context preceding 4251 is about normal people, not messengers. Do you disagree with this?

If you prefer 4251 is about normal people who receive the God's revelation/inspiration and deliver it to us.
The messengers are nothing more than normal mortal human being like us and not super human.

I try to seek the meaning of each word in the Reading in the light of the Reading itself. 4251 is a definition of the process by which a human being receives the inspiration from the God.
Which type of inspiration and which category of human being are concerned by this process ? The answer is inside this Reading.

The Reading is an example of the God's inspiration. I consider it as a science/knowledge emanating directly from the God towards His messengers in contrast to the human sciences which are the fruit of several years of observation, experimentation.....We can see the difference between the content of this Reading and any scientific books.

We read in the Reading sevral information about the Day of Resurrection and after this Day....etc, Only the God holds this information which is not accessible to our scientific tools.

I hope that answers a bit your question.

Peace,
Marie

Tay

Peace Marie,

Thank you for your eloquent response. I do realize that messengers are/were nothing more than normal humans. My apologies for being so vague.

Nevertheless, you have answered my question thoughtfully and, as I always respect your opinions, in this case, I remain in disagreement.

Surely I need to meditate on this some more, but I can tell, as of right now, all of my reading and witnessing via the avenues available to me points toward wahy being accessible to the layman, to every man and woman and child alive. Of course, this is only through the grace of God, but God's grace is infinite.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

marie

Peace Tay,

Surely I need to meditate on this some more, but I can tell, as of right now, all of my reading and witnessing via the avenues available to me points toward wahy being accessible to the layman, to every man and woman and child alive. Of course, this is only through the grace of God, but God's grace is infinite.

I completly agree with you but I think there are several type and level of inspiration with different purposes.

213 and 427 are a good example

And We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired (awhayna) them to do good work and hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.
And thus We have inspired (awhayna) to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.

Other Wahi than the quran ?

Peace
Marie

Fahad1

An example of a messenger that was not human

Isa, perhaps?

What do you guys think?

salam slikahDC.
examples of mssengers who were not human would be the angels , . the koran is also a messenger .
salam.

zenje

Just to add to what Saladin said,

Isa was human, just like Adam. )

Fahad1

peace all .

what is the exact translation of the word "nabi" ? in my dictionary the word " naba" was translated as "to warn" or "to inform" but "nabi" was translated just "nabi" . so what exactly does nabi mean ? informer? warner ?

and i think it is better to translate "rasool" as "one who is sent" instead of "messenger" . because we see that the angels of death are also called rasools . the angels who record our every move are also called rasools .
but we know that these rasools dont bring us any message . they only do what they have been assigned to do . when we translate rasool as "messenger" it also makes a confusion that these rasool bring us some "message" which they dont . thats why it is better to translate them as "those sent" instead of "messengers" .

also i think nabi should be translated as something like "informer" or "warner" . i m not sure abt it yet . but i had read some verse sometime ago that make me think this way . i will try to find those verses .

also i think "nabi" sounds more like "messenger" . the dictionaries dont define "prophet" well enough . the arabic to urdu dictionary translates "rasool" as "one who is sent" and "nabi" as only "nabi" .!!!

please tell me what u think .
peace .

hlatif

Salam Saladin, all,

There are two root words that compete for the meaning of NABI
1- N-B-Hamza and it means for the noun news. So NABI is the one that gives the news. There is a touch of a problem here since you should expect a hamza at the end of the word as in NABI'
2- N-B-W and it means higher ground. So NABI could mean someone higher than other humans.

So, which of the two you choose as the root word for NABI will give you a different answer. Or, my preference, you can combine the two and you will get

Someone higher than others (in GOD's view) that gives the news (from GOD)

The two roots are from Lisan Alarab and the rest is my personal view.

Salaam all

Hussein

Fahad1

Salam Saladin, all,

There are two root words that compete for the meaning of NABI
1- N-B-Hamza and it means for the noun news. So NABI is the one that gives the news. There is a touch of a problem here since you should expect a hamza at the end of the word as in NABI'

salam Hussein .
by this u mean that nabi can mean the one who gives news ? r u saying NABI cannot mean "one who gives news" because it does not have hamza at the end ? i have just started learning arabic , actually .

hlatif

Salaam Saladin,

I was just pointing an area of potential argument related NABI. Some will argue that because it is not NABI' then the NABI is not the one that brings the news. Others will point that it is ok in the language of Quraish to say NABI and not NABI'

God knows best though. However, this is why I combine the two meanings together.

Hussein

Fahad1

So, which of the two you choose as the root word for NABI will give you a different answer. Or, my preference, you can combine the two and you will get

Someone higher than others (in GOD's view) that gives the news (from GOD)

salam hlatif .
it makes much more sense now

nabi Someone higher than others (in GOD's view) that gives the news (from GOD

also what do u think abt "rasool" . ppl translate it as "messenger" , but i think rasool should be translated as "one who is sent" .

salam.

zenje

Peace Saladin,

also what do u think abt "rasool" . ppl translate it as "messenger" , but i think rasool should be translated as "one who is sent" .

Messenger, in any language, never implies the person having his/her own message. But a person who is sent. So instead of the a word, you just used a descriptive sentence.

messenger
NOUN

One that carries messages or performs errands, as
a. A person employed to carry telegrams, letters, or parcels.
b. A military or official courier.
c. An envoy to another person, party, or government.
A bearer of news.
A forerunner; a harbinger the crocus and other messengers of spring.
A prophet the messenger of Allah.

TRANSITIVE VERB
mes?sen?gered , mes?sen?ger?ing , mes?sen?gers

To send by messenger.