The "Difference between Messengers/Prophets" .
-
Peace be upon you all,
I think what is important is in 4251, we are told that God does not talk to man except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger
What I gather is that man and messenger here are seperated, and man indeed is capable of 'talking" to God.
Yes, man is capable of talking to the God or Musa would not be an EXAMPLE for us.
However, I want to remind us all that the word "rasool" means BOTH messenger AND MESSAGE.
So it is not man and messenger that are seperated it is man from teh MESSAGE that is seperated, once they come together, that man becomes messenger.
-
Peace Marie,
Thanks for the references. The answers were too obvious oops
Although I felt this would help matters, I'm afraid it's only compounded the issue.
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.
And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise.It seems to me the context preceding 4251 is about normal people, not messengers. Do you disagree with this?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
It seems to me the context preceding 4251 is about normal people, not messengers. Do you disagree with this?
If you prefer 4251 is about normal people who receive the God's revelation/inspiration and deliver it to us.
The messengers are nothing more than normal mortal human being like us and not super human.I try to seek the meaning of each word in the Reading in the light of the Reading itself. 4251 is a definition of the process by which a human being receives the inspiration from the God.
Which type of inspiration and which category of human being are concerned by this process ? The answer is inside this Reading.The Reading is an example of the God's inspiration. I consider it as a science/knowledge emanating directly from the God towards His messengers in contrast to the human sciences which are the fruit of several years of observation, experimentation.....We can see the difference between the content of this Reading and any scientific books.
We read in the Reading sevral information about the Day of Resurrection and after this Day....etc, Only the God holds this information which is not accessible to our scientific tools.
I hope that answers a bit your question.
Peace,
Marie -
Peace Marie,
Thank you for your eloquent response. I do realize that messengers are/were nothing more than normal humans. My apologies for being so vague.
Nevertheless, you have answered my question thoughtfully and, as I always respect your opinions, in this case, I remain in disagreement.
Surely I need to meditate on this some more, but I can tell, as of right now, all of my reading and witnessing via the avenues available to me points toward wahy being accessible to the layman, to every man and woman and child alive. Of course, this is only through the grace of God, but God's grace is infinite.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Surely I need to meditate on this some more, but I can tell, as of right now, all of my reading and witnessing via the avenues available to me points toward wahy being accessible to the layman, to every man and woman and child alive. Of course, this is only through the grace of God, but God's grace is infinite.
I completly agree with you but I think there are several type and level of inspiration with different purposes.
213 and 427 are a good example
-
And We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired (awhayna) them to do good work and hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.
-
And thus We have inspired (awhayna) to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell.
Other Wahi than the quran ?
Peace
Marie -
-
peace all .
what is the exact translation of the word "nabi" ? in my dictionary the word " naba" was translated as "to warn" or "to inform" but "nabi" was translated just "nabi" . so what exactly does nabi mean ? informer? warner ?
and i think it is better to translate "rasool" as "one who is sent" instead of "messenger" . because we see that the angels of death are also called rasools . the angels who record our every move are also called rasools .
but we know that these rasools dont bring us any message . they only do what they have been assigned to do . when we translate rasool as "messenger" it also makes a confusion that these rasool bring us some "message" which they dont . thats why it is better to translate them as "those sent" instead of "messengers" .also i think nabi should be translated as something like "informer" or "warner" . i m not sure abt it yet . but i had read some verse sometime ago that make me think this way . i will try to find those verses .
also i think "nabi" sounds more like "messenger" . the dictionaries dont define "prophet" well enough . the arabic to urdu dictionary translates "rasool" as "one who is sent" and "nabi" as only "nabi" .!!!
please tell me what u think .
peace . -
Salam Saladin, all,
There are two root words that compete for the meaning of NABI
1- N-B-Hamza and it means for the noun news. So NABI is the one that gives the news. There is a touch of a problem here since you should expect a hamza at the end of the word as in NABI'
2- N-B-W and it means higher ground. So NABI could mean someone higher than other humans.So, which of the two you choose as the root word for NABI will give you a different answer. Or, my preference, you can combine the two and you will get
Someone higher than others (in GOD's view) that gives the news (from GOD)
The two roots are from Lisan Alarab and the rest is my personal view.
Salaam all
Hussein
-
Salam Saladin, all,
There are two root words that compete for the meaning of NABI
1- N-B-Hamza and it means for the noun news. So NABI is the one that gives the news. There is a touch of a problem here since you should expect a hamza at the end of the word as in NABI'salam Hussein .
by this u mean that nabi can mean the one who gives news ? r u saying NABI cannot mean "one who gives news" because it does not have hamza at the end ? i have just started learning arabic , actually . -
Salaam Saladin,
I was just pointing an area of potential argument related NABI. Some will argue that because it is not NABI' then the NABI is not the one that brings the news. Others will point that it is ok in the language of Quraish to say NABI and not NABI'
God knows best though. However, this is why I combine the two meanings together.
Hussein
-
So, which of the two you choose as the root word for NABI will give you a different answer. Or, my preference, you can combine the two and you will get
Someone higher than others (in GOD's view) that gives the news (from GOD)
salam hlatif .
it makes much more sense nownabi Someone higher than others (in GOD's view) that gives the news (from GOD
also what do u think abt "rasool" . ppl translate it as "messenger" , but i think rasool should be translated as "one who is sent" .
salam.
-
Peace Saladin,
also what do u think abt "rasool" . ppl translate it as "messenger" , but i think rasool should be translated as "one who is sent" .
Messenger, in any language, never implies the person having his/her own message. But a person who is sent. So instead of the a word, you just used a descriptive sentence.
messenger
NOUN- One that carries messages or performs errands, as
a. A person employed to carry telegrams, letters, or parcels.
b. A military or official courier.
c. An envoy to another person, party, or government. - A bearer of news.
- A forerunner; a harbinger the crocus and other messengers of spring.
- A prophet the messenger of Allah.
TRANSITIVE VERB
mes?sen?gered , mes?sen?ger?ing , mes?sen?gersTo send by messenger.
- One that carries messages or performs errands, as
-
PEACE, SALADIN
I read your analysis of prophet/messenger on your thread...
The "Difference between Messengers/Prophets".
Although I haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb, it appears to be a solid analysis of the subject. Given what you wrote, perhaps you can help me with something that I've been working on for some time now--the identity of the Jinn, are they--homo sapien sapiens or some other spirit/physiological non-human entities? You can read my analysis on the thread...
WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
Given your analysis of messenger, how does your analysis take into account the following analysis by me. Please pay special attention to ayats 6130 and 2275
Now, the following ayats tell us that Allah's messengers were male human beings
2185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong)...
12109 Nor did We send before thee messengers any but men--rijalun, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?
1643 And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men--rijalun, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
1795 Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
2520 And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things).
726 And that persons from among men used to seek refuge with persons from among jinn, so they increased them in wrongdoing
Now, above ayat 2275 makes clear that, Allah only uses angels and men as His Messengers , hence, the Jinn could not have had their own kind messengers, , showing that, ayat 6130, cannot mean the Jinn had their own species specific messengers from among them. My understanding, based on the above ayats is that, homo sapien sapiens messengers were sent to other homo sapien sapiens some of whom are referred to as the--JINN.
Basically, then, it appears as if the argument distills down to the following two ayats. I conclude that, ayat 2275 defines who the messengers were--homo sapien sapiens.
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.
Saladin, if you choose to respond to this post, please post your reply on the thread--WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN, for reasons of consolidation. Thank you and looking forward to your response.
-
Peace Saladin,
also what do u think abt "rasool" . ppl translate it as "messenger" , but i think rasool should be translated as "one who is sent" .
Messenger, in any language, never implies the person having his/her own message. But a person who is sent. So instead of the a word, you just used a descriptive sentence.
salam zenje.
but "messenger" gives the impresssion that the person is bringing some message . whle we have see that there are rasools who do not bring a message. like in the case of "angels of death" . they are rasools ,but they dont bring a message .Messenger, in any language, never implies the person having his/her own message. But a person who is sent.
did u mean that a "messenger" doesnt necessarily bring a message ?
salam. -
PEACE SALADIN
like in the case of "angels of death" . they are rasools ,but they dont bring a message .
Sure they bring a message..."your time is up and Allah wants to see you".
-
salam all .
this is my revised understanding of my initial posts on this thread .Nabi is the one who is on a higher level (where he recieves revelation from Allah) or one who gives us news or information .
Rasool is the one who is sent to do or say something .
NABI IS ALSO A RASOOL WHO RECIEVES INFORMATION FROM ALLAH AND IS SENT TO GIVE INFORMATION TO HUMAN.
A Nabi is sent to inform humans . He is the one who is on a higher level or higher ground than others ,where he receives revelation form Allah .
1149 This is of the tidings of the Unseen which We inspire in thee (Muhammad). Thou thyself knewest it not, nor did thy folk (know it) before this?
Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) NABIs as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed?
Muhammad was the last nabi , no one after him will attain the status among humans to receive any information through revelation from Allah to deliver to the humanity .
MUHAMMED WAS THE LAST NABI . BUT WHY NOT THE LAST RASOOL? AND WHO ARE THE RASOOLS WHO WILL COME AFTER HIM . RK ? Shareef ? Qadiyani ?!!
Koran clearly states that Muhammed was the last NABI and a RASOOL of Allah . Some people argue that since Koran does not state that Muhammed was the final RASOOL that means that there are more RASOOLs to come and that is why we have seen and heard, in recent times ,many people claiming to be RASOOLs of Allah and requiring people to believe in their messengership .
So who are those RASOOLs who can come after Muhammad ? I believe that they misinterpret the word ?Rasool?. They think that only a human can be a RASOOL. But that is a wrong idea according to the Koran which tells us that non-human beings can also be RASOOLs(not NABIs . only humans can be NABIs )
Non human RASOOLs
The angels are also RASOOLs
2277 Allah chooseth from the angels RASOOLs, and (also) from mankind. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Seer.
351 Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, who appointeth the angels RASOOLs?The ?angels of death? are also called RASOOLs
He is the Omnipotent over His slaves. He sendeth guardians over you until, when death cometh unto one of you, Our RASOOLs receive him, and they neglect not.
Who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah or denieth Our tokens. (For such) their appointed portion of the Book (of destiny) reacheth them till, when Our RASOOLs come to gather them, they say Where (now) is that to which ye cried beside Allah? They say They have departed from us. And they testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
The servants(probably angels?) of Allah who record our every move are also called RASOOLs
And when We cause mankind to taste of mercy after some adversity which had afflicted them, behold! they have some plot against Our revelations. Say Allah is more swift in plotting. Lo! Our RASOOLs write down that which ye plot.
Gabriel also functions as a RASOOL who revealed the Koran to the NABI?s heart .
Say (O Muhammad, to mankind) Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture) to thy heart by Allah's leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers;
And lo! it is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds, Which the True Spirit hath brought down upon thy heart, that thou mayest be (one) of the warners,
Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His RASOOLs, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.
The Koran has also been called a RASOOL in 6511, not NABI, all RASOOLs are not NABIs . NABIs are those humans ,as explained before ,who are sent to give news or to warn .
Allah hath prepared for them stern punishment; so keep your duty to Allah, O men of understanding! O ye who believe! Now Allah hath sent down unto you a reminder, A RASOOL(Koran) reciting unto you the revelations of Allah made plain, that He may bring forth those who believe and do good works from darkness unto light.
so we see that Muhammed was the last NABI, but he could not have been the last RASOOL in the presence of so many other RASOOLs .The angels of death , Gabriel , the Koran etc are all RASOOLs . It is only in this way that Muhammed was not the last RASOOL. We also see that angels ,Koran etc are called RASOOLs not NABIs . That is because only a human can be a NABI. In the Koran only the human RASOOLs are called NABIs, for example 1930, 1941 ,1949 ,1953 ,1956. and Muhammed was the final NABI (human RASOOL) .
Now we see that a NABI is one among many types of RASOOLs of Allah .What we learn from the Koran .
- NABIs are only one type of RASOOLs of Allah ,among many others types(for example angels of deaths , Gabriel etc). ie all NABIs are RASOOLs but all RASOOLs are not necessarily NABIs or humans .
- Muhammed was the last nabi , but ,due to the presence of so many non human RASOOLs, not the last RASOOL.
- So expect no more revelations and humans message bearers or warners i.e NABIs.
Looking forward to your opinions.
Who is guilty of more wrong than he who forgeth a lie against Allah, or saith I am inspired, when he is not inspired in aught?