Do we need books to believe in God?
-
This exact verse was one of the major reasons I lost interest in Quran a few years ago. No matter how I looked at it, it didn't make sense with the overall concept of Islam. It wasn't my only problem with the book, or I should rather say the translations. 434 was the first one in my list though. Talking to the spouse, and then separating beds are rational, however beating is not, it is weakness, opposite of peaceful. Somehow I knew this verse was fishy, just like any other verse about women. After a couple of months of break, I started searching for an answer, a proper translation, and found quite a few.
Here's one
Here is the foot note from the authors regarding "iDRiBuhunna", which have been translated as "beat" in many traditional translations
Peace Ahmet
You admit that 434 has been falsely interpreted so does that not raise any flags that there must be other verses that have been falsely interpreted by the hijackers(Muslims) of Quran. Why bother using a non-mainstream interpretation of 434 and not just accept it like it is?
By using your intellect the Creator gifted you with, you have come to the conclusion that 434 has been falsely interpreted to allow Muslims to beat their wives.
Quran has way more to offer than what the pagans who hijacked it wrote about its interpretation. -
Most of the time in Quran darab refers to "put forth" or "highlight". Many times when the sectarians have translated it as strike it meant put forth towards. 434 is no exception. Now of course the whole passage is wrong in the sectarian interpretation and translation so one tiny word does not do much...
Be safe
Amenuel -
Funny
Drab means to beat/hit. Ask any arabic speaking person.
Saying that the Author meant something else is ridicolous. So if the Author were God himself, he would have known that every arab in this world would understand "beat your wife". So either God is stupid, or he is violent, or he didnt write this bull***** . I would say he didnt. -
I'd say the latter is true. God didn't write this BS. All the traits of the writing in Quran are those of a 7th century guru with very limited understanding of the world (as was normal in those days) - a guru having quite a lot of misogynist traits.
Most of the users on this forum are quite hypocritical in what they preach if you contrast it to what they practice. In the Quran "Allah" states the believers should fight the disbelievers everywhere they find them, if they don't they are disbelievers themselves. So why aren't the keyboard warriors on this forum using their swords instead of their keyboards if they truly believe these are commandments from God?
-
Drab means to beat/hit. Ask any arabic speaking person.
Saying that the Author meant something else is ridicolous.Peace, most are illiterate and ignorant concerning Qur?an.
Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
signifies also he was silent; he spoke not or he lowered his eyes, looking towards the ground434 the menfolk maintaining over the womenfolk in what favor the god some them over others and in what spends they of from wealth theirs so the righteous obedient guardians to the unseen in what safeguarded the god and the ones whom thou fearing recalcitrant theirs so admonish ye them wa-uhjuruhunna/and leaves ye them in the rest place wa-iribuhunna/and shuns ye them so if hearken you so not seek ye of over them way of surely the god be height immense of
-
I'd say the latter is true. God didn't write this BS. All the traits of the writing in Quran are those of a 7th century guru with very limited understanding of the world (as was normal in those days) - a guru having quite a lot of misogynist traits ...
The statement highlighted above only shows a complete ignorance/misunderstanding of the actual message of the Qurn !
The textus NEVER claims to have been "written by G-D" !!! Had it said such a thing, it would have discredited itself (since writing is a human activity) !!!
The Qurn, as per itself, is the saying of an honourable messenger of G-D (6940, 8119). Ergo. Inspired by G-D (6943, 619, &c.), written by a mortal (294.
The so-called Mu`tazilah knew this,
which is why the createdness debate took place.SLM
-
The statement highlighted above only shows a complete ignorance/misunderstanding of the actual message of the Qurn !
The textus NEVER claims to have been "written by G-D" !!! Had it said such a thing, it would have discredited itself (since writing is a human activity) !!!
The Qurn, as per itself, is the saying of an honourable messenger of G-D (6940, 8119). Ergo. Inspired by G-D (6943, 619, &c.), written by a mortal (294.
The so-called Mu`tazilah knew this,
which is why the createdness debate took place.SLM
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
-
I agree, but just make it a 7th century sectarian cleric who interpreted an innocent text and it turned out chaotic.
Be safe
Amenuel -
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
Not that they wre not visible before, but now you are showing your true colours, and with a lot of pride too. Betther that way than pretending.
-
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
I'm no linguist. I only know Quran from translations and admittedly from other researcher of the Quran. After going tru many translations and many research articles i have come to a conclusion. The Quran if we follow its advice literally ( I mean by reading lots of translations, including word by word, and ignoring additional comments by the translators to make the sentence clear) is a very clear book in most parts, there are some parts that are not clear - and those parts are where translators do a lot of modification/additions to make the sentence clear and also add or make up things that are not there. It is those areas requiring the many modification/addition that is causing all the problems within sectarians and other religions, especially man made fatwas/laws being made equal to God's.
The Quran first began with a prayer to keep ourselves in check. Next the Quran says it is a clear kitab. Then the Quran says there are two kinds of ayah clear and unclear. Those who seek mischief tries to interpret the unclear ayah. For me just follow what is personally clear to you and not someone else. The unclear verses can be made clear by God through inspiration (you yourself understand it from within your rationality). And the Quran says 'what is from God is consistent' - thus look for consistency in understanding, filter out inconsistent understanding from the overall teachings of the Quran (you can only do this if you read the Quran many times in a language u understand). After reading the Quran, I also read other religious books, I can filter out what is inconsistent with the Quran, what is confusing I just leave them - no point causing mischief to urself. Anyway God do not punish you for failing to understand - if He does then God is oppressive (and that is not consistent with the Quran). The more you read, the more you gain, and someday the unclear gets cleared through inspiration where u don't feel doubt about it - the heart is calm and the mind does not object.
To answer the subject "NO" - you will be wondering about God anyway.
With books there's reference point, with pure thoughts the mind can wander. And it is one of the reasons I participate in forums to be in the presence of researchers and wider minded individuals.
PEACE.
-
Peace Hanslan,
Once i felt like you. I read the quran for years in german, arabic, english and i thought it was words inspired by god, the absolute truth etc and i also read other scriptures in light of the quran cause i thought there is a universal message from god hidden in all those books, but the truth is there isnt such a thang. God doesnt write no holy books (or inspires people to do so).
But if people believe that books might be holy they start beating their wives or they feel superior...or in this case they invent New meanings to get rid of their doubts and claim that arabs never understood there own Language and stuff, which is the peak of ridiculesnessWell, if your claim is true, why does no arab ever use "drab" as "to shun" ? And why doesnt the qoran just say "b3d minhom" or something similiar so every arab from morocco to iraq would clearly understand? If this book is as clear as it claims, why such confusion ? ...not to talk about the grammar errors, uncomplete sentences and foreign words that are wrongly interpreted...
-
Peace KingKreem.
Ya, interesting, Qoran is a unique book. Either you like or you don t? Also Qoran itself offers us the choice
Believe in it or do not believe in it. You are free and entitled to your own understanding and choice.
However there are those who believe every word of it.
Just ponder the following
We all know that there are over 1.5 billion Muslims around the world who read the same Qoran but most of them get nothing out of it or get a distorted meaning and understanding supported by corrupted scholars or terrorists or others... who are misguided because they chose to ignore God's teaching in the Qoran and go after man-made books or their own distorted opinions.We send down in the Qoran healing and mercy for the believers. At the same time, it only increases the wickedness of the transgressors.
God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from the tiny MOSQUITO and greater. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did God mean by such an allegory?" He misleads many thereby, and guides many thereby. But He never misleads except the..,
Say, "O people of the scripture, you have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people.
God points out the PATHS, including the wrong ones. If He willed, He could have guided all of you.
If we made it a non-Arabic Qoran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non- Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve,they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
When you read the Qoran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Qoran alone, they run away in aversion.
Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Qoran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.
None can grasp it (Qoran) except the sincere.
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except God and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." ...
Yes. I believe in it. I am biased. So I do not agree with those who do not believe in it.Oh and I have solid proof that it is from the lord of the universe. I must be deluded or crazy, because I am certain GOD has sent a message (Qoran).
And finally ,if things were as clear as day( like you and others want it to be) in Qoran everybody would have believed or everybody would have disbelieved. i.e life would have not been a trial (good v bad) Think about it?
GOD bless you .
Peace. -
Well, if your claim is true, why does no arab ever use "drab" as "to shun" ? And why doesnt the qoran just say "b3d minhom" or something similiar so every arab from morocco to iraq would clearly understand? If this book is as clear as it claims, why such confusion ? ...not to talk about the grammar errors, uncomplete sentences and foreign words that are wrongly interpreted...
Learn the difference between MSA and QA,
then i might consider shooting sitting ducks. -
Not that they wre not visible before, but now you are showing your true colours, and with a lot of pride too. Betther that way than pretending.
Ad hominem detected...
Feel free to attack / debate on the opinion but no name calling / attack to the person.I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
Correct..
Within the Quran there's a verse which stated "Whose words is it" that's being said there..
And guess what.. it doesn't claim that it's the "Word of God".
"Verily it's the utterance of a noble messenger, possessor of strenght within/besides/near the possessor the owner of secured throne".
(8119)Every book can be altered.. by anyone..
The origin of the book is definitely.. EARTH.. specifically Middle East region.
"Made in Middle East" should be stamped on the book.
And not "Made in Heaven"..Have any of you ever wondered on WHY the belief of "God has written a book" only exist in Semitic Culture?
I explained further with examples- Book Of The Dead (Egypt)
- Tanakh (Israelites / Canaan)
- Gospel (Israelites / Canaan)
- Quran (Arabic Peninsula / Nabateans)
On other parts of the world, nobody else has a belief that a book or set of books was WRITTEN by God (thus perfect/holy/no mistakes/ if you don't believe in it entirely you will go to hell etc..) Some culture / tradition has a belief that some Sages might be "Inspired by the Divines" to write a book. But the book per se is not perfect or holy and so does the Sage who wrote it.
-
Ad hominem detected...
Feel free to attack / debate on the opinion but no name calling / attack to the person.Seems like the moderators on this forum are more sensitive towards replies going off-topic than ad hominem attacks. Huruf has a long history of personally attacking me, not once has a moderator stepped in. I've kind of gotten used to it and I would honestly doubt if I really have put my message across clearly enough if huruf did not reply with something ad hominem.
-
"Verily it's the utterance of a noble messenger, possessor of strenght within/besides/near the possessor the owner of secured throne".
(8119)Every book can be altered.. by anyone..
Yes, through misconstruction;
like you e.g. misunderstanding and thus mistranslating the highlighted part of 8119.The origin of the book is definitely.. EARTH.. specifically Middle East region.
"Made in Middle East" should be stamped on the book.
And not "Made in Heaven"..I don't see any "made in heaven" in my copy !
Have any of you ever wondered on WHY the belief of "God has written a book" only exist in Semitic Culture?
I explained further with examples- Book Of The Dead (Egypt)
- Tanakh (Israelites / Canaan)
- Gospel (Israelites / Canaan)
- Quran (Arabic Peninsula / Nabateans)
On other parts of the world, nobody else has a belief that a book or set of books was WRITTEN by God (thus perfect/holy/no mistakes/ if you don't believe in it entirely you will go to hell etc..) Some culture / tradition has a belief that some Sages might be "Inspired by the Divines" to write a book. But the book per se is not perfect or holy and so does the Sage who wrote it.
I partly agree !
However, the Qurn doesn't say "if you don't believe in it you go to hell" !!! That's a misconception from your part. Your salvation depends on the weight of your deeds (78-9; 23102-103; 1016-9).
Salute
-
However, the Quran doesn't say "if you don't believe in it you go to hell" !!! That's a misconception from your part. Your salvation depends on the weight of your deeds.
Seriously?
But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron
Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise
But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
Disbelief is enough to end up in hell. One can only wonder why an omnipotent God would express himself in such a sadist manner. Moreover one can wonder why an omnipotent God would be bothered at all by disbelievers. Not to mention how odd this entire thing is when you consider the fact that Quran claims God is controlling everyones faith and is the one causing disbelief and rejection. Seems to me a rather irrational attitude.
-
However, the Quran doesn't say "if you don't believe in it you go to hell" !!! That's a misconception from your part. Your salvation depends on the weight of your deeds.
Salvation from what???
Note The entire idea of "Salvation through holy book" was also started / invented by the Semite, specifically Ancient Egyptian. In order to be "saved" from horrible torture happening after you die, on your grave, you must have / bought the "Book of the Dead". The holy book of the dead contains spells and mantras which can be used to avoid any horrible torture as thus securing your highway to heaven on your afterlife.
If you don't have or let alone believe in the "Book of the Dead" thus certainly you will suffer the eternal torture as your 'after life'... for eternity..