Do we need books to believe in God?
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Hi All.
Some of you may mean,you do not need a book. like this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT6qWghHkFI
For me that miracle is Qoran. Qoran does that to the true believer. And of course there is no miracle without GOD.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Nothing is taken out of context. There are several verses in the Quran that have been falsely interpreted to advocating violence despite the fact that it is meant to be a guide that brings you closer to your Creator.
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds and beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means For Allah is Most High, Great."(434)
Beating a woman is fighting oppression?
This exact verse was one of the major reasons I lost interest in Quran a few years ago. No matter how I looked at it, it didn't make sense with the overall concept of Islam. It wasn't my only problem with the book, or I should rather say the translations. 434 was the first one in my list though. Talking to the spouse, and then separating beds are rational, however beating is not, it is weakness, opposite of peaceful. Somehow I knew this verse was fishy, just like any other verse about women. After a couple of months of break, I started searching for an answer, a proper translation, and found quite a few.
Here's one
434 The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The reformed women are devotees and protectors of privacy what God has protected. As for those women from whom you fear disloyalty, then you shall advise them, abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.
Here is the foot note from the authors regarding "iDRiBuhunna", which have been translated as "beat" in many traditional translations
The second key word that is commonly mistranslated is iDRiBuhunna. In almost all translations, you will see it translated as "scourge," or "beat" or "beat (lightly)". The verb DaRaBa is a multiple-meaning verb akin to English ?strike? or ?get.? The Quran uses the same verb with various meanings, such as, to travel, to get out (3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273), to strike (260; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474), to beat (850), to beat or regret (4727), to set up (4358; 5713), to give (examples) (1424; 1675; 1832; 2435; 3028; 3678; 3927; 4317; 5921; 6610), to take away, to ignore (435), to condemn (261), to seal, to draw over (1811), to cover (2431), and to explain (1317). It is again interesting that the scholars pick the meaning BEAT, among the many other alternatives, when the relationship between man and woman is involved, a relationship that is defined by the Quran with mutual love and care (3021).
Now DaRaBa is a word with 10+ meanings in in Arabic. Of course you (not you ) would pick "beat" if you wanted to enslave women, and bury them alive in black cloth to keep them on leash, and marry a new one every 10 years to be able to feed your lust for younger meat. As Quran states, I understand that beating is one of the meanings of the verse, and I understand that it is not a meaning meant for me, and I denied all translations of the book until I found some people who chose not to betray their intelligence.
Here's my 2 cents on Quran. If you read something, and it doesn't make sense to you, it is probably messed up by a sectarian scholar. Try harder, and you'll find that there is a proper meaning to it. If you can't decide, skip it until the day it reveals itself in a proper way. Do not make a decision on that particular verse.
About the book making bad people worse, I still disagree. It's not the book, it's men submitting other men. Those people you mentioned, they do not read Quran to understand it anyways, they follow clergymen who tells them what the book means. I wouldn't blame any book.
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The aya is not talking about spouses, bu about men and women ing eneral and isnot addressed to any husbands but to the believers in general.They are general injunctions as to the functions of males and females as such, and the daraba part refers to women, not to wives, and of course it does notmean beat t all but to do something effective in order to prevent women who re in danger of disgracing themselves to do so. Read that part and connect it with aya 4.15, where it speaks about women who y'atina el fahisha and see whether it does notmatch prostitution.and it commands to settle them in the houses, not to imprison thembut to collect to settlethemin the houses. Where are they so tht you shoult put hemin the houses? In the street?
In 4.34, there is no beating of course becase besides nobody has broken anything, it says if you fear somethig not that something has happened and like all the ayas in that sura and that part of the sura it deals with shocial mattersnot with criminal matters. It is providing for social welfare not for punishments.
Salaam
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I agree with Ahmet. I remember the term was discussed in another thread a year ago. I was taken by the suggestion of Allah in the verse. Too bad the sectarians didn't get it, but it actually is a very common thing that the older Americans tell the young ones on how to take care of a boyfriend/girlfriend who shows tantrum. I helped one of my friends get back her boyfriend that way. I gave her 6 days, but he came within 2 days ;D
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somehow in my 'postquoting Bahman the wrintingdid not show,that is what I itended to post. I supppose now it is not the same but till I a well founded and rounded expression of arguments like he posted.I would herased it since it was not longer ffective but I can't.
Tha laughing clwn is an impressive well argumented answer which most highly commends the great intellectual powers of the poster. He indeed has broght much lihgt to the matter clinched it.
Salaam
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This exact verse was one of the major reasons I lost interest in Quran a few years ago. No matter how I looked at it, it didn't make sense with the overall concept of Islam. It wasn't my only problem with the book, or I should rather say the translations. 434 was the first one in my list though. Talking to the spouse, and then separating beds are rational, however beating is not, it is weakness, opposite of peaceful. Somehow I knew this verse was fishy, just like any other verse about women. After a couple of months of break, I started searching for an answer, a proper translation, and found quite a few.
Here's one
Here is the foot note from the authors regarding "iDRiBuhunna", which have been translated as "beat" in many traditional translations
Peace Ahmet
You admit that 434 has been falsely interpreted so does that not raise any flags that there must be other verses that have been falsely interpreted by the hijackers(Muslims) of Quran. Why bother using a non-mainstream interpretation of 434 and not just accept it like it is?
By using your intellect the Creator gifted you with, you have come to the conclusion that 434 has been falsely interpreted to allow Muslims to beat their wives.
Quran has way more to offer than what the pagans who hijacked it wrote about its interpretation. -
Most of the time in Quran darab refers to "put forth" or "highlight". Many times when the sectarians have translated it as strike it meant put forth towards. 434 is no exception. Now of course the whole passage is wrong in the sectarian interpretation and translation so one tiny word does not do much...
Be safe
Amenuel -
Funny
Drab means to beat/hit. Ask any arabic speaking person.
Saying that the Author meant something else is ridicolous. So if the Author were God himself, he would have known that every arab in this world would understand "beat your wife". So either God is stupid, or he is violent, or he didnt write this bull***** . I would say he didnt. -
I'd say the latter is true. God didn't write this BS. All the traits of the writing in Quran are those of a 7th century guru with very limited understanding of the world (as was normal in those days) - a guru having quite a lot of misogynist traits.
Most of the users on this forum are quite hypocritical in what they preach if you contrast it to what they practice. In the Quran "Allah" states the believers should fight the disbelievers everywhere they find them, if they don't they are disbelievers themselves. So why aren't the keyboard warriors on this forum using their swords instead of their keyboards if they truly believe these are commandments from God?
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Drab means to beat/hit. Ask any arabic speaking person.
Saying that the Author meant something else is ridicolous.Peace, most are illiterate and ignorant concerning Qur?an.
Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
signifies also he was silent; he spoke not or he lowered his eyes, looking towards the ground434 the menfolk maintaining over the womenfolk in what favor the god some them over others and in what spends they of from wealth theirs so the righteous obedient guardians to the unseen in what safeguarded the god and the ones whom thou fearing recalcitrant theirs so admonish ye them wa-uhjuruhunna/and leaves ye them in the rest place wa-iribuhunna/and shuns ye them so if hearken you so not seek ye of over them way of surely the god be height immense of
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I'd say the latter is true. God didn't write this BS. All the traits of the writing in Quran are those of a 7th century guru with very limited understanding of the world (as was normal in those days) - a guru having quite a lot of misogynist traits ...
The statement highlighted above only shows a complete ignorance/misunderstanding of the actual message of the Qurn !
The textus NEVER claims to have been "written by G-D" !!! Had it said such a thing, it would have discredited itself (since writing is a human activity) !!!
The Qurn, as per itself, is the saying of an honourable messenger of G-D (6940, 8119). Ergo. Inspired by G-D (6943, 619, &c.), written by a mortal (294.
The so-called Mu`tazilah knew this,
which is why the createdness debate took place.SLM
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The statement highlighted above only shows a complete ignorance/misunderstanding of the actual message of the Qurn !
The textus NEVER claims to have been "written by G-D" !!! Had it said such a thing, it would have discredited itself (since writing is a human activity) !!!
The Qurn, as per itself, is the saying of an honourable messenger of G-D (6940, 8119). Ergo. Inspired by G-D (6943, 619, &c.), written by a mortal (294.
The so-called Mu`tazilah knew this,
which is why the createdness debate took place.SLM
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
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I agree, but just make it a 7th century sectarian cleric who interpreted an innocent text and it turned out chaotic.
Be safe
Amenuel -
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
Not that they wre not visible before, but now you are showing your true colours, and with a lot of pride too. Betther that way than pretending.
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I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
I'm no linguist. I only know Quran from translations and admittedly from other researcher of the Quran. After going tru many translations and many research articles i have come to a conclusion. The Quran if we follow its advice literally ( I mean by reading lots of translations, including word by word, and ignoring additional comments by the translators to make the sentence clear) is a very clear book in most parts, there are some parts that are not clear - and those parts are where translators do a lot of modification/additions to make the sentence clear and also add or make up things that are not there. It is those areas requiring the many modification/addition that is causing all the problems within sectarians and other religions, especially man made fatwas/laws being made equal to God's.
The Quran first began with a prayer to keep ourselves in check. Next the Quran says it is a clear kitab. Then the Quran says there are two kinds of ayah clear and unclear. Those who seek mischief tries to interpret the unclear ayah. For me just follow what is personally clear to you and not someone else. The unclear verses can be made clear by God through inspiration (you yourself understand it from within your rationality). And the Quran says 'what is from God is consistent' - thus look for consistency in understanding, filter out inconsistent understanding from the overall teachings of the Quran (you can only do this if you read the Quran many times in a language u understand). After reading the Quran, I also read other religious books, I can filter out what is inconsistent with the Quran, what is confusing I just leave them - no point causing mischief to urself. Anyway God do not punish you for failing to understand - if He does then God is oppressive (and that is not consistent with the Quran). The more you read, the more you gain, and someday the unclear gets cleared through inspiration where u don't feel doubt about it - the heart is calm and the mind does not object.
To answer the subject "NO" - you will be wondering about God anyway.
With books there's reference point, with pure thoughts the mind can wander. And it is one of the reasons I participate in forums to be in the presence of researchers and wider minded individuals.
PEACE.
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Peace Hanslan,
Once i felt like you. I read the quran for years in german, arabic, english and i thought it was words inspired by god, the absolute truth etc and i also read other scriptures in light of the quran cause i thought there is a universal message from god hidden in all those books, but the truth is there isnt such a thang. God doesnt write no holy books (or inspires people to do so).
But if people believe that books might be holy they start beating their wives or they feel superior...or in this case they invent New meanings to get rid of their doubts and claim that arabs never understood there own Language and stuff, which is the peak of ridiculesnessWell, if your claim is true, why does no arab ever use "drab" as "to shun" ? And why doesnt the qoran just say "b3d minhom" or something similiar so every arab from morocco to iraq would clearly understand? If this book is as clear as it claims, why such confusion ? ...not to talk about the grammar errors, uncomplete sentences and foreign words that are wrongly interpreted...
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Peace KingKreem.
Ya, interesting, Qoran is a unique book. Either you like or you don t? Also Qoran itself offers us the choice
Believe in it or do not believe in it. You are free and entitled to your own understanding and choice.
However there are those who believe every word of it.
Just ponder the following
We all know that there are over 1.5 billion Muslims around the world who read the same Qoran but most of them get nothing out of it or get a distorted meaning and understanding supported by corrupted scholars or terrorists or others... who are misguided because they chose to ignore God's teaching in the Qoran and go after man-made books or their own distorted opinions.We send down in the Qoran healing and mercy for the believers. At the same time, it only increases the wickedness of the transgressors.
God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from the tiny MOSQUITO and greater. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did God mean by such an allegory?" He misleads many thereby, and guides many thereby. But He never misleads except the..,
Say, "O people of the scripture, you have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people.
God points out the PATHS, including the wrong ones. If He willed, He could have guided all of you.
If we made it a non-Arabic Qoran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non- Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve,they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
When you read the Qoran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Qoran alone, they run away in aversion.
Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Qoran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.
None can grasp it (Qoran) except the sincere.
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except God and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." ...
Yes. I believe in it. I am biased. So I do not agree with those who do not believe in it.Oh and I have solid proof that it is from the lord of the universe. I must be deluded or crazy, because I am certain GOD has sent a message (Qoran).
And finally ,if things were as clear as day( like you and others want it to be) in Qoran everybody would have believed or everybody would have disbelieved. i.e life would have not been a trial (good v bad) Think about it?
GOD bless you .
Peace. -
Well, if your claim is true, why does no arab ever use "drab" as "to shun" ? And why doesnt the qoran just say "b3d minhom" or something similiar so every arab from morocco to iraq would clearly understand? If this book is as clear as it claims, why such confusion ? ...not to talk about the grammar errors, uncomplete sentences and foreign words that are wrongly interpreted...
Learn the difference between MSA and QA,
then i might consider shooting sitting ducks.