Do we need books to believe in God?
-
Short answer no, however they are a guidance and a healing for believers and God
says that the believers will accept the books of God, and only the disbelievers reject them.Agreed
Quran is for those who choose knowledge to beliefs. It is a great source to fall back to.
Thanks to this book, we are able to get rid of 1400 years of accumulated ignorance
simply by using our brains, and studying it with an objective mindset.So, yes, we need "the book" to understand the concept of Abraham's Monotheism,
and acknowledge the Oneness God, however we don't need books to believe in "gods".The message is for every one of us, but the majority in a grand scale will not try
to understand it.Well said
peace
-
You are better off without a holy book than one with false interpretations."Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."(2244). This verse seems to advocate for violence but it isn't rocket science to figure out that it has been interpreted by Muslims to support their violent and oppressive behaviour.
This is a favorite verse for people who (a) want to use religion for their sick agendas, (b) want to disgrace islam. It is a part of a two verse message, and the first part is almost always dropped, so that it remains with no context. Here is how it goes
2243 Did you not see those who left their homes in groups, all the while they were fearful of death; so God said to them "Die," then He resurrected them. God has bestowed a great grace over the people, but most of the people are not thankful.
2244 And fight in the cause of God and know that God is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.
It is a verse taken out of the context of the whole book, and the whole idea of islam. What I understand from this, fighting for God means fighting against oppression. It never says attack like wild dogs, it always says fight against oppression to me. The book could be interpreted in many ways, which Quran also mentions. Those who don't have disease in their hearts will think, and find the best meaning among them, however they will accept all the meanings are sent from God. So I guess you pick the meaning you want, and live with it. If a person has agendas, he will find a way to do it, with or without the book. I don't think a book can make a person good or evil.
I will continue later on, I've got to run now
-
It is a verse taken out of the context of the whole book, and the whole idea of islam. What I understand from this, fighting for God means fighting against oppression.
Nothing is taken out of context. There are several verses in the Quran that have been falsely interpreted to advocating violence despite the fact that it is meant to be a guide that brings you closer to your Creator.
It never says attack like wild dogs, it always says fight against oppression to me.
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds and beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means For Allah is Most High, Great."(434)
Beating a woman is fighting oppression?
The book could be interpreted in many ways, which Quran also mentions. Those who don't have disease in their hearts will think, and find the best meaning among them, however they will accept all the meanings are sent from God. So I guess you pick the meaning you want, and live with it. If a person has agendas, he will find a way to do it, with or without the book.
Agree.
I don't think a book can make a person good or evil.
Quran can make a good person better and a bad person worse.
-
Hi All.
Some of you may mean,you do not need a book. like this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT6qWghHkFI
For me that miracle is Qoran. Qoran does that to the true believer. And of course there is no miracle without GOD.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Nothing is taken out of context. There are several verses in the Quran that have been falsely interpreted to advocating violence despite the fact that it is meant to be a guide that brings you closer to your Creator.
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds and beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means For Allah is Most High, Great."(434)
Beating a woman is fighting oppression?
This exact verse was one of the major reasons I lost interest in Quran a few years ago. No matter how I looked at it, it didn't make sense with the overall concept of Islam. It wasn't my only problem with the book, or I should rather say the translations. 434 was the first one in my list though. Talking to the spouse, and then separating beds are rational, however beating is not, it is weakness, opposite of peaceful. Somehow I knew this verse was fishy, just like any other verse about women. After a couple of months of break, I started searching for an answer, a proper translation, and found quite a few.
Here's one
434 The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The reformed women are devotees and protectors of privacy what God has protected. As for those women from whom you fear disloyalty, then you shall advise them, abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.
Here is the foot note from the authors regarding "iDRiBuhunna", which have been translated as "beat" in many traditional translations
The second key word that is commonly mistranslated is iDRiBuhunna. In almost all translations, you will see it translated as "scourge," or "beat" or "beat (lightly)". The verb DaRaBa is a multiple-meaning verb akin to English ?strike? or ?get.? The Quran uses the same verb with various meanings, such as, to travel, to get out (3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273), to strike (260; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474), to beat (850), to beat or regret (4727), to set up (4358; 5713), to give (examples) (1424; 1675; 1832; 2435; 3028; 3678; 3927; 4317; 5921; 6610), to take away, to ignore (435), to condemn (261), to seal, to draw over (1811), to cover (2431), and to explain (1317). It is again interesting that the scholars pick the meaning BEAT, among the many other alternatives, when the relationship between man and woman is involved, a relationship that is defined by the Quran with mutual love and care (3021).
Now DaRaBa is a word with 10+ meanings in in Arabic. Of course you (not you ) would pick "beat" if you wanted to enslave women, and bury them alive in black cloth to keep them on leash, and marry a new one every 10 years to be able to feed your lust for younger meat. As Quran states, I understand that beating is one of the meanings of the verse, and I understand that it is not a meaning meant for me, and I denied all translations of the book until I found some people who chose not to betray their intelligence.
Here's my 2 cents on Quran. If you read something, and it doesn't make sense to you, it is probably messed up by a sectarian scholar. Try harder, and you'll find that there is a proper meaning to it. If you can't decide, skip it until the day it reveals itself in a proper way. Do not make a decision on that particular verse.
About the book making bad people worse, I still disagree. It's not the book, it's men submitting other men. Those people you mentioned, they do not read Quran to understand it anyways, they follow clergymen who tells them what the book means. I wouldn't blame any book.
-
The aya is not talking about spouses, bu about men and women ing eneral and isnot addressed to any husbands but to the believers in general.They are general injunctions as to the functions of males and females as such, and the daraba part refers to women, not to wives, and of course it does notmean beat t all but to do something effective in order to prevent women who re in danger of disgracing themselves to do so. Read that part and connect it with aya 4.15, where it speaks about women who y'atina el fahisha and see whether it does notmatch prostitution.and it commands to settle them in the houses, not to imprison thembut to collect to settlethemin the houses. Where are they so tht you shoult put hemin the houses? In the street?
In 4.34, there is no beating of course becase besides nobody has broken anything, it says if you fear somethig not that something has happened and like all the ayas in that sura and that part of the sura it deals with shocial mattersnot with criminal matters. It is providing for social welfare not for punishments.
Salaam
-
I agree with Ahmet. I remember the term was discussed in another thread a year ago. I was taken by the suggestion of Allah in the verse. Too bad the sectarians didn't get it, but it actually is a very common thing that the older Americans tell the young ones on how to take care of a boyfriend/girlfriend who shows tantrum. I helped one of my friends get back her boyfriend that way. I gave her 6 days, but he came within 2 days ;D
-
somehow in my 'postquoting Bahman the wrintingdid not show,that is what I itended to post. I supppose now it is not the same but till I a well founded and rounded expression of arguments like he posted.I would herased it since it was not longer ffective but I can't.
Tha laughing clwn is an impressive well argumented answer which most highly commends the great intellectual powers of the poster. He indeed has broght much lihgt to the matter clinched it.
Salaam
-
This exact verse was one of the major reasons I lost interest in Quran a few years ago. No matter how I looked at it, it didn't make sense with the overall concept of Islam. It wasn't my only problem with the book, or I should rather say the translations. 434 was the first one in my list though. Talking to the spouse, and then separating beds are rational, however beating is not, it is weakness, opposite of peaceful. Somehow I knew this verse was fishy, just like any other verse about women. After a couple of months of break, I started searching for an answer, a proper translation, and found quite a few.
Here's one
Here is the foot note from the authors regarding "iDRiBuhunna", which have been translated as "beat" in many traditional translations
Peace Ahmet
You admit that 434 has been falsely interpreted so does that not raise any flags that there must be other verses that have been falsely interpreted by the hijackers(Muslims) of Quran. Why bother using a non-mainstream interpretation of 434 and not just accept it like it is?
By using your intellect the Creator gifted you with, you have come to the conclusion that 434 has been falsely interpreted to allow Muslims to beat their wives.
Quran has way more to offer than what the pagans who hijacked it wrote about its interpretation. -
Most of the time in Quran darab refers to "put forth" or "highlight". Many times when the sectarians have translated it as strike it meant put forth towards. 434 is no exception. Now of course the whole passage is wrong in the sectarian interpretation and translation so one tiny word does not do much...
Be safe
Amenuel -
Funny
Drab means to beat/hit. Ask any arabic speaking person.
Saying that the Author meant something else is ridicolous. So if the Author were God himself, he would have known that every arab in this world would understand "beat your wife". So either God is stupid, or he is violent, or he didnt write this bull***** . I would say he didnt. -
I'd say the latter is true. God didn't write this BS. All the traits of the writing in Quran are those of a 7th century guru with very limited understanding of the world (as was normal in those days) - a guru having quite a lot of misogynist traits.
Most of the users on this forum are quite hypocritical in what they preach if you contrast it to what they practice. In the Quran "Allah" states the believers should fight the disbelievers everywhere they find them, if they don't they are disbelievers themselves. So why aren't the keyboard warriors on this forum using their swords instead of their keyboards if they truly believe these are commandments from God?
-
Drab means to beat/hit. Ask any arabic speaking person.
Saying that the Author meant something else is ridicolous.Peace, most are illiterate and ignorant concerning Qur?an.
Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
signifies also he was silent; he spoke not or he lowered his eyes, looking towards the ground434 the menfolk maintaining over the womenfolk in what favor the god some them over others and in what spends they of from wealth theirs so the righteous obedient guardians to the unseen in what safeguarded the god and the ones whom thou fearing recalcitrant theirs so admonish ye them wa-uhjuruhunna/and leaves ye them in the rest place wa-iribuhunna/and shuns ye them so if hearken you so not seek ye of over them way of surely the god be height immense of
-
I'd say the latter is true. God didn't write this BS. All the traits of the writing in Quran are those of a 7th century guru with very limited understanding of the world (as was normal in those days) - a guru having quite a lot of misogynist traits ...
The statement highlighted above only shows a complete ignorance/misunderstanding of the actual message of the Qurn !
The textus NEVER claims to have been "written by G-D" !!! Had it said such a thing, it would have discredited itself (since writing is a human activity) !!!
The Qurn, as per itself, is the saying of an honourable messenger of G-D (6940, 8119). Ergo. Inspired by G-D (6943, 619, &c.), written by a mortal (294.
The so-called Mu`tazilah knew this,
which is why the createdness debate took place.SLM
-
The statement highlighted above only shows a complete ignorance/misunderstanding of the actual message of the Qurn !
The textus NEVER claims to have been "written by G-D" !!! Had it said such a thing, it would have discredited itself (since writing is a human activity) !!!
The Qurn, as per itself, is the saying of an honourable messenger of G-D (6940, 8119). Ergo. Inspired by G-D (6943, 619, &c.), written by a mortal (294.
The so-called Mu`tazilah knew this,
which is why the createdness debate took place.SLM
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
-
I agree, but just make it a 7th century sectarian cleric who interpreted an innocent text and it turned out chaotic.
Be safe
Amenuel -
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
Not that they wre not visible before, but now you are showing your true colours, and with a lot of pride too. Betther that way than pretending.
-
I was sloppy in paraphrasing Kingkreem. You are correct in saying Quran does not claim it was written by God but it does however claim it contains the unaltered words of God, inspired into his prophet. I'm still sticking to my point there is no evidence of a divine origin, there is all the more evidence of words originating from a 7th century misogynist guru with limited understanding of the world, granting himself authority over everyone, even going as far as allowing himself to have multiple wives (including children).
I'm no linguist. I only know Quran from translations and admittedly from other researcher of the Quran. After going tru many translations and many research articles i have come to a conclusion. The Quran if we follow its advice literally ( I mean by reading lots of translations, including word by word, and ignoring additional comments by the translators to make the sentence clear) is a very clear book in most parts, there are some parts that are not clear - and those parts are where translators do a lot of modification/additions to make the sentence clear and also add or make up things that are not there. It is those areas requiring the many modification/addition that is causing all the problems within sectarians and other religions, especially man made fatwas/laws being made equal to God's.
The Quran first began with a prayer to keep ourselves in check. Next the Quran says it is a clear kitab. Then the Quran says there are two kinds of ayah clear and unclear. Those who seek mischief tries to interpret the unclear ayah. For me just follow what is personally clear to you and not someone else. The unclear verses can be made clear by God through inspiration (you yourself understand it from within your rationality). And the Quran says 'what is from God is consistent' - thus look for consistency in understanding, filter out inconsistent understanding from the overall teachings of the Quran (you can only do this if you read the Quran many times in a language u understand). After reading the Quran, I also read other religious books, I can filter out what is inconsistent with the Quran, what is confusing I just leave them - no point causing mischief to urself. Anyway God do not punish you for failing to understand - if He does then God is oppressive (and that is not consistent with the Quran). The more you read, the more you gain, and someday the unclear gets cleared through inspiration where u don't feel doubt about it - the heart is calm and the mind does not object.
To answer the subject "NO" - you will be wondering about God anyway.
With books there's reference point, with pure thoughts the mind can wander. And it is one of the reasons I participate in forums to be in the presence of researchers and wider minded individuals.
PEACE.