Incest
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Hello bender you totally disregarded my post.
Hi,
Ok I have read your post now, but I don't think I can agree with that theory.
It's a bit of a long post to comment on that post, so I take this one.I highlighted in my long lost abou the Malaika
There are plenty of examples in Quran in which Malaika assume the form of men, it might not be their original form. But they have done it and they are well able to by the permission of Allah.
Abraham had honored guests who appeared to him and did not eat food
Lut received the Meseengers and his people demanded his guests.
God blinded them for their transgression.There is are no malaikats in that story.
A Messenger/Malaika appeared to Mary in her seclusion
Also not a malaikat
One trait that the Maliaka have is to cause apprehension on the behalf of the a Messengers and appear as people unknown.
Abraham was afraid of them, Lut also felt fear or he felt straitened, Mary sought refuge in Allah from the messenger.RED why? 3 or 1000 examples is not a proof for something.
They spoke and delivered their messages.
They are conscious independent beings.The only contradiction would be to deny this when it is clear that they appeared to people as men.
Show where you see the contradiction in the verses you speak of.
I did not quote a verse where I thought there was a contradiction.
This is a perfect platform for us to study and help one another.
Don't just claim soothing causes contradiction without showing it please.
You also overlooked the portion about the Jinn.
In what way would that theory make no sense?I strongly feel that you need an elaborate argument to make such claim.
I was not discussing with you, I was only focused on the posts of Invalid777, so I had not that feeling to elaborate an argument on your post.
You have nothing to counter this very well established theory except for saying it makes no sense?
bravoI have also no argument for Jesus not being God when I discuss with a christian who is convinced that Jesus is God.
This is not how we study Quran folks
Let's use Quran ayyaas in our arguments and analyze each premise.Everyone of us has his own methods for studying something.
Salaam,
Bender -
Despite all of the (strange) idea proposed by the so-called holy books..
Let's stick on the actual fact
As can be observed, the more distant the relativeness of the pair the richer the gene pool for their offspring will be.
Lethal gene does exist, the probability of lethal gene increases as the 'relativeness' of the pair become closer.The pattern of the result of this lethal gene might be observable even by the ancient people.
That's why they invented a restriction on whom can be married or cannot be married.However human has tendency to do marriage 'in between their own group', primarily to safeguard all of the wealth to be kept within the family. Yet due to this lethal gene.. they invented some rules on those who are 'distant' enough to be married (e.g. the same ethnicity, the same religion etc..) and those who are too close to be married (e.g. siblings).
Despite the idea proposed by "holy books"..
The first homo sapien wasn't born alone on earth..
He (or she) has mom, dad and probably cousin, brothers / sisters as well.
He might have wife or wives.. (or she might have husband or husbands) and the children carries along the gene passed by the first homo sapien.The progeny of the first homo sapiens has a distinctive mark which makes the group 'superior' to the other hominid.
It's their LINGUISTIC capability.. they can communicate better among themselves.. sharing richer ideas and they can communicate better which makes their collective hunting (or warring) effort more effective than other hominid.The group was initially evolved in Tropical region in Africa..
Yes the "true" early homo sapiens were essentially a tropical species, they hate cold winter and enjoy the hot summer.
Dark skinned and curly hair..
They begin to migrate out of africa arriving on the area which is now called Arabian peninsula...
Some of them migrated northward venturing deep into caucasus region.. some of them migrated eastward as far as today's Australia.Along the way, they encountered many different kind of other hominid.
Among them was the Neanderthal.. the true native hominid inhabitant of middle east, central asia and europe.
Bigger bodies, light skinned, straight hair and colorful eyes and hair.
Yet their LINGUISTIC skill was not as good as the sapiens thus their hunting (and warring) skill were inferior to the sapiens.Many centuries passes with sapiens and neanderthal living together side by side..
Normally they don't do inter marriage.. as both parties find each others as "unattractive".
Yet eventually conflict arises... and on each war.. the lighter skinned neanderthal loses..The sapiens captured the Neanderthal girls and women as war booty... and "Made Love" with them.. although probably not with a consent of the neanderthal girls or women.
Their progeny inherited far richer gene pool compared to 'only sapiens' counterpart.
They inherited the linguistic and reasoning skill of the sapiens plus the resistant to cold and also other local diseases from the neanderthal. Their skin is lightly colored and their hair becoming straight...As time progress.. such inherited characteristic proven to be 'desirable' for survivability on the sub tropical region.
As such this sapiens + neanderthal mixes become superior than the 'pure sapiens'.
And become the new dominant race in the region.This is what we know so far.. the Neanderthal genes can be found in ALL Non Sub-Saharan African living today, including European, Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Malay, Indian, Pakistani), Native Australian (Aborigines, Maori) and Native American. And no Neanderthal gene can be found in today's Sub Saharan African.
The early chapter of humanity story on earth.. as we know today..
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607283.0Although might not synchornized well with the idea proposed by "Holy Books"..
This fable does not synchronize well with anything.... neither main stream human history or science.
There is no indication that Neanderthal were lightskinned and CroMagnum dark skinned
and definitely interbreeding between these two species is a fat stretch. -
Ancient people think that the story of humanity started like this
http//cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-18-2015/tGUEfT.gifWell that was what Mr Atkinson are actually make fun of.. a satirical comedy to how religious people think humanity started on earth.. Adam, the first human suddenly fall off from the heaven..
The actual story of "humanity", as evidenced by the DNA of modern human living today, is much more complicated than that..
I post the story here..
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607283.0lol
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Through the development theory of the Spirit, scientific evolution does not have to be excluded. I trust what you can empirically prove with science and it does not necessarily have to clash with faith if you accept a faith which is not among the sectarian ones but based on logic and rationality. If Rabb inserted seedlings (blank "Spirit shares) into the Flesh to develop in a contradiction where the Spirit has to endure it for a long period with cycles as one human body lives for a certain interim, then it can go hand in hand with the scientific evolution.
This can also explain the varying level of life in different individuals with certain ones apparently more "deep" than others while many seem to mindlessly indulge in life without much reflection. The ones who feel slightly misplaced and alienated are actually spiritually developed and lightly conscious of that this Body of theirs is not really them. This difference can be quite showing in people.
Religion in this means absolutely nothing. It is all about exposing the true nature of your existence. You need to grow away from the enslaving nature of this World and be better than it.
You can say you live sort of in a schizophrenic condition and the solution is getting rid of the other and be, so to say, cured.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Man you've been warned about theorizing about The Spirit ruh. We've been given very little knowledge of it. This is in the Quran.
Furthermore you are not even using the Book. You're just hypothesizing and speculating with no knowledge or no book enlightening
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HP_TECH,
I am using Quran. This is very knowledge from it. But we all can have our own opinion about what it is others have and you can have yours.
Be safe
Amenuel -
As I said earlier once, I am open to the concept of evolution. I actually did have the kind of doubt that Invalid showed here. I mean I thought exactly like him. Huruf added some interesting things on the verse 230 in the last thread. The verses which continue after that are also quite interesting. Why should it matter if Adam could tell names? Memorization was what made him/them capable of ruling over all? Nope, I feel there is something more.
I'd say that today's research on evolution is somewhat flawed.I find it rather weird that whenever they find a fossil they try to fit it into their scientific story by force, but then it turns out to be false. Remember Lucy? Anyways, I have been doing research and came across some interesting things. I am posting only a bit of it.
Let me know what you think..Btw, Ibn Miskawaih is from 10th century."According to Ibn Miskawaih plant-life at the lowest stage of
evolution does not need any seed for its birth and growth. Nor does it
perpetuate its species by means of the seed. The kind of plant-life
differs from minerals only in some little power of movement which
grows in higher forms, and reveals itself further in that the plant
spreads out its branches, and perpetuates its species by means of the
seed. The power of movement gradually grows further until we reach
trees which possess a trunk, leaves and fruit. At a higher stage of
evolution stand forms of plant- life which needs better soil and climate
for their growth. The last stage of development is reached in vine and
date-palm which stands, as it were on the threshold of animal life. In
the date-palm a clear sex-distinction appears. Besides roots and fibers,
it develops something which functions like animal brain, on the
integrity of which depends the life of the date-palm. This is the highest
stage in the development of plant-life, and a prelude to animal life.
The first forward step towards animal life is freedom from earthrootedness
which is the gem of conscious movement. This is the initial
stage of animality in which the sense of touch is the first, and the
sense of sight is the last to appear with the development of the senses
the animal acquires freedom of movement, as in the case of worms,
reptiles, ants, and bees...." page5
You can check out this paper http//pu.edu.pk/images/journal/uoc/PDF-FILES/(11)%20Dr.%20Sultan%20Shah_86_2.pdf for the early Muslims who talked about evolution.The book says modern scientists didn't believe we came from plants. However, science is not set in stone. Here is 2015 scientific update on this
"Humans may have evolved with genes acquired from plants, micro-organisms and fungi according to a new study.
The University of Cambridge findings challenge long-held perceptions about evolution and suggest that the process may be ongoing.
The findings also confirm the conclusions of a controversial 2001 study which suggested that humans may have evolved with genes acquired from plants but had much less data available to analyse. Academics widely dismissed its findings at the time and methods used.
Researchers now accept that around one per cent of the human genome could have been transferred from plants and other sources following the significantly larger study."http//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11467685/Humans-may-have-evolved-with-genes-from-plants-study-finds.html
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There was some time ago a comical trio who sang a song saying that enough with the nonsense about who might be the ancestors of man, because it is final that man descends from the potato. It can be suspected that that potato ancestor, in Spanish, is due to the rhyme rather that to any scientific effort.
Now with this last post by reel I m becoming doubtful.
It was not said whether the potatos were raw or fried or boiled. I suspect, looking around, that they were fried.
Salaam
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Salaam, reel,
Which was that earlier thread?
I know I mentionned in some thread the suggestion by a Moroccan friend in a Spanis forum, where he said that the tree that is mentionned in the janna is a linneage tree. I tend to think that makes a lot of sense.
Going back to 2.30, I disagree with the translation of khaleefa as viceregent. In all instances in which the verb khalafa appears and in all cases which the word khaleefa appears it has been translated a successor or coming after, only in one or two instances, depending on the translation, it ha been trasnlated as vice-regent or somethig akin. one of them this 2.30.
I do not see any reason to translate it as vice-regent. To make the exception in this case and make it look like somethig different from successor or coming after changes the information. One may suspect that the information is changed because it was not then it would mean that there had to be predecessors in order to there be successors. That is, the present human species is not the first humann species on earth. There were some human species before, who shed blood. And that is why the mala'ika wondered why would their Rabb create again somebody who would make mischief.
The vice-regent twist follows not the Qur'anic revelation but the biblical account, where it is said that God creaated man in His image and likeness, which might be interpreted in different ways, some of them not unqura'nic, but some of them unQura'nic. The vice-regent thing is Unqura'nic, first because khaleefa is not vice-regent, and second, because God is under no need to put any vicregent anywhere if anything and anybody would do whatever He wants and nothing would obey anything else unless it obeys Him. To put it otherwise would be not to make man in His image, but to make God in the image of man, who indeed needs to put vice-regents, delegates, deputees, agents, etc.
So why create man, not as vice-regent but as coming after some other specimens which already left a bad track.
God explains, I know what you do not know, and asks adam the names of things. What does that mean... In my view it means the capacity to understand, to learn, the intellect, the capacity to act by own will. "Own will" and the intellect to handle that own will.
But there was also Iblees, who then and there showed his Own will as well, since he disobeyed God.
So, the question arises Was Iblees an specimen of that earlier humanity who had already given proof of blood sheding?
That also raises the question of what are the mala'ika? For that I do not have any idea myself. At least not yet. We are usually told that they are not corporeal beings. I do not know, not yet anyway.
It occur to me it something phantastic ?might they be previous quasi-human without Own will who had already lived on earth and were set in a new dimension but who have access to us fromthat dimension? Just a question about a ppossible possibility.
There is also this aya
43.60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding on earth.
There are other ayas of similar import.
and this
6.133. Thy Lord is self-sufficient, full of Mercy if it were His will, He could destroy you, and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors, even as He raised you up from the posterity of other people.
Here no particular people is addressed but the speech is set at the close of this life and men are addressed wholesale.
Also see, in ayas like 14.32, 14.33, 15.16 y 16.12 where God says that He has put at our disposal the sun, the rivers, etc. etc. So some people might understand that as a viceregency, but those things are also at the disposal of other creatures, not just us and, more impportantly, God says it that they are under God's orders. So no need of vice-regent.
And there is always the reason why we have Own will so that we can be tested. Our nature is to be tested, to evolve throw own will and testing.
We are not vice-regents (unless it is understood as regents of vice, excuse the pun) but since we have intellect and that intellect gives us power we may be tempted to believe that we are something above what we really are. Like Iblees, he did that.
Regarding this and the tree in the janna as linneage tree, think of the different species in the past, namely most recently the neanderthal and the cro-magnon. Cross-breeding might have been very dangerous for one of the species, like, for delivery, women could die in the impossiblity of very big heads coming out without killing the mother. Which might also explain the viciousness against women shown in the bible telling them that they will pay for their sin with the labours of delivery.
Salaam
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Which was that earlier thread?
Never mind, you just talked about the verse in your post above. I was here asking about the wife we see in verse 235
And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."If Adam is not a single person then does the Arabic word for wife means something else here?
Going back to 2.30, I disagree with the translation of khaleefa as viceregent. In all instances in which the verb khalafa appears and in all cases which the word khaleefa appears it has been translated a successor or coming after, only in one or two instances, depending on the translation, it ha been trasnlated as vice-regent or somethig akin. one of them this 2.30.
I do not see any reason to translate it as vice-regent. To make the exception in this case and make it look like somethig different from successor or coming after changes the information. One may suspect that the information is changed because it was not then it would mean that there had to be predecessors in order to there be successors. That is, the present human species is not the first humann species on earth. There were some human species before, who shed blood. And that is why the mala'ika wondered why would their Rabb create again somebody who would make mischief.
I am having little problem following the explanation. Do you mean to say that whatever beings were there had no connection to humans?
God explains, I know what you do not know, and asks adam the names of things. What does that mean... In my view it means the capacity to understand, to learn, the intellect, the capacity to act by own will. "Own will" and the intellect to handle that own will.
I agree. When I looked at the verse I thought of humans who could understand and learn to become civilized.
That also raises the question of what are the mala'ika? For that I do not have any idea myself. At least not yet. We are usually told that they are not corporeal beings. I do not know, not yet anyway.
Not definitely the ones described by mainstream religions. Probably, it would be difficult to establish their complete structure without seeing them.
It occur to me it something phantastic ?might they be previous quasi-human without Own will who had already lived on earth and were set in a new dimension but who have access to us fromthat dimension? Just a question about a ppossible possibility.
There is also this aya
43.60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding on earth.
I felt it hinted the power of angels. I tried to link it to Verses 4358-59 according to which And they said, "Are our gods better, or is he?" They did not present the comparison except for argument. But, , they are a people prone to dispute. Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.
I thought that by bringing up angels Allah is saying that he allows humans to dispute about the superiority of whatever Gods they believed in. If he wanted he could have placed angels on earth because they worship and work for him without any questions and disputes.6.133. Thy Lord is self-sufficient, full of Mercy if it were His will, He could destroy you, and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors, even as He raised you up from the posterity of other people.
Here no particular people is addressed but the speech is set at the close of this life and men are addressed wholesale.
Well, Allah can do the least expected for sure.
Also see, in ayas like 14.32, 14.33, 15.16 y 16.12 where God says that He has put at our disposal the sun, the rivers, etc. etc. So some people might understand that as a viceregency, but those things are also at the disposal of other creatures, not just us and, more impportantly, God says it that they are under God's orders. So no need of vice-regent.
And there is always the reason why we have Own will so that we can be tested. Our nature is to be tested, to evolve throw own will and testing.
We are not vice-regents (unless it is understood as regents of vice, excuse the pun) but since we have intellect and that intellect gives us power we may be tempted to believe that we are something above what we really are. Like Iblees, he did that.
Regarding this and the tree in the janna as linneage tree, think of the different species in the past, namely most recently the neanderthal and the cro-magnon. Cross-breeding might have been very dangerous for one of the species, like, for delivery, women could die in the impossiblity of very big heads coming out without killing the mother. Which might also explain the viciousness against women shown in the bible telling them that they will pay for their sin with the labours of delivery.
Of course, there are other things which can cause DNA mutation. That can change our biological structure and still keep us alive. But I don't know how long it takes for human body to accept it.
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I think a list of important topics to research before coming close to answering the OP would be
1)Establishing a consensus on the Malaika, through context in Quran and by revising root meaning from trusted Classical Arabic dictionaries and lexicons ( i.e.TajAlRoos, Lisan AlArab, Qamoos al Muheet )
The issue here is not necessarily their structure, we may never infer that in our lifetime, but the question of them being Agents, entities, with independent wills is what's at hand. No where in the Quran does it state the Angels don't have a will, it only explains that they are obedient. A lot of people jump the gun and assume that because someone does not deviate from obedience then they are robots bereft of any independence and will. I think that's a flawed argument in of itself.The Malaika in my understanding are not all one kind, like Allah says He gives some 2 wings, 3 wings, 4 wings according to their positions and duties. Some arrange the matter, drive clouds and push winds, others protect and guard, others record your deeds, others are in charge of taking your soul at the time of death, others support you in your establishment of salat, others bring down inspiration of revelation, others fight as hosts against disbelievers and aid the believing armies, others manifest as human beings, warners. I think people try to generalize and say they are either corporeal beings or universal laws and forces but neither of those ideas alone encompass all of the traits of the Malaika we witness in the Quran
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Establishing the same as above a consensus on the Jinn. We must agree on whether they are agents, entities with independent wills as ourselves. If we find them to be independent beings an we know they had been created before man, then we can further investigate in the possibility of them having possibly dwelled on the earth or other above worlds before man.
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Janna is another topic for which much thought also should be given in order to better understand what is proposed in the OP.
Where was Adam told to dwell with his mate? I think it would be important to agree on whether Janna is in this dunya (beneath the lowest heaven/roof) or in the heavens above.
Some can interpret Janna to be a garden, perhaps an elevated garden.
Allah told the Angels He would place man on the earth.
We are told that the righteous will inherit the earth.
Could Janna then not be an elevated garden here on earth, nor the side of the valley of the mount where Moses so the fire and was told to remove his shoes or the same place where Ibrahim was shown the location of the House or a blessed secluded garden between and atop mountain ranges?
This would not deprive the command of Allah of logic
238 We said, "Go down from it all (of you), and when, comes to you from Me Guidance, then whoever follows My Guidance, no fear (will be) on them and not they will grieve."
Glory be to Allah. If you interpret Janna as garden then the idea of Janna being on this earth, does not deprive this ayyat of sense either
397
Waqaloo alhamdu lillahi allathee sadaqana waAAdahu waawrathana al-arda natabawwao mina aljannati haythu nashao faniAAma ajru alAAamileena
And they will say, "All praise (be) to Allah, Who has fulfilled for us His promise and has made us inherit the earth, we may settle (in) Paradise wherever we wish. So excellent (is the) reward (of) the workers."- Another important topic of course is the heavens. We must understand the construct of the worlds to get a better grasp of Janna and the possibility of understanding where Adam dwelt or if any agent dwelled on this earth before man (excluding the Malaika who arrange the matters). Allah tells us there are seven heavens one above the other. Stacked up on top of each other. Allah describes our lowest heaven as a roof. The roof of our world. If there are seven heavens/roofs over us, then there are six more worlds above us. This is mathematical unless you take seven to mean many which I doubt is the correct interpretation. Allah also tells us that He has created many of the likes of the earth
6512
Allah (is) He Who created seven heavens and of the earth, (the) like of them. Descends the command between them that you may know that Allah (is) on every thing All-Powerful. And that, Allah indeed, encompasses all things (in) knowledge.We can see from the above ayaah that the heavens are not just layers of clouds but contain earth like foundations. There are to the best of my current understanding at the least, six worlds above us, with likeness of the earth. Taking this understanding we may infer that perhaps Adam was still in a garden but somewhere in the higher worlds or heavens.
This would do away with Janna being on earth theory however require some more investigating on what the command of getting down entails if they are in the heavens.Yes so, pretty much if we study these topics in humility, through prayer and asking for God to increase us in knowledge we would definitely be closer to understanding God willing.
Salaam
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janna? is this in your opinion a return to the garden of eden spoken of in the book of genesis?
sorry to question just one person I'm a muslim and I'm just now asking questions about that.I wouldn't confidently compare anything with Genesis or the Bible in general.
Remember Genesis says God rested on the 7th day, while the Quran clearly states He established Himself on the Throne after the sixth moment/day/period. Allah tells us in the Quran that He does not slumber nor sleep.So will you exchange the bad for the good?
I take it to mean the same Garden where Adam was told to dwell in with his wife/mate/companion for a time after Iblis refused to submit to him.
The same place where they were told to get down from.I do not although know whether this place was in an abode near Allah or the blessed haraman/haven/Sanctuary that Allah has established for man on this earth.
Remember when the hypocrites said they were afraid to follow the believers because they would be swept from the land?
2857
And they say, "If we follow the guidance with you, we would be swept from our land." Have not We established for them a sanctuary secure, are brought to it fruits (of) all things, a provision from Us? But most of them (do) not know.2967
Do not they see that We have made a Sanctuary secure while are being taken away the people around them? Then do in the falsehood they believe and in (the) Favor (of) Allah they disbelieve?What is this Sanctuary from which all are safe from being taken away?
It must be here on earth.
Is it the same place Ibrahim and his son raised the foundations of the House and purified and cleaned?
Is it near the same place Moses had to take his sandals off because he was in a blessed spot?
Why is this valley sacred?
Is it near this inviolable sanctuary/haven? Or is it because the sign of the burning bush was a blessing?
Allah in fact says blessed is he who is at the fire. Is our Lord referring to Moses?1437
Our Lord! Indeed, I have settled (some) of my offsprings in a valley not with cultivation near Your Sacred House, our Lord! That they may establish the prayers. So make hearts of the men incline towards them, and provide them with the fruits so that they may be grateful.2012
Indeed, I Am your Lord, so remove your shoes. Indeed, you (are) in the valley the sacred (of) Tuwa.2830
But when he came (to) it, he was called from (the) side (of) the valley - the right in the place even, blessed, from the tree that, "O Musa! Indeed, I Am Allah, (the) Lord (of) the worlds.7916
When called him his Lord in the valley the sacred (of),We can gather that there is sacred valley and perhaps is it near a Sacred House and there is a Sanctuary established.
This may have nothing to do with Janna actually.
Because Paradise will be brought near see the Ayaahs below
5031
Waozlifati aljannatu lilmuttaqeena ghayra baAAeedin
And will be brought near the Paradise to the righteous, not far.8113
Wa-itha aljannatu ozlifat
And when Paradise is brought near,Notice how Janna is used here.
I still have a lot of studying to do but these are thoughts I had.If I had to conclude with an hypothesis, I would hypothesize Janna is above the regions of this world.
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I doubt Rabb rises on a throne too.
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True, but I am still confused. I checked some other verses where the mate is tagged as wife. Must look into it a little more.
Yes look at it, but I m not suprised at all, I am still dumbfounded before the amount of malecentric and other switching that has been done on the text of the Qur'an. It is really labourious to go through picking one by one all the jobs of "arrangements" or "rearrangements" of interpretrations and selecting of meanings that have been done on the Qur'an. I am still amazed that in spite of it all there has been still something left that is worth. THAT for me, is a real, ashtounding miracle. I would ever have suspected how far and how deep this rearranging job has gone, although I guess one should never be shocked. Human nature is really industrious when it comes to getting his or her fancies rather than what is intended by the good giver.
Salaam