Incest
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Salaam, reel,
Which was that earlier thread?
I know I mentionned in some thread the suggestion by a Moroccan friend in a Spanis forum, where he said that the tree that is mentionned in the janna is a linneage tree. I tend to think that makes a lot of sense.
Going back to 2.30, I disagree with the translation of khaleefa as viceregent. In all instances in which the verb khalafa appears and in all cases which the word khaleefa appears it has been translated a successor or coming after, only in one or two instances, depending on the translation, it ha been trasnlated as vice-regent or somethig akin. one of them this 2.30.
I do not see any reason to translate it as vice-regent. To make the exception in this case and make it look like somethig different from successor or coming after changes the information. One may suspect that the information is changed because it was not then it would mean that there had to be predecessors in order to there be successors. That is, the present human species is not the first humann species on earth. There were some human species before, who shed blood. And that is why the mala'ika wondered why would their Rabb create again somebody who would make mischief.
The vice-regent twist follows not the Qur'anic revelation but the biblical account, where it is said that God creaated man in His image and likeness, which might be interpreted in different ways, some of them not unqura'nic, but some of them unQura'nic. The vice-regent thing is Unqura'nic, first because khaleefa is not vice-regent, and second, because God is under no need to put any vicregent anywhere if anything and anybody would do whatever He wants and nothing would obey anything else unless it obeys Him. To put it otherwise would be not to make man in His image, but to make God in the image of man, who indeed needs to put vice-regents, delegates, deputees, agents, etc.
So why create man, not as vice-regent but as coming after some other specimens which already left a bad track.
God explains, I know what you do not know, and asks adam the names of things. What does that mean... In my view it means the capacity to understand, to learn, the intellect, the capacity to act by own will. "Own will" and the intellect to handle that own will.
But there was also Iblees, who then and there showed his Own will as well, since he disobeyed God.
So, the question arises Was Iblees an specimen of that earlier humanity who had already given proof of blood sheding?
That also raises the question of what are the mala'ika? For that I do not have any idea myself. At least not yet. We are usually told that they are not corporeal beings. I do not know, not yet anyway.
It occur to me it something phantastic ?might they be previous quasi-human without Own will who had already lived on earth and were set in a new dimension but who have access to us fromthat dimension? Just a question about a ppossible possibility.
There is also this aya
43.60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding on earth.
There are other ayas of similar import.
and this
6.133. Thy Lord is self-sufficient, full of Mercy if it were His will, He could destroy you, and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors, even as He raised you up from the posterity of other people.
Here no particular people is addressed but the speech is set at the close of this life and men are addressed wholesale.
Also see, in ayas like 14.32, 14.33, 15.16 y 16.12 where God says that He has put at our disposal the sun, the rivers, etc. etc. So some people might understand that as a viceregency, but those things are also at the disposal of other creatures, not just us and, more impportantly, God says it that they are under God's orders. So no need of vice-regent.
And there is always the reason why we have Own will so that we can be tested. Our nature is to be tested, to evolve throw own will and testing.
We are not vice-regents (unless it is understood as regents of vice, excuse the pun) but since we have intellect and that intellect gives us power we may be tempted to believe that we are something above what we really are. Like Iblees, he did that.
Regarding this and the tree in the janna as linneage tree, think of the different species in the past, namely most recently the neanderthal and the cro-magnon. Cross-breeding might have been very dangerous for one of the species, like, for delivery, women could die in the impossiblity of very big heads coming out without killing the mother. Which might also explain the viciousness against women shown in the bible telling them that they will pay for their sin with the labours of delivery.
Salaam
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Which was that earlier thread?
Never mind, you just talked about the verse in your post above. I was here asking about the wife we see in verse 235
And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."If Adam is not a single person then does the Arabic word for wife means something else here?
Going back to 2.30, I disagree with the translation of khaleefa as viceregent. In all instances in which the verb khalafa appears and in all cases which the word khaleefa appears it has been translated a successor or coming after, only in one or two instances, depending on the translation, it ha been trasnlated as vice-regent or somethig akin. one of them this 2.30.
I do not see any reason to translate it as vice-regent. To make the exception in this case and make it look like somethig different from successor or coming after changes the information. One may suspect that the information is changed because it was not then it would mean that there had to be predecessors in order to there be successors. That is, the present human species is not the first humann species on earth. There were some human species before, who shed blood. And that is why the mala'ika wondered why would their Rabb create again somebody who would make mischief.
I am having little problem following the explanation. Do you mean to say that whatever beings were there had no connection to humans?
God explains, I know what you do not know, and asks adam the names of things. What does that mean... In my view it means the capacity to understand, to learn, the intellect, the capacity to act by own will. "Own will" and the intellect to handle that own will.
I agree. When I looked at the verse I thought of humans who could understand and learn to become civilized.
That also raises the question of what are the mala'ika? For that I do not have any idea myself. At least not yet. We are usually told that they are not corporeal beings. I do not know, not yet anyway.
Not definitely the ones described by mainstream religions. Probably, it would be difficult to establish their complete structure without seeing them.
It occur to me it something phantastic ?might they be previous quasi-human without Own will who had already lived on earth and were set in a new dimension but who have access to us fromthat dimension? Just a question about a ppossible possibility.
There is also this aya
43.60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding on earth.
I felt it hinted the power of angels. I tried to link it to Verses 4358-59 according to which And they said, "Are our gods better, or is he?" They did not present the comparison except for argument. But, , they are a people prone to dispute. Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.
I thought that by bringing up angels Allah is saying that he allows humans to dispute about the superiority of whatever Gods they believed in. If he wanted he could have placed angels on earth because they worship and work for him without any questions and disputes.6.133. Thy Lord is self-sufficient, full of Mercy if it were His will, He could destroy you, and in your place appoint whom He will as your successors, even as He raised you up from the posterity of other people.
Here no particular people is addressed but the speech is set at the close of this life and men are addressed wholesale.
Well, Allah can do the least expected for sure.
Also see, in ayas like 14.32, 14.33, 15.16 y 16.12 where God says that He has put at our disposal the sun, the rivers, etc. etc. So some people might understand that as a viceregency, but those things are also at the disposal of other creatures, not just us and, more impportantly, God says it that they are under God's orders. So no need of vice-regent.
And there is always the reason why we have Own will so that we can be tested. Our nature is to be tested, to evolve throw own will and testing.
We are not vice-regents (unless it is understood as regents of vice, excuse the pun) but since we have intellect and that intellect gives us power we may be tempted to believe that we are something above what we really are. Like Iblees, he did that.
Regarding this and the tree in the janna as linneage tree, think of the different species in the past, namely most recently the neanderthal and the cro-magnon. Cross-breeding might have been very dangerous for one of the species, like, for delivery, women could die in the impossiblity of very big heads coming out without killing the mother. Which might also explain the viciousness against women shown in the bible telling them that they will pay for their sin with the labours of delivery.
Of course, there are other things which can cause DNA mutation. That can change our biological structure and still keep us alive. But I don't know how long it takes for human body to accept it.
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I think a list of important topics to research before coming close to answering the OP would be
1)Establishing a consensus on the Malaika, through context in Quran and by revising root meaning from trusted Classical Arabic dictionaries and lexicons ( i.e.TajAlRoos, Lisan AlArab, Qamoos al Muheet )
The issue here is not necessarily their structure, we may never infer that in our lifetime, but the question of them being Agents, entities, with independent wills is what's at hand. No where in the Quran does it state the Angels don't have a will, it only explains that they are obedient. A lot of people jump the gun and assume that because someone does not deviate from obedience then they are robots bereft of any independence and will. I think that's a flawed argument in of itself.The Malaika in my understanding are not all one kind, like Allah says He gives some 2 wings, 3 wings, 4 wings according to their positions and duties. Some arrange the matter, drive clouds and push winds, others protect and guard, others record your deeds, others are in charge of taking your soul at the time of death, others support you in your establishment of salat, others bring down inspiration of revelation, others fight as hosts against disbelievers and aid the believing armies, others manifest as human beings, warners. I think people try to generalize and say they are either corporeal beings or universal laws and forces but neither of those ideas alone encompass all of the traits of the Malaika we witness in the Quran
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Establishing the same as above a consensus on the Jinn. We must agree on whether they are agents, entities with independent wills as ourselves. If we find them to be independent beings an we know they had been created before man, then we can further investigate in the possibility of them having possibly dwelled on the earth or other above worlds before man.
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Janna is another topic for which much thought also should be given in order to better understand what is proposed in the OP.
Where was Adam told to dwell with his mate? I think it would be important to agree on whether Janna is in this dunya (beneath the lowest heaven/roof) or in the heavens above.
Some can interpret Janna to be a garden, perhaps an elevated garden.
Allah told the Angels He would place man on the earth.
We are told that the righteous will inherit the earth.
Could Janna then not be an elevated garden here on earth, nor the side of the valley of the mount where Moses so the fire and was told to remove his shoes or the same place where Ibrahim was shown the location of the House or a blessed secluded garden between and atop mountain ranges?
This would not deprive the command of Allah of logic
238 We said, "Go down from it all (of you), and when, comes to you from Me Guidance, then whoever follows My Guidance, no fear (will be) on them and not they will grieve."
Glory be to Allah. If you interpret Janna as garden then the idea of Janna being on this earth, does not deprive this ayyat of sense either
397
Waqaloo alhamdu lillahi allathee sadaqana waAAdahu waawrathana al-arda natabawwao mina aljannati haythu nashao faniAAma ajru alAAamileena
And they will say, "All praise (be) to Allah, Who has fulfilled for us His promise and has made us inherit the earth, we may settle (in) Paradise wherever we wish. So excellent (is the) reward (of) the workers."- Another important topic of course is the heavens. We must understand the construct of the worlds to get a better grasp of Janna and the possibility of understanding where Adam dwelt or if any agent dwelled on this earth before man (excluding the Malaika who arrange the matters). Allah tells us there are seven heavens one above the other. Stacked up on top of each other. Allah describes our lowest heaven as a roof. The roof of our world. If there are seven heavens/roofs over us, then there are six more worlds above us. This is mathematical unless you take seven to mean many which I doubt is the correct interpretation. Allah also tells us that He has created many of the likes of the earth
6512
Allah (is) He Who created seven heavens and of the earth, (the) like of them. Descends the command between them that you may know that Allah (is) on every thing All-Powerful. And that, Allah indeed, encompasses all things (in) knowledge.We can see from the above ayaah that the heavens are not just layers of clouds but contain earth like foundations. There are to the best of my current understanding at the least, six worlds above us, with likeness of the earth. Taking this understanding we may infer that perhaps Adam was still in a garden but somewhere in the higher worlds or heavens.
This would do away with Janna being on earth theory however require some more investigating on what the command of getting down entails if they are in the heavens.Yes so, pretty much if we study these topics in humility, through prayer and asking for God to increase us in knowledge we would definitely be closer to understanding God willing.
Salaam
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janna? is this in your opinion a return to the garden of eden spoken of in the book of genesis?
sorry to question just one person I'm a muslim and I'm just now asking questions about that.I wouldn't confidently compare anything with Genesis or the Bible in general.
Remember Genesis says God rested on the 7th day, while the Quran clearly states He established Himself on the Throne after the sixth moment/day/period. Allah tells us in the Quran that He does not slumber nor sleep.So will you exchange the bad for the good?
I take it to mean the same Garden where Adam was told to dwell in with his wife/mate/companion for a time after Iblis refused to submit to him.
The same place where they were told to get down from.I do not although know whether this place was in an abode near Allah or the blessed haraman/haven/Sanctuary that Allah has established for man on this earth.
Remember when the hypocrites said they were afraid to follow the believers because they would be swept from the land?
2857
And they say, "If we follow the guidance with you, we would be swept from our land." Have not We established for them a sanctuary secure, are brought to it fruits (of) all things, a provision from Us? But most of them (do) not know.2967
Do not they see that We have made a Sanctuary secure while are being taken away the people around them? Then do in the falsehood they believe and in (the) Favor (of) Allah they disbelieve?What is this Sanctuary from which all are safe from being taken away?
It must be here on earth.
Is it the same place Ibrahim and his son raised the foundations of the House and purified and cleaned?
Is it near the same place Moses had to take his sandals off because he was in a blessed spot?
Why is this valley sacred?
Is it near this inviolable sanctuary/haven? Or is it because the sign of the burning bush was a blessing?
Allah in fact says blessed is he who is at the fire. Is our Lord referring to Moses?1437
Our Lord! Indeed, I have settled (some) of my offsprings in a valley not with cultivation near Your Sacred House, our Lord! That they may establish the prayers. So make hearts of the men incline towards them, and provide them with the fruits so that they may be grateful.2012
Indeed, I Am your Lord, so remove your shoes. Indeed, you (are) in the valley the sacred (of) Tuwa.2830
But when he came (to) it, he was called from (the) side (of) the valley - the right in the place even, blessed, from the tree that, "O Musa! Indeed, I Am Allah, (the) Lord (of) the worlds.7916
When called him his Lord in the valley the sacred (of),We can gather that there is sacred valley and perhaps is it near a Sacred House and there is a Sanctuary established.
This may have nothing to do with Janna actually.
Because Paradise will be brought near see the Ayaahs below
5031
Waozlifati aljannatu lilmuttaqeena ghayra baAAeedin
And will be brought near the Paradise to the righteous, not far.8113
Wa-itha aljannatu ozlifat
And when Paradise is brought near,Notice how Janna is used here.
I still have a lot of studying to do but these are thoughts I had.If I had to conclude with an hypothesis, I would hypothesize Janna is above the regions of this world.
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I doubt Rabb rises on a throne too.
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True, but I am still confused. I checked some other verses where the mate is tagged as wife. Must look into it a little more.
Yes look at it, but I m not suprised at all, I am still dumbfounded before the amount of malecentric and other switching that has been done on the text of the Qur'an. It is really labourious to go through picking one by one all the jobs of "arrangements" or "rearrangements" of interpretrations and selecting of meanings that have been done on the Qur'an. I am still amazed that in spite of it all there has been still something left that is worth. THAT for me, is a real, ashtounding miracle. I would ever have suspected how far and how deep this rearranging job has gone, although I guess one should never be shocked. Human nature is really industrious when it comes to getting his or her fancies rather than what is intended by the good giver.
Salaam
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The difference it makes is that it says mate and it does not say wife.
The qur'an knows perfectly well how to say a wife and how to say a mate and every time it speaks of adam never says the word wife or husband but always, every single time, it says the word mate. So we do not know that adam was a male or a female but that it was the human being of that time and that human being existed with a mate, as couple, as two sexes.
Salaam
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Incest is prohibited due to biology. Clearly we do not know how humans are developed despite having the adam and eve story and whether at that moment incest is a primary concern in biology. Logically if we come from a single pool (scientific evidence DNA shows common ancestors), at the onset, the single pool would be concentrated thus incest or biological concerns are of minimum concern. But over time, the expansion of the pool through thousand of years would cause it to dilute thus the biological concerns have become larger considerations.
Example you've got 1 liter of honey and you add a spoonfool of salt. You mixed them up, but since its difficult to dissolved salt into honey evenly the presence of salt may not be noticeable. Now you break the honey to 100 parts. Evidently there will be some parts (of that 100) that will taste slightly saltier. So if incest is similar to this example, then the likelihood of getting salty honey is higher in the parts that are salty already. So to avoid that, you need to mix the salty honey to most unsalty honey to even it out.
You can observe in mixed race marriages, the offspring will look after the older gene in the couple, the offspring of causasian mixed with chinese will be more chinese than caucasian. But if the caucasian belong to an older/earlier gene, then the opposite will happen. The dominant gene is always the older gene in the split because it takes hold of the DNA at an earlier sequence. Younger gene of humans/races (the amount of dilution is greatest) may present surprises to the parents with offspring showing ancestral dominance - eg both parent are brown, offspring is fair.
The rule on incest is purely biological to avoid bad genes i.e salty honey!
Honey, you taste salty! Peace.
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Something came to my head just now. If there were already beings before civilized Adam, then incest couldn't have taken place. Even the second one known as mate or wife would not have mattered. If we take it as the civilized female...
Their children already had mates arranged from other beings.
I found another interesting verse relevant to "beings".
Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every moving creature, and directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason. 2164
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Incest is possible, but it increases the risk of birth defects even if you probably can make a whole family based on incest without complications.
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Salamun Alaikum.
The question of incest only arises if we take Adam as an individual human rather than the whole humanity. The story of our ancestors committing incest in order to re-produce is an ancient tale common to Christianity and Islam and probably other world religions as well. But as we know from The Qur'an the law or sunnatullah never changed so therefore the theory of incest is invalid, unless of course you believe that Allah amends his own laws? If we reflect on a Qur'an verse re Adam and his mate as individual beings, then why would Allah use a plural to order them to go down/to descent if it was only Adam and his mate? As Qur'an 338 tells us " We said "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve".
Peace
almarh0m
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Salamun Alaikum.
The question of incest only arises if we take Adam as an individual human rather than the whole humanity. The story of our ancestors committing incest in order to re-produce is an ancient tale common to Christianity and Islam and probably other world religions as well. But as we know from The Qur'an the law or sunnatullah never changed so therefore the theory of incest is invalid, unless of course you believe that Allah amends his own laws? If we reflect on a Qur'an verse re Adam and his mate as individual beings, then why would Allah use a plural to order them to go down/to descent if it was only Adam and his mate? As Qur'an 338 tells us " We said "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve".
Peace
almarh0m
Thaat seems quite right to me.
Salaam
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The mainstream understanding of the story of Adam and his wife is that they had children and their children then married each other and that is how humanity began.
This is not the case.
Adam and Eve begat Cain and Able. Cain slew Able. He found a wife beyond Eden. No incest was implied. -
This is not the case.
Adam and Eve begat Cain and Able. Cain slew Able. He found a wife beyond Eden. No incest was implied.I have not heard of this story before. So where exactly did this wife come from? Did she pop out of nowhere? Was she human?