Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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Wakas,
If you pretend to make Classical Arabic grammar conform to English Grammar than you are more mistaken than I thought. Grammar is not 11 from one language to another. What I can say is that the ba3duhum refers to the men and the ba3din refers to the women. From what I have seen in general the first al-ba3dh or ba3dh + possessive pronoun refers to the first group and the second indefinite ba3dh refers to the second group. Although, I am not sure how hard and fast this is, this has been my observation.
And your aggressive tone
"thus they will remain just that - claims - until proven otherwise."
is not appreciated. I can take but it is clear to me now that your agenda and comments clearly do not come out of a spirit of brotherhood. That is unfortunate. I hope your Crusade to make Islam acceptable to Modern Greco-Roman Western tastes, and your White-knighting proves worthwhile.http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=White+Knight
2nd definition.
Salaam
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I hope your Crusade to make Islam acceptable to Modern Greco-Roman Western tastes, and your White-knighting proves worthwhile.
Yes, as if women have it any better in countries ruled by Islamic sharia law.
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peace Anwar,
Thanks for the reply - perhaps now we are getting somewhere.
So it seems you take the masculine to refer to the women - and the phrase referring to two groups - men and women. But I wonder what is the Quranic evidence?
Ideally I'd like to see at least one comparable example of this in Quran
- wherein two distinct groups are referenced in such a manner
and/or (at the very least) - another example of the masculine "ba3dh" referring to female only.
158 occurrences of the root apparently - HERE
What if we cant find any to support your view?
And the above is just the grammar. What about the empirical evidence and logic?
Can a man be considered qawwamoon if he does not spend on the women yes/no?
I note you skipped answering this.Are all men qawwamoon of women, even if born with a condition rendering them unable to care for themselves, let alone work etc?
As soon as one realises the above and admits it cannot be all men, i.e. it is some, the phrasing in 434 can be appreciated.
- wherein two distinct groups are referenced in such a manner
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Wakas,
Can a man be considered qawwamoon if he does not spend on the women yes/no?
I note you skipped answering this.Are all men qawwamoon of women, even if born with a condition rendering them unable to care for themselves, let alone work etc
This is talking about a generalized role of men. Let's not start looking for exceptions to the rule. There will always be exceptional cases. When Allah tells the believers to pray, to bow and prostrate, we know that there will be believers who are physically incapable of that. We don't start speculating about how believers are really not supposed to pray, bow and prostrate.
Ba3dh may be masculine and singular but it can refer to feminine and plural people and things as well. To think that it can't is...well...not sensible, to be nice. Check those occurrences, I'm sure you will find a ba3dhuhunna (which is ba3dh being use for feminine), I believe I saw one the other day at corpus Quran when I did a search for uses of ba3dh in the Quran. Anyways, the 'ba3dhuhum' refers to the men in 434 and the second ba3dh refers to the women here because these were the two groups specified.
I think you get the point, Wakas. With that said, I don't have to comb the earth for a specific example that perfectly mirrors this case to satisfy your doubts. If I come across one I will be sure to let you know but I think I have done my job of answering your reasonable doubts and confusions. I don't have an agenda aside from obeying what the Qur'an says whether it goes along with what many believe to be the epitome of civilization in Modern Western tastes or not . I think reality and the Quran will show us the patriarchy is best. Not male oppression, not male chauvinism, not feminism, not female chauvinism, not blind belief in the sexes sharing all roles equally....but patriarchy and fulfilling our duties to Allah.
Salaam
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Great women examples
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nana_Asma%E2%80%99u
Salam
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Devil's Advocatism and Feminism have destroy the Ummah of the Qur'an.
I am not a sexist. However, I agree with you As-Salaatayn......NO OFFENCE SISTERS... ;D
Q;0343 - O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your LORD and PROSTRATE and KNEEL WITH THOSE WHO KNEEL.
Was Maryam told to prostrate and kneel with those who lead the congregational prayer or was she told to lead the congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
If it was the latter than why is she not leading the Israelites but her son considering the fact that she receives the message and not her son?
The Quran confirms....Q;04171 - O People of the Book, do not commit excess in your religion or say about ALLAH except the truth. The Messiah, Esa, the son of Maryam, was but a Messenger of ALLAH and HIS word which HE DIRECTED TO MARYAM and a spirit from HIM.
Salam
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(Reminder)
243 And hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification, and kneel with those who kneel.
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the station of Abraham, a place for making the contact. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
343 "O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel."
555 For your supporter are God and His messenger and those who believe; they hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification, and they kneel.
9112 They are the repenters, the worshipers, the thankful, the devout, the kneeling, the prostrating, the advocates of good and the prohibiters of vice, and the caretakers of the boundaries of God; and give good news to the believers.
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the House "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My House for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
2277 O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.
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We do not have to find which pronoun refers to men and which to women, because the pronoun used in the first b3dD refers to both antecedents, because it is a reciprocal clause, that is, whatever is attributed to the first antecedent as referring to the second is also attributed to the second antecedent as referred to the first.
ba3D(pronoun) ... ba3Din is a reciprocal clause, it is always a reciprocal clause, either by things being done to ech other by subjects within a group or things done to each other by two different subjects mentioned.
It is like in English
They love each other or X and Y love each other,to whom refers the each and to whom refers the other? It refers to all of them.
And yes there are plenty of examples in the Qur'an.
And the clause stating somethinnng about the riyal and the nisaa is a general statement that concern the subjects in general as what they are by virtue of their being what they are.
The translation "some" men is completely outside the Arabic language. And yes there are examples within the Qur'an and one very near and very clear
4.21.
4.21. And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Further
And what is set in this aya are not roles but functions.
Some men (and women) seem so obssessed with the men having some kind of special supperiority (they may deny the "superiority" word because nowadays it is politically uncorrect, but the meaning that women as such owe somethig as such othat than what they may owe each other equally is always there and not explained and women cotinue to be considered always not as basic set but as set with respect to men, as to their usefulness to men). But the only, ONLY one thing that
women that is not shared by men is in reproduction, and not in anything else. Men cannot get pregnant nort have the new human creatures develp withi their bodies, nor deliver babies nor suckle them. Women do, and that is not a role of women, that is a function of women.That is plenty of labour for women, which benefits, in fact gurantees, the continuation of the whole species. That men, if they share the same society as women, should do work on their part to balance the burden born by women, is logical, they must support women and they must take care of women because the species depends on the women, for furthering itself. If they, the men, want to share the same society, they must contribute with something. That is their function or if they prefer a role, call it role, it is what it is. But men cannot exact a contribution to them (the men) by the women, they (the men) must match women's contribution. God orders it, but women do not have a role, they have a function given by God through nature. It is not something women can reject and pass on to somebody else, they can relay on other WOMEN, but they cannot pass it on to men.
I cannot see why this is so difficult to see and to accept, as if saying that men are not the sun in the human universe was the end of men. It is so childish. God, obviously so stated many times in the Qur'an, wants a social human species in which women and men are friends and allies, not where one is the boss and the other the servant. So each one must fulfill the conditions for such a society.
Women do not have a right to support and care by men because they are pretty or becaquse they are unintelligent. They have a right to support and care by men because they guarantee with their reprodutive labour the continuation of the species. I guess that for certainmentalities that is not as important as providing the males with sex, domestic service, obedience and what not, but he fact is that God does not order women to provide any of that to any man or to men in general. Call the burden imposed by God on men a role or a function, suit yourself, but what you cll it does not change the content, but women's part is not a role but a function, a naturally appointed and unescapable function, and further than that God does not assign to the women any role at all, they are free, not an inch less free than men. And they do not owe men anything that the men themselves do not owe to them in turn, obviously beside the care and support.
All the resentment shown by some people when the statu quo is called into question, bitching about feminism and other ticks, is nto deserved by women at all.
Women have fulfilled their fucntion very well, proof is that human kind as a species is now uncountable. How many mammals can now boast such figures? But it is the male part with their obssession with being the centre of everything that has made all the problems with exacerbated commpetition and rivalry.
Obvioulsy there have always been good and meek men, who have followed the example of the prophets, but they have not been rewaarded with the acknowledgement given to the predator men.
Salaam
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Topic Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
Good questionWe cannot forbid what Allah has not forbidden. If something is explicitly forbidden
the Quran would state so. Therefore as per my understanding and to never have
found such a prohibition, a woman can lead the prayer and the congregation
can be mixed. We should not confuse culture and tradition with Islam.peace
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I am not a sexist. However, I agree with you As-Salaatayn......NO OFFENCE SISTERS... ;D
Q;0343 - O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your LORD and PROSTRATE and KNEEL WITH THOSE WHO KNEEL.
Was Maryam told to prostrate and kneel with those who lead the congregational prayer or was she told to lead the congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
If it was the latter than why is she not leading the Israelites but her son considering the fact that she receives the message and not her son?
The Quran confirms....Salam
She wasn't told perform any gymnastics to begin with. It defies logic that being "obedient" to the Rabb means to perform repetitive physical movements. With that illogical interpretation, paralyzed and physically deformed individuals are the most disobedient to the Rabb since they do not perform those physical movements.
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peace all,
Anwar,
I like to prove things as per Quran, hence my queries. My preference is to consider all options then opt for the strongest, based on the evidence. Not claim (or imply) there is only possible answer without citing any evidence.Huruf,
Thanks for the example of 421. I think that does show "ba3dh" could refer to female only.It seems to me it is a phrase which simply means "one/some over another", and it sometimes can refer to one or two distinct groups, but always a subsection of whomever is being discussed. In some examples in Quran, it does seem difficult to translate "ba3dh" as "each one" hence in the phrase "each one over another" as "each one" implies all of that group. It just doesn't fit. In fact when "ba3dh" is used on its own it frequently means "part", i.e. some.
Thus, the theoretical possibilities seem to be
434
"... some (of) them (men) over another (men)..."
"... some (of) them (men) over another (men/women)..."
"... each (of) them (men) over another (women)..."But I guess it doesn't really matter which one we choose, as Quran clarifies the scope of the "qawwamoon" (supporter/maintainer) role.
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Peace,
It is good that we have gone through this but I would still like to know why the question of leading prayer is even relevant, when the Quran DOES NOT state that prayer should be led in the first place! Once we know that, we know that the question hides true intent! A hunger for power and prestige, and envy of men.
Salaam.
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, and envy of men.
... or perhaps it is about being fed up with men systematically subduing and trodding on women.
Rather, men are unconsciously feeling insecure and therefore have to push women down.
Claiming women are envious just indicates ignorance about reality.And this is not just about religion.
Cheers
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... or perhaps it is about being fed up with men systematically subduing and trodding on women.
Rather, men are unconsciously feeling insecure and therefore have to push women down.
Claiming women are envious just indicates ignorance about reality.And this is not just about religion.
Cheers
You got it.
Salaam
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... or perhaps it is about being fed up with men systematically subduing and trodding on women.
Rather, men are unconsciously feeling insecure and therefore have to push women down.
Claiming women are envious just indicates ignorance about reality.And this is not just about religion.
Cheers
Uh...some men ) but I get your point handshake
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Uh...some men but I get your point handshake
Yes, Hawk, some men. And it is sad, because rather than envy
that type of men evoke pity for being so childish that they need to be alloted some "protagonism" in order to feel ackknowledged. There was a time when that kind of thing was accepted and women were ready to feign that acknowledgement, since anyway women were disadvantaged before the law and feigninnggave them fewer problems than not faeigning and they could manage the men better that way.Today however it is different and I personally find that faking and acknowledgement you do not feel is rather insulting for the person being humoured that way.
I would not like to be given that treatment.
Salaam
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She wasn't told perform any gymnastics to begin with. It defies logic that being "obedient" to the Rabb means to perform repetitive physical movements.
What repetitive movement? Its a continuous movement - KNEEL AND THAN PROSTRATE AND THATS IT, crosse reference with 04102
With that illogical interpretation, paralyzed and physically deformed individuals are the most disobedient to the Rabb since they do not perform those physical movements.
So what is the correct interpretation? Enlighten me please.
