Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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(Reminder)
243 And hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification, and kneel with those who kneel.
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the station of Abraham, a place for making the contact. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
343 "O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel."
555 For your supporter are God and His messenger and those who believe; they hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification, and they kneel.
9112 They are the repenters, the worshipers, the thankful, the devout, the kneeling, the prostrating, the advocates of good and the prohibiters of vice, and the caretakers of the boundaries of God; and give good news to the believers.
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the House "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My House for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
2277 O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.
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We do not have to find which pronoun refers to men and which to women, because the pronoun used in the first b3dD refers to both antecedents, because it is a reciprocal clause, that is, whatever is attributed to the first antecedent as referring to the second is also attributed to the second antecedent as referred to the first.
ba3D(pronoun) ... ba3Din is a reciprocal clause, it is always a reciprocal clause, either by things being done to ech other by subjects within a group or things done to each other by two different subjects mentioned.
It is like in English
They love each other or X and Y love each other,to whom refers the each and to whom refers the other? It refers to all of them.
And yes there are plenty of examples in the Qur'an.
And the clause stating somethinnng about the riyal and the nisaa is a general statement that concern the subjects in general as what they are by virtue of their being what they are.
The translation "some" men is completely outside the Arabic language. And yes there are examples within the Qur'an and one very near and very clear
4.21.
4.21. And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Further
And what is set in this aya are not roles but functions.
Some men (and women) seem so obssessed with the men having some kind of special supperiority (they may deny the "superiority" word because nowadays it is politically uncorrect, but the meaning that women as such owe somethig as such othat than what they may owe each other equally is always there and not explained and women cotinue to be considered always not as basic set but as set with respect to men, as to their usefulness to men). But the only, ONLY one thing that
women that is not shared by men is in reproduction, and not in anything else. Men cannot get pregnant nort have the new human creatures develp withi their bodies, nor deliver babies nor suckle them. Women do, and that is not a role of women, that is a function of women.That is plenty of labour for women, which benefits, in fact gurantees, the continuation of the whole species. That men, if they share the same society as women, should do work on their part to balance the burden born by women, is logical, they must support women and they must take care of women because the species depends on the women, for furthering itself. If they, the men, want to share the same society, they must contribute with something. That is their function or if they prefer a role, call it role, it is what it is. But men cannot exact a contribution to them (the men) by the women, they (the men) must match women's contribution. God orders it, but women do not have a role, they have a function given by God through nature. It is not something women can reject and pass on to somebody else, they can relay on other WOMEN, but they cannot pass it on to men.
I cannot see why this is so difficult to see and to accept, as if saying that men are not the sun in the human universe was the end of men. It is so childish. God, obviously so stated many times in the Qur'an, wants a social human species in which women and men are friends and allies, not where one is the boss and the other the servant. So each one must fulfill the conditions for such a society.
Women do not have a right to support and care by men because they are pretty or becaquse they are unintelligent. They have a right to support and care by men because they guarantee with their reprodutive labour the continuation of the species. I guess that for certainmentalities that is not as important as providing the males with sex, domestic service, obedience and what not, but he fact is that God does not order women to provide any of that to any man or to men in general. Call the burden imposed by God on men a role or a function, suit yourself, but what you cll it does not change the content, but women's part is not a role but a function, a naturally appointed and unescapable function, and further than that God does not assign to the women any role at all, they are free, not an inch less free than men. And they do not owe men anything that the men themselves do not owe to them in turn, obviously beside the care and support.
All the resentment shown by some people when the statu quo is called into question, bitching about feminism and other ticks, is nto deserved by women at all.
Women have fulfilled their fucntion very well, proof is that human kind as a species is now uncountable. How many mammals can now boast such figures? But it is the male part with their obssession with being the centre of everything that has made all the problems with exacerbated commpetition and rivalry.
Obvioulsy there have always been good and meek men, who have followed the example of the prophets, but they have not been rewaarded with the acknowledgement given to the predator men.
Salaam
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Topic Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
Good questionWe cannot forbid what Allah has not forbidden. If something is explicitly forbidden
the Quran would state so. Therefore as per my understanding and to never have
found such a prohibition, a woman can lead the prayer and the congregation
can be mixed. We should not confuse culture and tradition with Islam.peace
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I am not a sexist. However, I agree with you As-Salaatayn......NO OFFENCE SISTERS... ;D
Q;0343 - O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your LORD and PROSTRATE and KNEEL WITH THOSE WHO KNEEL.
Was Maryam told to prostrate and kneel with those who lead the congregational prayer or was she told to lead the congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
If it was the latter than why is she not leading the Israelites but her son considering the fact that she receives the message and not her son?
The Quran confirms....Salam
She wasn't told perform any gymnastics to begin with. It defies logic that being "obedient" to the Rabb means to perform repetitive physical movements. With that illogical interpretation, paralyzed and physically deformed individuals are the most disobedient to the Rabb since they do not perform those physical movements.
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peace all,
Anwar,
I like to prove things as per Quran, hence my queries. My preference is to consider all options then opt for the strongest, based on the evidence. Not claim (or imply) there is only possible answer without citing any evidence.Huruf,
Thanks for the example of 421. I think that does show "ba3dh" could refer to female only.It seems to me it is a phrase which simply means "one/some over another", and it sometimes can refer to one or two distinct groups, but always a subsection of whomever is being discussed. In some examples in Quran, it does seem difficult to translate "ba3dh" as "each one" hence in the phrase "each one over another" as "each one" implies all of that group. It just doesn't fit. In fact when "ba3dh" is used on its own it frequently means "part", i.e. some.
Thus, the theoretical possibilities seem to be
434
"... some (of) them (men) over another (men)..."
"... some (of) them (men) over another (men/women)..."
"... each (of) them (men) over another (women)..."But I guess it doesn't really matter which one we choose, as Quran clarifies the scope of the "qawwamoon" (supporter/maintainer) role.
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Peace,
It is good that we have gone through this but I would still like to know why the question of leading prayer is even relevant, when the Quran DOES NOT state that prayer should be led in the first place! Once we know that, we know that the question hides true intent! A hunger for power and prestige, and envy of men.
Salaam.
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, and envy of men.
... or perhaps it is about being fed up with men systematically subduing and trodding on women.
Rather, men are unconsciously feeling insecure and therefore have to push women down.
Claiming women are envious just indicates ignorance about reality.And this is not just about religion.
Cheers
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... or perhaps it is about being fed up with men systematically subduing and trodding on women.
Rather, men are unconsciously feeling insecure and therefore have to push women down.
Claiming women are envious just indicates ignorance about reality.And this is not just about religion.
Cheers
You got it.
Salaam
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... or perhaps it is about being fed up with men systematically subduing and trodding on women.
Rather, men are unconsciously feeling insecure and therefore have to push women down.
Claiming women are envious just indicates ignorance about reality.And this is not just about religion.
Cheers
Uh...some men ) but I get your point handshake
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Uh...some men but I get your point handshake
Yes, Hawk, some men. And it is sad, because rather than envy
that type of men evoke pity for being so childish that they need to be alloted some "protagonism" in order to feel ackknowledged. There was a time when that kind of thing was accepted and women were ready to feign that acknowledgement, since anyway women were disadvantaged before the law and feigninnggave them fewer problems than not faeigning and they could manage the men better that way.Today however it is different and I personally find that faking and acknowledgement you do not feel is rather insulting for the person being humoured that way.
I would not like to be given that treatment.
Salaam
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She wasn't told perform any gymnastics to begin with. It defies logic that being "obedient" to the Rabb means to perform repetitive physical movements.
What repetitive movement? Its a continuous movement - KNEEL AND THAN PROSTRATE AND THATS IT, crosse reference with 04102
With that illogical interpretation, paralyzed and physically deformed individuals are the most disobedient to the Rabb since they do not perform those physical movements.
So what is the correct interpretation? Enlighten me please.
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Too many, too easily...
True, One of the major problems among our ummah is the oppression
of women, the seriousness of this crime cannot be overstated. We
will not receive the blessings from Allah as a community until we cease
subjugating the believers (women) because oppression is worst than death.Our problem (men) is far more serious than any individual because we suffer
yes suffer from a collective cultural traditionalist revolt again Quran Kareem
Where Allah has not instructed our misogynistic behavior but we cling to "our
fathers did it this way" way of thinking. Not intending to be redundant@ Bender
Heartwarming and encouraging thanks
peace
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nope
The Eve inclination is real and so is White-knighting. Adam fell because he willfully and gladly went along with Eve. So, both fell and continue to fall. None of you will change the fact of this. You can only realize your roles and play them as best as you can.
Salaam.
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I think this is my last post in this thread and this what I have to say
Women are a protected class in all societies. The fact that women without family ties and familial protections are taken advantage of as equally as vulnerable men and that people see that as oppression of women while ignoring the plight of males proves that.
There is an important fact that you guys can double check, and then I will do my best to cease this futile conversation. More males are born in the world than females, yet there are more females in the world alive than males. Why? Because men bear the brunt of oppression, dangerous lives, deep poverty and economic exploitation to protect the women in their lives. Hence, they die at a much higher rate than women despite being born more. And women expect us to bend over backwards for them in all ways and we gladly do it in spite of reality and even what God wants from us. And this attitude continues even among the males in forums like these who, through studying Allah's word and being thinking beings, should know better. I'm done. For me, they can take that bottomless pit of ambition and envy of what they see as the strength and power of men with their simultaneous cries of being protected at all costs somewhere else. Maybe if I were 16 and hadn't lived life I would believe it. In fact, I did believe it at one time. Now, that I know better what I do know is that we all have roles to play, as genders and as individuals, to serve Allah and better humanity, let's play them with humility and sacrifice.
Sorry for the harsh dose of what I see as reality. If i am mistaken may Allah guide me and forgive me.
Salaam -
In fact the birth ratio male versus female is quite even, al-salataayn.
And both have their strengths and weaknesses and it is best that man and woman get together and become as one body. It is wisest to have two leaders; one man and one woman for every position, one king and one queen, so to say. Women can come with input which men have difficulty to bring forth and the same with men.
If it is not like this then the society is either patriarchal or matriarchal. It is usually patriarchal as men can easily oppress. But this is not beneficial to them. It will hamper spiritual development.
The bodily programming may be aligned so that the male is dominant, but this is misleading and he must follow his spiritual calling. It is a matter of not being the beast.
Be safe
Amenuel -
, let's play them with humility and sacrifice.
The problem is when the roles include misogynism and bullying. This is what we are getting at. I don't understand why some men start bringing up "different roles" when women complain about being bullied. Of course men and women have different roles. But if someone thinks that the role of women includes being bullied, then think again. It is typically religious people who assume a defensive position when this topic comes up. Actually, such men have nothing to add, and are usually weaker in society than most women. Therefor they insist the women should be kept under lock and key, bullied, and stripped of any fair opportunities to serve society... and under the excuse of "different roles". Well, this is not at all about different roles. Let's not change the topic.
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Regarding different roles.
It seems that men generally have had external roles. Kill the deer. Fetch the fish. Defend against intruder.
All due to physical strength.Women are able to give birth. In this ability lies tremendous value. For a man to be valuable, he must do all sorts of material and external things.
To feel of value, women only need to give birth and raise the children. This is of utmost importance to society. To feel of value, men on the other hand, have to work, since there is no other way to serve.
One can imagine that when men see that women start taking on duties that men traditionally did, they start feeling insecure (unconsciously ofcourse). Perhaps they feel they've lost their Unique Selling Point. Hence the defensive and conservative attitude. This is also when Holy Books are brought into the picture to justify conservative practices. No, God didn't instruct us that women should be bullied and given less salary for the same job.
