Reason and belief
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... When the body is no longer a distraction then the Spirit resting within them can grow. ...
I would like to add something here, or highlight.
Inclusive in "the body" is also our mind. I'm not talking about spirit or soul, but rather mind... or perhaps the contents of our mind. We need to speak of the mind aswell in open words for at least two reasons.
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The body, our flesh and bodily experiences, and the whole physical and sensational world, is perceived through our five senses and we interpret them and the react to these impressions and sensory inputs by way of our thinking habits. This is key. Our way of thinking determines how we perceive the physical world. How we react to the world comes out as emotions, which in turn affect our body and mind. It's in some ways a feedback loop.
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To relate in a different way to our body and the physical world, we need to act through our mind. We can stop reacting automatically, and start taking charge of our life. Forgetting the role and position of the mind in our life, makes our attempts at improvements and change futile and doomed.
Therefore, body and thoughts are both physical things, in the sense that they are something other than Spirit.
Peace -
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Exactly, what the mind is influenced by we must reflect upon, if it is the body with its instinct or your superior Spirit which is the real you.
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Greetings sturtlaghari,
I can sort of understand how you feel. You are confronted with a partly unknown world (Islam). You are open minded, curious and relaxed, however also cautious and sensible.
These are my advice
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Decide whether or not you are ready to play part of a drama just to make others happy. Are you willing to "accept Islam" just to make people happy? I don't think so, and you know it. I find it foolish andf naive to accept a religion wholesale just because people swear it is the truth.
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You may declare the shahada in front of some authority in order to get a paper, that's ok. That's not dishonesty. You would just be letting them hear what they want to hear to get them off your back. Such authority is not part of your life anyway and you have no real responsibility in front of them anyway. Spiritual matter cannot be regulated by self proclaimed authorities no matter how official they seem to be.
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Regarding the sects, sunni, shia etc, they will all welcome you fully and warmly, as long as you do as they do. If you don't, you're worth no more than crap on the side walk to them. Sect members are not into humanity. Humanity is not a sect. To be part of a sect you must by definition shut down part of your brain and sell your soul to them. Don't.
Wish you best of luck. Go with your heart and your gut feeling. Don't succumb to fear. Don't fall for the sweet talking preachers.
Peace -
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And, I feel that they tend to be extremely doctrinal and totally inflexible about the Sunnah, or Hadiths. I am, frankly, uncomfortable with them because the seem to require that become a believer I must behave robotically, in accordance with their doctrinal strictures; this, of course, is paradoxical, inasmuch as Islam, I am told, encourages and even insists that people use their faculty of reason to the full.
Yes you are encouraged to use your reason to SUPPORT the doctrine.
Doctrine first.. reason came after that..It is my feeling that, in my personal humility, I can never feel that I am understanding of all -- especially not of Allah/God, Who is, I think, beyond human ken. And I must be honest in saying that my reasoning does not succeed in reconciling, on the one hand, the concept of God/Allah being the all-knowing predeterminer of good and evil alike, and, on the other hand, free will, which, we are told, is to determine for a person a fate either of heaven or hell. How, I must ask, can a person be held responsible for what was predetermined by his Maker? How can a loving God predetermine eternal hellfire for his creation, a human being? If I believe in a loving God, which must be the foundation of any religious concepts I adopt, then I cannot believe there is a hell. This is what reason, presumably endowed by God, tells me!
Yes that doesn't make sense isn't it?
Trust your conscience, keep the humble attitude and continue to questioned further.. you will soon arrived at an answer.. given by God..So, I am somewhat doubtful about the possibility of eventually becoming a recognized Muslim, although I am told that heartfelt utterance of the Shahada, an expression made to Allah alone, in itself will make me a Muslim. After that, however, are the various obligations of structured worship and rituals recognized by different Islamic theological schools -- all great unknowns to me. I fear that I might be considered a "failed-attempt" convert to Islam, if I am not allowed a large measure of residual mysticism and mystery in my personal relationship with Allah.
If I am one day to marry the Malaysian lady, as we both hope for marriage, I first will have to satisfy the Malaysian religious authorities that I am a convert to Islam, according to their standards, which I do not fully understand, but no doubt requires some kind of credential from recognized authority. I'm not at all sure that a Quranic organization would be recognized by the Malaysian religious authorities who operate in tandem with the government. I simply don't know. At such time as I am able to express the Shahada from my heart and mind both, I don't know then how to acquire such document. The lady herself says that she already considers me "a believer", from our heartfelt conversations on divinity and belief.
I will be very grateful for you advice and guidance.
My advice, if you really want to marry this lady, go.. recite the Shahada... make her and her family happy...
Don't worry about the structured worship and complex ritual, you can always skip it afterwards if you don't feel like doing it...
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If I am one day to marry the Malaysian lady, as we both hope for marriage, I first will have to satisfy the Malaysian religious authorities that I am a convert to Islam, according to their standards, which I do not fully understand, but no doubt requires some kind of credential from recognized authority.
Ask them what if after saying the so called shahada and doing all those rituals you don't feel Muslim inside? Won't that mean they are forcing you to deceive?
And I must be honest in saying that my reasoning does not succeed in reconciling, on the one hand, the concept of God/Allah being the all-knowing predeterminer of good and evil alike, and, on the other hand, free will, which, we are told, is to determine for a person a fate either of heaven or hell. How, I must ask, can a person be held responsible for what was predetermined by his Maker? How can a loving God predetermine eternal hellfire for his creation, a human being? If I believe in a loving God, which must be the foundation of any religious concepts I adopt, then I cannot believe there is a hell. This is what reason, presumably endowed by God, tells me!
Your honesty is applaudable. Yeah, the simple words are not so easy for us to understand simply because we haven't progressed much in science. This world has so much mystery... You can check this out http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608077.msg380402#msg380402 and begin your search for truth. Remain open to rationality. It is not constant. The more we learn the more it evolves.
The Islamic Center is, apparently, strictly Hanafi (and Maliki?) Sunni. I have asked these people if mystery and mysticism are acceptable in a convert to Islam, but they seem to equivocate. And, I feel that they tend to be extremely doctrinal and totally inflexible about the Sunnah, or Hadiths. I am, frankly, uncomfortable with them because the seem to require that become a believer I must behave robotically, in accordance with their doctrinal strictures; this, of course, is paradoxical, inasmuch as Islam, I am told, encourages and even insists that people use their faculty of reason to the full.
Oh yes, it is compulsory to not question human gods. Otherwise, how on earth will they make you worst of the living creatures with inability to reason?
Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. 822
But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their REASON at all, and were devoid of all guidance?217Those schools are interested in making you Arab instead of Muslim. Here are some great things about the scholars and hadiths you are not allowed to question
The Criticism of Hadith
Hadiths Are Fake -
I am grateful to all who have generously responded here. Thank you!
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How I react is also something that happens to me. You make a false distinction.
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How I react is also something that happens to me. You make a false distinction.
The falsehood is that which you speak and what you assume unknowingly.
If you don't understand ask for clarification.
Did you not come seeking counsel?
Then when an answer is given to you, you dismiss it as falsehood, when its interpretation has not reached you?Furthermore you have no firm grasp in the Book yet..
And you make assumptions about Allah without knowledge?It is my feeling that, in my personal humility, I can never feel that I am understanding of all -- especially not of Allah/God, Who is, I think, beyond human ken. And I must be honest in saying that my reasoning does not succeed in reconciling, on the one hand, the concept of God/Allah being the all-knowing predeterminer of good and evil alike, and, on the other hand, free will, which, we are told, is to determine for a person a fate either of heaven or hell. How, I must ask, can a person be held responsible for what was predetermined by his Maker? How can a loving God predetermine eternal hellfire for his creation, a human being? If I believe in a loving God, which must be the foundation of any religious concepts I adopt, then I cannot believe there is a hell. This is what reason, presumably endowed by God, tells me!
Doubt is not the best way to start, if you truly want to submit that is.
The shadada will not cover what's in your heart
When the main reason why you are even considering becoming a Muslim is to marry a woman
Is that not your primary interest?This woman told you she's a Quranic and then urges you to familiarize with a local Islamic community?
Does not add up.
She would urge you to study that Book and seek guidance from Allah alone instead of traditionalists that are bent on dividing themselves into sects and are blameworthy of oppressive mentality.
Someone who considered themselves Quranic would never truly urge you to seek counsel from a traditionalist community, because they would know most of them follow everything but the Quran(Ahadith and Sunna)
So perhaps you are now here for a reason
So don't just hear but listen closely and do not reject
Don't just look at me, but see meYou have the free will to do whatever you will, but your Creator is the Absolute Supreme and He knows whatever you will do,
This does not mean that your actions and how you respond to your conditions is set in stone, you can choose whatever
Just like you can choose to submit or rebel, Allah already knows, He is the All-Knower yet He is the Most Gracious , Most Merciful, the Perpetual Giver, even so that Ge will give you your whole lifetime to redeem yourself and do right and believe.5722-23
Not strikes any disaster in the earth and not in yourselves, but in a Register before that We bring it into existence. Indeed, that for Allah (is) easy.
So that you may not grieve over what has escaped you, and (do) not exult at what He has given you. And Allah (does) not love every self-deluded boaster,That is in response to the underlined in bold.
You can grieve over what befalls you or exult over what happens for you, or you can choose to remain patient over all that befalls you.
Please you are the one who brought up free will so do not be foolish and pretend now that you don't understand that your reaction to things, your actions are all part of free-will, you actively choose to respond in whichever way you feel. That does not "happen to you", rather you make it happen.
Stop concealing. Some disbelievers conceal the truth they see in the Signs(Verses) and some hypocrites conceal their disbelief in the Signs(Verses)of Allah. Shun it all the mysticism and doubt and submit to Allah if you will and Read the Book.4140 Indeed, those who distort Our Verses (are) not hidden from Us. So, is (he) who is cast in the Fire better or (he) who comes secure (on the) Day (of) Resurrection? Do what you will. Indeed, He of what you do (is) All-Seer.
Finally in response to the red. I cannot even stress how many Signs in the Quran warn about the punishment of Hell. It is real.
Listen this life is a test, you either succeed or fail.
The way you phrase your statement is already of concern there is no such thing as " a loving God"
There is only One God, All the Most Beautiful Attributes belong to Him.
Why don't you attribute grandeur to Allah?
Indeed you were right about you not understanding He is High Above what you associate with Him!
He is the All-Loving, All-Benevolent, All-Beneficient, All-Kind, All-Powerful, All-Mighty, simultaneously the Severest in Punishment.Read the Book seeking His guidance first then make your opinions
Peace
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So the first principle of Islam is the rejection of all gods, all false attributions. It is the Anti-God religion. It is the War against the "Gods".
Every day, the Muslims raise up their finger and make a declaration of War against the Gods to purify themselves of falsehood.
We can start there. Please don't be shy to ask me anything you might want to. I know the arrogance of people can lead them to not really share any real question they may have and instead turn to mockery or something else instead, which is only a wasted opportunity for you.
- Rejection of All Gods/Powers (the Iconoclasm) until you reach the Ultimate conclusion (the process that Ibrahim is described as going through in his stories)
- Acknowledgment of Only the Ultimate (but it needs the right definition and understanding)
- The Qur'an does not matter, if it says something wrong, then those statements are to be rejected, this religion goes beyond all the scriptures, luckily the Qur'an doesn't actually say anything wrong, people just interpret it in different ways, when one's MIND IS SET RIGHT FIRST that is what makes the difference. That is why the Qur'an is "for the believers" those who already have the right mindset. Allah misguides those with their minds set on wrong ideas, they can then find in the Qur'an that God is a man or any number of stupid ideas they want to make.
- Right channeling of everything, including things like hate, anger, and fear.
- Utilization of as much as possible towards good ends, even idols and the various "signs and symbols" towards good reminders and meanings whenever they become present, this is having one's mind set on seeing things with insight and in a meditative way. Just like the Qur'an, the very same symbols and signs can be involved with false and misleading thoughts for some people.
What is Islam all about? Islam should be all about being right. To do what is best of all and get what is best of all and be what is best of all.
There should be no blind faith, and everything should have clear and well reasoned justifications and reasoning backing it up strongly.
What is logically necessary is all that we should comprehend as true, and we should not believe much in the transitory things which don't matter too much anyway except for as far as they might help us in making decisions pertaining to life and other strategies.
Islam is not a very complex religion at all, and neither is plain logic and common sense very difficult, except that people perhaps lack patience to follow through with the thoughts to their absolute ends. Often, things make sense to people the way things make sense in dreams, and upon awakening, those things are realized as clearly dreamy hallucinations, illusions with only the chemical of acceptance behind them."
"Good questions.
The Shahada can be false in what people imagine, or they can deal with it in an honest understanding. It is an affirmation of the basic creed of Islam and its underlying core, which is the rejection of all Gods/Powers other than the Ultimate, and then added to it also was that Muhammed is the slave and messenger of Allah. None of the statements are false if understood correctly. It can be considered an affirmation and meditation on the essential truths
- There is no power whatsoever other than Allah.
- What is the Ultimate and Only Power is what is being called Allah, it is not supposed to be anything that people imagine, but is unlike everything. Everything is information, it is not information, it can only ever be One.
- The one that the Qur'an is attributed to is known as Muhammed, regardless if he told the truth or lies, like all that exists, he was a slave and a messenger of Allah.
If someone is imagining their cousin Muhammed Jameel that is not what the creed is about, that is their own imagination. It is merely a tool, like the whole performance of the prayer.
People doubt why they should mention Muhammed, because they are associating things with Muhammed or in their imagination, and it works to expose their doubts concerning him or his existence.
The Qur'an exists, its a book, the one who brought the book is generally known as Muhammed. Whoever brought the book, called Muhammed, was a slave like we are all slaves, and a messenger of Allah, even the most foul mouthed liars are servants and messengers of Allah, no sacrifice is being made in these statements, except the Qur'an speaks the truth, and Muhammed is the one said to have brought it, so we are also affirming that we believe in the Qur'an, that it is a message of Allah, which again is true, even if it were all lies from top to bottom, again no sacrifices are being made in these statements.
It is a full statement and meditation against shirk, and mentioning that Muhammed is merely a slave and messenger like any other is not a glorification of Muhammed, but reminding people what he is, not a God, not a Savior, but a Slave who brought a Message, the Message was the Qur'an, it doesn't matter what the Qur'an says, it is just that is what he was, a slave who brought a message and thus a messenger."
"Good question! It is assumed by many people the one the Muslims call Ibrahim was a semitic language speaker. I have no certain knowledge what language he spoke or what word he used. The Qur'an describes something which has taken on the word Islam these days and is generally said to mean "Surrender".
I give it the longer definition at times, due to some of the common meanings associated with the root word and other implications "realizing peace/relief/healing by complete and utter surrender/submission/acknowledgment of the Truth/Reality (which is that Allah is the only power and cause of everything, the one to fear and the one we rely on willingly or unwillingly always)".
If anyone in the past had such an understanding, I don't know. If Ibrahim existed or how he existed or what he believed, I don't know. The Mormons for example rudely make a Book of the statements of Abraham and he is constantly talking about "Gods" and the Bible makes him out to be what seems to be a lying pimp. I eschew those things, and I prefer what the Qur'an depicts, the truth of which is moreover in its utility than in its history, the history of which matters little to me compared to its uses for our benefit."
"Now you may notice "peace/relief/healing" was mentioned, as the result of coming to terms with some sort of "truth" generally accepted to be concerning the nature of the Ultimate Reality, that is, what I call God.
From The Terrible Temple of FreedomStands http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607788.0
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I am grateful to all who have generously responded here. Thank you!
You are welcome )
Faruk,
You are quite daring that you actually read entire posts of Freedomstands D That said, he was very lively. But there are things he didn't mention in this post of his and that would leave any new interested person confused.Every day, the Muslims raise up their finger and make a declaration of War against the Gods to purify themselves of falsehood.
I don't think we are at war against Gods. We are just accepting there is only One. Saying declaration of War against the Gods asserts that we won't let anyone worship their respective Gods.
- Rejection of All Gods/Powers (the Iconoclasm) until you reach the Ultimate conclusion (the process that Ibrahim is described as going through in his stories)
This one assumes that we first became atheist and then chose the One.
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The Qur'an does not matter, if it says something wrong, then those statements are to be rejected, this religion goes beyond all the scriptures, luckily the Qur'an doesn't actually say anything wrong, people just interpret it in different ways, when one's MIND IS SET RIGHT FIRST that is what makes the difference. That is why the Qur'an is "for the believers" those who already have the right mindset. Allah misguides those with their minds set on wrong ideas, they can then find in the Qur'an that God is a man or any number of stupid ideas they want to make.
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Right channeling of everything, including things like hate, anger, and fear
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Utilization of as much as possible towards good ends, even idols and the various "signs and symbols" towards good reminders and meanings whenever they become present, this is having one's mind set on seeing things with insight and in a meditative way. Just like the Qur'an, the very same symbols and signs can be involved with false and misleading thoughts for some people.
He knew how to set the tone for sure. First shock the readers and then unlock the mystery. He is right here. I feel thankful to Allah that he gives us the freedom to express and be individuals.
It is a full statement and meditation against shirk, and mentioning that Muhammed is merely a slave and messenger like any other is not a glorification of Muhammed, but reminding people what he is, not a God, not a Savior, but a Slave who brought a Message, the Message was the Qur'an, it doesn't matter what the Qur'an says, it is just that is what he was, a slave who brought a message and thus a messenger."
That's the mainstream view. They all tell us that they don't worship Muhammad. But eating like him, following his fashion, etc are not so different from how a little monster follows Lady Gaga out of admiration. And yes, now Gaga does call herself Goddess and her position is not wrong. And it seems corruptions begin as soon as a human or statue is picked to be the focus of the religion. Have you seen an unusual change taking place in the mainstream Islam? People are slowly replacing Allah with Muhammad. I mean it is no more about what God tells us to do. It is just all about the Prophet. Even Miss Malala in her nobel prize speech was all over Muhammad instead of Allah. Same thing was seen in the mosque leaders who served tea and cookies to EDL. They went something like "what prophet would do in this situation".
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You are welcome
Faruk,
You are quite daring that you actually read entire posts of Freedomstands D That said, he was very lively. But there are things he didn't mention in this post of his and that would leave any new interested person confused.Salam. Yes I read all his posts. I found it interesting and eye opening. Not to be confused , you have to read all his posts. I miss him.
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Dear Mr. HP_TECH,Peace,
In reply to a member on this forum,(let me cal him "A"
you said ,"read the
book first for his guidance, and then give your opinion"
OK,are you suggesting that "A" has never read the book?Please do reply so that small fries like me may understand you and islam.
Next you wrote that read the Book for guidance,well why you needed to say so,every body is doing it so,but there is a point of insult to fellow "A" that he has not read the book hence has no guidance from Allah.Well if you are correct then I am sure ,that you have read the Book and have received the guidance from Allah..!! Well if so,would you please like to share with us that how or what guidance you received,or who guided you,did u receive some information in dream,or heard a voice out of no where,or did u received a piece of paperwith some guidance written on it,or u just got inspired by Allah..???
you said about "A" that perhaps he not reading the book..!! well but how do you determine this??how do you dteremine that which member is guided or not.?
you said "A" should not give his opinion if he has not read the book and received guidance , well if so dont u know that many members of this forum are not muslims,even if muslims ,hve not read the book fully,even if read the book have not understood it fully ,like u have, and might not have received guidance ,like u have,.U have made a fun of "A" (I am trying to hide his name from being dishonored /ashamed) -
Dear Mr. HP_TECH,Peace,
In reply to a member on this forum,(let me cal him "A"
you said ,"read the
book first for his guidance, and then give your opinion"Read the Book seeking His guidance first then make your opinions
Would you start giving your opinions about a Book when you haven't finished it? If so, I repeat the same to you as well.
It is a perfectly sound advice.OK,are you suggesting that "A" has never read the book?Please do reply so that small fries like me may understand you and islam.
Are you kidding me? Read the entire Original Post again. I have never conveyed anyone is a small fry
my reasoning does not succeed in reconciling, on the one hand, the concept of God/Allah being the all-knowing predeterminer of good and evil alike, and, on the other hand, free will, which, we are told, is to determine for a person a fate either of heaven or hell. How, I must ask, can a person be held responsible for what was predetermined by his Maker? How can a loving God predetermine eternal hellfire for his creation, a human being? If I believe in a loving God, which must be the foundation of any religious concepts I adopt, then I cannot believe there is a hell. This is what reason, presumably endowed by God, tells me!
Can someone who is on guidance from His Lord by reading the Quran, deny Hell? That is in fact opposite The rejecters destined for Hell deny it and the meeting with Allah.
Can someone who has read the entire Book earnestly have any doubts about Allah and be guided?The OP also asked if mystery and mysticism have a place in Islam. Does someone who asks such a question have firm grasp of what is in the Quran?
Does someone who is firm on Quran, get told by a woman is interested in marrying that she is a Quranist and then get suckered into seeking help from traditionalists and sectarians at the local mosque?
Do not ask foolish questions marifhaq.
Running to the defense of the doubter, instead of the one firm on faith, who directs to Allah and His Book?
Next you wrote that read the Book for guidance,well why you needed to say so,every body is doing it so,but there is a point of insult to fellow "A" that he has not read the book hence has no guidance from Allah.
It is conveyed in the OP in my opinion a desire to assimilate with Muslim culture to acquire marriage relationship, not the desire to truly understand Islam as in the Quran.
That is why he went to a local mosque. Instead of seeking Allah through the Reading.
Can someone who is on guidance from His Lord by reading the Quran, deny Hell? That is in fact opposite The rejecters destined for Hell deny it and the meeting with Allah.
Can someone who has read the entire Book earnestly have any doubts about Allah and be guided?Well if you are correct then I am sure ,that you have read the Book and have received the guidance from Allah..!!
I follow the guidance of Allah in His Book! Not He is unkind to me in my supplication to Him!
Well if so,would you please like to share with us that how or what guidance you received,or who guided you,did u receive some information in dream,or heard a voice out of no where,or did u received a piece of paperwith some guidance written on it,or u just got inspired by Allah..???
Go back behind you and seek light!
you said about "A" that perhaps he not reading the book..!! well but how do you determine this??how do you dteremine that which member is guided or not.?
By everything he conveyed in his post. Deductive reasoning. Give it another read and suppress your anger.
you said "A" should not give his opinion if he has not read the book and received guidance , well if so dont u know that many members of this forum are not muslims,even if muslims ,hve not read the book fully,even if read the book have not understood it fully ,like u have, and might not have received guidance ,like u have,.
4035 Those who dispute concerning the Signs of Allah without any authority having come to them, it is greatly hateful in the sight of Allah and in the sight of those who believe. Thus Allah sets a seal over the heart of every arrogant, tyrant.?
U have made a fun of "A" (I am trying to hide his name from being dishonored /ashamed)
No indeed you were mocking me
Well if you are correct then I am sure ,that you have read the Book and have received the guidance from Allah..!! Well if so,would you please like to share with us that how or what guidance you received,or who guided you,did u receive some information in dream,or heard a voice out of no where,or did u received a piece of paperwith some guidance written on it,or u just got inspired by Allah..???
Evil is what your faith calls you to if you are a believer
And of who do you come in defense of, the firm believer or the doubter?
Was your help asked for?
Did the OP not ask for advice and then brushed off my sincerest advice when it did not suit him?
Who are you here to support, the firm believer or the one who is unsure of Allah and seeks to conform to gain a mere marital relationship?
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HP_TECH, You dodged his questions for your rant about denying Hell while he asked sound questions you did not answer wisely.
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HP_TECH, You dodged his questions for your rant about denying Hell while he asked sound questions you did not answer wisely.
Exactly what I said you come up with two liners, because you are angry about my response to you in another posts. You never answered any of my questions there. You rather dodged all my questions. Go and answer them, then tell me which questions I have dodged if you are truthful.