Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited
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Dear Arman,
If those atheists can not see that there is such a thing that creates the universe, then to hell is their destination. No need to make an excuse for them. Doing good for the sake of goodness while clearly denying the existence of God as creator is bad.
personified or not is not a big thing. The big thing is whether they believe God's existence and characteristics or not. But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure
Salam alihawa.
You are entitled to have your opinion.
I guess the only question to which you would expect my response is ?But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure.?
I am not so sure, though. Yes, those who are misled in their thinking are misled for their own peril. It is indeed their problem. But in some ways it is also our problem. Our problem is how we define our attitude and our behavior towards them.
If one subscribes to extemist ideologies (ISIL and gong) ? people who are misled in their thinking about God create ?opportunity? for the so called ?Muslims? to take their daughters as slaves and take their wealth as war-booty. IT IS OUR PROBLEM to decide whether Qur?an really tells that all who do not ?BELIEVE? in God are kafirs and thereby at constant war with Muslims, or otherwise. We as a community need to sort out this problem first before we preach others about religious tolerance and diversity. And that is why it is so fundamental to understand what is ?Faith? ? is it believing in some dogmas or is it acceptance of some principles. To me it is clearly the second. Hope you find your own answer, soon.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
Shalom Aleikhem,
@Arman An interesting post and perspective indeed. I'd like to know further about your thoughts on the issue.
Peace.
Just in case you are not relating... we did have a long discussion on these understandings here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607279.msg364854#msg364854
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To me Faith (Iman) is a moral obligation of acceptance of certain principles. It is the moral obligation to accept that everything that exists in this universe exists upon a common platform and hence we must be "righteous" towards others. Otherwise we are violating our obligation to that "Commonness".
To me Faith is NOT an "intellectual obligation" to believe in a dogma/theory.
When "atheism" is strictly the result of an intellectual pursuit.. based on an objective scrutiny of the observable universe, such intellectual conclusion can coexist with the moral obligation of FAITH. But those to whom atheism is more than an intellectual conclusion, rather it is the cherished license to contravene the moral obligation of acting righteously, a license to silence the conscience as and when needed - such an atheism is indeed tantamount to faith repression (kufr). They are those ones, it doesn't matter you warn them or don't, they won't have faith.
For you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Regards,
Arman -
The heavens, the earth, the luminaries ... andor our existence cannot be explained without G-D, The Transcendent Creator/Appointer/Lawmaker. The Owner of us.
In order to sustain the belief that no G-D exists, Atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge. Because their declaration is tantamount to saying "I have infinite knowledge that no one with infinite knowledge exists" !
http//www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/6/6c/Raphael.jpg/200px-Raphael.jpg
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Assalamu Alaykum all,
I just thought I would post this video clip for anyone who hasn't seen it. Here are two sheikhs from the Gulf debating this exact question, and the answer may surprise you.
Can Atheists Go To Heaven In Islam? A Surprising Answer!
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8Salaam
Clash.
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2246
http//fecdn.fractalenlighten.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/eyes-are-useless-when-the-mind-is-blind.jpg
Bias bred from Hatred
= Blindness
Shalom Aleikhem,
Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!
May peace be with you
----------------------------- Student of Allah
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Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong
when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away !
Like e.g., here /Why bother then ?!?
Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? plz don't lie against me !
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Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away ! E.g., here.
Why bother then ?!?
Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? Don't lie /
I did not run away. You have to realize that I don't hang around this forum as much as I used to. Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true? Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything. I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape. Not to mention that all the interlocking mathematical models we have of planets (including earth) will have to be discarded despite them having predictive power. (best of luck trying to convince people to throw away all that working model too )
I ask you questions and you answer with things like
"and why would that be?"
You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work? The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?
It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true. None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal. It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize.
P.S. Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.
------------ Student of Allah
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I apologize to the creator of the tread for the off topic rant. D Will try not to do that agian.
-------- Student of Allah
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I did not run away.
If you say so !
Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true?
You mean the bulk of misinfo, acquired through indoctrination.
Aye, to accept that Earth is in fact planate (instead of rotund) one has to stop erroneously appealing to the majority and throw away that which they forced down his/her throat during childhood/gullibility, to realize - through independent, objective enquiry - that his/her inherited "spinning/whirling ball" bubble has no basis in Reality.
Real eyes, realize, real lies.
Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything.
Your "theories" can't prove Earth's alleged motions !
Why contradict the truth and believe that Earth moves, then ?!
I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape.
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There's no such a thing as "gravity" on Earth ~ Try Density.
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What makes you think Earth is a so-called "planet" ?! <- this is an assumption ! A preconceived notion.
I ask you questions and you answer with things like
"and why would that be?"
Contextomy !
You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work?
Disregard everything we know ?! ? Nop !
Only Falsehood (aka. PSEUDO-science)
The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?
Equations mean nothing if they can't represent Reality.
It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true.
You need to differentiate between theories and facts.
None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal.
I presented you with a clear and stable RAW footage (with a rectilinear lens) showing the FLAT earth from a high-altitude of 120,000 ft, along with a scientific paper by the leading Optical Society of America, testifying that the required elevation for discerning earth's alleged curvature is somewhat between 14,000 and 35,000 ft high !
You couldn't even address this one single argument /
Whatever happened to your "equations" !
It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize.
Meaningless words.
Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.
I didn't say that ALL people have useless eyes !
Just those with a blind mind.Salute.
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This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
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This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
Thanks for the compliments sister, but my post was never meant to encourage anyone to non-belief. My only contention was as believers in Qur?an how should we view or deal with the people who do not believe in God or a personified God. And my conclusion was that ? as long as they come to us in peace ? we are not authorized to question their faith (iman) because faith (Iman) is supposed to operate at a moral level, not an intellectual level. But unlike you I continue to be a vocal believer. I am trying my best to be a conscious person (Muttaqui) as Qur?an recommends and would always recommend that as the even path. Perhaps I conceptualize and explain the commonness that binds everything in existance in a mutual obligation of righteousness (whom I happen to call God) in a way different from a Buddhist / Hindu / Atheist, but - that common Foundation of everything in existence (God) is my Master and your Master, so let?s be slave to Him by upholding the intellect and conscience that He has given us ? that is the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting? -
I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting?I do and I did clarify where I deemed necessary.
I have not an atom of regret if my " rhetoric " prompted anyone to question one's beliefs. Belief (janna) turns into conviction (yakeen) only through questioning and contemplating - and to get there one needs the freedom of mental space to do the questioning in the first place. Bullying one's mind with sacred unquestionable beliefs pushed down the throat takes away that freedom and potentially leads to fanaticism.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam,I think i failed to explain myself..again.Words always seem to fail me.As we all understand being a believer or a person who holds faith,one needs to have a complete view,i think the arabic for it is "al baseera" or something.In my mere opinion there is no definite,concrete definition of who is a believer and its futile to even try to confine it in the definition of a language.
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Salam,I think i failed to explain myself..again.Words always seem to fail me.As we all understand being a believer or a person who holds faith,one needs to have a complete view,i think the arabic for it is "al baseera" or something.In my mere opinion there is no definite,concrete definition of who is a believer and its futile to even try to confine it in the definition of a language.
Wrong and if you'll be patient I will da-ra-ba what the Quran conveys if Allah so wills clearly
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salam HP_Tech bro O0 the prime reason to join Freeminds was to listen learn and reconsider tempt.Do share your take on the matter
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Peace Arman
Being a Muttaqui is a sufficient condition for salvation. That does not mean whoever is not muttaqui is a failure or they are doomed to hell.
Where in the Quran do yo read that? Bring your proof. This is from your mouth not the Quran. There is no evidence for what you propose. Furthermore what are you defining muttaqin as?
Many terms have been translated as righteous muttaqin, salihina and abrara. A careful look at these terms will reveal that each convey a specific meaning. Though all of them have been simplified as righteous. Muttaqin really conveys one who guards/protects against evil (wards off evil).
Show me an ayaat which supports your claim. If not accept you are conjecturing.The minimum condition or necessary condition for salvation are outlined in verses like 262.
262 Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.
First of all let me clarify 262. It is a statement found throughout the entire Quran that, those who believe among the people and work deeds of righteousness will have their reward.
Furthermore, take a look at the ayaat with sincerity. The word believed is used twice. There are those who believed and then there are some among those People of the Scripture who also believed, which we know to be true, because Allah had guided some of the people from these groups when they were firm on their Books and supported their messengers, so whichever among those persevered and kept faith they will have their reward and perhaps those who repent will receive Mercy from their Lord if He so wills.Although a counter to your misunderstanding of 262 is 2217
Indeed, those who have believed, and those who were Jews and the Sabians and the Christians and the Majus, and those who (are) polytheists indeed, Allah will judge between them (on) the Day (of) the Resurrection. Indeed, Allah over every thing (is) a Witness.
Are these necessary conditions or are they names being listed? No group is automatically exempt from punishment, everyone will be judged, even the prophets fear the judgement.
How can becoming Jew, Nazarene or Sabian be a necessary condition for salvation?
You are somewhat confused.Again there is no such thing as minimum condition. Where do you read that in the Quran? It is your invention. Beware of saying about Allah that which you have no knowledge about.
There is a room between the necessary condition and the sufficient condition ? and my understanding is that a person even without the explicit belief in God and the Holy Books can still at least theoretically meet the necessary conditions as long as he demonstrates faith in God (by accepting that the life has a purpose and to uphold the sanctity of the common foundation of all that exist they put righteousness to all above their individual interest), faith in the last day (by accepting accountability of each of their actions ? both open and secret) and by acting righteously based on such faith.
More conjecture. Quran thoroughly contradicts what you say. It is illogical to assume that one can pass the test, without believing in God and His Holy Books. That is paradoxical. Your argument holds no water. Is illogical.
The difference between a Muttaqui and a non- Muttaqui is like two travelers through a rough dessert ? the Muttaqui has the compass, the map, has clear idea where the next town is and has the necessary supplies to get to the next town; whereas, the non- Muttaqui is a wonderer who has no clue where he is going, but just following the routes of the caravans with the hope that he will end up in some town before his supplies run out. It cannot be said that the second traveler will be lost and dead, but definitely he runs a much higher risk of deviation and failure.
Stop. Do not try to make your own examples.
You think humans are self-sufficient, that is part of your ploy. You think a traveler is able to navigate alone through the desert without guidance or Help from Allah.
Allah gives the perfect examples.
2439 But those who disbelieve, their deeds (are) like a mirage in a lowland, thinks it the thirsty one (to be) water, until when he comes to it, not he finds it (to be) anything, but he finds Allah before him, He will pay him in full his due. And Allah (is) swift (in) the account.1045 And the Day He will gather them, as if they had not remained except an hour of the day, they will recognize each other between them. Certainly, (will have) lost those who denied the meeting (with) Allah, and not they were the guided ones.
There is no guidance without Allah, one cannot randomly by themselves arrive to the destination if they are not guided by the Most High. The Quran stresses this.
There are numerous sects and religions in the world - each of whom claim to have the last / best / most accurate message. Do you claim you have studied them all? Have you, for example, studied the teachings of Guru Nanak who preached the Shikhism religion, or about the Zainism religion? If you haven't, then who gives you the right to question the position of those who have heard about Qur'an but not been interested to study it? Especially since the flag-bearers of "Institutionalized Islam" are not putting up glaring examples of righteousness anyway?
Going off-topic. I have no interest in other false religions. I follow the guidance from Allah. Should I take up your challenge and turn my back on the Book for the falsehood?
You continue to be hell-bent on assigning the meanings ?believing? (as in accepting a hypothesis to be true) and ?disbelieving? (refusing to accept a hypothesis to be true) to the Qur?anic terms iman and kufr. Until we clarify this point there is no way our discussion can move productively. There are many verses in Qur?an which demonstrate that iman does not mean believing. Let me just get started with seeking your specific views on a couple of verses
I am not hell-anything. You are the one who is bent upon denying the meanings of iman and kufr.
There is nothing to clarify believing and disbelieving make perfect sense. Why did you not address the issue by showing us how you arrive at your left-field translations.PRL, and many lexicons convey believing and disbelieving( concealment of belief/faith)
You?re the one challenging logic, you should at least provide your methodology. There is no evidence for your interpretation in the Quran whatsoever.
Case 1
26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.
How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?
Just like that
It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?
These translations are supported by logic, concordance, lexicons, root-meanings and context within Quran. And Yours?
Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?It does not matter whether those who disbelieve are warned or not because just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth no matter what you tell them.
Case 2
2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.
If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?
Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.
Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.
240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .It seems like you do not understand that following your own desire, or not believing in the Hereafter with certainty and that you will return to Allah is associating partners.
You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
BEWARE of saying about Allah that which you have no knowledge of Arman.Here is what Allah conveys
4150
And verily, if We let him mercy from Us after an adversity (has) touched him, he will surely say, "This (is) (due) to me and not I think the Hour (will be) established, and if I am returned to my Lord, indeed, for me with Him (will be) the best." But We will surely inform those who disbelieved about what they did, and We will surely make them of a punishment severe.1836-42
And not I think the Hour will occur. And if I am bought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this (as) a return."
Said to him his companion while he was talking to him, "Do you disbelieve in created you from dust then from a minute quantity of then fashioned you (into) a man?
But as for me, He (is) Allah, my Lord, and not I associate with my Lord anyone.
And why (did you) not, when you entered your garden say, "What Allah wills; (there is) no power except with Allah." If you see me lesser than you (in) wealth and children,
It may be that my Lord will give me better than your garden and will send upon it a calamity from the sky, then it will become ground slippery,
Or will become, its water, sunken, so never you will be able to find it."
And were surrounded his fruits, so he began twisting his hands over what he (had) spent on it, while it (had) collapsed on its trellises, and he said, ?Oh! I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone.?Look at this example. This man is just like the examples you are bent upon giving, one who is not certain in the Hereafter. Look what his companion says about him and what this man says about himself in the end. Not believing in the Day of Account is equivalent to associating partners hence being a polytheist. What is the recompense of the polytheist? Fire.
What is the recompense of those who lead the people astray unknowingly?
You should read upon it, because that is what your guilty of.
If you repent Allah is All-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.If you care enough to think about these two cases and share your understanding of the above logically ? In sha Allah our discussion can progress constructively. Else I?ll have to leave you with your delusions for the time ? hope someday our Master will give you time and will to do your own study of the original Arabic Qur?an instead of blindly relying on the translators and self-proclaimed scholars.
I rely on Allah to guide me.
But it seems like you know me more than myself. Who do I rely on, what self-proclaimed scholars do I rely on?
So judgmental towards one who believes, furthermore you call me delusional?
You assume that those who believe in any mumbo jumbo are on something while me who are only conveying to you what is in the Book clear is delusional.
You sound familiar.
We will see tomorrow who is the deluded fool.
Have you inherited it from those before? Nay perhaps you too are a transgressing people.You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door, you should with all haste take your own advice and quit, because as we have seen you are influencing others to believe they can be saved without faith and belief in God, His Books, His Messengers and the Meeting of the Hereafter.
Your deductions and ridiculous translations with no logical support prove you are in need to truly take your time and study over again. Repetition will make no difference if your heart is the same. Turn in humility.Regards,
HermanPS
3335 is a better example than 262 yet these are not conditions, they are qualities attributes.
If you?d like to clarify then define these with Quran, context and lexicons
muslimina- those who submit
qanitina- obedient
sadiqina- truthful
sabirina- patient
khashi ?ina- humble
mtasadiqina- those who give charityThe mu?minun and disbelievers are like night and day
mu?minina -believer/trustor/faithful/ (submissive)
muqininamuttaqin -one who guards against evil
salihina -peacemaker, reformer
al-abrara -trustworthy, pious, honest, beneficent, truthful, gentle, kind
amiluna -
sabiquna -foremostmushrikina - polytheists( those who associate partners) not believing in the Hereafter and returning to Allah for judgement is itself an association example is surah
munafiqina -hypocrites
kafiruna - disbelieversOne of the problems you and many other face is that you want to define terms in a solid fashion. Meaning that the definition should fit universally in every scenario.
But you have to understand that depending on context the same word might differ in meaning.
Look at 4028 for example This man had faith but concealed it. Is that not what you define as kafaroo? Obviously that is not what is being conveyed in this example. This man had faith but had to hide it for fear of Firaun.
This is a different type of concealment of faith right?
Hence you cannot simply generalize the meaning of a word and try to address the examples in the Quran in such matter, it is a case-by-case-contextual approach that will result in correct understanding as in the above example.5713-29 Emphasize on 16-19
5716-19
Has not come (the) time for those who believed that become humble their hearts at (the) remembrance (of) Allah and what has come down of the truth? And not they become like those who were given the Book before, (and) was prolonged for them the term, so hardened their hearts; and many of them (are) defiantly disobedient.
Know that Allah gives life (to) the earth after its death. Indeed, We have made clear to you the Signs so that you may understand.
Indeed, the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and who lend (to) Allah a loan goodly, it will be multiplied for them, and for them (is) a reward noble.
And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers, they (are) the truthful and the martyrs, (are) with their Lord. For them (is) their reward and their light. But those who disbelieve and deny Our Verses, those (are the) companions (of) the Hellfire.3965 And verily, it has been revealed to you and to those who (were) before you, if you associate (with Allah) surely, will become worthless your deeds and you will surely be among the losers.
Remember disbelieving in Allah is associating partners, we have seen this with the example of the two companions and the garden.
2217 They ask you about the month sacred - (concerning) fighting in it. Say, "Fighting therein (is) a great (sin); but hindering (people) from (the) way (of) Allah, and disbelief in Him and (preventing access to) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam, and driving out its people from it, (is) greater (sin) near Allah. And oppression (is) greater than killing." And not they will cease (to) fight with you until they turn you away from your religion, if they are able. And whoever turns away among you from his religion, then dies while he (is) a disbeliever for those became worthless their deeds in the world and the Hereafter. And those (are) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever.
917 (It) is not for the polytheists that they maintain (the) masajid of Allah (while) witnessing against themselves disbelief. (For) those, worthless (are) their deeds, and in the Fire they (will) abide forever.
969 Like those before you they were mightier than you (in) strength, and more abundant (in) wealth and children. So they enjoyed their portion, and you have enjoyed your portion like enjoyed those before you their portion, and you indulge like the one who indulges (in idle talk). Those, worthless, (are) their deeds in the world and (in) the Hereafter. And those, they (are) the losers.
471 Those who disbelieve and turn away from (the) way of Allah, He will cause to be lost their deeds.
478 But those who disbelieve, destruction (is) for them, and He will cause to be lost their deeds.
4733 O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and (do) not make vain your deeds.The deeds of those who disbelieve will be rended vain, despite of your conjecture and assumption.
The reward is only for the workers who believe.
Basically please re-read all of chapter 40 and 64
Only 2 kinds of people a believer and disbeliever. You propose there are grey areas while your Lord shows it is black and white.
642
He (is) the One Who created you and among you (is) a disbeliever and among you (is) a believer. And Allah of what you do (is) All-Seer. -
HP_TECH,
In your sectarian interpretation of Quran there are actually passages that say anyone who believes and does righteous deeds will reach Heaven.
(Even if that interpretation is not even remotely attached to reality)
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Peace.
Where in the Quran do yo read that? Bring your proof. This is from your mouth not the Quran. There is no evidence for what you propose. Furthermore what are you defining muttaqin as?
Many terms have been translated as righteous muttaqin, salihina and abrara. A careful look at these terms will reveal that each convey a specific meaning. Though all of them have been simplified as righteous. Muttaqin really conveys one who guards/protects against evil (wards off evil).
Show me an ayaat which supports your claim. If not accept you are conjecturing.262 Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.
First of all let me clarify 262. It is a statement found throughout the entire Quran that, those who believe among the people and work deeds of righteousness will have their reward.
Furthermore, take a look at the ayaat with sincerity. The word believed is used twice. There are those who believed and then there are some among those People of the Scripture who also believed, which we know to be true, because Allah had guided some of the people from these groups when they were firm on their Books and supported their messengers, so whichever among those persevered and kept faith they will have their reward and perhaps those who repent will receive Mercy from their Lord if He so wills.The definition of a Muttaqui / Conscious
22 That is the book - no doubt in it ? a guidance for the conscious.
23 Those who have put faith in the unobservable and establish the salaat and out of what We provided them ? they spend.
24 And those who have put faith in what is sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and of the hereafter they are convinced.
25 They are the ones - on guidance from their Master; and they are the ones ? who are successful.
Per above a muttaqui is defined to have five characteristics
i) They put faith in the unobservable (as opposed to being arrogant that all you can see is all there is.)
ii) They establish salaat (this I understand as establishing reverence for God with appropriate ritual and behavioral expression.)
iii) They spend from what Allah provided them (This emphasizes purity of earning and charity) and
iv) They put faith in the messages brought forth by the messengers
v) They are convinced about the hereafter.On the other hand the minimum conditions for salvation are outlined in 262
262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.
The minimum criteria for salvation per the above are 3
i) They put faith in Allah
ii) They put faith in the Last day
iii) They act righteously.A careful and logical reading of the above verses clearly reveals that the minimum criteria (as in 262) is a subset of criteria of being a Muttaqui. For example, putting faith in the messengers or the angels or the books have not been highlighted in the minimum criteria (262). The minimum criteria is reconfirmed several times in Qur?an including ? 4124, 569. It is obvious from these verses that putting faith in the messengers and holy books is not included in the minimum criteria for salvation. The resulting logical conclusion is that the taqwa (which includes faith in messengers and books) is not the necessary minimum condition, rather it is the recommended sufficient condition, or recommended path towards salvation.
Now, a closer look at the 2 cases I presented to support my understanding of iman and kufr
Case 1
26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.
How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?
Your Response
Just like that
It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?
My Response
Instead of critically looking at the verse and pondering what Qur?an is saying, you are being stubborn on sticking to your understanding. This is not a logical response to the question presented.
Case 2
2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.
If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?
Your Response
Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.
Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.
240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .My Response
Covenant with humans or God irrespective ? the verse implies that breaking of covenant is an indication that a person does not have Iman (faith). Accepting Iman as believing does not add up. People who ?believe? in Allah can still break covenants with Allah and Mankind. So did Iblis?and many of the people of the book from the past.
Furthermore reading this as covenant with God makes it even more obvious that amana cannot be believing. How can you hold one accountable for a covenant with someone whom one does not even believe to exist?
I have given the necessary clarifications to my posts. With deep regret I find that you repeatedly engaged in derogatory personal attacks in your post. For example
- ? that is part of your ploy.
- Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?
- ?just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth?
- ?have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
- You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
- You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door
I have no intention to divulge into name calling ? if I do not see remarkable improvement in tone and a sincere will to discuss in civil manner? I will refrain from responding to your further posts.
For you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Regards,
ArmanP.S. Translations from Qur'an above are my personal translations. If there is any specific criticism to my translation with regards to any word or phrase - I welcome that and consider that as a learning opportunity.
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HP_TECH,
In your sectarian interpretation of Quran there are actually passages that say anyone who believes and does righteous deeds will reach Heaven.
(Even if that interpretation is not even remotely attached to reality)
My sectarian interpretation? I have no relation with those who divide themselves into sects like yourself Amenuel. You follow your own desire and your interpretations are shunned by everyone. You are the sectarian, wake up...
You are delude Amenuel.
These are literal word for word translation almost identical to the translation from free-minds. Are free-minds sectarians?
I use lexicons and context within Quran to assert the probability of correctness of a certain translation/interpretation, while both you and Arman still have to explain to the rest of us how in the world yo arrive at your interpretation.
Amenuel, you particularly are pathetic, because I have asked you again and again to bring your proofs but you never do. You always resurface with 2 liners that show your desires for argumentation, but at the first sight of challenge to your views you take off like Bolt.
You have barely ever even cited relevant ayaats in your argument or how the lexicons you use demonstrate your interpretation.Just sit down and be quiet, please
You have no business speaking about translation or interpretation nor sectarianism. You started your own religion for crying out loud and you are your own prophet and we are according to you all deluded bravo
Just sit down nope
By the way. We are all aware that those who believe and do righteous deeds will have their reward, if you would have taken your time to read my post, you would have actually seen that I have stated that.
The thing you and Arman are failing to realize is that this belief encompasses belief in Allah, His Angels, His Messengers, His Books and the Last Day and the righteous deeds encompass salat and zakat.Again you are lying because there is in the Quran any evidence that there is a minimum necessary.
You still have to cite any support from the Quran, it is just your mouths that are talking.