Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited
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2246
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Bias bred from Hatred
= Blindness
Shalom Aleikhem,
Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!
May peace be with you
----------------------------- Student of Allah
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Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong
when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away !
Like e.g., here /Why bother then ?!?
Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? plz don't lie against me !
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Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away ! E.g., here.
Why bother then ?!?
Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? Don't lie /
I did not run away. You have to realize that I don't hang around this forum as much as I used to. Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true? Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything. I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape. Not to mention that all the interlocking mathematical models we have of planets (including earth) will have to be discarded despite them having predictive power. (best of luck trying to convince people to throw away all that working model too )
I ask you questions and you answer with things like
"and why would that be?"
You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work? The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?
It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true. None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal. It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize.
P.S. Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.
------------ Student of Allah
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I apologize to the creator of the tread for the off topic rant. D Will try not to do that agian.
-------- Student of Allah
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I did not run away.
If you say so !
Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true?
You mean the bulk of misinfo, acquired through indoctrination.
Aye, to accept that Earth is in fact planate (instead of rotund) one has to stop erroneously appealing to the majority and throw away that which they forced down his/her throat during childhood/gullibility, to realize - through independent, objective enquiry - that his/her inherited "spinning/whirling ball" bubble has no basis in Reality.
Real eyes, realize, real lies.
Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything.
Your "theories" can't prove Earth's alleged motions !
Why contradict the truth and believe that Earth moves, then ?!
I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape.
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There's no such a thing as "gravity" on Earth ~ Try Density.
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What makes you think Earth is a so-called "planet" ?! <- this is an assumption ! A preconceived notion.
I ask you questions and you answer with things like
"and why would that be?"
Contextomy !
You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work?
Disregard everything we know ?! ? Nop !
Only Falsehood (aka. PSEUDO-science)
The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?
Equations mean nothing if they can't represent Reality.
It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true.
You need to differentiate between theories and facts.
None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal.
I presented you with a clear and stable RAW footage (with a rectilinear lens) showing the FLAT earth from a high-altitude of 120,000 ft, along with a scientific paper by the leading Optical Society of America, testifying that the required elevation for discerning earth's alleged curvature is somewhat between 14,000 and 35,000 ft high !
You couldn't even address this one single argument /
Whatever happened to your "equations" !
It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize.
Meaningless words.
Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.
I didn't say that ALL people have useless eyes !
Just those with a blind mind.Salute.
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This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
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This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
Thanks for the compliments sister, but my post was never meant to encourage anyone to non-belief. My only contention was as believers in Qur?an how should we view or deal with the people who do not believe in God or a personified God. And my conclusion was that ? as long as they come to us in peace ? we are not authorized to question their faith (iman) because faith (Iman) is supposed to operate at a moral level, not an intellectual level. But unlike you I continue to be a vocal believer. I am trying my best to be a conscious person (Muttaqui) as Qur?an recommends and would always recommend that as the even path. Perhaps I conceptualize and explain the commonness that binds everything in existance in a mutual obligation of righteousness (whom I happen to call God) in a way different from a Buddhist / Hindu / Atheist, but - that common Foundation of everything in existence (God) is my Master and your Master, so let?s be slave to Him by upholding the intellect and conscience that He has given us ? that is the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting? -
I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting?I do and I did clarify where I deemed necessary.
I have not an atom of regret if my " rhetoric " prompted anyone to question one's beliefs. Belief (janna) turns into conviction (yakeen) only through questioning and contemplating - and to get there one needs the freedom of mental space to do the questioning in the first place. Bullying one's mind with sacred unquestionable beliefs pushed down the throat takes away that freedom and potentially leads to fanaticism.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam,I think i failed to explain myself..again.Words always seem to fail me.As we all understand being a believer or a person who holds faith,one needs to have a complete view,i think the arabic for it is "al baseera" or something.In my mere opinion there is no definite,concrete definition of who is a believer and its futile to even try to confine it in the definition of a language.
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Salam,I think i failed to explain myself..again.Words always seem to fail me.As we all understand being a believer or a person who holds faith,one needs to have a complete view,i think the arabic for it is "al baseera" or something.In my mere opinion there is no definite,concrete definition of who is a believer and its futile to even try to confine it in the definition of a language.
Wrong and if you'll be patient I will da-ra-ba what the Quran conveys if Allah so wills clearly
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salam HP_Tech bro O0 the prime reason to join Freeminds was to listen learn and reconsider tempt.Do share your take on the matter
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Peace Arman
Being a Muttaqui is a sufficient condition for salvation. That does not mean whoever is not muttaqui is a failure or they are doomed to hell.
Where in the Quran do yo read that? Bring your proof. This is from your mouth not the Quran. There is no evidence for what you propose. Furthermore what are you defining muttaqin as?
Many terms have been translated as righteous muttaqin, salihina and abrara. A careful look at these terms will reveal that each convey a specific meaning. Though all of them have been simplified as righteous. Muttaqin really conveys one who guards/protects against evil (wards off evil).
Show me an ayaat which supports your claim. If not accept you are conjecturing.The minimum condition or necessary condition for salvation are outlined in verses like 262.
262 Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.
First of all let me clarify 262. It is a statement found throughout the entire Quran that, those who believe among the people and work deeds of righteousness will have their reward.
Furthermore, take a look at the ayaat with sincerity. The word believed is used twice. There are those who believed and then there are some among those People of the Scripture who also believed, which we know to be true, because Allah had guided some of the people from these groups when they were firm on their Books and supported their messengers, so whichever among those persevered and kept faith they will have their reward and perhaps those who repent will receive Mercy from their Lord if He so wills.Although a counter to your misunderstanding of 262 is 2217
Indeed, those who have believed, and those who were Jews and the Sabians and the Christians and the Majus, and those who (are) polytheists indeed, Allah will judge between them (on) the Day (of) the Resurrection. Indeed, Allah over every thing (is) a Witness.
Are these necessary conditions or are they names being listed? No group is automatically exempt from punishment, everyone will be judged, even the prophets fear the judgement.
How can becoming Jew, Nazarene or Sabian be a necessary condition for salvation?
You are somewhat confused.Again there is no such thing as minimum condition. Where do you read that in the Quran? It is your invention. Beware of saying about Allah that which you have no knowledge about.
There is a room between the necessary condition and the sufficient condition ? and my understanding is that a person even without the explicit belief in God and the Holy Books can still at least theoretically meet the necessary conditions as long as he demonstrates faith in God (by accepting that the life has a purpose and to uphold the sanctity of the common foundation of all that exist they put righteousness to all above their individual interest), faith in the last day (by accepting accountability of each of their actions ? both open and secret) and by acting righteously based on such faith.
More conjecture. Quran thoroughly contradicts what you say. It is illogical to assume that one can pass the test, without believing in God and His Holy Books. That is paradoxical. Your argument holds no water. Is illogical.
The difference between a Muttaqui and a non- Muttaqui is like two travelers through a rough dessert ? the Muttaqui has the compass, the map, has clear idea where the next town is and has the necessary supplies to get to the next town; whereas, the non- Muttaqui is a wonderer who has no clue where he is going, but just following the routes of the caravans with the hope that he will end up in some town before his supplies run out. It cannot be said that the second traveler will be lost and dead, but definitely he runs a much higher risk of deviation and failure.
Stop. Do not try to make your own examples.
You think humans are self-sufficient, that is part of your ploy. You think a traveler is able to navigate alone through the desert without guidance or Help from Allah.
Allah gives the perfect examples.
2439 But those who disbelieve, their deeds (are) like a mirage in a lowland, thinks it the thirsty one (to be) water, until when he comes to it, not he finds it (to be) anything, but he finds Allah before him, He will pay him in full his due. And Allah (is) swift (in) the account.1045 And the Day He will gather them, as if they had not remained except an hour of the day, they will recognize each other between them. Certainly, (will have) lost those who denied the meeting (with) Allah, and not they were the guided ones.
There is no guidance without Allah, one cannot randomly by themselves arrive to the destination if they are not guided by the Most High. The Quran stresses this.
There are numerous sects and religions in the world - each of whom claim to have the last / best / most accurate message. Do you claim you have studied them all? Have you, for example, studied the teachings of Guru Nanak who preached the Shikhism religion, or about the Zainism religion? If you haven't, then who gives you the right to question the position of those who have heard about Qur'an but not been interested to study it? Especially since the flag-bearers of "Institutionalized Islam" are not putting up glaring examples of righteousness anyway?
Going off-topic. I have no interest in other false religions. I follow the guidance from Allah. Should I take up your challenge and turn my back on the Book for the falsehood?
You continue to be hell-bent on assigning the meanings ?believing? (as in accepting a hypothesis to be true) and ?disbelieving? (refusing to accept a hypothesis to be true) to the Qur?anic terms iman and kufr. Until we clarify this point there is no way our discussion can move productively. There are many verses in Qur?an which demonstrate that iman does not mean believing. Let me just get started with seeking your specific views on a couple of verses
I am not hell-anything. You are the one who is bent upon denying the meanings of iman and kufr.
There is nothing to clarify believing and disbelieving make perfect sense. Why did you not address the issue by showing us how you arrive at your left-field translations.PRL, and many lexicons convey believing and disbelieving( concealment of belief/faith)
You?re the one challenging logic, you should at least provide your methodology. There is no evidence for your interpretation in the Quran whatsoever.
Case 1
26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.
How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?
Just like that
It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?
These translations are supported by logic, concordance, lexicons, root-meanings and context within Quran. And Yours?
Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?It does not matter whether those who disbelieve are warned or not because just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth no matter what you tell them.
Case 2
2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.
If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?
Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.
Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.
240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .It seems like you do not understand that following your own desire, or not believing in the Hereafter with certainty and that you will return to Allah is associating partners.
You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
BEWARE of saying about Allah that which you have no knowledge of Arman.Here is what Allah conveys
4150
And verily, if We let him mercy from Us after an adversity (has) touched him, he will surely say, "This (is) (due) to me and not I think the Hour (will be) established, and if I am returned to my Lord, indeed, for me with Him (will be) the best." But We will surely inform those who disbelieved about what they did, and We will surely make them of a punishment severe.1836-42
And not I think the Hour will occur. And if I am bought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this (as) a return."
Said to him his companion while he was talking to him, "Do you disbelieve in created you from dust then from a minute quantity of then fashioned you (into) a man?
But as for me, He (is) Allah, my Lord, and not I associate with my Lord anyone.
And why (did you) not, when you entered your garden say, "What Allah wills; (there is) no power except with Allah." If you see me lesser than you (in) wealth and children,
It may be that my Lord will give me better than your garden and will send upon it a calamity from the sky, then it will become ground slippery,
Or will become, its water, sunken, so never you will be able to find it."
And were surrounded his fruits, so he began twisting his hands over what he (had) spent on it, while it (had) collapsed on its trellises, and he said, ?Oh! I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone.?Look at this example. This man is just like the examples you are bent upon giving, one who is not certain in the Hereafter. Look what his companion says about him and what this man says about himself in the end. Not believing in the Day of Account is equivalent to associating partners hence being a polytheist. What is the recompense of the polytheist? Fire.
What is the recompense of those who lead the people astray unknowingly?
You should read upon it, because that is what your guilty of.
If you repent Allah is All-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.If you care enough to think about these two cases and share your understanding of the above logically ? In sha Allah our discussion can progress constructively. Else I?ll have to leave you with your delusions for the time ? hope someday our Master will give you time and will to do your own study of the original Arabic Qur?an instead of blindly relying on the translators and self-proclaimed scholars.
I rely on Allah to guide me.
But it seems like you know me more than myself. Who do I rely on, what self-proclaimed scholars do I rely on?
So judgmental towards one who believes, furthermore you call me delusional?
You assume that those who believe in any mumbo jumbo are on something while me who are only conveying to you what is in the Book clear is delusional.
You sound familiar.
We will see tomorrow who is the deluded fool.
Have you inherited it from those before? Nay perhaps you too are a transgressing people.You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door, you should with all haste take your own advice and quit, because as we have seen you are influencing others to believe they can be saved without faith and belief in God, His Books, His Messengers and the Meeting of the Hereafter.
Your deductions and ridiculous translations with no logical support prove you are in need to truly take your time and study over again. Repetition will make no difference if your heart is the same. Turn in humility.Regards,
HermanPS
3335 is a better example than 262 yet these are not conditions, they are qualities attributes.
If you?d like to clarify then define these with Quran, context and lexicons
muslimina- those who submit
qanitina- obedient
sadiqina- truthful
sabirina- patient
khashi ?ina- humble
mtasadiqina- those who give charityThe mu?minun and disbelievers are like night and day
mu?minina -believer/trustor/faithful/ (submissive)
muqininamuttaqin -one who guards against evil
salihina -peacemaker, reformer
al-abrara -trustworthy, pious, honest, beneficent, truthful, gentle, kind
amiluna -
sabiquna -foremostmushrikina - polytheists( those who associate partners) not believing in the Hereafter and returning to Allah for judgement is itself an association example is surah
munafiqina -hypocrites
kafiruna - disbelieversOne of the problems you and many other face is that you want to define terms in a solid fashion. Meaning that the definition should fit universally in every scenario.
But you have to understand that depending on context the same word might differ in meaning.
Look at 4028 for example This man had faith but concealed it. Is that not what you define as kafaroo? Obviously that is not what is being conveyed in this example. This man had faith but had to hide it for fear of Firaun.
This is a different type of concealment of faith right?
Hence you cannot simply generalize the meaning of a word and try to address the examples in the Quran in such matter, it is a case-by-case-contextual approach that will result in correct understanding as in the above example.5713-29 Emphasize on 16-19
5716-19
Has not come (the) time for those who believed that become humble their hearts at (the) remembrance (of) Allah and what has come down of the truth? And not they become like those who were given the Book before, (and) was prolonged for them the term, so hardened their hearts; and many of them (are) defiantly disobedient.
Know that Allah gives life (to) the earth after its death. Indeed, We have made clear to you the Signs so that you may understand.
Indeed, the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and who lend (to) Allah a loan goodly, it will be multiplied for them, and for them (is) a reward noble.
And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers, they (are) the truthful and the martyrs, (are) with their Lord. For them (is) their reward and their light. But those who disbelieve and deny Our Verses, those (are the) companions (of) the Hellfire.3965 And verily, it has been revealed to you and to those who (were) before you, if you associate (with Allah) surely, will become worthless your deeds and you will surely be among the losers.
Remember disbelieving in Allah is associating partners, we have seen this with the example of the two companions and the garden.
2217 They ask you about the month sacred - (concerning) fighting in it. Say, "Fighting therein (is) a great (sin); but hindering (people) from (the) way (of) Allah, and disbelief in Him and (preventing access to) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam, and driving out its people from it, (is) greater (sin) near Allah. And oppression (is) greater than killing." And not they will cease (to) fight with you until they turn you away from your religion, if they are able. And whoever turns away among you from his religion, then dies while he (is) a disbeliever for those became worthless their deeds in the world and the Hereafter. And those (are) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever.
917 (It) is not for the polytheists that they maintain (the) masajid of Allah (while) witnessing against themselves disbelief. (For) those, worthless (are) their deeds, and in the Fire they (will) abide forever.
969 Like those before you they were mightier than you (in) strength, and more abundant (in) wealth and children. So they enjoyed their portion, and you have enjoyed your portion like enjoyed those before you their portion, and you indulge like the one who indulges (in idle talk). Those, worthless, (are) their deeds in the world and (in) the Hereafter. And those, they (are) the losers.
471 Those who disbelieve and turn away from (the) way of Allah, He will cause to be lost their deeds.
478 But those who disbelieve, destruction (is) for them, and He will cause to be lost their deeds.
4733 O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and (do) not make vain your deeds.The deeds of those who disbelieve will be rended vain, despite of your conjecture and assumption.
The reward is only for the workers who believe.
Basically please re-read all of chapter 40 and 64
Only 2 kinds of people a believer and disbeliever. You propose there are grey areas while your Lord shows it is black and white.
642
He (is) the One Who created you and among you (is) a disbeliever and among you (is) a believer. And Allah of what you do (is) All-Seer. -
HP_TECH,
In your sectarian interpretation of Quran there are actually passages that say anyone who believes and does righteous deeds will reach Heaven.
(Even if that interpretation is not even remotely attached to reality)
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Peace.
Where in the Quran do yo read that? Bring your proof. This is from your mouth not the Quran. There is no evidence for what you propose. Furthermore what are you defining muttaqin as?
Many terms have been translated as righteous muttaqin, salihina and abrara. A careful look at these terms will reveal that each convey a specific meaning. Though all of them have been simplified as righteous. Muttaqin really conveys one who guards/protects against evil (wards off evil).
Show me an ayaat which supports your claim. If not accept you are conjecturing.262 Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.
First of all let me clarify 262. It is a statement found throughout the entire Quran that, those who believe among the people and work deeds of righteousness will have their reward.
Furthermore, take a look at the ayaat with sincerity. The word believed is used twice. There are those who believed and then there are some among those People of the Scripture who also believed, which we know to be true, because Allah had guided some of the people from these groups when they were firm on their Books and supported their messengers, so whichever among those persevered and kept faith they will have their reward and perhaps those who repent will receive Mercy from their Lord if He so wills.The definition of a Muttaqui / Conscious
22 That is the book - no doubt in it ? a guidance for the conscious.
23 Those who have put faith in the unobservable and establish the salaat and out of what We provided them ? they spend.
24 And those who have put faith in what is sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and of the hereafter they are convinced.
25 They are the ones - on guidance from their Master; and they are the ones ? who are successful.
Per above a muttaqui is defined to have five characteristics
i) They put faith in the unobservable (as opposed to being arrogant that all you can see is all there is.)
ii) They establish salaat (this I understand as establishing reverence for God with appropriate ritual and behavioral expression.)
iii) They spend from what Allah provided them (This emphasizes purity of earning and charity) and
iv) They put faith in the messages brought forth by the messengers
v) They are convinced about the hereafter.On the other hand the minimum conditions for salvation are outlined in 262
262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.
The minimum criteria for salvation per the above are 3
i) They put faith in Allah
ii) They put faith in the Last day
iii) They act righteously.A careful and logical reading of the above verses clearly reveals that the minimum criteria (as in 262) is a subset of criteria of being a Muttaqui. For example, putting faith in the messengers or the angels or the books have not been highlighted in the minimum criteria (262). The minimum criteria is reconfirmed several times in Qur?an including ? 4124, 569. It is obvious from these verses that putting faith in the messengers and holy books is not included in the minimum criteria for salvation. The resulting logical conclusion is that the taqwa (which includes faith in messengers and books) is not the necessary minimum condition, rather it is the recommended sufficient condition, or recommended path towards salvation.
Now, a closer look at the 2 cases I presented to support my understanding of iman and kufr
Case 1
26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.
How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?
Your Response
Just like that
It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?
My Response
Instead of critically looking at the verse and pondering what Qur?an is saying, you are being stubborn on sticking to your understanding. This is not a logical response to the question presented.
Case 2
2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.
If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?
Your Response
Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.
Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.
240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .My Response
Covenant with humans or God irrespective ? the verse implies that breaking of covenant is an indication that a person does not have Iman (faith). Accepting Iman as believing does not add up. People who ?believe? in Allah can still break covenants with Allah and Mankind. So did Iblis?and many of the people of the book from the past.
Furthermore reading this as covenant with God makes it even more obvious that amana cannot be believing. How can you hold one accountable for a covenant with someone whom one does not even believe to exist?
I have given the necessary clarifications to my posts. With deep regret I find that you repeatedly engaged in derogatory personal attacks in your post. For example
- ? that is part of your ploy.
- Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?
- ?just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth?
- ?have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
- You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
- You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door
I have no intention to divulge into name calling ? if I do not see remarkable improvement in tone and a sincere will to discuss in civil manner? I will refrain from responding to your further posts.
For you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Regards,
ArmanP.S. Translations from Qur'an above are my personal translations. If there is any specific criticism to my translation with regards to any word or phrase - I welcome that and consider that as a learning opportunity.
-
HP_TECH,
In your sectarian interpretation of Quran there are actually passages that say anyone who believes and does righteous deeds will reach Heaven.
(Even if that interpretation is not even remotely attached to reality)
My sectarian interpretation? I have no relation with those who divide themselves into sects like yourself Amenuel. You follow your own desire and your interpretations are shunned by everyone. You are the sectarian, wake up...
You are delude Amenuel.
These are literal word for word translation almost identical to the translation from free-minds. Are free-minds sectarians?
I use lexicons and context within Quran to assert the probability of correctness of a certain translation/interpretation, while both you and Arman still have to explain to the rest of us how in the world yo arrive at your interpretation.
Amenuel, you particularly are pathetic, because I have asked you again and again to bring your proofs but you never do. You always resurface with 2 liners that show your desires for argumentation, but at the first sight of challenge to your views you take off like Bolt.
You have barely ever even cited relevant ayaats in your argument or how the lexicons you use demonstrate your interpretation.Just sit down and be quiet, please
You have no business speaking about translation or interpretation nor sectarianism. You started your own religion for crying out loud and you are your own prophet and we are according to you all deluded bravo
Just sit down nope
By the way. We are all aware that those who believe and do righteous deeds will have their reward, if you would have taken your time to read my post, you would have actually seen that I have stated that.
The thing you and Arman are failing to realize is that this belief encompasses belief in Allah, His Angels, His Messengers, His Books and the Last Day and the righteous deeds encompass salat and zakat.Again you are lying because there is in the Quran any evidence that there is a minimum necessary.
You still have to cite any support from the Quran, it is just your mouths that are talking.
-
Peace.
The definition of a Muttaqui / Conscious
22 That is the book - no doubt in it ? a guidance for the conscious.
23 Those who have put faith in the unobservable and establish the salaat and out of what We provided them ? they spend.
24 And those who have put faith in what is sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and of the hereafter they are convinced.
25 They are the ones - on guidance from their Master; and they are the ones ? who are successful.
Per above a muttaqui is defined to have five characteristics
i) They put faith in the unobservable (as opposed to being arrogant that all you can see is all there is.)
ii) They establish salaat (this I understand as establishing reverence for God with appropriate ritual and behavioral expression.)
iii) They spend from what Allah provided them (This emphasizes purity of earning and charity) and
iv) They put faith in the messages brought forth by the messengers
v) They are convinced about the hereafter.Emphasis on "per above", because I am sure the Quran gives more descriptions about mutaqqin in other ayaats.
You cannot expect to grasp the entirety of this term from one ayaat.On the other hand the minimum conditions for salvation are outlined in 262
I disagree, because there is no such indication of any minimum conditions. It is a foreign concept in the Quran.
There is no minimum condition for salvation. It is something you have come up with. Which is why I am sticking to my understanding. Can you prove with citations from the Quran where it explicitly conveys there is such a thing as a minimum condition for salvation. In other words where in Quran do you read minimum condition?
You won?t find that. Until you do, you cannot make such a claim.262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.
The minimum criteria for salvation per the above are 3
i) They put faith in Allah
ii) They put faith in the Last day
iii) They act righteously.Arman, nowhere does it say that those are minimum.
Furthermore, how can you arbitrarily decide that putting faith in Allah does not convey putting faith in His Words and by default His Messengers.
It is a bit unfair for you to separate those from i).
One can argue that when it comes to ii) if one puts faith in the Last day by default they are acknowledging The Books which warn about it, and the Messengers who warn about it.
iii) Same argument is permissible for acting righteously, one acts righteously by acknowledging EVERYTHING authorized by AllahSo you see excluding Books and Messengers and Maliki is truly arbitrary as i), ii) and iii) are all overlapping and encompass each other.
Example if one puts faith in the Messengers of Allah then he is by default acknowledging that the Messengers were sent with a Message authorized by Allah and hence, acknowledge their Lord and contents in the Message about the Last Day and thereby are acting righteously.
A careful and logical reading of the above verses clearly reveals that the minimum criteria (as in 262) is a subset of criteria of being a Muttaqui. For example, putting faith in the messengers or the angels or the books have not been highlighted in the minimum criteria (262). The minimum criteria is reconfirmed several times in Qur?an including ? 4124, 569. It is obvious from these verses that putting faith in the messengers and holy books is not included in the minimum criteria for salvation. The resulting logical conclusion is that the taqwa (which includes faith in messengers and books) is not the necessary minimum condition, rather it is the recommended sufficient condition, or recommended path towards salvation.
I disagree with your argument for the reasons given in the previous response. It is not logical. Especially when all the Messengers will stand as witnesses over their people and the people will be asked what response they made to the Messengers. Can an atheist earnestly be secure when his response will be that they were not certain of the Messengers nor the Books sent to them?
That is a bit ridiculous. You cannot say you honestly put faith in God and disregard/ doubt or be uncertain of His Own Words sent down to you by His authorized Messengers. It is just not possible.Now, a closer look at the 2 cases I presented to support my understanding of iman and kufr
Case 1
26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.
How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?
Your Response
Just like that
It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?
My Response
Instead of critically looking at the verse and pondering what Qur?an is saying, you are being stubborn on sticking to your understanding. This is not a logical response to the question presented.
Case 1
You selected part of my response and presented it as the whole. The interpretations I cited are logically coherent as well and as I have stated are supported by context in Quran, concordance, root meaning and lexicons. It is not stubbornness that brings me to the understanding but Allah. I have critically thought about the entire Quran for 2 and a half years, while praying and seeking guidance day by day and upholding the Reading day by day. Don?t assume otherwise only because you dislike what I am saying.
You cannot deny that the ayaat is sound in the interpretation I cited.
I honestly do not believe you disagree with the possibility of this interpretation being sound in the way it was presented in my previous post.It literally does not matter if you yell in a deaf person?s ear because they will not hear. It is akin to such a statement.
Arguing that 26 does not make sense in the conventional interpretation is a far stretch.Case 2
2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.
If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?
Your Response
Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.
Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.
240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .My Response
Covenant with humans or God irrespective ? the verse implies that breaking of covenant is an indication that a person does not have Iman (faith). Accepting Iman as believing does not add up. People who ?believe? in Allah can still break covenants with Allah and Mankind. So did Iblis?and many of the people of the book from the past.
Furthermore reading this as covenant with God makes it even more obvious that amana cannot be believing. How can you hold one accountable for a covenant with someone whom one does not even believe to exist?
Case 2
This ayaat is referring to the people of the Book don't look at 1 ayaat. Look at the surrounding ayaat in the surah to make sense of it. Especially the following ayaat 2101. These are obviously people of the Book that broke their Covenant with Allah, by not supporting the Messengers and concealing the truth among many other transgressions.You are attempting to shift the frame of context in this ayaat to make the claim that the definition of iman in the logical interpretation does not hold in your distorted understanding of who the ayaat is referring to.
Once you accept the ayaat is referring to the People of the Book it comes clear that they had a covenant with God threw away the covenant with Allah and threw away the Book behind their backs
2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.
2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.Your reading out of context. Almost this entire surah is reminding the Children of Israel of their Covenant with Allah and the ayaats leading up to it are admonishing and exposing the hadu for claiming the Home of the Hereafter is for them for the exclusion of mankind.
Furthermore Arman, you know very well no other people are mentioned or even conveyed in these ayaats. Again these were ayaats being addressed to the Children of Israel and there is no indication of this particular ayaat conveying any covenant with any other people.
If we were to entertain your outlandish claim that the covenant is referring to other people. Why would it affect your understanding of amanu.
It just wouldn?t be sufficient evidence nor logical evidence based on context and lack of mention of other peoples.
And it is just not true.
I have given the necessary clarifications to my posts. With deep regret I find that you repeatedly engaged in derogatory personal attacks in your post. For example
Disregard the ?attacks? and do not forget your own faults
- ? that is part of your ploy.
- Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?
- ?just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth?
- ?have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
- You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
- You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door
P.S. Translations from Qur'an above are my personal translations. If there is any specific criticism to my translation with regards to any word or phrase - I welcome that and consider that as a learning opportunity.
Rather consider these as criticism, warnings and admonishments, I hope you take them as a learning opportunity .
You are not innocent either
I have no intention to divulge into name calling ? if I do not see remarkable improvement in tone and a sincere will to discuss in civil manner? I will refrain from responding to your further posts.
Yet you later said about me
If you care enough to think about these two cases and share your understanding of the above logically ? In sha Allah our discussion can progress constructively. Else I?ll have to leave you with your delusions for the time ? hope someday our Master will give you time and will to do your own study of the original Arabic Qur?an instead of blindly relying on the translators and self-proclaimed scholars.
Is this not a "personal attack"?
If you claim I have delusions and you cannot and have not proven your stance from a logical perspective then your sense of righteousness is false or at best mistaken.
That is not a personal attack, it was logic.If you wish to end the correspondence it is on you, you have yet to address my arguments properly. I took my time to ensure I address all your arguments, but you honestly rushed bit this time.
Now come on, do not play the victim, when you were in fact the one who truly initiated the "name calling".
Hope you have not lost the will to actually discuss and truly consider what I am conveying to you.Also in response to the OP No a moralist atheist cannot possibly be a mu?min.
As long as we are defining an atheist as someone who does not put faith in the existence of The Creator Who created and sustains them perpetually, and are not certain about the meeting of the Hereafter (the Last Day) nor did they put faith in the Messengers and what they were sent with, then they cannot absolutely be a those who put faith/ trust in Allah.
It is contradicting to the very definition of mum?min.
You are welcome to re-read through my earlier posts and see the ayaats cited about atheists.Please Read these
4523-26
Have you seen (he) who takes (as) his god his desire and Allah lets him go astray knowingly, and sets a sealing upon his hearing and his heart and puts over his vision a veil? Then who will guide him after Allah? Then will not you receive admonition?
And they say, "Not it (is) but our life (of) the world, we die and we live, and not destroys us except the time." And not for them of that any knowledge; not, they (do) but guess.
And when are recited to them Our Verses clear, not is their argument except that they say, "Bring our forefathers if you are truthful."
Say, "Allah gives you life, then causes you to die; then He will gather you to (the) Day (of) the Resurrection, no doubt about it." But most (of) the people (do) not know.4531-32
But as for those who disbelieved, "Then were not My Verses recited to you but you were proud and you became a people criminals?"
And when it was said, "Indeed (the) Promise (of) Allah (is) true and the Hour - (there is) no doubt about it, you said, "Not we know what the Hour (is). Not we think except an assumption, and not we (are) convinced.Atheists just as above do not expect to be resurrected and believe time is responsible for their death.
They are not convinced/ certain about the Last Day (the Hour) and only guess.
It is a perfect description of atheism and agnosticism.Remember as I have shown in my previous post from ayaats related those who disbelieve in the return to Allah are guilty of associating partners, hence mushrikeen (polytheists). Therefore ?atheists? is not even a proper term.
1836-42
And not I think the Hour will occur. And if I am bought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this (as) a return."
Said to him his companion while he was talking to him, "Do you disbelieve in created you from dust then from a minute quantity of then fashioned you (into) a man?
But as for me, He (is) Allah, my Lord, and not I associate with my Lord anyone.
And why (did you) not, when you entered your garden say, "What Allah wills; (there is) no power except with Allah." If you see me lesser than you (in) wealth and children,
It may be that my Lord will give me better than your garden and will send upon it a calamity from the sky, then it will become ground slippery,
Or will become, its water, sunken, so never you will be able to find it."
And were surrounded his fruits, so he began twisting his hands over what he (had) spent on it, while it (had) collapsed on its trellises, and he said, ?Oh! I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone.?It is a bit alarming that you are convinced these are believers. Believers and polytheists(atheists) are not the same.
4521 Do think those who commit evil deeds that We will make them like those who believed and did righteous deeds equal (in) their life and their death? Evil is what they judge!
To be frank I have included in my responses a lot of citations from Quran, while you have your ?unconventional? reasoning as main support. I am always trying to direct and invite only to the study of the Quran through humility and prayer, and you ahem overlooked many of the citations in my previous post bro.
Let us be fair and truly discuss. Please be honest and thoughtful and seek guidance from Allah in your response.
Let us supplicate Allah like the boys in the cave for Allah to dispose of our affairs in the right way.
Regards,
Herman -
Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat
4613-14
- Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
- Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.
This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.
One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.
Would you be perhaps in support of such a claim?
That would be ridiculous, right?
Yet you make the same claim about 262.
If you claim that 262 is a minimum condition because of what it lists then by the same deductive reasoning 4613-14 supersedes 262 as the most minimal condition. It is even a shorter requirement which grants equally exemption from grief and fear and admission to abide in Paradise forever.I hope you see the flaw in your reasoning Arman.
Obviously we cannot claim that what we find in one single ayaat clearly illustrates everything pertaining a specific topic. We have to take in consideration the entire Book and all the relevant ayaats and topics.
We know that there is no such concept as minimum condition. All of what Allah calls us to believe in and obey is in fact necessary and you will find it repeated in many places. The punishment is prescribed for those who deny the Verses, Signs of our Lord, therefore, you cannot exclude putting faith in the Signs of our Lord from necessary conditions.Furthermore Read this Arman,
4629-32
- And when We directed to you a party of jinn, listening to the Quran. And when they attended it, they said, ?Listen quietly.? And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners.
- They said, ?O our people! Indeed, we have heard a Book revealed after Musa confirming what was before it, guiding to the truth and a Straight Path.
- O our people! Respond to the one who invites to Allah and believe in him. He will forgive for you your sins and protect you from a painful punishment.
- And whoever does not respond to the one who calls to Allah, then he cannot escape on the earth, and he will have no protectors besides Him. Those are in clear error.?
We are supposed to respond to the one who invites to Allah (our Messengers) and believe in them and as a consequence Allah will forgive our sins and protect us from a punishment painful and one who does not respond to the caller of Allah has no escape.
This further annuls your claim that the minimum conditions are only putting faith in Allah, the Last Day and acting righteously.
Again you must take into consideration all the ayaats that relate, which are far too many to cite but all contain various ?conditions? as you would presume. This means that all of what you would presume as conditions are actually necessary.Hear me out Arman,
ALL of them need to be considered together. One cannot arbitrarily just pick one ayaat and make that the minimal condition for salvation.Other than that one could arbitrarily pick 4613 and still be by your reasoning correct, while we know in logic that to claim such as a minimum condition would be absurd.
Furthermore there is no indication in The Book about any minimum condition concepts. -
- Do you not consider those who dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from the reality)?
- Those who deny the Book and that with which We sent Our Messengers; but soon they will know.
- When the iron collars will be around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged,
- In the boiling water; then in the Fire they will be burned.
- Then it will be said to them, ?Where is that which you used to associate (with Him in worship)
- Other than Allah?? They will say, ?They have departed from us. Nay! We did not call upon anything before.? Thus Allah lets the disbelievers go astray.
- (It will be said to them), ?That was because you used to rejoice on the earth without right and you used to behave insolently.
- Enter the gates of Hell to abide forever in it, and wretched is the abode of the arrogant.?
Arman do you still think one can deny the Book and the Messengers and be a mu'min?
At this point I believe the OP has been fully answered and the claim refuted by massive evidence. -
Peace HP_TECH.
I do see a fair bit of improvement from your earlier attacking tone, so perhaps it makes sense to engage in this discourse once more.
The Minimum Criteria (262)
The bulk of your above posts are centered around refuting my idea that the verse 262 delineates the minimum criteria for salvation. For convenience let us recap the relevant verses
262 Indeed, those who have placed faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.
... ... ...
4123 By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside God.
4124 And whoever acts out of righteousness ? among male or female ? and is faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.
... ... ...
569 Indeed, those who had faith, and those ? who became hudan or the sabian or the nasara, ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? then they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
From these verse I am deriving that the minimum / necessary condition for salvation are - i) faith in Allah, ii) faith in last day and iii) Righteous action.
You are challenging me that This "minimum / necessary condition" is my innovation - it is not mentioned in the above verses. My answer to that is - the very statement Whoever does X will get Y. - means that doing X is the minimum / necessary condition for getting Y. Consider these comparable statements "whoever gets 33 in the exam passes the exam" - implies that getting 33 is the minimum / necessary condition for passing the exam. Also, "whoever presents a valid ticket rides the train" - means presenting a valid ticket is the minimum / necessary condition for riding the train.
Now let's look at some other points that you are highlighting
Furthermore, how can you arbitrarily decide that putting faith in Allah does not convey putting faith in His Words and by default His Messengers.
It is a bit unfair for you to separate those from i).
One can argue that when it comes to ii) if one puts faith in the Last day by default they are acknowledging The Books which warn about it, and the Messengers who warn about it.
iii) Same argument is permissible for acting righteously, one acts righteously by acknowledging EVERYTHING authorized by Allah.I agree that having faith in Allah is inseparable from having faith in the messenger - but that is ONLY AS LONG AS the messenger is duly recognized as such. Since we recognize Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah it is our obligation to have faith in the message brought by the messenger (i.e. Qur'an). But for someone who barely knows about Muhammad or Qur'an we cannot say the same. And that is where 262 or 4123-124 becomes so powerful. If Allah wanted to mean whoever does not put faith in Qur'an / the books / the messengers will burn in hell - He could have said that. BUT HE CHOSE NOT TO. And Our Master never runs out of words.
You have presented another interesting point in your next post - which shows that you are thinking. You must be credited for your effort here
Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat
4613-14
- Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
- Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.
This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.
One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.
Now if we look back to your conclusion from comparing 262 with 4613-14 it seems that you are trying to imply that the verses of Qur'an say inconsistent things so we should not take each verse at its face value. I am absolutely opposed to this approach or conclusion. To me if Qur'an is supposed to be the Words of God - and I am convinced it is - each statement of this book must make perfect sense on standalone basis as well as aggregate basis. So, instead of concluding that we should not try to understand standalone verses I would try to reconcile what these two verses are saying and then derive the conclusion that makes each statement sync with the other.
The first point of difference between 262 / 4124 / 569 vs. 4613-14 is that in 262 / 4124 / 569 the subject is the conditional noun "man" (whoever) - which is the critical word to indicate that it is a conditional statement; whoever does X, gets Y - the X is presented as the minimum condition for getting Y. BUT, in 4613 the subject is masculine plural relative pronoun alladhina (those).. which does not imply that it is the minimum condition. Again an example to illustrate the point
"Indeed, those who got first division passed the exam, those who got second or third division passed the exam - whoever got 33% mark passed the exam."
Look how the word "whoever" sets the 33% as the minimum requirement.Still one may argue whether the people mentioned in 4613-14 are meeting the 3 minimum requirements that we derived from 262
- faith in Allah - which I interpret as acceptance of our responsibility to Allah
- faith in last day- which I interpret as acceptance of our accountability to Allah
- righteous action
Now, with this note let us again look at 4613-14 and put it in the context of minimum requirements as set out in 262. Per your translation
- Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
- Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.
The extremely important point here is the phrase "remain firm". What does it mean to remain firm? The next verse has one clue - they are rewarded for what they do (a'mal) not only for their declaration. So, "remaining firm" on the claim of Allah being our Lord / Master (condition 1) itself includes righteous behavior (condition 3) that would result from accepting our accountability to Allah (condition 2). Thus the three minimum conditions are implicitly present in these verses as well.
The two cases
Case 1
You are saying the verse implies something like "It literally does not matter if you yell in a deaf person?s ear because they will not hear." That is exactly what I am trying to say. If we take the word kafir to mean disbeliever - it does not add up. Anyone who is a disbeliever is not necessarily blind or deaf - they can be simply uninformed or misinformed. Today they disbelieve because of not considering all arguments, but tomorrow they may believe when more convincing arguments or signs are presented. Rather those who are actively engaged in "Repressing their faith" - i.e. - suppressing their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong they are the ones who are deaf and blind. They are fixed headed about not accepting responsibility - so they will not be convinced with warning or explanation or signs. Thus the usage of the word "ka-fa-ra" in this verse goes to demonstrate that "disbelieve" is a oversimplified translation.
Also consider this if kur was a matter of disbelief the verse would have said "It does not matter if you explain to them or not explain to them, they won't believe". But rather the verse says, "It does not matter whether you warn them or not warn them, they won't put faith." - It is a matter of WARNING not explaining because Kufr-iman is not a matter of believing - it is a matter of accepting or rejecting responsibility.
The same can actually be demonstrated using verse 234 where iblis has been claimed to be amongst the kafir. Does it make sense that after failing to comply with God's instruction iblis started to disbelieve? No. Rather he became amongst the ones who - suppressed their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong or repressed their faith in God - or in other words failed to acknowledge obedience of God as an inviolable obligation. And that is all I am trying to convey Faith (iman) and Repression (kufr) are not merely believing or disbelieving in certain propositions - Faith (iman) is our acceptance of our responsibility to Allah and Kufr is the active repression of our inherent inclination of doing so.
Case 2
You again got fixed upon 2100 referring to God's covenant, while in my last post I have already accepted your argument that this verse which talks about "whenever they make a covenant" can be taken to imply God's covenant - that is not the point here. The point is even if it covenant with God, it does not make sense that by breaching such covenant they become "disbeliever".
Back to the OP
- Do you not consider those who dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from the reality)?
- Those who deny the Book and that with which We sent Our Messengers; but soon they will know.
- When the iron collars will be around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged,
- In the boiling water; then in the Fire they will be burned.
- Then it will be said to them, ?Where is that which you used to associate (with Him in worship)
- Other than Allah?? They will say, ?They have departed from us. Nay! We did not call upon anything before.? Thus Allah lets the disbelievers go astray.
- (It will be said to them), ?That was because you used to rejoice on the earth without right and you used to behave insolently.
- Enter the gates of Hell to abide forever in it, and wretched is the abode of the arrogant.?
Arman do you still think one can deny the Book and the Messengers and be a mu'min?
At this point I believe the OP has been fully answered and the claim refuted by massive evidence.I acknowledge and appreciate your sharing of the verses of Qur'an highlighting the ill fate of those who reject the signs of Allah, those who reject the messenger and so on. I do believe and agree that those who seek the path of division and corruption rejecting our obligation to our common source of existence and rejecting the teaching of the messenger are the society of fire - they will be in it for ever. My OP was not about them. My OP is about the people who are faithful to their obligation towards our common source of existence by acting righteously to others - but as a matter of intellectual journey have not made sense of the nature of that " common source of existence" in the same manner as the people of the book do. I continue to believe Our Master can guide them among the righteous and we are not entitled to pursue enmity against them.
... ... ...
This is the third time I am explaining the arguments above and apparently there are still irreconcilable differences between your and my understanding. I believe I have made my case with sufficient arguments and you have also demonstrated your way of thinking which bars you from accepting my arguments. So, at this stage we should really leave this out for the readers to decide who is grounded on logic and who is grounded on delusion.
But I find it worthwhile to discuss a little bit on the root cause why there are such differences between your and my understanding. I believe that is because my approach to Qur'an is totally different from your approach.
My approach
My recognition of my Master does not begin from the Qur'an or the teaching of the messenger. My recognition of my Master comes from my observation of who I am and where I stand in relation to the universe. I recognize my Master by observing my own conscious mind - which I know cannot be a creation of accidental arrangement of matters. I recognize the handiwork of the Supreme Authority who has framed the heaven and earth in absolute mercy with absolute wisdom and in absolute justice.
I have seen that my Master's Mercy and active interest is NOT limited to any specific religion or sect - His mercy encompasses everyone. Even the child which is born today in the Chinese family who never heard of Prophet Muhammad or Qur'an is brought up with the same loving care of God that a "Muslim" child receives from its parents. The same sun gives heat to all, the same water meets their thirst. Each is endowed with the same faculty of freewill to think and chose their course of action - whether they should be humble and grateful for the gift of life and thereby act righteously towards all the fellow creatures OR whether they would be arrogant and live in a selfish world.
I have also seen that the nations which have performed more righteously, have acted upon higher ethical standards and effectively curbed corruption have indeed been blessed by our Master with a more equitable and livable society, whereas those nations who indulge in corruption and oppression end up in Jahannam in this very world - and this happens irrespective of religious affiliation of the nations.
So, this how I have found my Master - the One featuring Absolute Authority, Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice. I do not dare to claim I understand my Master, I simply acknowledge I accept His authority and thereby I accept the responsibility that I should act righteously to all of His creations.
When I approach Qur'an, I seek the wisdom from my Master in it - and to the extent I find reflection of my Master in this book - I accept the "best" understanding from it. Whatever interpretation or understanding is devoid of logic or out of touch with the sense of right and wrong that my Master has endowed me has to go away and I keep searching for the understanding that makes perfect sense in light of my Master's absolute Mercy and absolute Justice. When I read with this set of mind I see that "the fraternity of the book" are a fortunate section of mankind who have access to higher wisdom through the messengers and books - but they are by no way meant to be the only salvaged group. Rather they have, by virtue of their fortune, a stricter test of making the best use of their knowledge. The community of the last messenger, in particular, is supposed to be brought for the benefit of mankind - not to rule over them or force entire mankind to convert into their own.
And thus I strive to take the most accommodating understanding from Qur'an with utter humility (which you interpret as foolishness).
Your approach (apparently)
You seem to have started from the notion that Allah is a deity who created the humans to play some sort of game with them. He sent His messenger to some people with His book in specific language, to make things more interesting He flooded the earth with numerous false / outdated messengers, and He left out the vast majority of the others out in the cold with a big challenge of finding the right messenger and right book to follow. Those who end up finding the right messenger and book will be salvaged - the rest go to hell. Whatever you read in the Qur'an you end up fitting it into your notion that only the people who accept Qur'an are God's favored people and the rest are doomed.
You appear to be convinced that you have already hit the jackpot by finding the right book and the right messenger - so you have already become victorious over the rest of the world full of fools. This sense of victory gives you a unique confidence (which I interpret as arrogance) that enables you to consume all the benefits of science and yet show your middle finger to collective progress of human scientific endeavor by living in your flat earth of fantasy. It gives you enough confidence to promote hatred and enmity with everyone who does not agree with your religious ideas - including even those who strive to live peaceful and righteous life - thereby promoting the path of conflict, division and suffering - and still you consider yourself guided.
The bad news is as long as our approaches are so fundamentally different we are definitely not going to agree on our understanding of Qur'an. The best we can try to do is to pray to Allah together to eventually guide us to the straight way. The good news is - in the end to the same Master is our return. Then He will judge between us - what in it that we were differing.
Until then, for you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Regards,
Arman