Personal Identity and the Soul
-
We live in this earthly body, and after the body dies we depart. This Body has influence on the soul
and vice versa. It is the actor or the means of realizing our earthly physical and psychological needs
real or imagined and the are two intertwined and connected.The soul's journey begins in the womb then childhood then moves to young adulthood then adulthood
then to maturity then old age then death and finally to the hereafter. Some are cut short by Allah's leave
(may Allah guide us to paradise). IMHO."They ask you concerning the Ruh. Say 'It is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only
with my Lord. And of knowledge, you have been given very little."peace
Let us be clear as to what we are talking about You, Hawk, seem to be peaking about the ruh, but all the time those writing in thi thread have been seakig about the nafs, or the soul and have een taking the nafs as the soul. So now
Which one are you taking as the soul, the naf or the ruh or nnonne of them and then what do you undertand by soul, by nafs an by ruh?
Salaam
-
Here is an aya
7.57.
And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded.So "we bring forth the dead".
Wht is brought forth?
What those who say that the "body" and the "soul" are two separate units uphold is that what is dead is the body and the the soul has not died, somehow it has been liberated from the body. So what is brought forth here as well as in other ayas of the same import?
The body must be brought fourth if what they say is true. Bu if the body is brought forth, then it was not left behind forever as something that had forever fulfilled its funcion.
So what is brought forth?
Also proof from the Qur'an that the soul of each person existed before that person was conceived.
Another aya
7.25.
He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."Again what is it that will be brought forth?
Another aya
4.66.
And if We had decreed upon them, "Kill (uqtulu) yourselves (anfusakum)" or "Leave your homes," they would not have done it, except for a few of them. But if they had done what they were instructed, it would have been better for them and a firmer position.So what do they have to "uqtulu"?
Frankly, as I go along I see more and more questionable the existence of two separate things like body and soulfrom te qura'nic point of view. Of course, for our own use we speak of ourselves as if we are mde of different things, like the mind the emotions the limbs the organs the feelings, the passions but they are us, it is not some assemblage that the pieces could be dismounted.
Salaam
Salaam
-
According to the quran and my understanding of it, is that we were one soul, a unity, "waiting" for bodies to reside in.
This means in my view that every soul is in principle equal, because we are extracted from 1 soul and not from 2 different souls, that is because Allah is Just.
And because Allah is merciful He inspired the soul the direction to follow (huda Allah), this means He inspired the soul what is good and what is bad and that is what we will be judged of when we return to Him.Well of course this is how I see it at the moment, any correction or better understandings or different understandings or ideas or whatever are more then welcome.
Seeing the ayas wich exlplin that in context I cannot see by any means that nafs here is what you call a soul. It is one kind of creature of which there were no sexes, from that unit it creates two distinct, each sex. That is visible even now in the bodies of each sex there are traits of the oher sex but atrophied and ineffective for reproductive purposes. That I think is truth for all mammals.
Salaam
-
I find this verse intriguing
3942So we get a very clear pointer. But take a mentally ill person. You could say God has taken his or her judgement. Will it go back to the mentally ill personn or will it be kept from him or her till death?
This just to show that nafs even in this aya does not need to be something separate or excisionable from the person.
If we go back to snakes, when they hibernate where do their lives go?
Is life separate from the person fromthe body or the mind?
Thar faous "soul", do we get from te Qur'an any hint that when death comes the soul continues on her own before God "yakhruyuna" takes us forth from our death?
We know that thoe who die for God's sake are not death. So may be God takes them forth jus as they die...
As to dimensions... That is the question. We in this life are only capable of living in three dimensions. The fourth is already a lot of troubl for us. Matter is nothing but our inability to see beyond three dimensions, whereas beings in "higher" levels would be those who can perceive more dimensions.
In that sense, what would our bodies be if we become able to perceive more dimensions. Is not death that transition and therfore no mattr how in three dimensions our body might be destroyed perceiving other dimensions might make us see it and live it in a way that we are not able to conceive in our present limitation?
Salaam
-
Peace huruf here I am talking about the soul
We live in this earthly body, and after the body dies we depart. This Body has influence on the soul
and vice versa. It is the actor or the means of realizing our earthly physical and psychological needs
real or imagined and the are two intertwined and connected.The soul's journey begins in the womb then childhood then moves to young adulthood then adulthood
then to maturity then old age then death and finally to the hereafter. Some are cut short by Allah's leave
(may Allah guide us to paradise). IMHO.We know that those who die for God's sake are not death. So may be God takes them forth jus as they die...
True, but as far as we can see their earthly bodies remain behind.
Could you or members give your understanding of 8/50, 6/93 and 79/1-79/3, 32/11? If not it's ok.
peace
-
True, but as far as we can see their earthly bodies remain behind.
peace
That is right, "as far as we can see", but that really is not seeing much, and there are bodie that are destroyed, burned, for instance, again as far as we can see
But then, again, inthose so numerous ayas where God takes us out (yukhriju) again what is it that He takes out?And those ayas where he says He revives, what is it that He revives?
Could you or members give your understanding of 8/50, 6/93 and 79/1-79/3? If not it's ok.
8.50
Which arabic wordin he original do you say mean soul, because the usual translatio of soul as nafs cannot be since in the original there is no nafs, nor ruh, there are faces, no nufus or ruh.6.93 Here there is indeed the word anfusakum, which is usually tranlated by "yourselves" like when it is said uqutulu anfosakum, here it is the same it says agrijy anfosakum, "get yourelves out" Or if you prefer to stick to the souls, take your souls out. But then why choose to translate sometimes as yourselve and then when the "soul" urge cmes choose to translate takeout your souls. ?
In 79/1-79/3 there are no nafs at all, they are insertions made by the translators so I really can0t see where any shoul could come from.
Salaam
-
Here is an aya
7.57.
And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded.So "we bring forth the dead".
Wht is brought forth?
Hi,
Like I said the problem with bringing the quran to things we have no knowledge of is a bit difficult because we all have different understandings.
Anyway this is how I read the verse.It is not the dead (thus dead people), but that what is dead.
In this case death land, when it gets water, it brings forth every kind of sort. The last part says (of course imo), "In this way We bring forth what is dead."What those who say that the "body" and the "soul" are two separate units uphold is that what is dead is the body and the the soul has not died, somehow it has been liberated from the body. So what is brought forth here as well as in other ayas of the same import?
RED I never said that. How should I know such thing? Maybe some souls live on and maybe some souls die with the body. I have of course a theory based on my understanding of the quran.
Also proof from the Qur'an that the soul of each person existed before that person was conceived.
Another aya
7.25.
He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."Again what is it that will be brought forth?
RED Actually if I had to prove it with my understanding of the quran then I would have give you probably 725 as evidence
To who is Allah is here talking? Isn't it Adam? What shape does Adam have (thus from what is created?) and were was he, were is he send to?
Another aya
4.66.
And if We had decreed upon them, "Kill (uqtulu) yourselves (anfusakum)" or "Leave your homes," they would not have done it, except for a few of them. But if they had done what they were instructed, it would have been better for them and a firmer position.So what do they have to "uqtulu"?
I do not believe uqtul means kill, see 254. Allah never commands to kill ourself.
Anyway my theory is that here on earth a soul can not live without a body. -
Peace Mister hawk99,
Good post. I agree with your views.
"They ask you concerning the Ruh. Say 'It is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only
with my Lord. And of knowledge, you have been given very little."Thanks for sharing this verse.
-
6.93 Here there is indeed the word anfusakum, which is usually translated by "yourselves" like when it is
said uqutulu anfosakum, here it is the same it says agrijy anfosakum, "get yourselves out" Or if you prefer
to stick to the souls, take your souls out. But then why choose to translate sometimes as yourselves and
then when the "soul" urge comes choose to translate take out your souls?Salaam
So we are left with 6/93, thank you for your work. Is the ayat correct in its translation/understanding?
contextually the ayats mentioned together I would say the soul is removed at death and returned to the body
in the hereafter.I have no definitive answers only as bender states my own personal conclusions, the subject
at hand is not what determines righteousness but only speculation which must be stated as such.But then, again, in those so numerous ayas where God takes us out (yukhriju) again what is it that He
takes out? And those ayas where he says He revives, what is it that He revives?I would speculate that the angels take out the soul, and the reviving is from a death state no matter
the condition of the corpse (even if the bodies are destroyed, burned etc.,)
This is only part of my personal analysis of the context of the ayats on the subject.Peace Mister hawk99,
Good post. I agree with your views.
Thanks for sharing this verse.
You are welcome
I'd like to have members facts/speculation and input What is the ruh? How is it different from the nafs?
peace
-
I wuld like to come back again as to which word, those who speak about the soul being one of two different entities of each person, which word do they assume to be the "soul" in the Qur'an.
I can0t remember whether it was Pazuzu or omebody else who said that the ruh is the ability blown ito the bashar to become ahuman being capable of evolution as insaan, that is from mere hominid to human.
That is the species the same, not an entity for each person but the ruh from God for each personn to evolve. That is not an entitity but a potential.
As to the soul being an entity distinct and the body being a distinct entity, like a body and a garment which can exist indepedent of each other and till eing the same unit, I do not see inn the Qur'an any support.
When it uses anfus+pronoun meaning ourselves or yourselves, what I get is that it refers to the self consciousness or self consciece of existing as such individuals, so what would be lost at death and thenn regained whe God brings us back after death is that sense of self.
When people here understand that God or the angels take the "souls", do they mean that that is it they ar already in their new exitence? Or does the new exitence begin when God brings us back as per the ayas I have mentionned in the previous messafes ad many others, which are too fre1uent to quote? What happens when we sleep and God takes the nafs? What didi happen to the group o the cave?
I do not see that the nature of human beingns, which is to evolve should be interrupted with death.It is like hibernation for those animals that undego it. They stop living consciously, but it is not the end just a stage in exitence, when God takes us out again, yawm al qiyama we recover conscience again and we do nnot know how log we have been "out" of ourselves, but we continue on the next stage of our destiny which is the returnn to God, this time in paradise or hell, a new stage.
So what are we? We are what we become and keep on becoming.
That is as far as I can get with the "material" given by the Qur'an.
I find no support whatsoever to count on a "soul" that exists by itself independent of the person and separate from the person.
Salaam
-
Pazuzu or omebody else who said that the ruh is the ability blown ito the bashar to become ahuman being capable of evolution as insaan, that is from mere hominid to human.
Yes it was Pazuzu. About the ruuh is pure conjecture on my part but i think it's very likely that the ruuh is something that gives us the ability to discern right from wrong and act on either path.
The confusion among some...well most people except perhaps you and myself apparently spans the matter of the "soul"/nafs ah "living on" after bodily death.
The Quran does not support this. Infact the Quran spells out that the nafs is put to death, which simply means that it - you, I or whoever else ceases to exist. Nafs is more of a pointer to an individual from bashar - insaan and its experience of a reality - in our case it is this world reality through a body. That does not mean the body is this separate thing..no, it is part of the nafs. One does not exist without the other.
I am again descending into the murky waters of conjecture here (i do dislike it) but it maybe that the ruuh and the body make up the nafs. While the body is alive, it has access to the ruuh, once it dies, that is the end of experience and existence...in summary, the nafs is dead.
-untill the time God revives it (this isnt conjecture, because in the Quran, resurrection...and being raised from the grave supplemented by verses like God being able to restore the very finger tips of every human is a central and a repetitive theme and article of faith - which quite clearly suggests bodily resurrection).
That doesnt imply that the nafs is separate from the body, the body is part of the nafs, it is the "nafs" that is put to death which includes your body and all individual conciousness/personality and experience.
Bearing all that in mind, if you believe the revelations in the Quran
from your perspective of course, its as if you never die, because while dead you have no recollection, no experience and sense of passing time or processing of any reality. That does not mean that the "nafs lives on" in a technical and hard logical sense. The nafs is only alive while God has given it life (in our case with the human body and its senses), and it is a limited life with the nafs expiring at a determined time.There maybe exceptions other than the martyrs not being "dead" (i have some ideas but i wont go into that for obvious reasons - even greater conjecture) that we simply know nothing about and probably wont know in our lifetimes. But normally all nafs/of us die and cease to exist till God resurrects.
-
I am again descending into the murky waters of conjecture here (i do dislike it) but it maybe that the ruuh and the body make up the nafs. While the body is alive, it has access to the ruuh, once it dies, that is the end of experience and existence...in summary, the nafs is dead.
-untill the time God revives it (this isnt conjecture, because in the Quran, resurrection...and being raised from the grave supplemented by verses like God being able to restore the very finger tips of every human is a central and a repetitive theme and article of faith - which quite clearly suggests bodily resurrection).
That doesnt imply that the nafs is separate from the body, the body is part of the nafs, it is the "nafs" that is put to death which includes your body and all individual conciousness/personality and experience.
Bearing all that in mind, if you believe the revelations in the Quran
from your perspective of course, its as if you never die, because while dead you have no recollection, no experience and sense of passing time or processing of any reality. That does not mean that the "nafs lives on" in a technical and hard logical sense. The nafs is only alive while God has given it life (in our case with the human body and its senses), and it is a limited life with the nafs expiring at a determined time.There maybe exceptions other than the martyrs not being "dead" (i have some ideas but i wont go into that for obvious reasons - even greater conjecture) that we simply know nothing about and probably wont know in our lifetimes. But normally all nafs/of us die and cease to exist till God resurrects.
So when we are all resurrected before God in bodily form, then what? Will our bodies then exist eternally in either of the places He has ordained for us? Trying to understand your thinking here.
Peace. )
-
Hi,
If I lose my legs in an accident I will have like 50% (I have giant legs) body left but I think I will still have 100% nafs.
oh and my legs will have 0% nafs
You can laugh and joke all you want on this, but you have missed the point entirely. The point is that you are "alive". Whether you have 1 limb or half a limb. And as long as you are alive, you are alive through a body.
-
So when we are all resurrected before God in bodily form, then what? Will our bodies then exist eternally in either of the places He has ordained for us? Trying to understand your thinking here.
Peace. )
Refer to the Quran. It's not clear in what form we'll be resurrected, but the hints point toward the same earthly body. And yes, the Quran does suggest that the next life is eternal (in either of the two resting places mentioned).
-
Refer to the Quran. It's not clear in what form we'll be resurrected, but the hints point toward the same earthly body. And yes, the Quran does suggest that the next life is eternal (in either of the two resting places mentioned).
I thought you would say this but I wanted to make sure. Thanks. I'll look into it more.
-
Only God is eternal, neither paradise no hell are eternaland the Qur'an says it repeatedly, our destiny is to God, the eternal, after death presumbly, since nohing is eternal but God we will cotinue to evolve in every sense. We do not know how our bodies will be after, we only know what we are told of paradise and the fire, but life will continue till we do devolve to God. We are not eternal but our evolution will continue till we devolve to God.
About the legs, I wouldn't worry, surely God knows how to give us anything He gave us to start with and even things He did not give us before if He wans to give us then. He speaks again and again and uses the simil of the plants and the barren earth and then how it revives. Just to show that we may ot know how to do it but He des, just as He did know how to do it for the first time.
Salaam
-
You can laugh and joke all you want on this, but you have missed the point entirely. The point is that you are "alive". Whether you have 1 limb or half a limb. And as long as you are alive, you are alive through a body.
Hi,
The only joke was about my legs the rest was serious.
RED That is what I am also saying. Here on this earth a soul can only live through a body. Thus I do not believe people who say they can talk with dead people.
The example is only to show that our body is not our soul, they are 2 different things. -
Just to share
In images, I see the situation like this... be it sensible or outrageous.
We are souls who need to go through a worldly life, perhaps for test/growth/redemption.
God pairs a soul with a body as a perfect match, that we are born into. Our souls need the misery our bodies come with (temper, DNA, heritage, looks, capacities, weaknesses... and this includes that od the brain aswell=IQ, social skills, scholarly aptitude etc etc).
Therefore, our parents are matched for us.
Of course, this is hard to accept as there is much horrendous things that happen to children, but hey, I don't claim my theory/idea to be perfect or complete. However, I do believe there is MUCH more purpose to things that happen than we tend to be willing to accept.Peace