Can we have concensus?

Armanaziz

When a people choose their traditions and practices of their parents over their God-gifted sense of right and wrong, they deserve to be deviated. They earn this deviation by engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war.

I think the above statement is what Recluse has been repeatedly saying is unfair. How much do people really chose? If I try to assume more about your response based on "engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war", I could assume you may categorize these people by how much harm (or peace) their actions result in.

Thanks Comrox.

I am not talking about people deserving deviation because of their religion / tradition. It is not the birth of a person to a religion that is to be held against the person - but his/her blind following of tradition especially when such following goes against his/her God-gifted sense of right and wrong. And this applies to people of all religions equally.

Being born of a Hindu family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But burning widows alive in the name of tradition is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Buddhist family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Rohingyas in the name of Budhdhist solidarity is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Christian family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But practicing white supremacy ideology (like the KKK) in the name of Jesus is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Jewish family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Palestinians in the name of Zionism is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Sunni family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But harboring hostility against the Shias (and vice versa) and people of other religion in general in the name of Islam is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Bender

At the end of the day, you're thinking God is some kinda Sherlock and so am I.

Hi,

Not totally sure what you meant.

Anyway my position is that He knows every outcome of every action/matter there is.
And because I believe He gave us a free will (thus no algorithm in us), He can not know what I will do next year because me myself have not even thought about it thus it's not a matter yet which He can know.
With other words if you plug in me a supercomputer which is "almighty" and it analyses all the data in me, then this computer can never know what I will do tomorrow. Because there is no information in me now, except the trivial things (I will breathe, eat, sleep, etc tomorrow), which will give this computer data to know what I will do tomorrow.
If this supercomputer is able to predict exactly every action of me what I will do tomorrow then it means, that it can not only predict tomorrow, but also predict exactly what I do next year and what my grand grand grand children wil do, this thus means that we do not have a free will but are puppets who were doomed to hell or heaven at the moment He said "Be" and I do not believe in this as this goes against my believe and I do also not see a single verse in the quran where such thing is claimed. In fact all verses about this subject in the quran look like to support my view (ofcourse my understanding of it).

We don't have endless choices )I think you're using endless as a way of saying many, alright.

No not really, I meant endless like infinite.
You have $1000000 and I have $100. You have more choices then me what to do with your million but I still have like you infinite choices what to do with my $100.
But we both are restricted to the amount of money we have.

What's the true translation?

imo it should be something like this "He knows what is within their reach/might and what is outside them"

Bender

God is not as omnipotent and almighty as He claims?

Peace all. peace

Hi,

What do you think, can God win a game of tic tac toe against me?
Some information about me before you answer to quickly or misjudge me, I am the best tic tac toe player in the world.
Since I found the not loosing strategy, I never lost to anyone.

So what do you think? I am actually also interested in the answers of other members if they like to answer.

hawk99

Peace bender, you have a very interesting point of view.
Are you saying that Allah does not know the future?

Bender

Peace bender, you have a very interesting point of view.
Are you saying that Allah does not know the future?

Hi,

First of all I believe the future does not exists. Only the now exists.
What you see now and what is now, that is what is.
We are developing in what He creates and He did not create tomorrow yet, what is now that is His creation.
So speaking in terms of future or time does not make sense.
The destination of a lot of things however is determined, but we humans are not of those who have been predestinated, we have our own "future" in our own hands.
If we have it in our hands as the quran and my own feeling suggests then He can not know my "future" unless He decides that I will be one of the predestinated, and doing this last thing is as easy for Him as giving me my own "future" in my own hands.

So in short, He is able to know the "future", He has might over it, but He willed that we will evolve on our own but restricted by His laws.

hawk99

First of all I believe the future does not exists. Only the now exists.

ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?

What you see now and what is now, that is what is.

I agree

We are developing in what He creates and He did not create tomorrow yet, what is now that is His creation.
So speaking in terms of future or time does not make sense.

ok, any support from Quran on this?

The destination of a lot of things however is determined, but we humans are not of those who have been predestinated, we have our own "future" in our own hands.
If we have it in our hands as the quran and my own feeling suggests then He can not know my "future" unless He decides that I will be one of the predestinated, and doing this last thing is as easy for Him as giving me my own "future" in my own hands.

So in short, He is able to know the "future", He has might over it, but He willed that we will evolve on our own but restricted by His laws.

Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm

peace

Bender

ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?

Hi,

They mean that we trust Allah that His word is true.
We calculate "time" by the movement of things which are predestinated, because we trust that Allah will not change His laws/word.

ok, any support from Quran on this?

Not really. But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.

Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm

peace

That is not the correct formulation, because He knows all things.
Whatever you do/think/whatever, He knows.
But what you have not done/thought/whatever, He does not know that, as He left it in your hands, you are writing your own book and He is "reading" your book while you write it.

The pages of tomorrow are blank in your book till tomorrow then you will write them.
Yes there are some sketches on those blank pages, your plans for tomorrow, and He knows all those sketches, but those are sketches and while tomorrow nears those sketches change and He knows all the changes in your sketches but not what you really going to write there, till the moment of real writing.

I think I am repeating myself now. And do not know how to make my view more clear than I already did.

savage_carrot

What do you think, can God win a game of tic tac toe against me? So what do you think? I am actually also interested in the answers of other members if they like to answer.
I'll bite! I'm more a woman of action so know what, I'm just going to stop at the last move and say nyah nyah, haven't made it yet and keep God on the edge of his seat. How many can do that! Hang on, I guess everyone does until they do (make their moves that is)...not very climatic then. I'm curious though, given your thing about how God knows I'm about to get hungry at xyz hour like Sherlock, wouldn't God know I'd do that? What's the difference then between him actually knowing the future and knowing the...er, future...actually even? laugh

Man_of_Faith

Bender gives the correct account. God/Rabb does not know something that has never happened as the sequence is not yet created. That does not make God/Rabb weak.

Be well
Amenuel

good_logic

Peace All.

I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698

"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?
3134

Yes indeed GOD knows what will happen to each soul tomorrow" Ghaddan"and in which land it dies!!!! Tomorrow already created as far as GOD is concerned.

"Inna AllaH Aleemun Khabir"- GOD Knows everything.

GOD bless.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

If you go against logic you can say that, like I stated many times before.

Someone

Peace all,

We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?

Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.

I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.

Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.

So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.

Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.

Peace

Wilson

We don't know the future but there are plenty of others who do.

For instance, the "malaika" in 230 knew the future.

The God's servant in 1880-81 had knowledge of the future.

Even Iblis knew the future in 717.

The God created time itself and He certainly knows the future.

...neither we nor the "malaika" can create the future. Thus the future can be considered as already created and this is how even Iblis was able to see it.

However, the future is not what you think. Time is not one dimensional. The fact is that we are able to make choices that change the future. Since we don't create the future, we must be only selecting from available futures. This indicates that although we are only aware of one dimension, time is multi-dimensional, thus enabling multiple possible futures.

That's why our choices are described as a path. It is a path on this two-dimensional time sheet. The only good path is the straight path.

An additional time dimension makes it possible for the future to be known and at the same time for us to have free-choice.

For each of us, the future converges onto two possible outcomes. There is a future where we are in heaven and there is a future where we are in hell. Iblis saw that in the majority of possible futures, people will follow him. We know for sure that he couldn't see who exactly will follow him because otherwise he can just sit back and relax instead of making the effort he talked about in 716.

Man_of_Faith

Exactly, no one is saved beforehand, it is a created fate.

Bender

I'm curious though, given your thing about how God knows I'm about to get hungry at xyz hour like Sherlock, wouldn't God know I'd do that?

Know what? I didn't get it.

Bender

Peace All.

I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698

"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?

Hi,

I looked at some translation to understand your point but I can't see it.
What is your translation of this verse that you came to this conclusion.

RED Do you believe this?

3134

Yes indeed GOD knows what will happen to each soul tomorrow" Ghaddan"and in which land it dies!!!! Tomorrow already created as far as GOD is concerned.

"Inna AllaH Aleemun Khabir"- GOD Knows everything.

GOD bless.
Peace.

According to this verse the red part is what Allah knows.
The blue part does not refer to something before it, as far as I can see.

Bender

Peace all,

We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?

Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.

I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.

Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.

So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.

Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.

Peace

Hi,

RED I would have formulated this a bit different but you have explained it very well, thx, totally agree with you handshake

Jafar

Peace all,

We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?

Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.

I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.

Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.

So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.

Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.

Peace

God knows the future... the true God that is..
Past Present Future (time), Here There (space) is not a limitation for the (true) God..
Everything happened in accordance to His will at His appointed time..

As thus.. it's ridiculous to think that the (true) God will ever be

Pissed Off / Angry
Betrayed / disappointed
In conflict with something or somebody / Has enemy

"God does not play dice with the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

Comrox

As thus.. it's ridiculous to think that the (true) God will ever be

Pissed Off / Angry
Betrayed / disappointed
In conflict with something or somebody / Has enemy

But how can we even have these thoughts of God displaying these human emotions in the first place, regardless of what He knows, because God is not anything like us?

good_logic

Peace Bender.

I am a bit confused. You seem to agree with someone,yet say GOD does not know the future?
Someone is saying what Qoran is saying ,Qoran also adds the fact that GOD also knows the exact path/s everyone of us will take/be taking.
GOD knowing of the details is irrelevant as far as choices and decisions of people go.We still are free and independently choose.

For example GOD knew Pharaoh was not going to listen to Moses , despite all the miracles .
How would you explain" You do not will except as GOD wills"?
How do you explain the numerous verses stating that "God guides whomever He wills, and misleads whomever He wills?"

It is based on His knowledge of the future. God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. When God said to the angels, "I know what you do not know" (230) What does it mean?

And what do you think this means?
5722

GOD bless you.
Peace.