Can we have concensus?

hawk99

First of all I believe the future does not exists. Only the now exists.

ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?

What you see now and what is now, that is what is.

I agree

We are developing in what He creates and He did not create tomorrow yet, what is now that is His creation.
So speaking in terms of future or time does not make sense.

ok, any support from Quran on this?

The destination of a lot of things however is determined, but we humans are not of those who have been predestinated, we have our own "future" in our own hands.
If we have it in our hands as the quran and my own feeling suggests then He can not know my "future" unless He decides that I will be one of the predestinated, and doing this last thing is as easy for Him as giving me my own "future" in my own hands.

So in short, He is able to know the "future", He has might over it, but He willed that we will evolve on our own but restricted by His laws.

Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm

peace

Bender

ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?

Hi,

They mean that we trust Allah that His word is true.
We calculate "time" by the movement of things which are predestinated, because we trust that Allah will not change His laws/word.

ok, any support from Quran on this?

Not really. But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.

Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm

peace

That is not the correct formulation, because He knows all things.
Whatever you do/think/whatever, He knows.
But what you have not done/thought/whatever, He does not know that, as He left it in your hands, you are writing your own book and He is "reading" your book while you write it.

The pages of tomorrow are blank in your book till tomorrow then you will write them.
Yes there are some sketches on those blank pages, your plans for tomorrow, and He knows all those sketches, but those are sketches and while tomorrow nears those sketches change and He knows all the changes in your sketches but not what you really going to write there, till the moment of real writing.

I think I am repeating myself now. And do not know how to make my view more clear than I already did.

savage_carrot

What do you think, can God win a game of tic tac toe against me? So what do you think? I am actually also interested in the answers of other members if they like to answer.
I'll bite! I'm more a woman of action so know what, I'm just going to stop at the last move and say nyah nyah, haven't made it yet and keep God on the edge of his seat. How many can do that! Hang on, I guess everyone does until they do (make their moves that is)...not very climatic then. I'm curious though, given your thing about how God knows I'm about to get hungry at xyz hour like Sherlock, wouldn't God know I'd do that? What's the difference then between him actually knowing the future and knowing the...er, future...actually even? laugh

Man_of_Faith

Bender gives the correct account. God/Rabb does not know something that has never happened as the sequence is not yet created. That does not make God/Rabb weak.

Be well
Amenuel

good_logic

Peace All.

I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698

"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?
3134

Yes indeed GOD knows what will happen to each soul tomorrow" Ghaddan"and in which land it dies!!!! Tomorrow already created as far as GOD is concerned.

"Inna AllaH Aleemun Khabir"- GOD Knows everything.

GOD bless.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

If you go against logic you can say that, like I stated many times before.

Someone

Peace all,

We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?

Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.

I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.

Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.

So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.

Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.

Peace

Wilson

We don't know the future but there are plenty of others who do.

For instance, the "malaika" in 230 knew the future.

The God's servant in 1880-81 had knowledge of the future.

Even Iblis knew the future in 717.

The God created time itself and He certainly knows the future.

...neither we nor the "malaika" can create the future. Thus the future can be considered as already created and this is how even Iblis was able to see it.

However, the future is not what you think. Time is not one dimensional. The fact is that we are able to make choices that change the future. Since we don't create the future, we must be only selecting from available futures. This indicates that although we are only aware of one dimension, time is multi-dimensional, thus enabling multiple possible futures.

That's why our choices are described as a path. It is a path on this two-dimensional time sheet. The only good path is the straight path.

An additional time dimension makes it possible for the future to be known and at the same time for us to have free-choice.

For each of us, the future converges onto two possible outcomes. There is a future where we are in heaven and there is a future where we are in hell. Iblis saw that in the majority of possible futures, people will follow him. We know for sure that he couldn't see who exactly will follow him because otherwise he can just sit back and relax instead of making the effort he talked about in 716.

Man_of_Faith

Exactly, no one is saved beforehand, it is a created fate.

Bender

I'm curious though, given your thing about how God knows I'm about to get hungry at xyz hour like Sherlock, wouldn't God know I'd do that?

Know what? I didn't get it.

Bender

Peace All.

I had to get back here when I saw this quote
But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
698

"Mustakarrun" wa "Mustawdaa".... Does this imply that your path and destiny have already been decided by God?
Or let us have your interpretation?

Hi,

I looked at some translation to understand your point but I can't see it.
What is your translation of this verse that you came to this conclusion.

RED Do you believe this?

3134

Yes indeed GOD knows what will happen to each soul tomorrow" Ghaddan"and in which land it dies!!!! Tomorrow already created as far as GOD is concerned.

"Inna AllaH Aleemun Khabir"- GOD Knows everything.

GOD bless.
Peace.

According to this verse the red part is what Allah knows.
The blue part does not refer to something before it, as far as I can see.

Bender

Peace all,

We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?

Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.

I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.

Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.

So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.

Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.

Peace

Hi,

RED I would have formulated this a bit different but you have explained it very well, thx, totally agree with you handshake

Jafar

Peace all,

We seem to agree that the god knows the past and the present of everything and everyone. What about the future ?

Let's suppose a person A at a certain point in time T, have to make a decision choosing between 100 possibilities, thus at T+1, there are 100 possible outcomes.

I think that the god decided to restrict himself and leave a tiny space of free choice to the person A, but he have established the laws beforehand and he knows all the 100 outcomes even before that person A would be aware of his 100 possible choices.

Evenmore, the god knows already what would be the choices available for person A at T+1for all the outcomes from choice at T. And so on, the god knows all the possibilities at T+2,.... T+n.

So, to sum it up, the god knows all the possible "lifes" that a person can live, some of these lifes would take him to paradise, and others would take him to hell. But the choice of which life to live is between the hands of each person, and at any point in time until death, the person is free to switch to this side or the other. And no one is saved beforehand, everyone has to earn his salvation.

Also, If the god wanted to judge and punish people everytime they err, then there would be no one still alive. But, he has decreeded on himself Mercy, and he is postponing the evaluation to a certain time, maybe we will become aware.

Peace

God knows the future... the true God that is..
Past Present Future (time), Here There (space) is not a limitation for the (true) God..
Everything happened in accordance to His will at His appointed time..

As thus.. it's ridiculous to think that the (true) God will ever be

Pissed Off / Angry
Betrayed / disappointed
In conflict with something or somebody / Has enemy

"God does not play dice with the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

Comrox

As thus.. it's ridiculous to think that the (true) God will ever be

Pissed Off / Angry
Betrayed / disappointed
In conflict with something or somebody / Has enemy

But how can we even have these thoughts of God displaying these human emotions in the first place, regardless of what He knows, because God is not anything like us?

good_logic

Peace Bender.

I am a bit confused. You seem to agree with someone,yet say GOD does not know the future?
Someone is saying what Qoran is saying ,Qoran also adds the fact that GOD also knows the exact path/s everyone of us will take/be taking.
GOD knowing of the details is irrelevant as far as choices and decisions of people go.We still are free and independently choose.

For example GOD knew Pharaoh was not going to listen to Moses , despite all the miracles .
How would you explain" You do not will except as GOD wills"?
How do you explain the numerous verses stating that "God guides whomever He wills, and misleads whomever He wills?"

It is based on His knowledge of the future. God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. When God said to the angels, "I know what you do not know" (230) What does it mean?

And what do you think this means?
5722

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Man_of_Faith

Good logic,

That is illogical that God/Rabb knows which way people will take. Then if it was then it would be better for God/Rabb to just take each one of us and either throw us in Hell or Heaven than play this (in that case) stupid puppet show.

Do you not see that senseless nature in your reasoning!!!!???

We are here to prove who we are and if that was settled already then there is no use to have the show on the road.

Be well
Amenuel

good_logic

Peace Man Of Faith.

Then I can only say you do not know the message . You are not here to prove anything to GOD. You are here to redeem yourself.
GOD can create anything any time,of course GOD can create everything good or everything bad.

You are here for you, because you have opted for this life . You made a covenant with your creator to give you "Al Amanata".So GOD has put you here to see for yourself how you do!!!!

Other creatures accepted GOD s will and settled the matter .

GOD already knows. You are here to prove to yourself your destiny.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Armanaziz

Salam brother Bender.

I have been impressed with your understanding and analysis of Qur'an before so this sudden discovery that you believe in human free will independent of God is somewhat shocking to me. Could you please clarify the few points below

Q1 Do you have faith in Qur'an (as we have it with us today) in it's totality (as opposed to believing it is party correct and partly corrupted)?

Q2 Do you believe God knows when each of us will die?

If answer to both of the above is no, I have no farther botheration for you... you can believe whatever you like. But if answer to either of the above questions are yes, I will probably seek some more clarifications... for several things are not adding up.

Brother Someone.. the same questions apply for you.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Arman

P.S. With regards to your Tic-Tac-Toe Challenge ... the very fact the you are raising the question whether God can defeat you in a game is itself telling a ton. Perhaps you are missing the point that you do not exist independent of God.

But yet, let me demonstrate that God can defeat you in a TTT game

Can you make yourself loose a tic-tac-toe game... for example while playing with a kid... just to give the kid something to cheer about? If you can, then know that it is God who is defeating you. Because God is working through you.
Do you believe that your brain can be crippled in a way that you loose all your senses and intelligence? Do you also understand that God has absolute control over every matter in the world including the neurons in your brain? Perhaps you can add these two up?

Bender

God knows the future... the true God that is..
Past Present Future (time), Here There (space) is not a limitation for the (true) God..
Everything happened in accordance to His will at His appointed time..

Hi,

If He (the true God) knows all our futures since the moment He said "be", then why are you so angry at ISIS and Saudi clergy?
It was all according to His will. One can only know something what yet has to happen ONLY if it's predestinated.

"God does not play dice with the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

"Stop telling God what to do with His dice."
-- Niels Bohr

Bender

Peace Bender.

I am a bit confused. You seem to agree with someone,yet say GOD does not know the future?

Hi,

What member someone said is totally different from knowing the future.
I guess you know at least rules of chess.
Lets play a game of chess, I am white, you are black.
Before I make my first move God knows that with perfect play from both of us it will end in a draw.
Then I make my first move say 1 d4.
Now God knows that all the moves you will make will still lead to a draw except if you play 1...h5 then I can force a mate in 139 moves if I play perfect and you play perfect.
You respond indeed with 1...h5. So it's mate in 139 now.
But in order to mate you in 139 moves is to make the only move, which is 2 d5.
But I do not know that and I play 2 Nf3.
Now God knows again that the game is draw again with best play.
But you respond not with the best moves and play 2...a5.
Now God knows I can force mate in 87 moves if I play 3 c4, I can force mate in 93 moves if I play 3 e4 and I can force mate in 103 moves if I play 3 e3, all the other moves lead to a draw.

This is what someone meant, this is different then knowing the future. This is knowing what is.

Someone is saying what Qoran is saying ,Qoran also adds the fact that GOD also knows the exact path/s everyone of us will take/be taking.

RED I can not find such verses.

For example GOD knew Pharaoh was not going to listen to Moses , despite all the miracles .

I already gave you this verse earlier
2038
What is this then al about?

How would you explain" You do not will except as GOD wills"?

Everything you do/will is by permission of God. If He does not grant His permission then you can will as much as you will but it will never happen.

How do you explain the numerous verses stating that "God guides whomever He wills, and misleads whomever He wills?"

I can not explain Gods will, this means I can not say a single thing as WHY God wants something this or that way, that is His will. He knows and I do not, and He has might to will whatever He wants and I do not.

It is based on His knowledge of the future. God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. When God said to the angels, "I know what you do not know" (230) What does it mean?

That He knows what they do not know. Sorry I can not make it clearer than it is stated.

And what do you think this means?
5722

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Something like this Whatever afflicts earth or you is by His command.

peace
Bender