Regarding virgin births and Jesus (and Adam).

jonny_k

At the announcement she was untouched; but this does not mean that she would remain untouched. If you think otherwise then prove it. In Christianity the Catholic church goes to great lengths to preserve the "image" of Mary as a virgin all her life - but there is plenty of evidence in their own sources that Jesus had a brother 'James' - and how did he emerge - another virgin birth? In the Christian tradition Mary does have a husband 'Joseph' and to believe that there was a virgin birth when there is clearly a man is downright naive and delusional. I'm not using these as my arguments - just showing that muslims have been brainwashed into accepting the false view of christians.

Khi- Simply if u look at the Quran y do u think GOD made such special statements in the Quran telling Mary tht she was going 2 have a son without her having touched a man n then tells her tht He ONLY need 2 say be n it is. Wht is the purpose of all this if her birth was just normal. It makes no sense at all. Moreover if she wre 2 marry in order 2 get her son then again her statement 'how shld i have a son when no man has touched me' wldnt make sense. This expression of her shows tht she understood wht GOD meant n she herself cld not understand how this can happen. Obviously Mary knew hoew children r born otherwsie again her statement makes no sense. It takes only simple logic 2 understand this. And then the comparison of Jesus 2 Adam made by GOD. Wht is the use of comparing Jesus 2 Adam if theres nothing special in his birth? U didnt answer these qs of mine.

Consider that God has mentioned the process of a person's creation in 225 and also the method in

7189 He it is Who did create you from a single soul, and therefrom did make his mate that he might take rest in her. And when he covered her she bore a light burden, and she passed (unnoticed) with it, but when it became heavy they cried unto Allah, their Lord, saying If thou givest unto us aright we shall be of the thankful.

Notice that there is a single SOUL, not a human mentioned. God gave consciousness or a 'nafs' to the humans that were on earth by firstly giving it to "Adam"; God then progressively gives this first human with a soul a like partner in order to procreate.

Khi- Im talking abt the creation of the first two humans in pairs as was claimed. How did tht happen? Obviously they had 2 be created from non living material. Then when all was positioned n aligned 2gether came the explosion n it functioned. Similar 2 the Cambrian i suppose which shows tht complex living thigs appeared at once n fully formed.

The male and female thereby produce others to which God gives the soul; but the process of procreation from male and female is clear in that verse.

Peace.

Khi- There was a time when there was no mankind. At tht time obviously man had 2 be created out of non living matter, not from a pair. Tht was the case once the 1st pair was created. GOD Bless!

Idris

peace be upon you,

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1893

WHY JESUS COULD NOT BEEN BORN WITHOUT A FATHER

Allah says this about His Qur'an/Book of Guidance

2185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down The Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, and clear proofs of guidance and the criterion. So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

25.33 And they shall not bring to you any question/argument, but We have brought to you the truth and best explanation.

75.19 Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

Then He says

448 Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.

7.33 Say My Lord has indeed forbidden shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.

2124 Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

17.36 And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.

Allah, continues

51.56 And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.

3185 Every soul shall have a taste of death And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life) For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.

413 Those are limits set by Allah. those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.

Ayat 5156 explains cleary the reason for our existence--to serve Allah, and we serve Him by doing good deeds/practicing righteousness, as detailed in HIS Book of Truth/Light/Clear Proofs--AL-QUR-AN.

The object of life, therefore, is to do good deeds/practice righteousness so that Allah will grant us the Supreme Achievement--Paradise. Allah, gave us Al-Qur-an for our spiritual guidance, growth/development and for the establishing of Islamic jurisprudence, in order that we practice righteousness in this world and by doing so enter Paradise in the next. With this in mnd then, what hasn't Allah hasn't fully explained/detailed, in the best way, in His Qur-an towards that end and, what question/arguement cannot be definitievely answered in Qur'an, toward this end?

The question/areguement before mankind to today is, was Jesus born without having a father/male agency? Ayats 2185, 2573 and 7519 makes it very clear that Allah has addressed and answered this question/arguement in His Qur'an..for those who believe anyway.

Now, before I continue, many people, Muslims especially, mistake extrapolation for Qur'anic critical analysis.

Main Entry EXTRAPOLATE to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area.

Main Entry CRITICALLY exercising or involving careful judgment or judicious evaluation.

Main Entry ANALYZE suggests separating or distinguishing the component parts of something so as to discover its true nature or inner relationships.

As the definition explains, when one extrapolates, one is moving from known data to the explain something to taking unknown data to explain something, leading to a conjectural outcome, but no certain knowledge.

In contrast, when one Qur'anically critically analyzes the known data, one continues to stay with the known data, hence, leading to certain knowledge

Hence, Allah's caveat

1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

Following is the known Qur'anic data concerning human reproduction

164 He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!

1837 His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust, then out of a sperm-drop, then fashioned thee into a man?

225 O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

3511 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah.

3677 Doth not man see that it is We Who created him from sperm? yet behold! he (stands forth) as an open adversary!

It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom.

7537 Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?

762 Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight.

8019 From a sperm-drop He hath created him, and then mouldeth him in due proportions;

961 Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

962 He created man from a clot.---

Main Entry SEMEN/SPERM a viscid whitish fluid of the male reproductive tract consisting of spermatozoa suspended in secretions of accessory glands.

Look at the amount of known data/ayats that Allah devoted to the reproduction of humans. Given that, Jesus was a human being/of man, these ayats prove that Jesus had a father, otherwise, he could not have been conceived as sperm is required--that is the LAW of ALLAH. Allah, designed that humans mate and that is why He created us in pairs and why He cannot have children, because He has no MATE, for there is nothing like unto Him to mate with and produce offspring.

Now, there are those here and else where, who, claim that, Adam and Jesus are alike, in that, Adam had no mother or father. The problem with this conclusion is that it is an extrapolation.Nowhere in Al-Qur'an, not one ayat, has Allah stated that Adam had no mother or father nor did He say Jesus was fatherless, this is nothing but extrapolation, that is, conjecture as the result of not having known data. Once again, in contrast, Allah, has provided an abundance of known data on how every human being comes into existence. Why, then, would any rational human being, especially, so-called Muslims, reject the known data and its answers for the unknown data and its conjectural conclusions? Where is the logic and belief in that ??

1036 But most of them follow nothing but conjecture truly conjecture can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do. AND 6116 Were you to follow the common run/majority of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie.

It is my understanding that, in addition to Allah telling us about how humans reproduce, the other reason for this amount information in regard to this subject, was to provide the definitive arguement against the Great Shirk that---Allah, has a son. This belief, according to Allah, will send untold numbers to Hell. Given the gravity of the Grat Shirk, it behooves Muslims to stop with their obstinancy and superstition that--Jesus, the son of Maryam, had no father.

Main Entry OBSTINATE perversely or tenaciously adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion.

Main Entry SUPERSTITION a belief or practice resulting from ignorance or a false conception of causation a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary.

For those who disagree with the above ayats/analysis, then...

2124 ..."Bring YOUR convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

The Alaq and Anthropos arguements, completely destroy the Great Shirk/Great Superstition that--Allah has a son.

The anthropos arguement is as follows. According to the original Greek manuscripts, from which the many versions of the bible emanate, it only speaks of three natures 1. Theos=God. 2. Pneumatikos=Spirit and 3. Anthropos=man/fully human. There is not name/designation for a dual nature nature, which, the Christians claim just was of. Paul/the bible writes

1Timothy 25 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The word for both men and man, in the Greek is--anthropos--fully human.

Nowhere in the Greek is there a word for a dual nature--nature, hence, the Christians, cannot defend the very core tenet of their belief via their own book--the bible.

So, Alaq--the mingling of sperm and egg to produce a human being and anthropos, meaning fully human, totally destroy the Christian Great Shirk/Great Superstition. As Muslims, lets's not collude in their misbehavior and in anyway be deemed that we support miraculous births or other such superstitious and un-Qur'anic notions.

All praises due to Allah.

Idris

peace be upon you,

read this too, Dhul's response to Sara's questions, I believe Dhul had shut this topic down after reading through his views

***What do you make of the following ayat

She said "My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me?" He said "It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it "Be", and it is." 3-47***

Salaamun Sara

Maryam, is simply being told that she will have a son. There is no time frame attached to this announcement as to when it was to occur. Undoubtedly, she wasn't prepared at that time for such, given that, she wasn't married, hence, her expression of surprise.***

***Also, do you believe the following about Jesus

And a messenger to the Children of Israel "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave, and I heal the blind and the leapers, and give life to the dead by God's leave, and I prophesize for you what you shall eat and what to store in your homes. In that is a sign for you if you are believers." 3-49***

I agree with Nabi that, these are all allegories. For example, Jesus, being a human, could not possibly give life to a corpse, to wit

It is Allah that takes the souls ()of men at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

This ayat, clearly shows that once a soul dies, Allah, keep it with him and does not send it back to this plane of existence, hence, it would have beeen impossible for Jesus to raise a corpse, in that, Allah, doesn't return deceased people to life. Raising the dead , as with the "other thought to be miracles", is simply an allegory. Do you see, Pumpkn?

What do you think of my arguement?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

***I agree that ayat 3942 proves that Jesus raising the dead is an allegory. Thank you for pointing that out. What is your interpretation of the other things that Jesus did in 349? ***

Layth wrote
Do you doubt that Jesus spoke to others from the cradle?

Joe Can the cradle simply not be literally a cradle but a figure of speech representing one's youthfulness to the world, or beginnings?

Layth wrote
Do you doubt that Jesus healed the blind and the lepers?

Joe Can these be people who are heedless of the scripture?

Layth wrote
Do you doubt that Jesus raised the dead?

Joe Can this be inviting of those who are dead spiritually to God's noor?

Layth wrote
Do you doubt that Jesus created a bird from clay?

Joe Can this be setting free the spirits of al-inasa from their shackles?

I think Joe's responses to Layth, are pretty good.

Idris

peace be upon you,

a selection of Parwez's "Islam Challenge To Religion"

IV. Miracles
The subject of miracles bristles with difficulties and yet it challenges the attention of every student of religion. Such a student is called upon to define his attitude towards miracles and to explain his conception of the relation between religion and miracles. Here he faces a dilemma. On the one hand, modern man finds it well-nigh impossible to give credence to miraculous happenings. The only course open to him is to dismiss them as gross superstitions. For the scientist, nature is a closed system and any incursions of the supernatural into it are unthinkable. On the other hand, history testifies to the close association of religion with belief in miracles. The prophets of old were generally credited with the power of working miracles, so much so that a prophet was judged not by the value of his teaching but by the miraculousness of his deeds.
Whatever may be the case with religion, Islam, at least, lends no support to such superstitions. The Qur'an appeals to reason. Its professed aim is to make men rational and clear sighted, not to make them superstitious. The Qur'an directs man's attention to the phenomena of nature and the facts of history, as they reveal the power of God and His wisdom. Man is invited to look at and reflect upon the grandeur of the heavens, the beauty of the earth, the freshness of dawn, the glory of sunset and the terrifying force of the wind as it sweeps over the open spaces of the desert. Pointedly, it asks "Are not these marvellous ? What more do you want ? "The phenomena of nature, at once beautiful and mysterious, can fully gratify man's sense of wonder. However, the people with whom the Nabi of Islam had to deal were steeped in superstition. They were obsessed with the craving for the miraculous. They not only believed that the laws of nature could be violated but regarded such a violation as the only proof that could be offered for the truth of a statement. Instead of scrutinizing the rational grounds of the statement and accepting it if adequate evidence was adduced in its favour, they asked whether the man who made it could work wonders or not. It was not easy to deal with and win over people whose attitude to truth was so irrational. The Nabi did the best that he could in these difficult circumstances. With gentle persuasion he strove to turn their attention from figments of imagination to the concrete facts of life and history. He exhorted them to reflect upon nature and history and make a serious attempt to understand them both. With fervent earnestness be assured them that he did not claim the power to work miracles but that he rested his case on rational arguments and oil the beneficial effects of his teaching. His opponents could not be expected to be satisfied with this simple explanation. They retorted that if he were a true Nabi he would surely have worked miracles; his inability to do so was proof that be had no valid claim to nubuwwah. The accusation was without foundation. If the Nabi had been an imposter, he could easily have worked on their superstitious minds. A single instance will suffice to prove his integrity of character. Soon after the death of his beloved son, there was a solar eclipse. People were frightened by the unusual darkness and they humbly suggested to the Nabi that nature seemed to be convulsed by the shock of his son's death. Without the least hesitation, he assured them that this was a natural phenomenon and had no bearing on his personal affairs. Nature goes on its course unconcerned with the calamities that may befall man. Only a man of his stature could have refused to seize an opportunity of convincing people absolutely that he was a miracle worker and, therefore, a true Nabi. The incident throws ample light on the essential honesty and integrity of the Nabi. No prospect of immediate gain could induce him to come to a compromise with the superstitious unbelievers.
The Nabi was consumed with the passion to reform the people and to induce them to accept the truth which he had placed before them. Their insistent demand that he should work miracles to convince them, made him despondent. On such occasions, the Qur'an counsels him to remain firm and not to give way to despair. Sometimes, he might have thought that if only he possessed the power to work miracles, he could quickly have persuaded the people to accept his teaching and follow the right path. The Qur'an did not leave even such a remote thought unanswered
If their aversion (to the truth) is grievous to thee, then, if thou can, seek a way down into the earth or a ladder into the sky that thou may bring to them a portent (to convince them all). If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance; so be not thou of the ignorant (6 35).
God wants men to see and accept the truth through understanding and not dogmatically and irrationally
Those who do not use their intellect, the matter remains confused to them (10 100).
The Qur'an calls upon men to apply their minds to its teaching, to strive to grasp its meaning and rationale. If they remain unresponsive to call, the Qur'an refuses to stoop to irrational methods of influencing their minds. It would rather leave them to follow the wrong path, if they have chosen it freely, than consent to any kind of compulsion, however well-intentioned, to lead them to the right path. Greatness may be thrust on some but goodness can be thrust on none. All that the Qur'an does is, it sounds the warning, time and again, that if the thought-provoking faculties are suppressed for long, they would ultimately lose their power to kindle the pulse of thought, It says
Those who just go on rejecting the truth (without trying to understand it) it is all one for them whether you warn them (against the, consequences of their actions) or not. They will not accept the truth. (As a result of their obstinacy, the law of Allah) has sealed their hearing and hearts and on their eyes is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom (for they saw not reason) (2 6-7).
Those who possessed reason and did not use it to acquire true knowledge and to gain an understanding of the Revelation are denounced as the vilest of men and contempt is poured on them
And We have struck out for men in this Qur'an all kinds of similitudes (to make the matter clear) but, notwithstanding all this, if you place before them a verse of the Qur'an, those who disbelieve will surely say You are but given to vanity. Thus does Allah seal the hearts of those who do not try to understand (30 58-59).
Again
And We send not Our messengers but as bearers of glad tidings and as warners (to those who tread the wrong path) but those who reject the truth dispute with vain words that they may refute the truth thereby, and they take My Revelation and what they are warned of as a jest. And who does a greater wrong than one who being reminded of the laws of Allah, turns aside from them and forgets what his Hands have sent on before. (This is how Our Law of Retribution) places veils upon their hearts, so they understand not, and a heaviness is in their ears. (The result of their obstinacy is that) though thou call them to the right path, they will never adopt it (18 56-57).
Again and again, in support of itself, the Qur'an directs man's attention to natural phenomena and historical events. It justifies its teachings on verifiable grounds and on historical evidence. The Qur'an assures man that his highest aspirations and ideals are attainable as he lives in a friendly and sympathetic universe, which is controlled by a wise and compassionate power. Miracles are repugnant to the consistently rational spirit of the Qur'an. Those who demand miracles are occasionally humoured but are more often reproved in plain terms.
The view advocated here may, however, be challenged on the ground that the Qur'an recounts many miracles which were wrought by the earlier Anbiya. There are several possible interpretations of these miracles. Some scholars have had recourse to allegorical interpretation. Others have held that the figurative language and vivid imagery served to drive home a general truth. Another plausible theory is that the Qur'an in describing people of an earlier age had to mention the unusual events which had psychological reality for them. However, it is a question which concerns the scholar who is interested in the mental development of man. It has no bearing on din as such. We subscribe to the view that they have been narrated metaphorically and can be interpreted rationally.*
At this point we deem it our duty to put in a word of caution. Events which have been reported in ancient books as "miracles" need not all be dismissed as the unconscious fabrications of credulous people. The mind of man may possess powers which are unsuspected by science. Some present day scientists are not so sceptical as their predecessors were. A new science, parapsychology, has sprung up and for the moment seems to be vigorously active. A few eminent psychologists are working in this field and have already collected evidence and discovered facts in the face of which dogmatic scepticism appears to be as absurd as the credulity of the ancients. Telepathy, clairvoyance, clairaudience and psycho-kinetic phenomena are being experimentally studied. All we can say at present is that the mind may well possess supernormal powers. We are learning the lesson that intellectual arrogance is an obstacle in the search for truth. Whatever may be the outcome of the investigations into the occult, the truly Qur'anic response to the universe will remain unchanged. The question of miracles may enlist the interest of the scientist but it has no vital relation to a quest which has any connection with din. The Qur'an seeks to awaken in man the consciousness of his intimate relation to the universe. Its main emphasis is on reason and knowledge. Its purpose is to help to build up a free, self-reliant and rational personality, vivified with the sense of God's working in the universe according to His unalterable laws. Therefore, miracles, if they mean freaks of nature or any alteration in the immutable laws of God, can have no place in that working.
We close this discussion with the following apt quotation from Iqbal which bears eloquent testimony to his deep insight into and perceptive appreciation of Islam
The birth of Islam . . . . is the birth of inductive intellect. In Islam prophecy reaches its perfection in discovering the need of its own abolition. This involves the keen perception that life cannot for ever be kept in leading strings ; that in order to achieve full self-consciousness man must finally be thrown back on his own resources. The abolition of priesthood and hereditary kingship in Islam, the constant appeal to reason and experience in the Qur'an and the emphasis that it lays on Nature and History as sources of human knowledge, are all different aspects of the same idea of finality.4

truth

Peace Khizar,

Khi- Simply if u look at the Quran y do u think GOD made such special statements in the Quran telling Mary tht she was going 2 have a son without her having touched a man n then tells her tht He ONLY need 2 say be n it is. Wht is the purpose of all this if her birth was just normal. It makes no sense at all. Moreover if she wre 2 marry in order 2 get her son then again her statement 'how shld i have a son when no man has touched me' wldnt make sense. This expression of her shows tht she understood wht GOD meant n she herself cld not understand how this can happen. Obviously Mary knew hoew children r born otherwsie again her statement makes no sense. It takes only simple logic 2 understand this. And then the comparison of Jesus 2 Adam made by GOD. Wht is the use of comparing Jesus 2 Adam if theres nothing special in his birth? U didnt answer these qs of mine.

Now if you compare the announcement to Mary with the announcement to Zachariah - he also expresses incredulity and says "How can I have a son?" in effect. Does it mean that his wife had a virginal birth so that she instantly became pregnant when the announcement came?

No it doesn't. It means that God inspired them to undertake the correct actions in order to achieve a natural fertilisation. Zachariah went into his wife and a baby was conceived. (Remember that a woman may not conceive for a variety of reasons - nutritional deficiency etc are commonly reversible reasons).

The announcement of a baby is therefore not a basis for virginal birth.

Regards.

jonny_k

Salam,
None of the things presented below answers my qs. U didnt address my important qs at all but just evaded them. While i know tht GOD created many from alaq i also know tht GOD can create an alaq by just saying 'Be' which is exactly wht was the case with Jesus GOD said 'Be' n he was. This indicates tht GOD created him directly unlike us. GOD Bless!