Regarding virgin births and Jesus (and Adam).
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Peace Hussein,
The reasons you give while they seem superficially attractive are actually easily shown to be wanting.
Here is an Ayah on why Zachariah did not believe what he heard
340He said "O my Lord! How shall I have son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren?" "Thus," was the answer, "Doth Allah accomplish what He willeth."
Therefore, Zachariah and his wife had many years together and they were near certain that a child will not come by natural means.
The reading does not specify how long the process takes and it is irrelevant to the topic in any case. It may have occurred right after or many years later.
Note that the formulation in 199 and 1921 show that both processes are 'easy' for God - there is a similarity in the creation of both these children.
As for Mary, the people that believe that there was nothing miraculous about the birth have to respond to those observations
1- Whay would it be even mentioned in the Qur'an?
2- If it is just announcing that she is going to have a son through natural means then why should she be surprised as in here347She said "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said "Even so Allah createth what He willeth When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
So the answer to her is that BE and it IS, rather than, Well GOD plans to get you married to someone else, which is the more expected answer.
Why is it the more expected answer? Zachariah is not given an explanation of the "how" either except that it will happen in due course.
The "Be" and it becomes formulation is not exclusive to this event. It is the way that God accomplishes His plan in every sense.
2117 The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
1640 To have anything done, we simply say to it, "Be," and it is.
3- Why would this dialogue occur if she had a man with her when Jesus was born
1927At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought
1928"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"Why would her people accuse her of committing adultery if she had been married already?
Again it would require conjecture to fill in the answers and it is missing the point. Answer the following questions if you are willing...
Why did Mary leave her family then?
Did she spend 9 months in the wilderness by herself while pregnant?
You see there are questions in which your official version falls apart. We don't know the details but this does not a virgin birth make.
4- Then this Ayah
1919He said "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, to give thee the gift of a holy son.
The word AHAB means to give, to give as a gift, to donate. So the message was not that I announce that you will have a son. The message was that I am giving you a son (with the understanding of now)
Look at 195 where Zachariah also asks for a 'gift' or grant, and his wish is accepted. If you look at 1949 Abraham is 'gifted' Isaac and Jacob. Surely this according to your point would mean they were also "virgin births"?
Now just for the sake of discussion, if the version that the traditionalist muslims and many here still believe - a miraculous event did occur then why did not the announcing messenger merely present Mary with the "holy" baby as this "gift" there and then. Why did it have to gestate for 9 months in Mary's uterus and be born?
Surely the... "Be" and it is = miracle theory... would dictate that it could just appear from thin air as a miracle of miracles.
Dear friends, please do not be fooled by the Christian mythology. God's laws are set out, and to believe in these myths and tales is an injustice to the intellect that God has given each of us.
Regards.
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Thanks Truth for your answer,
You said
The "Be" and it becomes formulation is not exclusive to this event. It is the way that God accomplishes His plan in every sense.
2117 The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
1640 To have anything done, we simply say to it, "Be," and it is.
God Doeas what he wants and therefore the virgin birth is possible. The other point to make is That Be and it IS suggest immediacy. Whereas the natural process is a process, that requires a step and then another step and then another step and so Forth. Be and It IS has been mentioned in 6 locations in the Qur'an (may be more). All relate to things that seem unlikely to happen for humans.
Look at 195 where Zachariah also asks for a 'gift' or grant, and his wish is accepted. If you look at 1949 Abraham is 'gifted' Isaac and Jacob. Surely this according to your point would mean they were also "virgin births"?
AHAB means to Gift/to grant. Mary had no man and therefore was granted the baby as a virgin. The others were already married, and therefore were granted the children while married. The granting does not mean Virgin birth, the absence of the partner mean virginity.
Again it would require conjecture to fill in the answers and it is missing the point. Answer the following questions if you are willing...
Why did Mary leave her family then?
Did she spend 9 months in the wilderness by herself while pregnant?
You see there are questions in which your official version falls apart. We don't know the details but this does not a virgin birth make.
GOD does not put anything in the book in Vain. I, like you do not have the answer to the details that you mentioned. However, I feel that the big picture is that the Birth of Jesus was different from other births, and that is why it is mentioned in the book.
Slaam
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
God Doeas what he wants and therefore the virgin birth is possible.
This is a facile argument. What you are saying amounts to something like God can do anything, therefore he can create a round square.
A human virgin birth is contradictory to the system God has set in place in the universe.
The other point to make is That Be and it IS suggest immediacy.
The translation "Be and it IS" is not technically correct. More correct is "Be and it becomes". The initiation is by God, there is no implied immediacy as the creation of the Universe was a "Be" event and that occurred through the natural step by step expansion of the universe.
AHAB means to Gift/to grant. Mary had no man and therefore was granted the baby as a virgin.
Just because a man is not mentioned does not mean they did not exist. Moses' father is not mentioned, nor is Abraham's mother etc.
The others were already married, and therefore were granted the children while married. The granting does not mean Virgin birth, the absence of the partner mean virginity.
The absence of a partner is conjectured - it is not a fact.
Again it would require conjecture to fill in the answers and it is missing the point. Answer the following questions if you are willing...
Why did Mary leave her family then?
Did she spend 9 months in the wilderness by herself while pregnant?
You see there are questions in which your official version falls apart. We don't know the details but this does not a virgin birth make.
GOD does not put anything in the book in Vain. I, like you do not have the answer to the details that you mentioned. However, I feel that the big picture is that the Birth of Jesus was different from other births, and that is why it is mentioned in the book.
In fact by your own point in relation to "gifts", I have shown you how other children are also "gifts" - and therefore instead of making Isa's birth something unique it is shown conclusively to be described just like the others - a gift. Nothing out of the ordinary and no different.
Peace.
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Peace Hassan,
You stated,
The other point to make is That Be and it IS suggest immediacy. Whereas the natural process is a process, that requires a step and then another step and then another step and so Forth.
I disagree. "Be, and it is" indicates the beginning of a natural process, atleast as we can witness trapped in linear time. All of life is created by this command, yet we do not see life forms spontaneously existing.
As God is not bound by time, the moment the decision was made to create life, every soul was created, every tree, every mountain, every planet, every atom was accounted for. But for us, we have to witness these things coming in to fruition.
The news given to Mary was not a spontaneous decision, it was made the moment the decision for life was made. She simply got the news when the "time" was right for her to hear it.
Peace,
Tay -
Thanks Truth for your answer,
You said
The "Be" and it becomes formulation is not exclusive to this event. It is the way that God accomplishes His plan in every sense.
2117 The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
1640 To have anything done, we simply say to it, "Be," and it is.
God Doeas what he wants and therefore the virgin birth is possible. The other point to make is That Be and it IS suggest immediacy. Whereas the natural process is a process, that requires a step and then another step and then another step and so Forth. Be and It IS has been mentioned in 6 locations in the Qur'an (may be more). All relate to things that seem unlikely to happen for humans.
Look at 195 where Zachariah also asks for a 'gift' or grant, and his wish is accepted. If you look at 1949 Abraham is 'gifted' Isaac and Jacob. Surely this according to your point would mean they were also "virgin births"?
AHAB means to Gift/to grant. Mary had no man and therefore was granted the baby as a virgin. The others were already married, and therefore were granted the children while married. The granting does not mean Virgin birth, the absence of the partner mean virginity.
Again it would require conjecture to fill in the answers and it is missing the point. Answer the following questions if you are willing...
Why did Mary leave her family then?
Did she spend 9 months in the wilderness by herself while pregnant?
You see there are questions in which your official version falls apart. We don't know the details but this does not a virgin birth make.
GOD does not put anything in the book in Vain. I, like you do not have the answer to the details that you mentioned. However, I feel that the big picture is that the Birth of Jesus was different from other births, and that is why it is mentioned in the book.
Slaam
Hussein
Khi- Salam. I totally agree with u on this pt. GOD Bless!
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Salam,
I have been raised a sunni & after being repeatedly exposed to"free minds" & "aidid safar" I begin to wonder whether I am on the right track.
I now am quite doubtful of the Sunni's practices & at the same time fear the wrath of the Quran.
I am so confused & in a dilemma.
Did anyone of you out there feel the same way? -
Salaam all,
Tay wrote
I disagree. "Be, and it is" indicates the beginning of a natural process, atleast as we can witness trapped in linear time. All of life is created by this command, yet we do not see life forms spontaneously existing.
This is an example of Be and it is
2260When Abraham said "Show me, Lord, how You will raise the dead, " He replied "Have you no faith?" He said "Yes, but just to reassure my heart." Allah said, "Take four birds, draw them to you, and cut their bodies to pieces. Scatter them over the mountain-tops, then call them back. They will come swiftly to you. Know that Allah is Mighty, Wise."It happened right away and was witnessed by Abraham
salaam
Hussein
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I disagree. "Be, and it is" indicates the beginning of a natural process, atleast as we can witness trapped in linear time. All of life is created by this command, yet we do not see life forms spontaneously existing.
Khi- This is totally false n shows u never heard of the Camrian explosion which resulted in the spontangeous generations of perfectly n complex formed living beings without any evolutinary ancestors. GOD Bless!
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Peace Idmkhizar,
This is totally false n shows u never heard of the Camrian explosion
Why the attitude, bro?
How about asking a question rather than assuming I don't know the answer. Are you here to flaunt or are you here to exchange ideas?Yes, I have heard of the Cambrian explosion. But I'm honestly surprised that you accept the fossil record of the Cambrian period, yet reject the fossil record of evolution. Perhaps we only except the evidence that fits our beliefs?
Nevertheless, the latest evidence points to an evolution preceeding the the Cambrian period.
Here's a snippet
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_Explosion
radiation of animal phyla started much earlier, from about 570 MYA, 30 million years before the beginning of the Cambrian geologic period. In 1994, triploblastic animals (organisms with more than two layers, and who therefore rely on internal organs and systems for their cells' supplies of food and waste disposal), were discovered preserved as phosphatized embryos in rocks from southern China . These fossils were estimated to be 570 million years of age and thus were even older than the Ediacaran fauna found in strata about 10 million years younger.Peace,
Tay -
Peace Hussein,
Thanks for the example.
Do you feel that every act of existence is a spontaneous decision by God? Every breath, every life, every death, every sunrise and sunset, are all these things being decided upon each moment, or are all things running for a term decreed? Or is the answer somewhere in between?
Peace,
Tay -
Why the attitude, bro?
How about asking a question rather than assuming I don't know the answer. Are you here to flaunt or are you here to exchange ideas?Khi- Sorry bro. I get carried away when ppl dont see the fraulous, absurd n disastrous deceit presented by evolutionists. (
Yes, I have heard of the Cambrian explosion. But I'm honestly surprised that you accept the fossil record of the Cambrian period, yet reject the fossil record of evolution. Perhaps we only except the evidence that fits our beliefs?
Khi- Thts coz the evoluitonists presented too many forgeries n fake fossils. The Cambrian is accpepted by Creationists n evolutionists alike.
Nevertheless, the latest evidence points to an evolution preceeding the the Cambrian period.
Here's a snippet
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_Explosion
radiation of animal phyla started much earlier, from about 570 MYA, 30 million years before the beginning of the Cambrian geologic period. In 1994, triploblastic animals (organisms with more than two layers, and who therefore rely on internal organs and systems for their cells' supplies of food and waste disposal), were discovered preserved as phosphatized embryos in rocks from southern China . These fossils were estimated to be 570 million years of age and thus were even older than the Ediacaran fauna found in strata about 10 million years younger.Peace,
TayKhi- Despite this the fact remains tht even evolutionists admit tht the species resulting from the Cambrian explosion were as if they were just planted there without any evolutionary ancestors. Tht was my main pt. 4 a thorough rebuttal on evolution plz visit
www.trueorigin.org
GOD Bless! -
Salaam Tay,
you said
Do you feel that every act of existence is a spontaneous decision by God? Every breath, every life, every death, every sunrise and sunset, are all these things being decided upon each moment, or are all things running for a term decreed? Or is the answer somewhere in between?
Thanks Tay for the question. I do believe that most acts of existence occur with GOD's knowledge and that GOD wills them to happen through the laws of nature that he implemented.
However, I do believe that when GOD talks about the birth of Jesus, it is something that he willed and Did outside of the natural laws. So was the Adam story.
I do not believe that the creation of Adam contradicts the evolution theory. I think that creation and evolution can coexist somehow.
salaam all
Hussein
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Salam,
I have been raised a sunni & after being repeatedly exposed to"free minds" & "aidid safar" I begin to wonder whether I am on the right track.
I now am quite doubtful of the Sunni's practices & at the same time fear the wrath of the Quran.
I am so confused & in a dilemma.
Did anyone of you out there feel the same way?Dear Sheena,
I'm certain everyone here has a similar story. Firstly, don't despair - God is merciful and you are very fortunate for being led to Him alone. You will feel a great weight lifted from you when you discard the wrong and fabricated things in sunnism.
Do not fear the "wrath of the Quran" - just fear God - but also listen to Him and do not let fear obstruct you from His path.
Just believe in God alone and put your trust in Him to guide you. Don't be confused. Be patient and pray for guidance and your understanding will always grow.
Use your own intellect as the Quran instructs you to 1736 - and do not despair ever.
Keep it up, I'm sure you will be fine.
Regards.
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I disagree. "Be, and it is" indicates the beginning of a natural process, atleast as we can witness trapped in linear time. All of life is created by this command, yet we do not see life forms spontaneously existing.
Khi- This is totally false n shows u never heard of the Camrian explosion which resulted in the spontangeous generations of perfectly n complex formed living beings without any evolutinary ancestors. GOD Bless!
Dear Khizar,
To believe the explanations as being 100% correct and immutable is a sign of gullibility.
There are other reasons why a sudden explosion of fossils may be seen. For example the conditions for fossilization are quite unique - the conditions may not have existed at other times in history though there may have been a similar biomass.
I mean if these creatures are mainly sea/water based and there is an increase in the level of sea water leading to more inland migration of these animals remains then they will be deposited SUDDENLY as waters recede for example.
There may have been a large tsunami that deposited a large amount of dead animals onto land when there was none there before.
Don't be naive. The events these people try to explain were not witnessed by them. They are theories only and occurred over millions of years. Please do not present these things as immutable facts and as reasons to support your apparent arrogance in this matter.
Regards.
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Peace Hussein,
Thanks Tay for the question.
You're welcome.
I do believe that most acts of existence occur with GOD's knowledge and that GOD wills them to happen through the laws of nature that he implemented.
This is where it gets tricky. I wasn't asking whether or not things happen by the will of God, nor do they happen through the laws of God, but whether all things that happen are running for a term decreed.
However, I do believe that when GOD talks about the birth of Jesus, it is something that he willed and Did outside of the natural laws. So was the Adam story.
I have no problem with your beliefs. All I ask is why? Why did God have to break His own Laws in order to create Jesus or Adam? Jesus would still be Jesus if he was born in the conventional manner. Adam would still be Adam if he was a homo sapien sapien blessed with consciousness.
I do not believe that the creation of Adam contradicts the evolution theory. I think that creation and evolution can coexist somehow.
I think it depends on how you explain the creation of Adam. If Adam was not evolved, then why is our DNA so similar to that of an ape? If he was straight outta Heaven, then human DNA should have no similarities whatsoever. Do you agree?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace IdmKhizar,
Sorry bro. I get carried away when ppl dont see the fraulous, absurd n disastrous deceit presented by evolutionists.
So now I'm lumped in with the people who don't see the fraudulous, absurd, and disastrous deceit?
Here's how it is, bro. I use my mind and put together the pieces the best I can with the little time I have. I don't subcribe to any school of thought outside of free-thinking.
Thts coz the evoluitonists presented too many forgeries n fake fossils. The Cambrian is accpepted by Creationists n evolutionists alike.
Are you suggesting that Creationists have always been truthful?
Despite this the fact remains tht even evolutionists admit tht the species resulting from the Cambrian explosion were as if they were just planted there without any evolutionary ancestors.
Let me get this straight. Evidence has emerged that the Cambrian "explosion" was not really an explosion at all, more likely an evolution, yet despite this, evolutionists admit that the species resulting from the Cambrian explosion "were as if they were just planted there without any evolutionary ancestors"?
No offense, but I find that hard to believe. Do you have any references of scientists who accept the pre-Cambrian evidence, yet deny it's implications?
Peace,
Tay -
Salaam Tay,
Thanks for your polite responses. I appreciate them
but whether all things that happen are running for a term decreed.
I am not very clear as to what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate?
All I ask is why? Why did God have to break His own Laws in order to create Jesus or Adam? Jesus would still be Jesus if he was born in the conventional manner. Adam would still be Adam if he was a homo sapien sapien blessed with consciousness.
I cannot think of the answer. Not knowing the answer does not mean that this did not happen. This Ayah comes to mind
230Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
The angels did ask why, and they got the answer.
All that I am saying is that I was not convinced by the evidence that was presented by Truth and You as to the birth of Jesus, from a linguistic sense. I also do not have a problem that the Qur'an does not adhere strictly to our scientific knowledge, which is anyway, incomplete.If he was straight outta Heaven, then human DNA should have no similarities whatsoever. Do you agree?
I don't agree with your theory. Despite the similarities in the DNA, there are significant differences. Can evolution explain those significant differences? I don't think that science answered this question yet.
Another question If you believe in the evolution theory completely, then should not you believe that the way man became "blessed with consciousness" is through evolution as well? and not as the Qur'an said.
Salaam and have a good night
Hussein
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Peace Hussein,
Thanks for your polite responses. I appreciate them
Likewise )
I am not very clear as to what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate?
My apologies. Upon further review of your original reply, I see you already answered my question. oops
I cannot think of the answer. Not knowing the answer does not mean that this did not happen.
I agree. But shouldn't we try to make some rational connection between what we read and what we end up believing? If you disagree, that's fine, really. Each person's path is lit with different hues, I feel. But in the spirit of debate and analysis, I think there has to be a better answer than "because God said so". I'm not implying that this will be your answer, only that I've heard this response before when a debate gets down to the nitty gritty.
Again, we're asked to verify information before accepting it. It is the means of verification that seperates the individuals, I suppose. So if your answer is "I hold my beliefs because that is my understanding of what I read in the Qur'an, and that's good enough for me", then that's good enough for me too. But if there's a trace of doubt, i think it should be explored without fear of asking "why". Afterall, the Truth survives all scrutiny. It is falsehood that disentegrates.
All that I am saying is that I was not convinced by the evidence that was presented by Truth and You as to the birth of Jesus, from a linguistic sense.
OK.
Let's look at 359 again
The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
What is this example?
The example is, God created him from dust, then said to him "Be".
Interestingly, look at what 3020 states3020 And among His Signs it is that He created you out of dust - and then, behold, you become human beings ranging widely.
So Jesus, and Adam, and all of mankind were created the same way. Do you disagree? Don't you think if this alleged immaculate conception occurred, God would have considered it a sign for us? Yet no where in the Qur'an does it ever state that Jesus did not have a father.
I also do not have a problem that the Qur'an does not adhere strictly to our scientific knowledge, which is anyway, incomplete.
Nor do I. But I do think consistency is important.
I don't agree with your theory. Despite the similarities in the DNA, there are significant differences.
That's fine. But please offer an alternative explanation as to why our DNA is so similar to that of an ape? Do you consider this as part of the test? I mean, we're given brains, and we're given the pieces of the puzzle that have taken countless hours and lives to unlock, and then we unlock it, and find similarities between ourselves and many portions of life, only to have to disregard all of this? It doesn't make sense, bro.
I don't think that science answered this question yet.
Not completely, but pretty close.
If you believe in the evolution theory completely...
I do not believe in the evolution theory completely. The theory in mainstream science is driven by atheism, or naturalism. Science does not leave the door open for the existence of God. But it does dig up some invaluable information along the way.
should not you believe that the way man became "blessed with consciousness" is through evolution as well? and not as the Qur'an said.
The Qur'an says all of life comes from water, and that we were created from dust. This is eerily similar to the theory of the primordial soup(dust+water). I also cannot ignore the leap into consciousness made approximately 50-75 thousand years ago. Before that time, there were no cave paintings, no evidence of burials, of trade, of any communication relative to modern man. Something happened that triggered a leap from animal to man. Perhaps the biped became advanced enough at this time to be worthy of the blessing of consciousness.
I've wondered what the Angels were referring to in 230, when they said
?Will you place on it such creation as will cause disorder therein and shed blood!"From where did they get this idea if not from an animalistic being already existing?
In short, I believe that the existing, evolved man recieved consciousness 50-75 thousand years ago. Whether consciousness was literally blown into the body or evolved as such is not important, I feel. Either way, it came from God.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaam Tay,
The example is, God created him from dust, then said to him "Be".
Interestingly, look at what 3020 statesYes you will find this in several ayaat relating to mankind, us in particular. You will also find it mentioned in the hadeeth of the two men in the garden .
Joe